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    Thread: Juiceless in Seattle? The Emerald City gets some charging stations and joins the Electric Highway care of EV Project

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      06-13-2011 03:42 PM #76
      New York Solar Electric Vehicle Charging Station

      Sandwiched in between two buildings





      Made out of recycled shipping containers

      Last edited by audifans; 06-13-2011 at 08:51 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Blackohio
      Built in boost gauge in the dash. One of my friends at the time saw that turbo was on theoretical empty and asked if we needed to stop and get more turbo. I gave it gas and he was like wait, its full now. Had to quickly explain the process.
      Quote Originally Posted by Calcvictim View Post
      so basically the OP has no clue about anything and just posts out of his ass?

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      06-13-2011 04:47 PM #77
      Here's something completely different. Charging without the plug. Inductive power transfer


      Wireless Charging Pads a Big Promise For Electric Vehicles




      HaloIPT and engineering giant ARUP have developed a wireless charging system where cars simply position themselves above a charging pad rather than using a conventional plug just like a giant Scalextric.

      Cars are fitted with a receiving pad can be charged via a magnetic field created using an advanced version of the Inductive Power Transfer (IPT) technology commonly found in electric toothbrushes. Electricity can be transferred over gaps as large as 400mm, meaning that recharging pads could feasibly be fitted beneath asphalt roads. Poor parkers can position their vehicles 250mm either side of the pad, which would then power up the car overnight without drivers having to remember to plug it in.

    3. Member Merc-MarkO's Avatar
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      06-13-2011 04:51 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by unimogken View Post
      My hope is that all of the meth heads up here in WA will take all of the unattended heavy extension cords and sell the copper for meth money.

      You know that's a given.
      Where is Kyron ??? http://www.bringkyronhome.org/
      Support our troops, bless the fallen.

      Quote Originally Posted by genjy View Post
      Yes, there is a high chance that the tractor trailer was the one going 160MPH, not the Porsche GT2 RS.

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      06-13-2011 05:01 PM #79


      Solar Groves, which can be installed in parking lots over the world to generate electricity not only for nighttime illumination but also charge electric vehicles using clean energy. The tree-like structures make use of highly efficient PV modules and convert parking lots from an eyesore to a next-gen farm where green energy can easily be accessed.


      Last edited by Powderkeg; 06-13-2011 at 05:04 PM.

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      06-13-2011 05:41 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by Uberhare View Post
      I'm also designing several projects in Spokane where to obtain LEED Gold status (green building design) they are required to install at least one "PEP" charging station for EV vehicles.
      Your projects dont HAVE to install the charging stations to get gold status. There are other ways to get credits towards Gold certification.

      First of all, no project HAS To pursue the Low Emitting and Fuel Efficient Vehicle credit at all. It's a choice. It's not a requirement. Second, there are other ways to receive that credit. You can merely provide perferred parking for any LEV totalling 5% of the parking on site. The option you are referring to requires providing alternative fueling stations for 3% of the total parking vehicle capacity. Again, there are two options for compliance and no one is forcing you to install these to get LEED Gold.


      Unrelated news.....
      Anyone catch the latest study that found the majority of so-called "green buildings" are actually causing serious health and environmental problems? The huge push for being "green" and energy efficient is turning out to be more of a problem than most people realize.
      I just read your study and foxnews link. It's really not about green buildings. It's about ignorant people hermetically sealing their (usually older) buildings so they dont have water/air/energy leaks. Sustainable building practices do not suggest this. The push towards high performance buildings which are sustainable and efficient does not suggest that you build a completly air tight building. On the contrary.

      All buildings leak. You are fooling yourself if you think you can build a tight envelope that nothing can get into. No matter what you do, water will find its way in. It's what you do with the water once it finds its way in is what is important. So if water gets in, there is no event where mold or other contaminants can develop. This is just good construction and envelope design.

      Moreover, LEED and other green building guidelines require the introduction of fresh air for the building inhabitants for comfort and indoor air quality. In addition, one of the LEED credits require a building flush out of fresh air before the building is occupied to make sure any off gassing or other contaminant is removed from the building prior to its users moving in.

      LEED has a lot of faults, sure, and sometimes green building is 6 of one, half dozen of the other. But your comment about this study and how green buildings are unhealthy and chronically sick for its occupants due to the measures partaken to build them is simply not true.

      Misleading headline is misleading.
      Last edited by ModernMaven; 06-13-2011 at 06:03 PM.
      "If I have any beliefs about immortality, it is that certain dogs I have known will go to heaven, and very,very few people." -- James Thurber

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      06-13-2011 06:17 PM #81
      For the E-Scooter and Segway crowd.



      Providing power for the small electrics in Frankfort.


      Evergreen Solar has installed its new solar charging station in a high-traffic area in Frankfurt, Germany. The solar “fuel” station provides free battery charging for small-scale electric vehicles including Velotaxis, Segways, electric bikes and scooters.
      Quote Originally Posted by wantacad View Post
      hey now, unbolting the rear bumper, dropping the beam and gas tank to change out an exhaust hanger is perfectly normal.

    7. Senior Member You'reDrunk's Avatar
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      06-13-2011 06:36 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by ModernMaven View Post
      Misleading headline is misleading.
      the media lies????
      Larry
      Demokratikally Elekted Minister of Shekels of the Independent People's Republik of Offtopikstan
      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      The boobs. I am waiting on the boobs here.

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      06-13-2011 07:29 PM #83
      Interesting job rehires here

      Rousch making Blink Chargers


      Roush Churning Out Blink EV Chargers


      by Pete Danko, February 17th, 2011
      Ecotality was handed the biggest bundle of federal funding to get an electric vehicle (EV) charging infrastructure in place this year, around $115 million. Now that money is working its way down the line: The automotive engineering company Roush has officially kicked off mass manufacturing of Blink Level 2 Charging Stations, which will form the backbone of Ecotality’s envisioned network.
      Roush is building the devices at “an existing automotive facility” in Livonia, Mich., “that had been modified to now support the developing EV industry,” Ecotality said. As a result, an unspecified number of workers who had been laid off were rehired.


      The companies actually hooked up in July 2010 but of course demand for EV charging stations was minimal then. Now Chevrolet Volts and Nissan Leafs are entering the market, and there could be a combined 40,000 of those EVs on the roads by the end of the year.
      Ecotality’s goal with the federally backed EV Project is to install nearly 15,000 Level 2 charging stations, which supply 240 volts of household electricity to the EV’s onboard charger. Ecotality touts the Blink as a better product than other charging stations because its “advanced energy monitoring capabilities … allow homeowners to optimize their energy usage and charge their vehicles when rates are lowest.”
      New EV drivers in 17 cities and major metropolitan areas in six states and the District of Columbia can apply for a free charging station on the EV Project website.
      Last edited by Buckaroo banzai; 06-13-2011 at 07:33 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Will Rogers
      Never slap a man who is chewing tobacco.

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      06-13-2011 08:41 PM #84
      Talk about using some electricity

      Wind powered hot rod




      Retro Electro is a 1958 Chevrolet Apache half ton step side pickup with a difference. It is totally powered by electricity. And it is used daily to deliver beer



      Eventually, 24 lithium batteries from China were delivered along with the 100-horsepower electric motor and the charging controllers.

      Mizsak, a mechanic for more than 60 years, turned his skills to putting the package on the road.

      Meanwhile, Kiraly approached his condo strata with a proposal to help him put a zero- emissions vehicle on the road, which would effectively be wind-powered.

      First he convinced them to let him install a 220 volt/30A power outlet in his underground parking spot to recharge the truck’s batteries.

      Then he told them he would be getting the electricity for Retro Electro from Bullfrog Power, a company that puts wind-generated electricity into the power grid.


      So, the carbon trade-off completes the circle of zero emissions and brings wind power into the equation.

      To the best of his knowledge, Kiraly has designed the first wind-powered hotrod.

      And that’s how Steam Whistle Pilsner is being marketed and delivered in the Metro Vancouver area, using a half-century old truck with zero emissions and no carbon footprint. But this bright green hauler is also a pavement mauler.
      “It will do a complete burnout from a standing start and travels comfortably at around 90 kilometres per hour,” Kiraly says. “Because of its city use, I opted for grunt and not top speed.”

      The electric engine has direct drive with no transmission and the rear-end has low gears for takeoff.

      With 465 lbs.-ft. of torque, this green machine can move. It uses the same electric engine that powers some of the big Purolator vans delivering in the Vancouver area.



      Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/technolo...#ixzz1PCqiKolz


      Quote Originally Posted by cartalk
      "As near as I could tell, the car was built from compressed rust."

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      06-13-2011 11:01 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by audifans View Post



      Lucky girl.

      She gets a free charger.

      Quote Originally Posted by Egz View Post
      It wasn't free. We paid for it.

      eh... the statement was that Heidi gets a freebie charger. Technically correct.

      And granted, there is no such thing as a free lunch for the rest of the tax base.

      At any rate, Blink Charger is a must for the Leaf owner

      Quote Originally Posted by Blackohio
      Built in boost gauge in the dash. One of my friends at the time saw that turbo was on theoretical empty and asked if we needed to stop and get more turbo. I gave it gas and he was like wait, its full now. Had to quickly explain the process.
      Quote Originally Posted by Calcvictim View Post
      so basically the OP has no clue about anything and just posts out of his ass?

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      06-14-2011 01:50 AM #86
      Another shot of the Steven's Pass EV charger location



      A Nissan LEAF charges from one of two Stevens Pass charging stations during the opening ceremony last week.

      Stevens Pass, a well known Pacific Northwest ski resort popular with the denizens of Seattle, Washington, has installed two Level 2, 240 V electric car charging stations—making it one of the first, if not the first, ski resort in the United States to do so. The stations also make Stevens Pass the first business on U.S. Route 2 to support plans to make that green and lush scenic mountain corridor EV-tourist friendly.
      Quote Originally Posted by alleghenyman View Post
      All of the rust, bondo, and patchwork done with old street signs gives them the crash safety of a cake decoration.

    12. Member Sledge's Avatar
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      06-14-2011 07:50 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by Buckaroo banzai View Post
      Roush making Blink Chargers
      Quite a change. At the local mall they have a bunch of Fords located among the shops including a 540hp Stage 3 Roush Mustang.
      "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
      - Doctor Who (Fourth Doctor) "Face of Evil"

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      06-14-2011 09:24 AM #88
      San Francisco City Hall

      No charge to charge up till 2013



      “I wasn't trying to wreck him, I just wanted to rattle his cage.”... Dale Earnhardt
      Quote Originally Posted by porridgehead
      It's all about the tires. I drove my M3 in the snow. With the summer tires on, it was the safest car in the world in the snow. In fact, it was a statue. You could not make it move with half an inch of snow on the ground.

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      06-14-2011 10:35 AM #89
      Highway 101, Salinas


      Quote Originally Posted by Surf Green View Post
      It's not hard to tell when a driver is texting. If I can do it while driving a manual, eating a cheeseburger AND loading a shotgun... the average driver, who is admittedly much smarter, and more coordinated than me, should be capable of seeing it too.

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      06-14-2011 11:29 AM #90




      more for the small e traffic crowd



      Designed by Michael Scherer from Brixen, the E-Move Charging Station is equipped with eight mono-crystalline photovoltaic modules, which collectively supply 1.76KWp of solar power. With further refinements, the designers are hoping to generate about 2000KWh of electricity from the panels over the year.
      Quote Originally Posted by alleghenyman View Post
      All of the rust, bondo, and patchwork done with old street signs gives them the crash safety of a cake decoration.

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      06-14-2011 12:28 PM #91


      I have a feeling there are going to be a lot shade structures going up that produce power.

      This isn't going to provide much shade however.
      Quote Originally Posted by mitch hedberg
      I drive a rental car, I don't know what's going on with it, right? So a lot of times I'll drive for like 10 miles with the emergency brake on. That doesn't say a lot for me, but it really doesn't say a lot for the emergency brake.
      Quote Originally Posted by Robstr View Post
      How hard is that to understand without getting your panties in a bunch?
      Surely some of you guys managed to make it out of middle school.

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      06-14-2011 01:52 PM #92
      Solar canopy charging station at OMSI



      OMSI Solar Canopy - Electric Vehicle Charging

      The new solar canopy at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI) powers an electric vehicle charging station and an e-bike charging station.

      Shown here during the dedication ceremony is a Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid conversion charging next to a vintage 1920 Milburn Light Electric. At right are several electric assist bicycles from Sanyo, which also manufactured the solar panels
      Last edited by Blunderbuss; 06-14-2011 at 01:54 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Barry2952
      I dragged her back to see the $4,500 Pacer. She hated it, but we bought it. She went home and cried. (when we sold it) my wife put an ad in the newspaper. A woman came out to look at the car. She said, "I really didn't go out looking for a Pacer." My wife replied, "Lady, nobody goes out looking for a Pacer. It's eighteen hundred bucks, take it or leave it!" The woman took it and drove away smiling. My wife cried.

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      06-14-2011 06:58 PM #93
      So I guess the day wouldn't be complete without another story of a Nissan Leaf.

      New book expected shortly:

      "Tales of the Electric Highway............in detail"




      June 14, 2011 - 1:00 P.M.


      Nissan Leaf secretly leaks driver location, speed to websites

      While getting the equivalent of 99 miles per gallon might seem like great reason to purchase a Nissan Leaf plug-in hatchbacks, a security eco-geek discovered the 100% electric car secretly shares precise location information with websites accessed through its built-in RSS reader.

      "Nissan's Carwings system connects all Nissan Leafs to a network, wirelessly feeding their energy economy statistics to a central server," explained Mashable. The wirelessly connected electric cars cannot communicate with each other directly, but it does "crowdsource" to see how drivers compare to each other in terms of energy economy. Carwings [PDF] also supplies Leaf owners with the ability to keep up with the news via a built-in RSS reader.

      Seattle-based Casey Halverson reported,"The Leaf Carwings system is a GSM cellular connection to the internet for providing voluntary telemetry information to Nissan, new charging stations, competitive driver rankings, and even RSS feeds." But after Halverson played around with his new toy and RSS feeds, he discovered his personal location data was leaking, like longitude and latitude. His speed and destination was also secretly being "provided to any third party RSS provider you configure: CNN, Fox News, Weather Channel, it doesn't matter!"

      After a bit more tinkering, he determined that his precise geographic coordinates, speed, direction, and destination was sent in clear text whether he wanted it shared or not. "There is no way to prevent this data from being sent, nor does Nissan or CARWINGS warn you that all of your location data can be flung off to random third parties." He added that Carwings provides "real-time data at that moment where you are located."

      Halverson created a Car Spy RSS proof-of-concept so other Leaf drivers can test it out. The video below explains the privacy liability of location, speed, direction and navigation destination being sent to RSS sites and how you can write your own location-based RSS feeds.
      Quote Originally Posted by vwlarry View Post
      That's the dumbest goddamned bunch of jerkoffs I have EVER seen.
      Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
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      06-14-2011 07:30 PM #94
      I wonder if people will start developing charging etiquette.

      Such as, you see a leaf charging and it's at about 95% and your MiEv only has 10%. Do you remove the charger from the leaf and plug it into your car? Or will people start getting into fights over charging?

      I know I'm just over thinking.

    20. Senior Member You'reDrunk's Avatar
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      06-14-2011 08:08 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by samc View Post
      I wonder if people will start developing charging etiquette.

      Such as, you see a leaf charging and it's at about 95% and your MiEv only has 10%. Do you remove the charger from the leaf and plug it into your car? Or will people start getting into fights over charging?

      I know I'm just over thinking.
      I was thinking of something similar...you car is plugged in and done charging.... no other stations are available at that location...do you go out and move your car or just leave it and not allow another the opportunity to charge?
      Larry
      Demokratikally Elekted Minister of Shekels of the Independent People's Republik of Offtopikstan
      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      The boobs. I am waiting on the boobs here.

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      06-14-2011 10:52 PM #96
      ^ I was wondering the same thing about how to deal with a traffic jam at the charging stations

      Another poster talked about the vulnerability of the placements.

      Here is one in Hillsboro, Oregon. The Civic Center.. Looks easily run over by inattentive drivers (based on the goofiness we've seen on camera for errant parkers and drivers who blast right thru the fronts of buildings.




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      06-15-2011 01:26 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by BumpSteer View Post
      I'm always curious about what it's like dealing with plugging in electricity out in the pouring rain.




      http://www.autosavant.com/2011/01/25...-is-very-safe/


      Don’t be Shocked, But EV Charging is Very Safe




      Imagine the following scenario. In rainy Portland, Oregon, a Leaf driver unplugs her Nissan from the overnight charger in her garage and heads out on a rainy morning to drop her children off at the Montessori school, stops by her favorite Fair Trade coffee shop, then heads over the the neighborhood natural-foods store to pick up some locally grown, organic vegetables for the evening’s vegan dinner. Spying the EV-only parking spots near the front of the store, she wheels her car across the sodden parking lot in the rain. Stepping out of her Leaf, she is dismayed to find her Birkenstock immersed in a deep puddle. Grabbing her latte in one hand she heads to the front of the car to plug in the SAE J1772 standard vehicle connector from the store’s public charger. As she stands in a puddle in the rain, plugs in her car, and initiates charging while wiping a wet lock of hair from her face, she doesn’t give a thought to the dangers of using this high-powered electrical device outdoors.
      Fortunately, somebody else has. Over the course of the past several years, electrical safety standards have been developed for electric vehicle supply equipment and chargers.
      In the US, applicable national standards include UL Subject 2594 (Outine of Investigation for Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment) and UL 2202 (Electric Vehicle Charging System Equipment); in Canada, there is a clause dedicated to Electric Vehicle Chargers in standard CSA C22.2 No. 107.1 (General Use Power Supplies). Those standards are used in accordance with the National Electrical Code in the US, and the Canadian Electrical Code in Canada. EV supply equipment that has has been tested by an OSHA-accredited Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) to the above standards will bear a certification or Listing Mark to show it meets the standards.


      Electric vehicle charging systems come in three different power levels,, commonly referred to as Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3. Levels 1 and 2 are defined in standard SAE J1772 (the vehicle connector specification). Level 1 supply is the term for connecting the vehicle to a 120 VAC, 15 A or 20 A branch circuit (which typically gives a full charge in 10-12 hours). Level 2 supply is from a 220-240 VAC, 30 A circuit, which is the same type of electrical circuit employed by a household electrical clothes dryer; this gives a full charge in about 4-6 hours.
      Level 3 supply (called DC Fast Charge) denotes a higher charging voltage or current, though it isn’t actually defined in SAE J1772. Nissan’s Level 3 charging, which is an option in the higher trim level Leaf SL, has a maximum voltage of 500 VDC, maximum current 125 A DC, with maximum power 50 kW and uses a charging protocol known as CHAdeMO (Charge de Move), which is a Level 3 protocol (and proposed standard) shared with the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, Peugeot iON, Subaru Plug-In Stella, and the Swiss EV Protoscar LAMPO2.




      You may notice there is a subtle terminology difference between supply equipment and charging equipment. Supply equipment gives AC (alternating current) power to a vehicle, which in turn uses its own on-board charging equipment to recharge the batteries. Charging equipment is the circuitry that turns AC power into DC voltage to recharge the batteries; both the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt have onboard chargers, for use with Level 1 or Level 2 supply equipment. Note that the Leaf can be ordered with a factory-optional Level 3 charging input which provides a DC input to more quickly recharge its batteries from a dedicated power source.

      Both Levels 1 and 2 charging use the industry standard SAE J1772 EV connector. The SAE J1772 connector is designed with a grounding conductor, two current-carrying conductors, and two smaller communication pins. The CHAdeMO charging protocol for Level 3 charging employs a custom connector (rather than the J1772 connector) to handle up to 200 A charging current and also facilitate communication between the has developed a connector with power pins, four analog signal pins, two CAN digital signal pins and one ground pin which are implemented so that the control signals can be transferred properly between the vehicle and the charger, to ensure proper grounding prior to energizing the charging circuit.


      Whether using a Level 1, Level 2, or Level 3 charger, circuitry in the supply equipment as well as in the vehicle’s onboard charger won’t allow charging to commence if proper grounding of the vehicle to the charging circuit is not present. This ground-proving circuitry is the system’s first line of defense against the possibility of providing an electric shock in the event of a fault. The second line of defense is a Charge Circuit Interrupting Device, or CCID.

      Each of the safety standards above specifies one or more mandatory CCIDs, depending on the power level of the equipment. The CCID may be a ground-fault protective device (similar to what is employed on outdoor receptacles), differential current sensors, or similar technology. The CCIDs for use in Electric Vehicle chargers/supply equipment have their own set of standards in the US, UL 2231-1 and 2231-2. Although these standards have similar test requirements to devices such as household GFCI devices, the test specifications differ somewhat, likely because of the fact that GFCI devices are typically installed in or adjacent to a structure, whereas vehicle supply/charging equipment can be installed outdoors in public locations such as curbside or in parking lots. In this case, use of a Listed GFCI device does not exempt the manufacturer of the charging equipment from any testing in UL 2231-2.
      With all of the testing specified by the above standards, getting an EV charger to market is not easy. Testing takes a long time and can be onerous. The standards were written as so many electrical safety standards are, to keep users who lack a working understanding of electricity safe while using the electrical equipment. The theoretical Leaf driver above, standing in sandals in a puddle of water while she plugs in her electric car, is unlikely to consider her safety in regards to charging her car. This is why safety standards must address that risk.

      When you see your first installed piece of EV supply equipment installed curbside in the near future, if you notice the certification mark of a NRTL, you can consider that it has been rigorously tested for electrical safety. Although standing in a puddle while wearing sandals to connect your electric vehicle for a charge isn’t recommended, the charge equipment has been designed to eliminate the risk of shock in such situations. Owners and drivers of EVs should have no need to worry about their safety, because safety standards and thorough testing have done the worrying – and addressed the issues – for them.

    23. Member Merc-MarkO's Avatar
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      06-15-2011 01:35 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by Powderkeg View Post
      ............ Here is one in Hillsboro, Oregon. The Civic Center.. Looks easily run over by inattentive drivers (based on the goofiness we've seen on camera for errant parkers and drivers who blast right thru the fronts of buildings. ............
      You might as well spell inattentive as O - r - e - g - o - n. This will soon be taken out.
      Where is Kyron ??? http://www.bringkyronhome.org/
      Support our troops, bless the fallen.

      Quote Originally Posted by genjy View Post
      Yes, there is a high chance that the tractor trailer was the one going 160MPH, not the Porsche GT2 RS.

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      06-15-2011 10:21 AM #99
      ^

      Quote Originally Posted by Powderkeg View Post

      Another poster talked about the vulnerability of the placements.

      Here is one in Hillsboro, Oregon. The Civic Center.. Looks easily run over by inattentive drivers (based on the goofiness we've seen on camera for errant parkers and drivers who blast right thru the fronts of buildings.



      No kidding ............mowed down most likely with something similar to this action.



      Last edited by lil' thumper; 06-15-2011 at 10:23 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Harry S. Truman
      Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day

    25. Member
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      1973 240 Z, early jetta TD
      06-15-2011 12:26 PM #100
      At least Orlando, Florida has a firm grip on their driving population.

      (First installation of these chargers in the U.S. by Charge Point)

      They put a couple of steel poles out in front of it for protection

      Makes more sense than leaving them unprotected




      Orlando, Fla., prepares to get nearly 300 EV charging stations within the next year as part of Coulomb Technology's ChargePoint America program.



      Coulomb's investment—made possible by $37 million in funding, $15 million from the Recovery Act's Transportation Electrification Initiative—will provide charging stations to nine metropolitan areas across the country. Coulomb will provide nearly 5,000 residential and public charging stations overall.
      Quote Originally Posted by David Votoupal
      The car sucked in every way imaginable, that it entered the annals as one of the worst cars ever built. It was shoddily built in a plant where labour relations were atrocious. It rusted like hell, and the aluminium engine had the durability of a soggy potato chip. Few cars could have been so thoroughly bad Despite the "explosion" controversy, the Ford Pinto compared favourably to the Vega, and that's saying something.

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