For the REVO STG III K04 guys............

[jhines_06gli]

your scenario as described is impossible and a change from .5% to -3% would NEVER cause a failure. If you even remotely believe this you clearly do not grasp even the basic concepts of how an engine works. Your car is doing greater than a 4% change while it sits at idle in your driveway, thousands of times a day.

An injector failure would result in 0 fuel, 0 fuel means 0 power in that cylinder and the chance of failure is less than if the car was sitting at idle and running perfectly.

Any injector failure between 0 and normal that would possibly cause an engine failure would cause enough of an imbalance that the car would shut down that cylinder and go into limp mode.

So what exactly is it that you know more than I do on this?

As I has already explained to you a change of that nature is 100% normal and expected in DAILY operation. If someone had an engine failure due to a component failure it would have NOTHING to do with Revo or me and they would have no basis for a lawsuit, apparently another subject I am more well versed on then you are.

Take the argument to the PMs guys. Trying to keep this thread here for the guys out there with this issue.
-J. Hines

[chris@revotechnik]

Take the argument to the PMs guys. Trying to keep this thread here for the guys out there with this issue.
-J. Hines

No, everything being discussed is on topic as it applies to what people think fuel trims mean. Unfortunately golfrs has personal issues with me and just about anyone who tells him that what he said was wrong and no matter how many times you prove it he will continue with personal attacks and any other methods he can to derail the topic.

If Revo is going to be in the title of this thread I will continue to post in it and ensure our customers know what the truth is, don't want me in it start another one without Revo in it next time.

[GolfRS]

your scenario as described is impossible and a change from .5% to -3% would NEVER cause a failure. If you even remotely believe this you clearly do not grasp even the basic concepts of how an engine works. Your car is doing greater than a 4% change while it sits at idle in your driveway, thousands of times a day.

Good God...You are THICK...

Who said anything about the change in trims causing the failure ??
What's the problem Chris ?Can't even read English anymore??
What i said was a change in trims might indicate a failing or failed
hardware component which in turn might cause a failure.
Is that really so hard to comprehend ??

An injector failure would result in 0 fuel, 0 fuel means 0 power in that cylinder and the chance of failure is less than if the car was sitting at idle and running perfectly.

Any injector failure between 0 and normal that would possibly cause an engine failure would cause enough of an imbalance that the car would shut down that cylinder and go into limp mode.

So what exactly is it that you know more than I do on this?

LOL....So in your "expert opinion" an injector failure always means 0 fuel ??
So in your "expert opinion" again an injector cannot malfunction, spraying less
fuel than what the ECU is telling it to, causing a lean state that might not be detected
by the ECU, thus causing the failure of that cylinder ??How does the ECU know
one cylinder is running lean Chris ??What if the other injectors are also malfunctioning
but actually leaking, and altogether masking the lambda values ??Will that cylinder
knock ??Will that be detected by the ECU in time to save the engine ??

Yes do tell me, what is it exactly that you know more ???

it would have NOTHING to do with Revo or me and they would have no basis for a lawsuit, apparently another subject I am more well versed on then you are.

Aaahhh right....

No i see what they are paying you for at Revo.I knew it wasn't for being tech support...
You probably have that engraved in a tablet above your head in your office (if you even have one)

To be honest if my engine had failed and you threw that BS at me, the last thing
on my mind would be suing you...

[GolfRS]

I will continue to post in it and ensure our customers know what the truth is

That is what is probably engraved in the second tablet below the first one...

[chris@revotechnik]

There is so much stupidity in what you just posted it is actually painful to read.

[GolfRS]

There is so much stupidity in what you just posted it is actually painful to read.

Its funny how your answers really sum up to "you are stupid", "you don't know",
"i know everything", "you know nothing", and yet completely lack any
technical knowledge and information.

It's like all of those techs that i've talked to in the past that didn't have a clue,
didn't have an answer, and their only defense was to try and make themselves look clever,and
everybody else look dumb, just to be able to survive.

I have to say Chris, i knew you were an ass, but i didn't know you
are also a dumbass...

[chris@revotechnik]

No it is simple. It doesn't matter what anyone knows you insist you are right every single time regardless of how idiotic your ideas are. It doesn't matter if every person responding is saying you are incorrect you will sit there and claim you are right. What you are saying is just plain stupid, one because it is and two because you just keep fighting the same wrong points over and over again. You have proven in this post that you do not have any understanding of how the fuel trims work or what they even mean. You claim they are gospel but then mock the engineers who created them.

I'm sorry this is well beyond the 100th time I've had to try and straighten out the crap you are posting in a thread that has Revo in the title. Unfortunately this won't be the last time you steer my customers wrong while getting involved in a thread that has nothing to do with you.

It is completely disrespectful to the members of this forum that you insist on continuing to push your incorrect views on everyone who is trying to learn something just because you think one day you might get me on something.

You are 100% wrong on what you think the fuel trims mean or even how much of a variance is tolerated. You have now been told this by several people including two who have actually been trained by VW and Audi to use this information. You need to just accept this and stop ruining every thread you get involved in.

I don't care who made the post with the incorrect information I would have corrected it because it involved products I support. Of course it happened to come from you which now means that anyone reading this thread has to suffer through your BS because once again you are upset that I corrected you. The answer is simple, do some research and educate yourself on topics you are going to post in. I double check my information before I make almost every post I do to ensure that the information is going to be helpful because I know it is correct.

[jhines_06gli]

Hey everyone

[GolfRS]

No it is simple. It doesn't matter what anyone knows you insist you are right every single time regardless of how idiotic your ideas are. It doesn't matter if every person responding is saying you are incorrect you will sit there and claim you are right. What you are saying is just plain stupid, one because it is and two because you just keep fighting the same wrong points over and over again. You have proven in this post that you do not have any understanding of how the fuel trims work or what they even mean. You claim they are gospel but then mock the engineers who created them.

I'm sorry this is well beyond the 100th time I've had to try and straighten out the crap you are posting in a thread that has Revo in the title. Unfortunately this won't be the last time you steer my customers wrong while getting involved in a thread that has nothing to do with you.

It is completely disrespectful to the members of this forum that you insist on continuing to push your incorrect views on everyone who is trying to learn something just because you think one day you might get me on something.

You are 100% wrong on what you think the fuel trims mean or even how much of a variance is tolerated. You have now been told this by several people including two who have actually been trained by VW and Audi to use this information. You need to just accept this and stop ruining every thread you get involved in.

I don't care who made the post with the incorrect information I would have corrected it because it involved products I support. Of course it happened to come from you which now means that anyone reading this thread has to suffer through your BS because once again you are upset that I corrected you. The answer is simple, do some research and educate yourself on topics you are going to post in. I double check my information before I make almost every post I do to ensure that the information is going to be helpful because I know it is correct.

Omg here we go into another Chris ego fit...

Seriously man, i don't even know who the f*ck you think you are and who crowned you "VAG King", but the people i've been talking to all say you are full of bull**** and totally clueless.You get a seizure when someone tries to prove you wrong, you completely lack any technical knowledge and as far as i'm concerned, even though i have Revo software you are the last person i would ever go to for help.

Once again all you ever do to respond to my posts is rows and rows of BS on how you know everything (hilarious how you also include other people that obviously know something, saying they share your opinion...LOL) and i know nothing.Most probably you don't even understand what the f*ck
i'm talking about...do you Chris ??You even suggested i said trims will destroy an engine...How DUMB is that ??

You say i try to "push" my incorrect opinions on others, and yet, this exactly what you do.
Who told you that having a company's name at the end of a nickname in a public forum
automatically means that person is smart or even qualified to produce correct information ?

I haven't seen a single piece of technical information coming out of your mouth to contradict what
i am saying other than insults and taunts that somehow make you feel you are in control,
and think the person confronting you will "run away scared"...As i said above your panic ego fit is
what i've come to expect from people that don't have the necessary knowledge to actually
counter what i am saying.You are supposed to be "customer support" and yet lack all the
people skills necessary for that place.Tell me Chris, is this how you answer to your clients ??
Are they all certified VW-Audi techs and you answer them in a more technical way ?
Or do you just tell them they are wrong and to go f*ck off like you do in 99% of your posts ?

And one last note...If you were half as tech savvy as you claim you are, you wouldn't be sitting
behind a desk answering phone calls...I guess at least someone knew where you belong....

[$GTI07$]

Hey everyone

Hi.

[chris@revotechnik]

Seriously man, i don't even know who the f*ck you think you are and who crowned you "VAG King"

Quite a few ladies actually

As for who i think i am, that is easy. I KNOW I am the guy who has more knowledge on this subject then you. You can argue this until your fingers bleed but that is an actual fact.

And one last note...If you were half as tech savvy as you claim you are, you wouldn't be sitting
behind a desk answering phone calls...I guess at least someone knew where you belong....

Um you do realize being this savvy and knowledge about these vehicles is what got me this job right? I now get to do what i love and I don't have to pick grease out from under my nails unless I want to work on a car for pleasure. I AM Revo Tech support for two entire continents, because I know what I am doing. I was offered a position that was great enough to get me to sell my house and move 800 miles from the nearest family member. You don't get offered those things because they heard you could rotate tires well. When I had my shop and was a Revo dealer I was actually already assisting Revo at times with technical support issues that the staff at the time couldn't figure out. So yeah I was actually hired because I am the best at what I do.

[GolfRS]

Quite a few ladies actually

As for who i think i am, that is easy. I KNOW I am the guy who has more knowledge on this subject then you. You can argue this until your fingers bleed but that is an actual fact.



Um you do realize being this savvy and knowledge about these vehicles is what got me this job right? I now get to do what i love and I don't have to pick grease out from under my nails unless I want to work on a car for pleasure. I AM Revo Tech support for two entire continents, because I know what I am doing. I was offered a position that was great enough to get me to sell my house and move 800 miles from the nearest family member. You don't get offered those things because they heard you could rotate tires well. When I had my shop and was a Revo dealer I was actually already assisting Revo at times with technical support issues that the staff at the time couldn't figure out. So yeah I was actually hired because I am the best at what I do.

That is amazing man !!!! Brought a tear to my eye...

Now all you have to do is work on your MANNERS....and you are good to go....

[gtiguy12]

As a VW tech, I can say Chris is 100% on in terms of a normal fuel trim. anything over a 10% deviation may be a cause for concern, If there is a issue present, but it is close to impossible to run at 0 adaptation all the time. -3 is a great number compared to +25.

[chris@revotechnik]

That is amazing man !!!!

Now all you have to do is work on your MANNERS....and you are good to go....

I do at times yes, but not for you because 100% of the problems right now are caused by you and how you are handling this and any other interaction we have.

I did nothing out of line in my response, I explained what the actual manufacture allows and says is good. You then proceeded to flip out and make anything I say personal. You continued to ruin this thread because you have some issue with me and anyone else who likes to actually make sure the correct information is posted. Everyone of your posts that you have made is evidence that you don't actually give a crap about what you say or what anyone can possibly learn and take away from a thread and is simply you trying to one time make me look like i am wrong. You have been trying for years and have been failing for years. Each attempt only makes you look more and more pathetic so I suggest you stop sooner than later.


Now we have gone on for a page just continuing to show your lack of knowledge on the subject, are you done yet and can the grown ups get back to properly diagnosing their cars?

[GolfRS]

As a VW tech, I can say Chris is 100% on in terms of a normal fuel trim. anything over a 10% deviation may be a cause for concern, If there is a issue present, but it is close to impossible to run at 0 adaptation all the time. -3 is a great number compared to +25.

And what if there is a sudden change in trims that might indicate hardware malfunction.

Even if that is within the 3% that is mentioned, isn't that cause enough to further
investigate any possible issue ?

My argument is not a certain number, but a sudden not seen before change.

THAT is what Chris simply doesn't want to understand.

[gtiguy12]

And what if there is a sudden change in trims that might indicate hardware malfunction.

A Hardware malfunction isn't going to fix itself. the rest of the sensors will step up to the plate in this instance and set a check engine light indicating which systems have been affected. Will these faults directly tell you the malfunction? maybe, maybe not, But a good tech can make sense on the data and start a diagnostic path to correct the problem.

[GolfRS]

I do at times yes, but not for you because 100% of the problems right now are caused by you and how you are handling this and any other interaction we have.

I did nothing out of line in my response, I explained what the actual manufacture allows and says is good. You then proceeded to flip out and make anything I say personal. You continued to ruin this thread because you have some issue with me and anyone else who likes to actually make sure the correct information is posted. Everyone of your posts that you have made is evidence that you don't actually give a crap about what you say or what anyone can possibly learn and take away from a thread and is simply you trying to one time make me look like i am wrong. You have been trying for years and have been failing for years. Each attempt only makes you look more and more pathetic so I suggest you stop sooner than later.


Now we have gone on for a page just continuing to show your lack of knowledge on the subject, are you done yet and can the grown ups get back to properly diagnosing their cars?

Besides your obvious ego trippin, you also seem to be suffering from a severe
case of "Delusional Disorder"...And that is MY job to know.

[chris@revotechnik]

My argument is not a certain number, but a sudden not seen before change.

No that was NOT your initial comment that started this crap storm

-3.1% shows the car is still pulling fuel, indicating a rich condition.

It may not be enough to trigger a CEL but still shows everything isn't perfect.

Yes everything is perfect, this is what you said initial this is what i corrected, bob corrected, J corrected, probably others who got lost in the mess corrected and now this guy corrected.

How many more factory trained techs is it going to take until you understand this?

The car in question you were responding to went from having a rich code and fuel trims that were (i don't recall specifics) pushing the limits of their range if not at them. He fixed something and his trims were now -3.1%. Which is all we keep saying that this is 100% acceptable. The actual trims in question were NOT that of a car that went a whopping 4% sweep from 1% to -3% (still 100% acceptable) which means apparently injector failure and the engine is about to explode in your world. He was posting results showing that what he changed fixed his problem. If he was on the book and doing this for VW reporting back to one of their engineers they would have said awesome its fixed ship the car. He reported the internet equal to that based on knowing what is actually correct.

Not one person is saying that if a car does some huge sweeping change that this does not indicate a problem. But even a car that is normally at 15% that went to 19% doesn't necessarily mean anything worse happened. those types of swings are expected and normal. Which is again also why -3% is absolutely acceptable.

THAT is what Chris simply doesn't want to understand.

Give it a rest you are a child.

[chris@revotechnik]

Besides your obvious ego trippin, you also seem to be suffering from a severe
case of "Delusional Disorder"...And that is MY job to know.

Delusional? Everything is documented on this and other forums for anyone to read.

As for the ego trip, I'm sorry but you demanded that i explain how and why i know things all the while attempting to attack my intelligence and skills. Then said I was wrong, lying and now saying I have an ego trip when I did what you asked. Apparently now people can't even answer your questions without you attacking them.

All this because now at least 4 people tried to help you understand fuel trims better. This is pathetic.

[GolfRS]

A Hardware malfunction isn't going to fix itself. the rest of the sensors will step up to the plate in this instance and set a check engine light indicating which systems have been affected. Will these faults directly tell you the malfunction? maybe, maybe not, But a good tech can make sense on the data and start a diagnostic path to correct the problem.

If you are referring to the trims returning to "normal", no this is not what i meant.

But trims can be diagnostic tool even if within acceptable limits ?

Especially when changing suddenly without any external modification to the engine.
A slightly leaking injector for example might cause a rich condition, offset the trims, and still
not cause a CEL or effect the engine's function in such a drastic manner,that even
a tech wouldn't notice.The ECU will just try and do its job maintaining a
normal function (which is exactly what the trims are showing), thus "prolonging"
the failed part's life up to the point it no longer functions well enough for the ECU
to be able to compensate.

To you as a VW tech, does that sound wrong ?

[Arin@APR]

The Lambda sensor reads the air fuel ratio.

A desired air fuel ratio is perscribed by a calibrator within your ECU.

The ECU calculated a desired air fuel ratio based on many different variables.


Based on variables such as mass airflow as detected by the MAF sensor, rail pressure as reported by the rail pressure sensor, injector size as specified in the ECU by the calibrator and injector on time (how long the injector is spraying spraying), the ECU will try to match the correct amount of fuel based on the air that should be entering the cylinders.

The Lambda, or oxygen sensor will detect what the air fuel ratio actually was.

If it's not on target, fuel trims will adjust in an attempt to get it right on the next injection pulse. This process repeats itself all the time and is constantly adjusting.

In a perfect world, everything would be perfect. Every sensor would read perfectly. Everything in the ECU would be sized correctly and calculated correctly. Every injector would inject exactly the same amount of fuel no matter what. Even in this "Perfect" situation where all hardware and software is perfect, the ECU cannot and does not know the quality of fuel injected at any moment.

Not all fuel has the same air fuel ratio for lambda 1, or stoich. Fuel with ethanol is not identical to fuel without it. Oxygenated fuel is different than non oxygenated fuel. Low grade fuel differs from high octane race fuel.

Because of this, even in the perfect hardware/software world, fuel trims need to exist, and will not be 0% all of the time. 3% is normal.

Furthermore, fuel trims exist so GolfRS can argue with everyone and be incorrect.

Thank you.

-Arin

[GolfRS]

No that was NOT your initial comment that started this crap storm

See you STILL don't understand.I didn't say -3% is not acceptable.What i said is it means the ECU is compensating for SOMETHING.And that something might as well be a possible failing hardware.
In your "support" world, a car has to go to -+26% until you even bother to answer any questions.

Yes everything is perfect, this is what you said initial this is what i corrected, bob corrected, J corrected, probably others who got lost in the mess corrected and now this guy corrected.

No everything is not perfect simply because the ECU is taking action to make sure the engine
"copes" with what it gets.This is the role of the ECU.IF it wasn't for that, cars would only work one
way, use one type and quality of gas, work only at sea level etc etc, but that is IRRELEVANT.
I never said adaptation should not exist or that it's bad.But SOME times it might help you diagnose
issues that might be masked by the adapting power of the ECU, way before the reach the limit of
adaptation (which would mean nothing more than that the ECU has done all it could, and next step
might be a possible engine malfunction/failure).

How many more factory trained techs is it going to take until you understand this?

Wait...is that counting you too... ??

The car in question you were responding to went from having a rich code and fuel trims that were (i don't recall specifics) pushing the limits of their range if not at them. He fixed something and his trims were now -3.1%. Which is all we keep saying that this is 100% acceptable. The actual trims in question were NOT that of a car that went a whopping 4% sweep from 1% to -3% (still 100% acceptable) which means apparently injector failure and the engine is about to explode in your world. He was posting results showing that what he changed fixed his problem. If he was on the book and doing this for VW reporting back to one of their engineers they would have said awesome its fixed ship the car. He reported the internet equal to that based on knowing what is actually correct.

The car in question could also have had a lower deviation which could have indicated a FAILING
TB, and yet, the owner might not have noticed cause he was told IT'S NORMAL.Did you ever think of that ?THAT is what i am trying to say, and you just keep repeating VW specs like a parrot....
Is there a difference you are going to say ?Does it matter that he had to have his TB fail up to the
point it threw an error ?Isn't the end result the same ?Maybe, maybe not, cause a failing TB
may not break your engine, but a failing injector might...So no Chris, everything isn't perfect, unless you are "support" and don't want to be bothered that often...

Not one person is saying that if a car does some huge sweeping change that this does not indicate a problem. But even a car that is normally at 15% that went to 19% doesn't necessarily mean anything worse happened. those types of swings are expected and normal. Which is again also why -3% is absolutely acceptable.

Some parts fail progressively, and don't simply fall apart Chris.
Possible multiple failures might also "mask" what the ECU can and cannot see.
Can you be certain a failing O2 sensor is gonna be able to provide the
correct information to the ECU to adapt for an also failing injector ??
You don't need to see a +-24% deviation to figure out something is wrong.
Even a smaller deviation might show that either a failing part has been correctly
replaced, and also that a part is failing...

Give it a rest you are a child.

Yes mommy.Whatever you say.

[GolfRS]

The Lambda sensor reads the air fuel ratio.

A desired air fuel ratio is perscribed by a calibrator within your ECU.

The ECU calculated a desired air fuel ratio based on many different variables.


Based on variables such as mass airflow as detected by the MAF sensor, rail pressure as reported by the rail pressure sensor, injector size as specified in the ECU by the calibrator and injector on time (how long the injector is spraying spraying), the ECU will try to match the correct amount of fuel based on the air that should be entering the cylinders.

The Lambda, or oxygen sensor will detect what the air fuel ratio actually was.

If it's not on target, fuel trims will adjust in an attempt to get it right on the next injection pulse. This process repeats itself all the time and is constantly adjusting.

In a perfect world, everything would be perfect. Every sensor would read perfectly. Everything in the ECU would be sized correctly and calculated correctly. Every injector would inject exactly the same amount of fuel no matter what. Even in this "Perfect" situation where all hardware and software is perfect, the ECU cannot and does not know the quality of fuel injected at any moment.

Not all fuel has the same air fuel ratio for lambda 1, or stoich. Fuel with ethanol is not identical to fuel without it. Oxygenated fuel is different than non oxygenated fuel. Low grade fuel differs from high octane race fuel.

Because of this, even in the perfect hardware/software world, fuel trims need to exist, and will not be 0% all of the time. 3% is normal.

Furthermore, fuel trims exist so GolfRS can argue with everyone and be incorrect.

Thank you.

-Arin

Somehow i expected you (or at least those that write stuff down for you) to get this.

No one said trims should be stuck at 0, no one said -3% is not "normal", what is said
is that a sudden change in trims without modifying the engine might be an indicator
of a failing part, or in reverse, the return of the trims to a lower - or + value, might
be an indication a failing part was correctly replaced.

Can you go ask if at least this is right ??

Thanks.

[GolfRS]

Delusional? Everything is documented on this and other forums for anyone to read.

As for the ego trip, I'm sorry but you demanded that i explain how and why i know things all the while attempting to attack my intelligence and skills. Then said I was wrong, lying and now saying I have an ego trip when I did what you asked. Apparently now people can't even answer your questions without you attacking them.

I am actually trying to find something that will work for you for both conditions but
i'm afraid you will have to get more than one medication.Let me look into it a little
more ok ?

All this because now at least 4 people tried to help you understand fuel trims better. This is pathetic.

You don't seem to understand i already know how trims work, and fail to understand what
i am still trying to make YOU understand.You are right.It is pathetic.

[chris@revotechnik]

Golfrs,

Where did I say I don't want to be bothered with any of this? I'm in this thread aren't I? I'm supporting customers over a simple 3% fuel adaptation discussion aren't I? I'm siting at my desk almost 2 hours after I got off work supporting customers.

If someone called and said their 3% fuel trims were a concern for them i would explain to them that this is spec and nothing to be worried about because their isn't. There is nothing to support there so why are you making this into some situation where I am evil and will refuse to support people? Do i have to go fly out to meet then and datalog their perfectly running car just to make you happy?

Where is this coming from other then proving you are just angry with me for no reason?




Oh and Arin just backed me(and the others) up so by the rules of the internet this automatically means when APR and Revo staff agree that the agreed upon point is now law and can no longer be argued against. If you even attempt to continue it is equal to you saying there is no gravity.

Arin also made an EXCELLENT point regarding fuel quality, ethanol content and the like which in the context of this actual post I wasn't even taking into consideration.

[Arin@APR]

Somehow i expected you (or at least those that write stuff down for you) to get this.

No one said trims should be stuck at 0, no one said -3% is not "normal", what is said
is that a sudden change in trims without modifying the engine might be an indicator
of a failing part, or in reverse, the return of the trims to a lower - or + value, might
be an indication a failing part was correctly replaced.

Can you go ask if at least this is right ??

Thanks.

Sorry, I have photos to take, so I'll be unable to ask someone to write it for me.

[GolfRS]

Sorry, I have photos to take, so I'll be unable to ask someone to write it for me.

Actually.......i giggled !!!

[chris@revotechnik]

No one said trims should be stuck at 0, no one said -3% is not "normal", what is said
is that a sudden change in trims without modifying the engine might be an indicator
of a failing part, or in reverse, the return of the trims to a lower - or + value, might
be an indication a failing part was correctly replaced.

No that is NOT what is said, in fact is isn't even what YOU said which is what started this whole thing. If you can't even recall what you typed in this thread and has been quoted several times you really shouldn't be suggesting medications for others..

-3.1% shows the car is still pulling fuel, indicating a rich condition.

It may not be enough to trigger a CEL but still shows everything isn't perfect.

no to expand on what Arin route it shows that you went to a station with less ethanol this week and is normal.

Not to mention the fact that this whole thing started when someone actually did make a large mechanical change and this was the corrected fuel trims after that change.

So not only was your initial point wrong but your now made up secondary point after you were proven wrong is also wrong.


not one single person in this thread has ever said that if you were driving around on monday with a steady 3% trim and then tuesday you are at -20% that it doesn't indicate a problem. All you have done is continue to change your scenario so that hopefully someone will agree with you which you will then twist some how into me being wrong.

[GolfRS]

Golfrs,

Where did I say I don't want to be bothered with any of this? I'm in this thread aren't I? I'm supporting customers over a simple 3% fuel adaptation discussion aren't I? I'm siting at my desk almost 2 hours after I got off work supporting customers.

If someone called and said their 3% fuel trims were a concern for them i would explain to them that this is spec and nothing to be worried about because their isn't. There is nothing to support there so why are you making this into some situation where I am evil and will refuse to support people? Do i have to go fly out to meet then and datalog their perfectly running car just to make you happy?

But that is not the case in question.What if someone called you and said i have been checking and logging my trims, and today for the first i noticed a -3% deviation whereas before it was always
at +3% .Would you also say to him not to worry ?You don't have to always calm people down
cause they think their engine is going to explode.People might also be calling you because they
find that change weird (most Revo customers are pretty diligent when it comes to logging their cars).
Why would you prevent that guy for looking for a possible vacuum leak ?Or a bad sensor ?
I never said you should go under their cars for an average 3% deviation.But reassuring someone
the is "within VW spec" isn't the best advice when something might be going on.

...you are just angry with me for no reason?

I have a reason.I don't like your attitude.Is that ok ?

Oh and Arin just backed me(and the others) up so by the rules of the internet this automatically means when APR and Revo staff agree that the agreed upon point is now law and can no longer be argued against. If you even attempt to continue it is equal to you saying there is no gravity.

I have no answer to that.I would have to look it up and get back to you.

[GolfRS]

All you have done is continue to change your scenario so that hopefully someone will agree with you which you will then twist some how into me being wrong.

Now if that plot doesn't need medicating i don't know what does.

Are you sleeping well at nights Chris ?You know sleep deprivation
might cause that too and all you need might be a good night's sleep.
You could be lucky.

[staulkor]

Once again you fail to answer my question.

You have a car that under "standard operating conditions" would show a 0.5% trim.
That car suddenly shows a -3% deviation.According to you, this is "within spec", and
no one should take notice.The following day(s) the car experiences an engine failure
due to a failed injector.The owner comes to you and tells you he is going to sue your ass
cause you told him it was nothing, and within VW spec.Do you honestly believe
you can convince him he couldn't have prevented that by further investigating the
sudden change in the trims ??

I don't know what kind of cars you have been working on Chris, but i promise you
i wouldn't let you go near mine...EVER...

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

I think GolfRS just has a complete lack of understand of basic engineering principles...

Also, when Chris and Arin agree, you know GolfRS is 110% wrong.

[mrbikle]

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

I think GolfRS just has a complete lack of understand of basic engineering principles...

Also, when Chris and Arin agree, you know GolfRS is 110% wrong.

lmfao.

[GolfRS]

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

I think GolfRS just has a complete lack of understand of basic engineering principles...

Also, when Chris and Arin agree, you know GolfRS is 110% wrong.

Could you explain how you reached that conclusion ?

I couldn't care less what you think i do or do not know,
but i definitely would like to see what YOU know that
has guided you to that conclusion.

Do you have anything technical to offer to the discussion
other than kissing up to the advertisers ??

I'm willing to listen.

[chris@revotechnik]

Now if that plot doesn't need medicating i don't know what does.

Really because we all just read it, I couldn't make up the crap you just spewed.

[chris@revotechnik]

I'm willing to listen.

No clearly you are not...

-3.1 @ PT is not bad its about normal with RS4 injectors. +/- 20 triggers CEL and running that rich is gonna cause knock / timing pull.

-3% absolutely within spec, a bone stock car that rolled off the assembly line this morning wouldn't even be looked at for having -3% fuel trims. + or - 10% Vw won't even bat an eye at.

In fact VW even says if your fuel trims don't move from 0 something is broken.

Now what VW told us in the engine diagnostics class(not that everything they say is 100% true) was that you have a normal operating window of +3/-3% that is acceptable baseline for a good engine. By good engine, that means the "Suck/Squeeze/Bang/Blow" components needed for combustion are all there and working properly. By the +3/-3, that means you should constantly see MVB 33(Front O2) switching between ranges of +3 and -3 on a rapid basis at idle.

As a VW tech, I can say Chris is 100% on in terms of a normal fuel trim. anything over a 10% deviation may be a cause for concern, If there is a issue present, but it is close to impossible to run at 0 adaptation all the time. -3 is a great number compared to +25.

Because of this, even in the perfect hardware/software world, fuel trims need to exist, and will not be 0% all of the time. 3% is normal.