Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 35 of 54

    Thread: ....Water Meth Injection.....good or bad idea?

    1. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 24th, 2008
      Location
      Millersville, Pa
      Posts
      2,270
      Vehicles
      2002 Audi TT 225Q 1996 VW GTI Vr 1998 VW Passat 1.8t
      05-09-2011 10:50 PM #1
      So so far one of the best kits or at least I think is the best kit in my opinion is the Snow Performance http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=8 ....does anyone currently have one? How often do you have to add meth to the tank? is it worth it? ....Also Alot of people keep telling me if I choose to do this I should get my car Dynotuned......do we even benefit from this? Ive heard that they normally cant do the things apr and other companies can? im tired and lost someone help

    2. Member Audiguy84's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 14th, 2006
      Location
      soaking up the heat
      Posts
      2,187
      Vehicles
      01 Audi TT roadster, 05 VW Touareg - V8
      05-09-2011 11:15 PM #2
      Its worth it and it does make power. Getting it tuned does help. But spend your money on wheels as I've given you another option

    3. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 24th, 2008
      Location
      Millersville, Pa
      Posts
      2,270
      Vehicles
      2002 Audi TT 225Q 1996 VW GTI Vr 1998 VW Passat 1.8t
      05-09-2011 11:18 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by Audiguy84 View Post
      Its worth it and it does make power. Getting it tuned does help. But spend your money on wheels as I've given you another option
      I have enough money for both...lol

    4. Moderator PLAYED TT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 17th, 2010
      Location
      Reading, PA/ Williamsport, PA
      Posts
      13,897
      Vehicles
      A German thing, and a not so German thing
      05-09-2011 11:20 PM #4
      Get it. Chris runs on on the ko4 s4 and it made a noticeable improvement. He uses the WW reservoir for the fluid
      Slammed Radio Flyer---flickr---My Build Thread--- Podi
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      if this really happens, I'm 'stancing' my car and going for some 'hellaflush'.

    5. 05-09-2011 11:21 PM #5
      I've been contemplating the same. I'm pretty much full bolt ons minus WM. I'd like to but a kit & see if I can squeeze/tune a little more power out of the ko4.

    6. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 24th, 2008
      Location
      Millersville, Pa
      Posts
      2,270
      Vehicles
      2002 Audi TT 225Q 1996 VW GTI Vr 1998 VW Passat 1.8t
      05-09-2011 11:26 PM #6
      I think im gonna haha i wanna get the whole legit setup but im mostly concerned about how often i have to add/buy more meth....if it chugs it like gas then **** it ill wait till i have another daily

    7. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 10th, 2009
      Location
      Milwaukee
      Posts
      152
      Vehicles
      2000 audi s4, 2002 audi tt quattro
      05-09-2011 11:28 PM #7
      I have the snow performance kit on my s4 and noticed a huge gain. Def. worth doing it.
      2000 Audi S4 Tial 770R's built motor (in progress)
      2002 Audi TT 225 quattro

    8. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 24th, 2008
      Location
      Millersville, Pa
      Posts
      2,270
      Vehicles
      2002 Audi TT 225Q 1996 VW GTI Vr 1998 VW Passat 1.8t
      05-09-2011 11:35 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by jamestown478 View Post
      I have the snow performance kit on my s4 and noticed a huge gain. Def. worth doing it.
      How often do you have to add fluid???!!!!

    9. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 10th, 2009
      Location
      Milwaukee
      Posts
      152
      Vehicles
      2000 audi s4, 2002 audi tt quattro
      05-09-2011 11:39 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by 320hpBlackTT View Post
      How often do you have to add fluid???!!!!
      I daily drove it every summer and with me beating the hell out of it I would refill maybe every other week
      2000 Audi S4 Tial 770R's built motor (in progress)
      2002 Audi TT 225 quattro

    10. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 24th, 2008
      Location
      Millersville, Pa
      Posts
      2,270
      Vehicles
      2002 Audi TT 225Q 1996 VW GTI Vr 1998 VW Passat 1.8t
      05-09-2011 11:40 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by jamestown478 View Post
      I daily drove it every summer and with me beating the hell out of it I would refill maybe every other week
      and how expensive is the stuff? like how much does it cost you to refill it haha

    11. Member Mantvis's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 1st, 2010
      Location
      Chicago, IL
      Posts
      1,641
      Vehicles
      2001 Audi TT 225hp, 2003 Audi TT 180hp
      05-09-2011 11:42 PM #11
      How much do you put in?
      What the meths price?
      Where do get it?
      2001 225Q (Function Car): APR Stage 3+, APR 3' Exhaust System, Brembo Brakes, Koni Suspension
      2003 180 (Form Car): Rokkor Coilovers,Custom Front Single Frame Bumper with A8 Grill Votex Sideskirts, Votex Rearlip, Axis Penta 19' Wheels, 2 Rockford Fosgate 15' Subwoofers

    12. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 10th, 2009
      Location
      Milwaukee
      Posts
      152
      Vehicles
      2000 audi s4, 2002 audi tt quattro
      05-09-2011 11:44 PM #12
      I use my windshield washer resevior.
      I buy my methanol from my race gas supplier for 20 bucks for a 5 gallon jug of it
      I then mix it 50/50 with distilled water.
      2000 Audi S4 Tial 770R's built motor (in progress)
      2002 Audi TT 225 quattro

    13. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 24th, 2008
      Location
      Millersville, Pa
      Posts
      2,270
      Vehicles
      2002 Audi TT 225Q 1996 VW GTI Vr 1998 VW Passat 1.8t
      05-09-2011 11:45 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by jamestown478 View Post
      I use my windshield washer resevior.
      I buy my methanol from my race gas supplier for 20 bucks for a 5 gallon jug of it
      I then mix it 50/50 with distilled water.
      thats not bad at all.....

    14. 05-10-2011 12:00 AM #14
      My buddy uses a bottle of that HEET and fills equal parts water. Says he fills it up one a month. I'm down.

    15. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 24th, 2008
      Location
      Millersville, Pa
      Posts
      2,270
      Vehicles
      2002 Audi TT 225Q 1996 VW GTI Vr 1998 VW Passat 1.8t
      05-10-2011 12:06 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by warranty225cpe View Post
      My buddy uses a bottle of that HEET and fills equal parts water. Says he fills it up one a month. I'm down.
      wish snow performance would do a group buy with the safe system **** lol

    16. 05-10-2011 12:13 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by 320hpBlackTT View Post
      the safe system
      Hu?

    17. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 24th, 2008
      Location
      Millersville, Pa
      Posts
      2,270
      Vehicles
      2002 Audi TT 225Q 1996 VW GTI Vr 1998 VW Passat 1.8t
      05-10-2011 12:14 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by warranty225cpe View Post
      Hu?
      it automatically basically puts the system in limp mode if you somehow run the meth too low so it doesnt ruin anything

    18. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 10th, 2009
      Location
      Milwaukee
      Posts
      152
      Vehicles
      2000 audi s4, 2002 audi tt quattro
      05-10-2011 01:03 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by warranty225cpe View Post
      My buddy uses a bottle of that HEET and fills equal parts water. Says he fills it up one a month. I'm down.
      heet will only get you the cooling advantages of the meth system. Running actual water/methanol also bumps the octane more.
      2000 Audi S4 Tial 770R's built motor (in progress)
      2002 Audi TT 225 quattro

    19. Banned madmax199's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 28th, 2009
      Location
      Long Island NY
      Posts
      1,278
      05-10-2011 04:02 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by jamestown478 View Post
      heet will only get you the cooling advantages of the meth system. Running actual water/methanol also bumps the octane more.
      Heet is 99% methanol and 1% Proprietary Additive. That's the reason why, some choose to run it as a substitute for pure methanol. The result, at least Octane wise, should be the same- altough I wouldn't personally run it or recommend it because of the unknown additive.

    20. Banned madmax199's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 28th, 2009
      Location
      Long Island NY
      Posts
      1,278
      05-10-2011 04:36 AM #20
      For the OP:

      Water injection is great way to boost your engine's performance safely. There are many companies nowadays selling kits but anyone who has been using water injection long enough will tell you that the 3 big names in the game are #1 Aquamist, #2 Labonte and #3 Snow.
      I choose to run a Labonte Kit because of the incredible support that Dan@ Labonte provides, right here in the US. Richard L @ Aquamist is also a good help but they are based in Europe. I'd rather support the US business but I have to admit that Aquamist product is the nicest of the 3. Snow is also popular but does not provide the kind of support the other 2 main players do.

      Water injection works two ways. One it removes heat by vaporization allowing to run higher boost levels without injesting lava. The second attribute to water injection is the octane boost that effectively raise the knock/detonation threshold. So basically water injection will allow you to push the agressiveness of the car's tune without blowing it up since water/meth does not in itself increase the power.

      There are different philosophy, when it comes to running water injection. Some (like me and the rally crowd) run straight water, the masses run a mix of methanol or alcohol with distilled water, while another minority swears by running 100% meth. IMO, the reason for the different mix is tuning.

      Most tuners/DIYers or should I say tooners go the easy way(tuning wise) and do a 50/50 mix. Their reasoning is that a mix provides (in theory) the best of both worlds. The reality is that it's cheaper than straight meth or alky and easier to tune than straight water(raise the boost, add some timing and keep the AFR on the rich side).

      Water has the best cooling capacity, it removes more heat than both alcohol and methanol.
      Most don't know but water does not have and octane rating since it's not a fuel/combustible(its resitance to detonation or auto ignition is infinite). If the evaporation process is happening in the combustion chamber, water has the capacity to raise the detonation threshold to seriously high levels. The key is to get the water to vaporize in-cylinder(direct port injection or post TB injection).
      The key to such a set up is really small nozzles to fully vaporize the water, a strong ignition(in-cylinder vaporization makes ignition blow out and misfires a lot more likely) and leaning out the AFR past the conventional comfort zone.

      Straight meth is the juice of choice for a small group(mostly big turbo guys). My take on it is that it's an easy way to substitute for a lack of big enough injectors. Since the meth is at such high level, it becomes and alternate fuel and impact the AFRs greatly. A BT car that was maxed out by it's fuel supply, rather than its boost level can easily take advantage of this approach.

      My advice to having a safe, reliable water injection setup:

      -Get a good kit with failsafe(s)

      -If you're going to run meth, make sure the pump is rated for it and at what percentage.

      -Please do yourself a favor and stay away from winshield washer fluid, heet or anything that has additives or dye that will eventually clog your nozzles and as a result potentially blow your motor. Stop being cheap and buy straight methanol or denatured alcohol(I personally like acohol better because it's less corosive) and mix it by weight, not by volume.

      -Do your research on what size nozzle is good for your turbo/boost and mix of fluid(100% meth calls for different nozzle sizes than 50/50 mix or 100% water)

      - Nozzle placement is key to a good setup. Pre TB injection is good at lowering IAT, while post TB nozzle placement does a better job at raising octane levels and preventing detonation(I run a combination of both pre and post TB nozzles of different sizes).

      - Make sure you do a pro install. Pump vs solenoid vs nozzle placement is important(solenoid too far away from nozzles will cause dripping). Make sure the whole system is leak free, especially with meth.

      Water injection, when done right, can be a good way to make extra power. I was able to safely run 30 psi of boost and 6* of extra timing on the stock K04 before I added E85 to the mix(I'm not saying you should but it's possible). My IAT and EGT were so low that I deleted one of the SMIC to reduce pressure loss. My setup consist of a Labonte MAF controlled kit(the maf kits are much better at controlling the spray at rapid on/off throttle situations that are seen, when racing). I run a staggered nozzle set up with (2)M1 nozzle pre TB and a M.5 nozzzle post TB). I choose to run the windshield tank to keep things simple and compact. With a trunk mounted tank, there is a lot more lines to leak and the pump has to work harder to prime things up at first spray. I should also mention that I run twin solenoids, one controls the post TB nozzle alone while the second one run the split line going to the other two pre TB nozzles.


      This what IAT looked liked on a hot summer day pull, at 30 psi heat soaked:



      Uploaded with ImageShack.us



      This is an IAT graph rolling into the throttle from a cruise



      Uploaded with ImageShack.us
      Last edited by madmax199; 05-10-2011 at 06:09 AM.

    21. Member coachvtt's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 16th, 2008
      Location
      Jupiter,FL
      Posts
      573
      Vehicles
      01' Audi TT 225+
      05-10-2011 11:09 AM #21
      I have the alcoholinjectionsystems.

      I have been running this for 2yrs now and I would never run without it. The heat here in South Florida is horrible.

      In fact I just changed my gasket on the intake mani and my TB is clean as a whistle.
      I spray continually between 15 to top boost which is about 20psi.

      I used to get the mix from snow but I researched and I use the yellow bottle of HEET and the same bottle of water. I love it.

      Best mod I have done hands down. $300 best money I have spent

    22. Banned madmax199's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 28th, 2009
      Location
      Long Island NY
      Posts
      1,278
      05-10-2011 11:24 AM #22
      Again, heet or washer fluid leave residue from their additives that could clog nozzles overtime. Mixing should also be done by weight, not volume. A bottle of heet with the same bottle filled with water is not a 50/50 mix.

    23. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 10th, 2009
      Location
      Milwaukee
      Posts
      152
      Vehicles
      2000 audi s4, 2002 audi tt quattro
      05-10-2011 11:55 AM #23
      for the price of how cheap you can get meth it is way better to just get a jug of it over heet. Def. cheaper and better to use.
      2000 Audi S4 Tial 770R's built motor (in progress)
      2002 Audi TT 225 quattro

    24. Member coachvtt's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 16th, 2008
      Location
      Jupiter,FL
      Posts
      573
      Vehicles
      01' Audi TT 225+
      05-10-2011 12:37 PM #24
      Well the meth is far more expensive than bottles of heet.

      Yes! I keep an eye on the lines and clogging etc,. I mean everything you have said is true expect for the meth to be cheaper, I have to disagree.

      Yes, and your supposed to use distilled water as well but guess what I have been using tap water and heet for two years now with no problems.

      So take it for what its worth for those wanting to get into the water meth.

      Hell people have used windshield washer fluid as long as it has more meth than cleaner and no dye!

      One 12oz bottle of heet and one 12oz bottle water Is not 50-50? if not what is it?

    25. Member coachvtt's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 16th, 2008
      Location
      Jupiter,FL
      Posts
      573
      Vehicles
      01' Audi TT 225+
      05-10-2011 12:38 PM #25
      There is no additives in heet its 100% methanol. Its the yellow bottles!

    26. Banned madmax199's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 28th, 2009
      Location
      Long Island NY
      Posts
      1,278
      05-10-2011 01:15 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by coachvtt View Post
      There is no additives in heet its 100% methanol. Its the yellow bottles!
      Do your research, I'm not pulling this stuff at out my a$$.
      MSDS for heet 99% methanol and 1% proprietary additive.

      Do this in your garage (my neighbors think I'm crazy), burn cap-full of heet and you will be left with an oily residue. That oily residue is what's going to get deposited in your nozzles. If you want to risk having a clogged nozzle at full boost it's up to you but don't recommend it to others without letting them know(or knowing for yourself) the risks involved.

      MSDS for yellow bottle of heet
      http://zenstoves.net/MSDS/MSDSHeet.htm

    27. Banned madmax199's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 28th, 2009
      Location
      Long Island NY
      Posts
      1,278
      05-10-2011 01:32 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by coachvtt View Post

      Hell people have used windshield washer fluid as long as it has more meth than cleaner and no dye!

      One 12oz bottle of heet and one 12oz bottle water Is not 50-50? if not what is it?
      Just because people have used washer fluid that doesn't mean it's right. A lot of people in the EVO world have had their engine go boom because of their system failing(clogged nozzles under boost). Do you have to follow that kind of trend? I'd guess no, the cleaning chemicals in washer fluid has no place in my engine and it should not in yours either.

      I'm no chemist but again if you had done your research or did the mixing yourself in a controlled manner you'd know that methanol/alcohol/heet does not make a 50/50 mix with water.
      Mixing the two result in a chemical reaction that produces a lot of heat(not kidding, the 1st time I did it, I thought something went wrong) and also result in the wrong mix of water and alcohol/meth.
      The right way, is to do it by weight, not volume

      I'd post chemical data to back up what I'm saying but it's time that you do a little research and educate yourself on something that you're using on a daily basis.
      BTW methanol can be found for cheap also if you do some research(Local gokart or dragster shop is your best bet)
      Last edited by madmax199; 05-10-2011 at 02:06 PM.

    28. Member coachvtt's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 16th, 2008
      Location
      Jupiter,FL
      Posts
      573
      Vehicles
      01' Audi TT 225+
      05-10-2011 02:00 PM #28
      1% of additive is hard to stop me from using the Heet!

      I'm sure your not pulling this out of you A$$. Not here to argue facts.

      Just here to discuss and justify opinions, thats all. Not calling you out what so ever.

      I just think the Heet is working fine for me and the Meth is more expensive. thats all.

      I did not say I disagreed on what you said. Only on the cost of Meth vs Heet!

      I just looked at the lines and nozzels on Sunday for the first time in two years and they were fine.
      two years of heat and tap water no clogs and my TB was clean as a whistle like new after 114,000
      miles.
      Just my opinion and two cents for what its worth.
      12oz bottle of Heet $1.39

    29. Member coachvtt's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 16th, 2008
      Location
      Jupiter,FL
      Posts
      573
      Vehicles
      01' Audi TT 225+
      05-10-2011 02:02 PM #29
      So how would you mix it by volume?

      and not bottle to bottle?

    30. Banned madmax199's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 28th, 2009
      Location
      Long Island NY
      Posts
      1,278
      05-10-2011 02:09 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by coachvtt View Post
      So how would you mix it by volume?

      and not bottle to bottle?
      Use weight
      Put X volume of HEET/meth/alky in a container and weigh it.
      Use the same container and add Y amount of distilled water untill you reach the desired weight
      Mix X and Y to get a 50/50 mix

    31. Banned madmax199's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 28th, 2009
      Location
      Long Island NY
      Posts
      1,278
      05-10-2011 02:33 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by coachvtt View Post
      1% of additive is hard to stop me from using the Heet!

      I'm sure your not pulling this out of you A$$. Not here to argue facts.

      Just here to discuss and justify opinions, thats all. Not calling you out what so ever.

      I just think the Heet is working fine for me and the Meth is more expensive. thats all.

      I did not say I disagreed on what you said. Only on the cost of Meth vs Heet!

      I just looked at the lines and nozzels on Sunday for the first time in two years and they were fine.
      two years of heat and tap water no clogs and my TB was clean as a whistle like new after 114,000
      miles.
      Just my opinion and two cents for what its worth.
      12oz bottle of Heet $1.39
      I hear you and understand where you are coming from (trust me, I'm all for doing things on a budget but it has to be right). It's like saying "I ran my turbo car on 89 octane gas for two years and everything seems fine"; fine until something bad happen that could have been prevented by doing things the right way.

      Methanol is $5 a gallon around me, so why would you or anyone risk a potential problem? I personally don't like or run meth because it's very corosive and flamable, plus straight water(when done right) provide the same or more potential for power. In the winter, I mix 30% alcohol with water to prevent freezing.

    32. Member coachvtt's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 16th, 2008
      Location
      Jupiter,FL
      Posts
      573
      Vehicles
      01' Audi TT 225+
      05-10-2011 03:44 PM #32
      I run the meth and water for cooling purposes only if it gives me that extra boost in power so be it.
      Mixing with water is not that flamable in such a fine mist am I right?
      Even if I go 49% meth and 51% water which alot of guys do

      Now as per the Evo guys. Well who knows what else they do and from what I'm told those engine blocks dont' last as long as the 1.8t of the VW/Audi's. I don't know for that as a fact as that I'm not an Evo guy and not many have over 100,00 miles and still running strong. Maybe maybe not.
      I'm a VW/Audi guy!
      I will mix my next batch that way, by weighing it.

      Very good!

    33. 05-10-2011 03:52 PM #33
      No wonder Coaches TT is so slow

    34. 05-10-2011 04:11 PM #34
      Think running this on a Stock Audi TT K03S turbo will improve it any?

      How much gain are we talking about ?

    35. Member coachvtt's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 16th, 2008
      Location
      Jupiter,FL
      Posts
      573
      Vehicles
      01' Audi TT 225+
      05-10-2011 07:25 PM #35
      I'm not looking for gains if there is it's slight.
      I'm using the water/meth for cooling purposes.
      I mean it gives me a shot of adrenalin like running a cool engine all day.
      In the mornings the engine is cool and runs well when the engine temps are up to normal its a little sluggish. With the water/Meth its like running a cool morning engine all day.

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •