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    Thread: The Hoedown On Catch-Cans

    1. Member ryan mills's Avatar
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      01-12-2012 04:52 PM #226
      Quote Originally Posted by Issam Abed View Post
      Both performing the same function....to seal.
      I do not mean to be rude but you are arguing a mute point here.
      Yeah, what ever. You win. *moot point.

      Here, read this. I guess Volkswagen doesn't have a clue either.

      http://www.google.com/patents?id=fLI...page&q&f=false
      Last edited by ryan mills; 01-12-2012 at 04:55 PM.

    2. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      01-12-2012 09:48 PM #227
      Quote Originally Posted by ryan mills View Post
      Valve seal leakage is the main reason for the buildup on the valves. There is nothing you can do about it. As Synthetic oils get better, the buildup problem will get better. Catch cans help, but PCV fumes are not the main cause of the valve deposits.
      Quote Originally Posted by ryan mills View Post
      Alright, so I thought about it, and I can't see how you can get a perfect seal from the valve seals. They leak, always will, that it their design. Sure, the fuel isn't washing the valves off, but what is getting washed from the valves? What about people with catch cans since day one that still have carbon buildup? how does that happen? Now, I would love to see a seal that can handle thousands of strokes per minute for millions of cycles without any leakage, but I don't see how that is possible.
      Actually this is almost fully correct. Valve stem seals, no matter the application, will allow some oil to pass through sooner or later. It helps to lube the stem and any build-up on the valve would be washed off in a conventional port injected system, but never in a DI engine. VAG's redesign of the intake valve has proven to be a failure, and that's why they have decided to abandon the idea and have now resorted to a dual injector system seen in the EA888 engine design.

      Furthermore Syn oils do cake-up and burn just like organic based oils do but flake easier at extreme temperatures and in the right conditions. So any oil that finds it way onto an exhaust valve let's say, should burn off theoretically. Unfortunately Syn oils will not improve enough in our lifetime to to point that our concerns over carbon build-up would be minimized, and certainly not in time to help the DI cars we drive now.

      Quote Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
      No, but the car has less carbon buildup if you drive mostly highway (IIRC). I bet a lot of people with serious carbon problems drove mostly short trips at low speeds.
      This may be true for conventional multipoint or port injected engines, (where the intake valves are continuously cleaned with detergent fuel) but not in a direct injected engines that utilize only one injector inside the combustion chamber. In fact, you could drive a DI engine car all around the world at highway speeds and the result would be disappointing. Massive carbon build-up on the intake valves would be the result... not less.

      Quote Originally Posted by Krieger View Post
      probably has something to do with seals expanding when hot, and valves getting heated when moving at highway speeds.

      I really want to come up with a way to have a tiny spray of WM come on above a certain RPM or air flow rate or something. Just something to keep stuff clean and super chilly.
      Yes, engine environments are hell. Sodium (and other) filled valves can help reduce heat and wear, but these are mostly reserved for the exhaust valves that usually run at four times the temperature.

      Quote Originally Posted by ryan mills View Post
      Yeah, what ever. You win. *moot point.

      Here, read this. I guess Volkswagen doesn't have a clue either.

      http://www.google.com/patents?id=fLI...page&q&f=false
      Yup, like I said, this design has proven to be a failure.... and they know it.
      Last edited by VWRedux; 01-13-2012 at 09:19 PM.
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    3. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      01-12-2012 10:04 PM #228
      Quote Originally Posted by ryan mills View Post
      Yeah, what ever. You win. *moot point.

      Here, read this. I guess Volkswagen doesn't have a clue either.

      http://www.google.com/patents?id=fLI...page&q&f=false

      I am not sure you understand anything in the Patent you just posted? There is not a single blurb about carbon deposits due to oil seeping past the intake valves. Says it right there @ in the middle of page 14:

      Quote Originally Posted by US6866031
      Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of the intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following results :


      • Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components (they are referring to the intake valve and intake port here)
      • These constituents are chiefly long chain and branched chain hydrocarbons i.e. the low volatility components of oil and fuel. (do you understand what low volatity means?)
      • Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil & fuel particles in turn become embedded.
      • This process is a CIRCULAR process (i.e. it will constantly repeat itself) , by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases.Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation and in the process , the blowby gases and recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.

      The partitation plate they describe in the patent is the intake flapper motor , not the valve stem seal.You can continue to believe what you wish or you can educate yourself on the BASIC function of direct injection motors. Again read this.
      Quote Originally Posted by Issam Abed
      Not having a fuel "washing" down the valves is the main cause of carbon build up.
      There is a MAJOR reason why the 1.8 TSI motor coming in the MKVII GTI will have both direct injection and some form of rail injection to BATTLE the carbon build up.

    4. Member ryan mills's Avatar
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      01-12-2012 10:32 PM #229
      Yes, the two forms of fuel injection. The argument that I was making was that catch cans don't do much when there are many other factors to consider. If you read the patent info, valve seal leakage is noted to be an issue, and can be combated with lower ash oils, coatings on the back sides of the valves as well as running the the valves at either an extremely high temp, or low temp. Combustion and injector timing are another way to control carbon buildup along with a bunch of other band-aids. Direct injection just has it cards stacked against it right now, and I'm happy there are going to be new injection methods to keep deposits down, but it just sucks for millions of people that have to deal with carbon buildup.

    5. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      01-15-2012 12:18 PM #230
      Quote Originally Posted by ryan mills View Post
      The argument that I was making was that catch cans don't do much when there are many other factors to consider.
      No one argued that to begin with. Read my first post in this thread which addresses this.

    6. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      01-17-2012 09:50 PM #231
      Quote Originally Posted by ryan mills View Post
      I'm happy there are going to be new injection methods to keep deposits down, but it just sucks for millions of people that have to deal with carbon buildup.
      Yes indeed.... looks like it will be introduced in next years Audi TT! Once this technologically advanced engine make it throughout the VAG lineup, there will be no need for the Catch-Can scam to continue... unless they make you think that morning warm-up condensation ruins engines too, that is...

      The dual injected VAG EA888 1.8T...

      Last edited by VWRedux; 01-17-2012 at 09:53 PM.
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    7. Member ViRtUaLheretic's Avatar
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      01-18-2012 02:23 PM #232
      Quote Originally Posted by VWRedux View Post
      Yes indeed.... looks like it will be introduced in next years Audi TT! Once this technologically advanced engine make it throughout the VAG lineup, there will be no need for the Catch-Can scam to continue... unless they make you think that morning warm-up condensation ruins engines too, that is...
      We will just have to see what the pcv gases look like.
      I bet that the PCV gases will still be dirty enough to warrant running a CC to keep the intake tract from being coated with an oil film.

      This is just my speculation though.
      Feel free to question/bash my futuristic prediction.
      Last edited by ViRtUaLheretic; 01-18-2012 at 02:26 PM.
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    8. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      02-17-2012 09:39 PM #233



      I think this thread is interesting for those still hoping that their $500+ investment wasn't a waste. The owner of a Direct Injected VW/Audi took pictures of the carbon all over his intake valves at 50,000 miles. He then cleaned them off and installed a Catch-Can. After 38,000 additional miles, he took some more pictures... NO BIG DIFFERENCE! http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthr...res-Discussion


      Bottom line--- Catch-Cans are for suckers and Direct Injected Engines are no sweet angels!

      To answer the post above, the new EA888 will not suffer from these issues regardless of the EGR gases because the valves will be continually cleaned off by the detergent gasoline spray of the port located injectors!
      Last edited by VWRedux; 02-17-2012 at 09:44 PM.
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    9. Member ViRtUaLheretic's Avatar
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      02-20-2012 02:14 PM #234
      sweet deal, you reposted more information.

      pop off your coupler to your IC and checkout the PCV goo you have built up in there.
      $10 says mine is cleaner than somebody that doesnt use a CC
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    10. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      02-20-2012 05:42 PM #235
      Quote Originally Posted by ViRtUaLheretic View Post
      sweet deal, you reposted more information.

      pop off your coupler to your IC and checkout the PCV goo you have built up in there.
      $10 says mine is cleaner than somebody that doesnt use a CC
      Sure... if you say so!
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    11. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      02-20-2012 07:13 PM #236
      Quote Originally Posted by VWRedux View Post
      Sure... if you say so!
      then do it. Mine has been SPOTLESS since i installed my can many tens of thousands of miles ago.

      If your so sure of yourself, pull your stuff apart (takes a few minutes unless you have no idea wtf ur doing) and prove it that your IC hosing and DV are as clean as someone with a catch can.

      I have taken apart FSI motors with all kinds of mods, and the plain old truth is that they ALL have carbon on the intake valves, but the ones without cans or dump tubes for the PCV system are ALWAYS much dirtier, have oil pooled in their DV, in their IC piping, their intercooler, and a thick goo that clings to the silicone hoses themselves... First time I ever pulled my IC hoses and DV to do maintenance, I filled a plastic cup almost a third of the way full with oil drained from the DV and hosing... now, when i do the same thing... nothing. Can even wipe the walls of the piping with a rag and it is still spotless.
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    12. Member ViRtUaLheretic's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 09:24 AM #237
      Quote Originally Posted by VWRedux View Post
      Sure... if you say so!
      LoL FAIL

      Just think, all this yummy goo is being pumped in to your turbo, piping, and IC.
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    13. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 06:03 PM #238
      Quote Originally Posted by ViRtUaLheretic View Post
      LoL FAIL

      Just think, all this yummy goo is being pumped in to your turbo, piping, and IC.
      Yea, like that's real proof .... however the last time I looked, mine was clean and dandy!

      That said, keep your Trash-Can, who cares ... it's your loss because it does NOTHING to help eliminate or even reduce the bigger carbon issue... N....O...T....H....I....N....G !
      Last edited by VWRedux; 02-21-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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      02-21-2012 07:03 PM #239
      what more proof would you like than nasty pcv fluid running through the lines to my catch can?

      If it wasn't being VTA it would be directed through your turbo, discharge pipe, IC, TB pipe, TB, Intake Manifold, then your engine....

      You are so set against catch cans you arent listening to any friggin logic.
      You dont make a damn bit of sense anymore.
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    15. 02-21-2012 08:05 PM #240
      Quote Originally Posted by ViRtUaLheretic View Post
      what more proof would you like than nasty pcv fluid running through the lines to my catch can?

      If it wasn't being VTA it would be directed through your turbo, discharge pipe, IC, TB pipe, TB, Intake Manifold, then your engine....

      You are so set against catch cans you arent listening to any friggin logic.
      You dont make a damn bit of sense anymore.
      I hope you know the sludge that you see is only there because the water vapor can't separate from the oil in your catch can. In the OEM PCV system, the water vapor separates from the oil and the vapors get burned up in the combustion chamber.

      I've NEVER ever seen any pcv sludge that you claim exists in the intercooler or turbo tract. Just a light film of oil sometimes, that's it.

      Dave

    16. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 11:53 PM #241
      ill have to look for my pics. filled a cup 1/3 of the way full between my dv and IC piping.
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      02-22-2012 12:21 AM #242
      Quote Originally Posted by crew219 View Post
      I hope you know the sludge that you see is only there because the water vapor can't separate from the oil in your catch can. In the OEM PCV system, the water vapor separates from the oil and the vapors get burned up in the combustion chamber.

      I've NEVER ever seen any pcv sludge that you claim exists in the intercooler or turbo tract. Just a light film of oil sometimes, that's it.

      Dave
      The pic I posted above is from the coupler that joins from the "rear" pcv line to the added line that goes to the VTA CC. This is the gunk FROM THE LINES, there is about 2 feet of hose between the coupler I pictured above and the VTA CC .
      The whole point is to keep the pcv gases from having to be burned in the combustion chamber.
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      04-20-2012 04:04 PM #243
      I read the first 2 pages and got bored and skipped to the end.

      I am on OP's side as far as "catch can does....nothing for carbon deposit reduction"

      Could it be that the baileys solution that the catchcan does catch helps to lubricate parts of the turbo that are not connected to oil lines. And when the water evaporates I know it is similar to water injection and effectively increases octane? No need to bash, im just trying to helping with constructive criticism.
      For the most part, post count is directly proportional to douche Baggery.

    19. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      04-26-2012 06:01 PM #244
      Quote Originally Posted by Max-e-Mouse View Post
      I read the first 2 pages and got bored and skipped to the end.

      I am on OP's side as far as "catch can does....nothing for carbon deposit reduction"

      Could it be that the baileys solution that the catchcan does catch helps to lubricate parts of the turbo that are not connected to oil lines. And when the water evaporates I know it is similar to water injection and effectively increases octane? No need to bash, im just trying to helping with constructive criticism.
      Been absent awhile... Despite the arguments, there has NEVER been any indisputable evidence provided by the CC advertisers here on Vortex that Catch-Cans eliminate or even reduce carbon build-up on your DI intake valves.... NONE WHAT-SO EVER! We on the other hand have posted evidence that contradicts their advertised claims. (See post #60) In fact, the so-called benefits that catch cans provide can also be refuted. Condensation during initial start-up is ALL these cans really catch, mixed with traces of oil. After operating temperatures are reached, water vapour levels are too minimal. Yes VW has a new dual injection system that will help reduce if not eliminate the intake carbon issues and should improve the venting/PCV systems of their engines, (actually they have in the next EA888 generations... this is posted above) which will render these useless cans obsolete.
      Last edited by VWRedux; 04-26-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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    20. Member ViRtUaLheretic's Avatar
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      04-29-2012 06:53 PM #245
      oh hai
      71k miles
      VTA CC
      w/m

      Cylinder 1

      Cylinder 2

      Cylinder 3

      Cylinder 4



      Friend with a FSI motor helped me this weekend, he just about **** himself when he saw how clean my valves were.
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      04-29-2012 07:05 PM #246
      Ea888 powa. Looks good. Nice and white like mine. Your stems look better too.
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      04-30-2012 11:43 AM #247
      The water meth setup has a lot more to do with your valves being that clean than your can me thinks.


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    23. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      04-30-2012 01:10 PM #248
      thats pretty much what mine looked like when we pulled my mani a while back to fix my oil cooler. a light dusting of carbon all over, except mine had a tiny bit of oil on my valve stems. even with just VTA, your probably cutting down on a ton of build up... meth is just icing on the cake.
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