24v Quest for 550+HP experianced oppinions welcomed!

[joeeveryman87]

There is a couple different ways to look at building a VR Turbo. A complete blueprinted and balanced motor is not necessary for your power goals. 500-50whp has been easily attained and daily driven, as shown by posters in your thread. If you choose to build the motor for some cool-factor, that is a ton of money wasted, and better spent elsewhere. If you truly want to spend the money and have no nightmares or worries, I suggest choosing a very competent machine shop and having your crank knife-edged, and your entire rotating assembly balanced. You can always look for a bump in displacement, as I and many others have chosen 2.9L or 3L set-ups, with 82mm to 83.5mm bores. It is all about your goals and what helps you sleep at night. I have sunk a fair chunk of change into my motor, but originally I was simply going to run a spacer and be done with it. Look where that got me...the build on the motor added a year to my journey, and several extra trips to the machine shop for a micro-polishing on my crank to achieve the clearances I needed on my main bearings. Just know what you are getting yourself into, and make sure it is for the right reasons. The other big piece to keep in mind is if you go boom with a stock block, you lose alot less than going boom on a fuilly built monster. I just know that if i experience catastrophic failure on this block, there is no way in hell i would be sinking the same amount of time, energy, and money on another fully built money pit.

Thanks for the in-put "snithces" i really do appreciate it but just for the record im not spending 10,000+$ just for "cool points" trust me im not rich lol i just simply love VW i always have and finally got my hands on a 24v GTI which is a very BA motor, atleast to me and i want to build it up. Yes i know its not gonna be the fastest car EVER, yes its FWD (who caaaaaares), yes its gonna cost alot......for me! not for you lol so can everyone just accept my passion for VW and the VR6 24v GTI and give me some useful input please, btw thank you everyone that has already

[Snitches Get Stitches]

Ok...i can understand your desires are not for the "cool factor", but your going to spend a ton of cash for those bragging rights or epic VR6 status.(same thing as "cool factor" in my eyes)
Will you be assembling the motor yourself? Ever blueprint a motor before? Do you own the tools neccessary for the job?
For a decent machine shop to line bore, bore your cylinders, hone, etc. with you doing the assembly yourself you will still spend $1200-1500 just on the simple stuff. For them to assemble your short block for you, add $2k to your final price. Thats not counting work needed on the head. Everything for the 24valves is expensive in comparison to 12v or 1.8T parts. I think for what it will cost you and the extra hassle, stick with just a spacer on a stock block. These motors are still "Epic" with a spacer and boost....you will still be very happy and impressed with how it turns out.

[joeeveryman87]

i do realize the amount of time and money that is going to be involved ive been researching this project idea for some time now, i have a good machine shop (freind of mine) to do the machine work for much cheaper than you "quoted" im doing all the work myself with some freinds(all of which are no strangers to heavy engine work) besides the short block reasembly and obviously the machine work. if you think im just trying to be "cool" than thats your oppinion, but im 24years young haha and i think im past the teenage ****, it purely sm that ive always wanted to do, to be honest im not sure why your so concerned with the monetary part of this, its gonna be my money that im spending i realize it will cost somwhere between 10,000-15,000 but thats my problem. soooooooooooo back to why this thread has been started, for tips, pros, cons(besides cost) hidden problem factors anything anyone would like to let me and anyone elsewhos veiws this thread know about this project (BESIDES COST ISSUES) I KNOW ITS EXPENSIVE , there now that has been settled haha, btw snitches, i do appreciate your concern, thanks.

[One Gray GLI]

pros:
fun highway car.
sleeper status.
sounds amazing.
something not many people have.
reliable if put together correctly
stock drivability (good power under boost still, even with lower compression)

cons:
****ty platform, bad aftermarket support
money (sorry. lol)
traction issues
the thought you could have built something else more fun for cheaper.
VR6s are terrible to work on until you familiarize yourself with everything over time.

the negatives outweigh the positive. Trust me, I was in your shoes before. But you've got your heart set out on it, so just research, read build threads from the past, and try not to make mistakes that people have in the past

[joeeveryman87]

pros:
fun highway car.
sleeper status.
sounds amazing.
something not many people have.
reliable if put together correctly
stock drivability (good power under boost still, even with lower compression)

cons:
****ty platform, bad aftermarket support
money (sorry. lol)
traction issues
the thought you could have built something else more fun for cheaper.
VR6s are terrible to work on until you familiarize yourself with everything over time.

the negatives outweigh the positive. Trust me, I was in your shoes before. But you've got your heart set out on it, so just research, read build threads from the past, and try not to make mistakes that people have in the past

hahaha thanks man, and DAMN again with the money lol JK! oh just curious in your oppinion when you say sm more fun....you mean like RWD or AWD platform? if so i do agree with you, but FWD is what i have and i only paid 5k for it with 70,000miles on it. so spending all the extra money on sm else with a different drive system plus the turbo set-up just isnt feasible

[One Gray GLI]

haha, I mean..I'm just giving you the other side of the arguement. I love driving my car, it still puts a smile on my face..but realistically? I would have rather spent the money I spent on my mk4 on my STI... maybe a nice rotated kit for it.

[DannyLo]

haha, I mean..I'm just giving you the other side of the arguement. I love driving my car, it still puts a smile on my face..but realistically? I would have rather spent the money I spent on my mk4 on my STI... maybe a nice rotated kit for it.

That's all subjective man. I'd rather have a built 24v with a 3.2 head and high revving valvetrain even in a fwd golf than spend money on an STI.

Variety is the spice of life

[One Gray GLI]

well, good luck finding a trans/gear set that's strong enough to handle the torque over time, unless you plan on buying the o2m dogboxes that Ed has now. And that'll run you almost as much as your turbo kit alone. lol the fwd o2m gearbox won't take much more 550wtq when you actually have traction. It doesn't break as easily on a fwd platform because the tires just spin. -_-

This is why I'm saying, there's a reason everyone aims for 500whp on a 24v. It's a safe point where tons of crap doesn't break. Single walbro/Bosch 044 is still enough for that power goal, trans/axles, bottom end.. everything.

Whatever though, as I said, I do enjoy my car, I've just thought of everything i could that's negative. If I came here and said "omg 24vs are the greatest, gl" then I wouldn't be helping

[joeeveryman87]

"omg 24vs are the greatest, gl" then I wouldn't be helping [/QUOTE]

and you are right i wouldnt want everyone to come on here and tell me that all my ideas are 100% spot on and that, the 24v is bullet proof and the ****! , you need that contructive critizism to keep your head straight so thanks again "one gray GLI" on the other hand i think your not giving the stock O2M tranny the credit she deserves, a buddy of mine has pushed 547wtq and 568whp and that lil beast is still kickin, grant it he dosnt daily drive with the kind've boost to make that power but never the less it holds up just fine, just sayin

[joeeveryman87]

That's all subjective man. I'd rather have a built 24v with a 3.2 head and high revving valvetrain even in a fwd golf than spend money on an STI.

Variety is the spice of life

and i agree with you buddy, i'd much rather have a built 24vT with a 3.2 head even if it is FWD, than and STI or an Evo that everyone and there mom has, no offense to you STI or EVO guys there nice cars but to many people have them, i want sm a lil more rare even if it does cost me a few extra dollhairs

[One Gray GLI]

Sure, you can make power with the stock gears for a while but I'm sure your friend doesn't drive every day at that power level. you'll shear the teeth on 4th gear after a while, especially doing long pulls. My friend Dave with a turbo r32 with a t67 made over 600awhp/wtq and drove it around that power level often, really drives the car hard, and sheared 4th gear on stock gearbox, got a gearbox from Europe (DRP I believe, IIRC), broke that one the same way, and now he's on his 3rd gearbox. AND those are stronger than the fwd o2m's.

[joeeveryman87]

Sure, you can make power with the stock gears for a while but I'm sure your friend doesn't drive every day at that power level. you'll shear the teeth on 4th gear after a while, especially doing long pulls. My friend Dave with a turbo r32 with a t67 made over 600awhp/wtq and drove it around that power level often, really drives the car hard, and sheared 4th gear on stock gearbox, got a gearbox from Europe (DRP I believe, IIRC), broke that one the same way, and now he's on his 3rd gearbox. AND those are stronger than the fwd o2m's.

I hear where your comin from man, im curious, since we're on the transmission topic what do you know about the wavetrac LSD, any words of wisdom on the diff?

[One Gray GLI]

not sure, I have a peloquin myself with much success so far, and a clutchmasters FX400 which I love, but I know many use the wavetrac's as well, as far as differentials go.

[jvlrancing]

Hello Boys, just read the topic.....from Australia

The R32 head is the best option to the 2.8 head
Ive just invested in the R32 head from 034motorsport from there Audi A4 racecar with 264/260 cams double valve springs
and titanium retainers..
Theres not much achievement in the porting of the head for the money anyway
I can tell u the head will take 900hps as proven by 034motorsport,(no porting)just something to think about..

[joeeveryman87]

so i keep hearing about the R32 head, and i want one for my build. sooooo can everyone help me in get my hands on one? and does it just bolt on? or do i need a new fuel rail? new VVT gears?

[Snitches Get Stitches]

You will need an R32 fuel rail and intake mani, but everything else is plug-n-play. You would use VVT from 2.8l head. Cams and electrics are the same from 3.2l head to 2.8l.

[One Gray GLI]

Gonna need custom head studs also. They're different sizes.

[joeeveryman87]

ok, good deal thats not to bad. Now about gettin my hands on one......haha

[Snitches Get Stitches]

Look for a Toureg or Porsche Cayene 3.2 head as well. They are exactly the same motor as in the R. Contact INA or 034 for custom head studs.

[GTIVRon]

This thread made me realize turning my VR6 into a project is a ****ty idea for what I want. Thanks for all the honesty. Once I buy my diesel golf, my car will be up for sale. Starting to lookout for an M6 LS1... Everyone in texas drives effing automatics. Panzies. lol.

[joeeveryman87]

This thread made me realize turning my VR6 into a project is a ****ty idea for what I want. Thanks for all the honesty. Once I buy my diesel golf, my car will be up for sale. Starting to lookout for an M6 LS1... Everyone in texas drives effing automatics. Panzies. lol.

thats sad, someone lock this thread immediately hahaha noooo im just kidding! If this isnt the route your looking for then by all means dont do it (btw im tellin you the tranmission isnt as weak sauce as some people seem to think , just sayin) but i still say you'd be a satisfied VRT owner after, you'd know why i strive for it so badly if you drove one, but good luck man

[One Gray GLI]

the transmission isn't weak, but when you get up to the HP goals you want, it is. 500whp is more than enough, you can make that on pump gas with a 6262 / 6265 / 35r easily with a HG spacer.

[PhReE]

Not Even. The stock VR rods are so robust that a simple ARP bolt installation + a line bore is more than enough.
I only recommend going pistons & rods IF you need to really build your motor OR dont like the idea of a compression dropping gasket.

pros:
fun highway car.
sleeper status.
sounds amazing.
something not many people have.
reliable if put together correctly
stock drivability (good power under boost still, even with lower compression)

cons:
****ty platform, bad aftermarket support
money (sorry. lol)
traction issues
the thought you could have built something else more fun for cheaper.
VR6s are terrible to work on until you familiarize yourself with everything over time.

the negatives outweigh the positive. Trust me, I was in your shoes before. But you've got your heart set out on it, so just research, read build threads from the past, and try not to make mistakes that people have in the past

Both of these comments are dead on. My car has been boosted since 2006 and honestly the motor still runs GREAT. it has ~75-80,000 miles under boost (of ~110k total) and shows no signs of letting up. The MOTOR is a BEAST!

Honestly its the CAR, the BODY, the motor mounts, suspension bushings, etc that will fall apart on you. Taking a 200hp car to 450+hp puts a LOT of stress on all the other crap. 450bhp is a REALLY damn fun streetcar that will pretty much walk anything on the street, and be reliable. If you want to 'go the extra mile' go for a full suspension refresh, get heavy duty/poly bushings, get engine mount upgrades (you don't need to go full on solids, but even for example BFI stage 1 on all 3 mounts goes a long way).

Also TAKE CARE OF IT! If you smell anything new (electrical burning smells, raw fuel, smopke, ETC) DONT IGNORE IT! Figure out what it is!! ALso any new noises, vibrations, etc, get them taken care of! Also make sure you use a decent quality synthetic, and I run ~ 7,500 miles on each change. I have had oil analyzed and they suggested not to go much more than 7500 but that 7500 was perfectly safe.

The transmission is the strongest one that VW EVER put in a MkIV, at least in the US. Heck I ran ~350+ whp on the STOCK CLUTCH for a few years and if you drive it correctly it will hold!

Also remember you wil be SIGNIFICANTLY modding this car, and you either need to be somewhat handy and work on it yourself (I do all my own minor repairs) but it is good to have a mechanic that is familiar with the car that you can lean on for larger repairs, say to replace the clutch/timing chains. That's a job outside my scope but I have a single mechanic that I allow to work on my car and I trust him. I have never had a major failure on this car that has left me stranded, its a 2004, and I have owned it since new.

If you love it, it will love you.

[Snitches Get Stitches]

Phree, what kind of oil are you running in your VRT? Im breaking in my fresh motor very soon, and will have many more questions on proper procedure.

I agree with all the comments above...

[PhReE]

I generally run Mobil 1 15-50 in the summer and 10-40 in the winter.

For break in I would suggest:
-warm up motor to operating temp by driving around a bit, calmly.
-do some long WOT pulls in 3rd-4th gear to redline and then let off gas and leave in gear to create lots of vac and allow it to wind down.
-repeat a few more times

Done!

[joeeveryman87]

Thanks for the in-put Phree, i always knew a 24v Turbo'd had plenty of longevity in it, but its always nice to hear it from someone who has one I have some bad news however, mainly for myself, i wont be able to start my VRT project till next fall. Im headed over to Iraq this December courtesy of the AirForce, but i would still love for this informational thread to keep goin untill i start the build thread in about a year

[Snitches Get Stitches]

Well than lets keep asking the questions.
Phree, why such a heavy oil? We were talking recently about oil for vrt use, and considering the clearances on my built motor, we were talking about simple 10w 30 synthetics after full break-in. Input on that choice is welcome.

[joeeveryman87]

Well than lets keep asking the questions.
Phree, why such a heavy oil? We were talking recently about oil for vrt use, and considering the clearances on my built motor, we were talking about simple 10w 30 synthetics after full break-in. Input on that choice is welcome.

i know the question was directed towards phree, but i think we all know the VR engine runs hotter than the average motor on account of all the cylinders being alot closer to each other, so id say especially in the summer with all the extra performance your pushing out of it, the higher wieght oil adds alot more protection from heat induced oil break down......just my own 2cents theory, phree can totally slam my responce if he wants

[joeeveryman87]

To add a little help with funding for the R32 Cylinder head (im still looking for), im selling this extra 24v head i bought that i was gonna build up while still being able to use my car, but since the consenseous is that i should go with the R32 head for my build im taking the advice, soooooo this 2.8lit 24v head with 30k miles on it is gonna go for a whopping $350 plus shipping, $50 less than i paid. Here are a few pics....................

[joeeveryman87]

BTW it is being sold as seen, no VVT gears!!! It is also in the for sale section just thought id add it on this thread aswell.

[jvlrancing]

Ur choice is a good one togo to a R32 head
Not sure how hard they r to pick up there but here in Australia never get them
good luck getting one u wont go wrong...

[EFiNVR6]

Hey guys i been thinking about this for awhile now but i finally think that my vr6 deserves a snail lol My goal is not that crazy i am hoping to get 350 whp so if you guys can point me in the right direction and what would be my best move since the more threads i read about the VR-T the more confused i get so any help i would greatly appreciated.

Thanks


PS
sorry joeeveryman87 for hijacking your thread.

[joeeveryman87]

Ur choice is a good one togo to a R32 head
Not sure how hard they r to pick up there but here in Australia never get them
good luck getting one u wont go wrong...

haha same here in the states man, ive had no luck so far......i wonder how much they cost brand new.....probly a fortune more than its worth lol

[joeeveryman87]

Hey guys i been thinking about this for awhile now but i finally think that my vr6 deserves a snail lol My goal is not that crazy i am hoping to get 350 whp so if you guys can point me in the right direction and what would be my best move since the more threads i read about the VR-T the more confused i get so any help i would greatly appreciated.

Thanks


PS
sorry joeeveryman87 for hijacking your thread.

Well do you have a 12v or 24v? either way 350whp is etremely easy to attain on a VR6 as youll see if you read through this thread at all

A simple Stage 2 kit from C2 is all you'd really need(very nice high quality kits from what im told), def no need for forged internals.

Id do a little more research though, check out the C2 site, maybe CTS(more expensive), im not sure about you but i researched this idea for over a year all over the internet, asking friends but most importanly the VWVORTEX forum theres all the info youll ever need on this forum......

[Black Ice]

I'm in the same boat, except I am looking for about 450whp. Just picked up an R motor that had the head separated from the block. I keep getting mixed reviews as to whether I should get rods or not. I am currently in school and working part time, so I could sure use the $700 to utilize towards something else for the motor. There's a lot of guys on here who have reached higher hp goals than me with stock rods. I think I'll just keep the rods/pistons stock and replace the rod/main bearings and use ARP bolts. I just don't want a $6,000 paperweight later down the road. Decisions..decisions..