Manual to DSG swap

[Berto]

Hello,
I'm investigating for a possible manual gearbox swap to DSG

(my left knee lately isn't very well, and my car it's practically new but has several years the value dropped and the option should be exactly the same car but with DSG)

Anybody has seen any swap of this type? links? something..

I'm starting researching about this to find if it's viable, I can get electrical diagrams and I have some experience doing "things" to the car

One of the important doubts I have it's if any TFSI ECU correctly coded can communicate with any DSG ECU.. also I have more doubts but I'm researching and also will ask here, now I would like find previous experiences

Thanks in advance!

[El Dobro]

I'm surprised you haven't had any offers. Most problem DSG owners want to to the exact opposite.

[Berto]

why? the DSG isn't "boring" like the old torque converter based automatic transmissions...

I'm in Spain, in the other side of the sea... so would be a little dificult..
but is somebody wants to send me a DSG from a TFSI quattro (like TT-S)... maybe I can send the manual quattro 6sp box

[VWRedux]

why?

Are you kidding? Haven't you been reading this Forum correctly?

[Berto]

I haven't read this subforum extensively, as I haven't a DSG and I've just thought about this swap..

many defective DSG? (I saw some threads about problems)
but in my country isn't usual see a DSG failure.. ¿?
even some taxi drivers have Passat DSG and other cars with it

not enought to handle high stage mods?

[El Dobro]

My DSG clunks, bangs and jolts. There are some here that have sold, will not buy another VW with a DSG or will not buy another VW due to the DSG. It's a hit or miss that you'll get a good transmission. MY'06 DSG ran like a charm, my '09 is a joke.

[VWRedux]

I haven't read this subforum extensively, as I haven't a DSG and I've just thought about this swap..

many defective DSG? (I saw some threads about problems)
but in my country isn't usual see a DSG failure.. ¿?
even some taxi drivers have Passat DSG and other cars with it

not enought to handle high stage mods?

Italia? There are issues in Europe, Asia, Australia, etc. The press isn't as interested as they are here.

[VaGPuncher]

i've been contemplating for a while now to get rid of the DSG on my wifes car..i have no problems with it but just enjoy driving a manual more..

[milan187]

Ok this guy is not asking you guys if he should do it or not but if anyone has done it. I have not seen anyone due the swap yet but would probably cost a time and parts and messing with electronics that it may be more worth to trade your car for the DSG.

BTW maybe I am lucky but my DSG has been beautiful so far. Sometimes its a little notchy grabbing first but it really does not bother me.

[10Ten]

if you do an open search on vortex for 'DSG swap' you'll get quite a few hits. but you'll also not find a thread with an actual swap to DSG outlined.

in all my research for the opposite swap (DSG --> 6MT), i found many mentions of a swap to DSG, but no actual swaps. i'm not sure if it's been done or not. but i did find some info.

among gearheads and technical dubbers, it is generally agreed that:

1. any swap to DSG would be prohibitively expensive and complicated.
2. the parts alone will cost you alot, but the labor will be so extensive that it is a far wiser move to sell your car and replace with another.
3. you will basically need a 'donor car' outfitted with a DSG and all the controllers and brains -- from the same model year -- transplanted to your car. your car must be able to run off the other car's computer.
4. swapping the other direction (DSG --> MT) will be much easier if you have a donor car. but even that is theoretical since i don't know anyone who has actually done it. for mkV R32's it has been suggested that a mk1 TT 3.2 can donate its 6MT and related bits.
5. now, that doesn't sound like something you really want to do, does it?

i know two VW techs in town who have more than 30 years of pro experience between them. each one of these guys have a DSG unit ready to go, and they want to use it in high performance cars, but they have no way to control the units, so they are still sitting on the shelf. there are many other unknowns about a project such as this, such as if software coding intervention is required, and on what level, and who would be able to skillfully deal with it if that comes up once the parts are physically installed. i haven't even found someone with extensive knowledge of how the computers and electronics are integrated between the DSG and the rest of the car's electronics and computers.

if you really want to do it, and you have the skills or have someone on hand who does, then prepare to take your car off the road for months and pay so much cash that you'll wonder what you were thinking.

but i'm not discouraging you, believe it or not. i'd love to see any real life swap happen with notes on the forum. but i'm just suggesting that it may be far from a realistic undertaking.

[GTM libra]

Hello,

I am in the final stage of swapping a manual gearbox for a DSG. Obviously it can be done in your case, since your car came with a DSG as an option. So it should be possible. If the factory can do it, you can, providing you have the patience and the skills. The question is indeed what you exactly need, and what modules have to be recoded to what settings. The latter can be found out by comparing a car like yours but equipped with a DSG. The former can be found out by studying parts cataloges.

So, it will require patience and a lot of time. But impossible? No, I do not believe that.

Also, I do believe / accept that many people have problems with the DSG Gearbox. Possibly part of the problems are caused by expectations that the DSG is like an automatic gearbox. I find it remarkable that the majority of the complaints comes from the USA, where an automatic gearbox is way more common and popular than in Europe.
Final remark: when you look for experiences with a product on the internet, you will always find remarks of people that have problems or do not like it. The people that do like or enjoy their product are not likely to write something about their experience, because they take it for granted that the product does what they expect it to do. There is one exception: Apple products.

I am running a 1.8 20VT outside a VAG car. I fitted a DSG box to it and it seems to be working. Currently waiting for somebody to make me a set of drive shafts. When these are finished I can test the result of 21 months of work. I have not proven anything yet, but to me it looks good.


Bye,

Bertram

www.gtmlibra.nl

[Berto]

one step ahead

(it's flashing because I haven't the gear selector, the only error stored in the DSG)

after some research, and finally came the wires.. this weekend connected the DSG to the car, it can read data from the car (engine rpm in the measure blocks, brake pressed, etc..) and write in the FIS,
but... the engine ECU doesn't like it! and still I can't change coding for DSG

Sunday,15,May,2011,17:18:04:04214
VCDS Version: Beta 11.2.0
                Address 01: Engine       Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 8P0 907 115 H    HW: 8P0 907 115 B
  Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI     0050
           Software Coding: 01030003180F0160
            Work Shop Code: WSC 06314 000 00000
                      VCID: xxxxxxxxxxxx
1 Fault Found:
049922 - Software Incompatibility with Transmission Control Module 
               U0302 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100001
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 4
                    Mileage: xxxxx km
                    Time Indication: 0
             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    Load: 0.0 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 41.0°C
                    Temperature: 33.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 910.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 11.938 V
Readiness: 0110 0101

now... what to do? I tried the login mentioned above.. but I forgot trying code to 0, but reading about that, I'm affraid
asked few weeks ago to the chip tuner and talked about a possible ECU swap, but I have no details....


GTMlibra, looks interesting that you matched a DSG box with a 1.8T engine! I didn't readed your post until now, I opened other thread and forgot this until I had to search the other, and found this also...
the problem it's the S3 TFSI pre-facelift didn't exist with DSG, only manual gearbox, despite the fact the standard FWD TFSI had manual or DSG options, and the same engine ECU, looks like my ECU has all fixed (even I can't deactivate the bit of haldex AWD) and I only can change minor options like activate cruise control..

how goes your project?

[GTM libra]

Berto,

I am almost ready to do a first testdrive with my car. I hope to receive the custom made drive shafts for the car tomorrow. Then it is just a question of connecting it all up and see what happens. I do also get some faults, but not the one you have:

Monday,14,March,2011,21:41:28:17185
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.3
Data version: 20101206



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                Address 01: Engine       Labels: Redir Fail!
Control Module Part Number: 8N0 906 018 H
  Component and/or Version: 1.8L R4/5VT         0004
           Software Coding: 10710
            Work Shop Code: WSC 79667  
           Additional Info: TRUZZZ8NZ11012534     AUZ5Z0Y8062322
                      VCID: 3668C0BE38C1
6 Faults Found:

18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30: Voltage too Low 
        P1602 - 35-10 -  -  - Intermittent
18020 - Engine Control Module Incorrectly Coded 
        P1612 - 35-00 -  - 
18057 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from ABS Controller 
        P1649 - 35-00 -  - 
18058 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from Instrument Cluster 
        P1650 - 35-00 -  - 
17931 - Crash Signal from Airbag Controller: Implausible Signal 
        P1523 - 35-00 -  - 
17834 - EVAP Purge Valve (N80): Open Circuit 
        P1426 - 35-00 -  - 

Readiness: 0110 0101

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                Address 02: Auto Trans       Labels: 02E-300-0xx.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 02E 300 043 C    HW: 02E 927 770 AE
  Component and/or Version: GSG DSG         070 1111
           Software Coding: 0000020
            Work Shop Code: WSC 01279 785 00200
                      VCID: 142C5A364EFD
5 Faults Found:

18259 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from ABS Controller 
            P1851 - 000 -  - 
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Time Indication: 0

18270 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from Instrument Cluster 
            P1862 - 000 -  - 
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Time Indication: 0

01208 - Data Records in Control Unit Altered 
            000 -  - 
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Reset counter: 0
                    Time Indication: 0

18097 - Powertrain Data Bus: Implausible Message from Elect. Load Controller 
            P1689 - 000 -  - 
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Time Indication: 0

18288 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from Diagnostic Gateway 
            P1880 - 000 -  - 
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Time Indication: 0

18020 worries me the most, but I am not too concerned. 01208 is another one I do not really understand. What I do know is that my box does respond to signals from the gear change lever; when I select reverse the output flanges (remember, no driveshafts as of yet) rotate in reverse. When in Drive they rotate forward, etc. Also, when I activate the brake the gear stick lock is released when in Park. I found this remarkable, because this means that the ECU which is indeed receiving a signal when the brake is activated apparently translates the activation of the brake into a CAN bus signal which is again picked up by the gear stick controller.

More news in a week or so...


Bye,


Bertram

[Berto]

18020 worries me the most, but I am not too concerned. 01208 is another one I do not really understand. What I do know is that my box does respond to signals from the gear change lever; when I select reverse the output flanges (remember, no driveshafts as of yet) rotate in reverse. When in Drive they rotate forward, etc. Also, when I activate the brake the gear stick lock is released when in Park. I found this remarkable, because this means that the ECU which is indeed receiving a signal when the brake is activated apparently translates the activation of the brake into a CAN bus signal which is again picked up by the gear stick controller.

More news in a week or so...


Bye,


Bertram

yes, you get information from can-bus because when I connected my DSG, at begining was not well connected the can-bus, and only communicated by K-line, measure blocks doesn't reflect action of brakes and throwed errors of missing powertrain data bus

why you have the missing data from instrument cluster? I suppose you are using an instrument cluster xxx920xxx to have canbus gateway, as I remember in 1.8T models was there..

I don't remember how it's made the 1.8T coding, what's wrong in the coding? no Auto transmission allowed? or other problem?

[Berto]

I can't imagine what is the 1208 error :S
and load controller?.. from what donnor came the dsg? one with energy regeneration?

[GTM libra]

The missing data from instrument cluster is because I do not have an (Audi) instrument cluster :-) I use only the engine and the ECU, nothing else. Also, I do not have a can bus gateway. I think I don't need it, since I only use the powertrain databus. I cannot find information how to code the ECU for DSG. I have found something on obenodb.org, but not what I was looking for (how to code the ECU for DSG....)

I think the electrical load controller is a controller which calculates the power demand from the altenator and transfers that into load data. I assume this controller takes care of the revs not dropping when you switch a few big electric power consumers on?

I do not have that controller, so therefore no (or implausible) signal. The box is from a Golf 5 GTI.

Back to work with the driveshafts now...

Bye,

Bertram

[Berto]

The missing data from instrument cluster is because I do not have an (Audi) instrument cluster :-) I use only the engine and the ECU, nothing else. Also, I do not have a can bus gateway. I think I don't need it, since I only use the powertrain databus. I cannot find information how to code the ECU for DSG. I have found something on obenodb.org, but not what I was looking for (how to code the ECU for DSG....)

I think the electrical load controller is a controller which calculates the power demand from the altenator and transfers that into load data. I assume this controller takes care of the revs not dropping when you switch a few big electric power consumers on?

I do not have that controller, so therefore no (or implausible) signal. The box is from a Golf 5 GTI.

Back to work with the driveshafts now...

Bye,

Bertram

how goes your project?

if comes from a Golf V simply it's information from the engine ECU wich maybe it's missing in the 1.8T

about coding.. have you looked in the labels of 1.8T engines of VCDS? I haven't here to look, but maybe it's there

I've a question, I haven't the gear selector yet, and I would like if it's OK the parking lever of the box, my box looks that have like 3 positions, which it's the parking position?
I moved the shafts and they aren't locked, or at least I didn't moved much to reach the lock.. really I didn't tested well that
lock it's selector lever towards the front of the car? the middle or torards the driver? (I assume you also have the DSG at the left of the car looking from the driver's position and still it's transversal)

[GTM libra]

Hi,

Well, i think i can say that i've sussed it. I drove the car the other day. I did not test manual changes yet, bit in automatic it seems to work.

What do you exactly mean by looking in the label files? Do you suggset i can find the right setting there?

The gear stick is an important part in the whole system. It sends signals to the gearbox to change between neutral, drive, reverse etc. You already knew that obviously. The park position is the most forward position on the stick, translating into the most rearward position of the leaver of the box. The lever has a lot of free travel to compensate fir the movement of the stick.


Bye,

Bertram

[Jaxone]

Bertram , you DO NEED the Can Gateway.
Without the CAN gateway all the CAN noises will go in all the places and you will have lotsa noise on the CAN protocol.
Also the transmission type (manual or DSG) it is coded in the engine ECU :
C00,Engine Control Unit (J248/J623) Coding
C01,00?0xxx: Configuration I
C02,0 = Standard (Flexible Service Intervals / 2 Coolant Fans)
C03,3 = 1 Coolant Fan
C04,5 = Flexible Service Intervals inactive
C05,00x0?xx: Powertrain
C06,0 = Front-Wheel-Drive (FWD)
C07,1 = All-Wheel-Drive (AWD)
C08,00x0x?x: CAN-Databus
C09,+1 = Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
C10,+2 = Airbags
C11,+4 = Climate Control (Climatronic)
C12,00x0xx?: Transmission
C13,1 = 5-Speed Manual Transmission
C14,2 = 6-Speed Manual Transmission
C15,8 = Direct-Shift-Gearbox (DSG/02E)

And there is one more place where to code it, I will have to check but it's kinda late now to go to the car now

Also, looking at your readout from the DSG, I can see you have an AE unit running firmware 1111. I'll check tomorrow what is this firmware running on.

From my experience the AE mechatronic units (There are AD, AE and AJ units and some older ones ) have a tendency to communicate and connect ony on K-Line. Most of the units I played with will 8 out of 10 times only connect on K-Line and they are older units.
Try to post an advanced ID of the transmission.

[Jaxone]

So I was right also about the coding.
You need the gateway also.
19 - CAN-Gateway
Byte 00 Bit 1 02 - Automatic Transmission ECU Installed.

If you need one I can send you one for free ready codded. I have a bag in my garrage

[barrygti]

I am looking at running a DSG in a 1.8T Corrado.

It will be running the later DBW loom and ECU, hoping for around 360bhp.

So far I have looked through your findings and believe I need the gearbox, databus and then link the wiring together.

I would like to run paddle shifter but I do not want to run all the steering electronics etc. May try and work out a better way of doing this, alternatively just extend the gear shifter and use my left hand

I find the paddles hard to use in tight turns anyway.

My next issue is gearing, I am worried the DSG boxes will be too high geared for racing.

[GTM libra]

Hi,

One thing you certainly need more is a DSG stick. The stick has a build in controller which tells the box (via CAN) to change between neutral, drive, reverse etc. With the stick you can also do manual changes. So far I did not get the paddles to work, but I am still working on it.

Reverse light and speedo are two other things that are not working in my car.

I do not have a problem with gearing. I used a box from a MK5 Golf GTI, which has about the right gearing for my application (800 Kg RWD sportscar) I do have a lot less power however. The DSG is specified to handle max 350 Nm, some folk put a lot more to it and it survives. Increasing the pros sure on the clutch helps preventing clutch slip.

Bye,

Bertram

[Issam Abed]

I would like to run paddle shifter but I do not want to run all the steering electronics etc. May try and work out a better way of doing this, alternatively just extend the gear shifter and use my left hand

You actually do not need the shifter paddles at all. You can just run off the gear selector ...makes it alot simpler.

[10Ten]

You actually do not need the shifter paddles at all. You can just run off the gear selector ...makes it alot simpler.

and is a cool way to do it IMO. i often drive days using only the sequential control stick and never the paddles.

[stef 4x4]

I am looking at running a DSG in a 1.8T Corrado.

It will be running the later DBW loom and ECU, hoping for around 360bhp.

So far I have looked through your findings and believe I need the gearbox, databus and then link the wiring together.

I would like to run paddle shifter but I do not want to run all the steering electronics etc. May try and work out a better way of doing this, alternatively just extend the gear shifter and use my left hand

I find the paddles hard to use in tight turns anyway.

My next issue is gearing, I am worried the DSG boxes will be too high geared for racing.

The gearing of the DSG should not be the problem in your corrado because the tires you use are a lot smaller than those of the newer cars.
A friend has TFSI and DSG in a golf mark 2 and driving 120 km/h the engine is doing 3200/min.
He used the paddle shifters of a touareg and fitted them on the steering house.
Friends in Germany made the software for shifting, cruise control, revs, etc.

[stef 4x4]

[QUOTE=GTM libra;74669870]Hi,

One thing you certainly need more is a DSG stick. The stick has a build in controller which tells the box (via CAN) to change between neutral, drive, reverse etc. With the stick you can also do manual changes. So far I did not get the paddles to work, but I am still working on it.

Reverse light and speedo are two other things that are not working in my car.

I do not have a problem with gearing. I used a box from a MK5 Golf GTI, which has about the right gearing for my application (800 Kg RWD sportscar) I do have a lot less power however. The DSG is specified to handle max 350 Nm, some folk put a lot more to it and it survives. Increasing the pros sure on the clutch helps preventing clutch slip.


If you are searching for someone who might be able to put other software in your mechatronic you can contact JD engineering in the Netherlands.
He changed the software of my friens DSG in his golf mark 2. The clutch can handle now 450 Nm.

[zhengmin333]

In China. totel we have total 4000 consumers DSG issue. around 200 changed the gearbox.unfortunatly, we are only 4 years or 150,000 km guarantee period. we will complaint DSG with your guys.

[Airwolf2]

On a similar note, does anyone know if you need to code a different DSG box into a car is you swap it? I have a gearbox from a 170TDI which is higher geared which I am going to swap into my 104TDI, just wondering if it will need coding/ or even work? Physically it is looking the same

[tmiw]

In China. totel we have total 4000 consumers DSG issue. around 200 changed the gearbox.unfortunatly, we are only 4 years or 150,000 km guarantee period. we will complaint DSG with your guys.

How many DSG cars are there in China?

[ktm25089]

Another one here looking to make the swap
I have passat '08 2.0TFSI with tiptronic and APR stg3 on it.

Have anyone finished the swap?What about the mounts,the flywheel and the driveshafts?are the same??

Thanks
George

[GolfAn_CHN]

Above 500,000 dsg cars in China. Unfortunately,most cars equied with dsg have the same problems.And many consumer have replaced the gearbox many times.