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    Thread: 24v Quest for 550+HP experianced oppinions welcomed!

    1. Member One Gray GLI's Avatar
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      09-24-2011 10:54 AM #126
      still haven't sold the car, and I'm closing in on four years now, 3 of them turbo'd. granted I have another car or two now also. No point in selling it, it's not worth what it once was, and I don't owe anything on it, and it still puts a smile on my face.

      If you put a decent set of tires on the car, it'll hook. obviously not in the winter or in the rain, but during the spring/summer, depending on where I go WOT in the rpm range, I can get the car to hook by the end of second, and that's at 470whp.

      Like I've said..the breaking point on these cars is in excess of 500whp. after that, along come the trans issues, then motor issues if it's just got a HG spacer. As I've said in the past, there's no point to having THAT much power for a FWD street car. long WOT pulls in 4th/5th will destroy your trans, and the heat created by those "longer pulls" isn't so great either.

      you don't want tranny problems? go buy a quaife gear box and spend >4k at least.
      Last edited by One Gray GLI; 09-24-2011 at 10:58 AM.
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    2. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-24-2011 06:18 PM #127
      hmmm so many things to think about............ i still think ill build up the motor and slap a goos sized turbo in her, just might lower the power goals a slightly
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    3. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-25-2011 01:15 PM #128
      finished

      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    4. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-25-2011 01:16 PM #129
      An intercooler would look soooooo sexy in that bumber.......just sayin
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    5. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      09-26-2011 02:37 PM #130
      Im going to be taking my 16psi wastegate spring out of my TIAL and run a 7psi spring like I did back when I first turboed the car. It was tamable, and Ill actually be able to catch traction enough to tune the car how I want to. NOT LIKE A RACECAR!! God I hate that my car is just an on/off button with power
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    6. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-27-2011 12:37 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by .SLEEPYDUB. View Post
      Im going to be taking my 16psi wastegate spring out of my TIAL and run a 7psi spring like I did back when I first turboed the car. It was tamable, and Ill actually be able to catch traction enough to tune the car how I want to. NOT LIKE A RACECAR!! God I hate that my car is just an on/off button with power
      how much psi can you run to your engine off a 7psi spring as opposed to a 16psi? or is it just 7 or 16psi total that you can run alltogether....meaning if i wanted to run 30lbs of boost i would need a 30psi spring for the wastegate?
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    7. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      09-27-2011 01:10 PM #132
      oh man, you need to do some more research if you dont know the answer to that question.

      The psi associated with a wastegate spring is the minimum amount of boost the wastegate will allow the turbo to produce. It wont go under ~7psi and wont go over ~7psi unless the wastegate has a boost controller hooked up to it. In theory you usually can only going about 15psi over the wastegate pressure. So a 7psi spring will allow for up to ~22psi. However I have seen some people go above that range, but thats usually a good safe estimate. Youll get at least 22psi out of a 7psi spring.

      I used a 16psi spring because I was running 28psi+ and a 7psi spring wouldnt allow me to go that high.
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    8. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-27-2011 03:38 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by .SLEEPYDUB. View Post
      oh man, you need to do some more research if you dont know the answer to that question.

      The psi associated with a wastegate spring is the minimum amount of boost the wastegate will allow the turbo to produce. It wont go under ~7psi and wont go over ~7psi unless the wastegate has a boost controller hooked up to it. In theory you usually can only going about 15psi over the wastegate pressure. So a 7psi spring will allow for up to ~22psi. However I have seen some people go above that range, but thats usually a good safe estimate. Youll get at least 22psi out of a 7psi spring.

      I used a 16psi spring because I was running 28psi+ and a 7psi spring wouldnt allow me to go that high.
      see i learn sm new everyday , im learning and know most of the operations of the turbo setup as a whole, but as for individual stuff, i may know what they do in general, but not so much specifics. So thanks for the wastegate 101 , thats exactly why i started this thread gotta love Vortex man!
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    9. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-27-2011 03:41 PM #134
      I always thought, the bigger the better than you can just get a boost controller and turn it down when you dont want it and turn it up when you do, but not so much......?
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    10. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      09-27-2011 05:38 PM #135
      You can only turn it down as far as your wastegate allows. ie; a 7psi wastegate cant go lower than 7psi, but it can go higher.
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    11. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-27-2011 08:05 PM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by .SLEEPYDUB. View Post
      You can only turn it down as far as your wastegate allows. ie; a 7psi wastegate cant go lower than 7psi, but it can go higher.
      Thanks buddy
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    12. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-27-2011 08:14 PM #137
      So i did some research cause i was dissapointed about not knowing what waste gates are really all about and i found this interesting and very informative post on an Evo Forum enjoy!!!
      hey guys, i just got a call from a guy that I dont believe is on this forum or anything but we had a conflicting conversation about what size wastegate he needed to use on his subaru. He told me that he did a ton of research and he said he wanted to run high boost and that a 38mm wastegate would not be enough for 30+ psi on a GT35R.

      First of all, just to put it out there, wastegates LOWER boost, meaning that the lower boost you run, the more of the wastegate you use.

      Below is a turbo and how it works basically. The red side is the exhaust side, the blue side is the compressor side. The 2 wheels are connected by a shaft. Exhaust gases turn the exhaust wheel which is attached to the shaft that is attached to the compressor wheel. The compressor wheel sucks in air and compresses it, forcing it through the intercooler pipe and into the engine.



      Below is a turbo setup in color. There is no wastegate on this setup. Consider the red tube to be a header or exhaust manifold. With no wastegate on that tube, boost would keep going up and up with rpm to whatever the turbo could produce because the engine would just keep producing more and moer exhaust gases. Now if you put a wastegate on that tube its basically going to act like a controlled exhaust leak and its going to leak out exhaust gases before they can reach the exhaust wheel. The more you leak out, the less the exhaust wheel will turn; creating less boost.



      Now heres where we get technical. wastegates will open up to whatever spring pressure the spring inside is because The vacuum line thats hooked up to the lower port has the pressurized air going through it to the gate under the valve assembly forcing it open. Basically if you have a 14.5 psi spring in your gate and everything else is working properly, when you floor your car, your turbo will create 14.5 psi of boost and once theres 14.5 psi of boost in your engine/intake manifold, that means theres 14.5 psi of boost going through that vacuum line. once 14.5 psi of boost hits the wastegate it forces it open, thus bleeding off exhaust and maintaining the amount of exhaust it takes to turn the exhaust wheel to create 14.5 psi. Now imagine we install a manual boost controller in the vacuum line between the intake mani and the wastegate. Now we have another controlled leak. If we leak off 4 psi before the wastegate sees it, then the motor is going to have 18.5 psi in it when the wastegate sees 14.5 psi. As we bleed off more air through the boost controller the boost will go up and up because the wastegate isnt seeing that 14.5 psi yet.

      here is a link to a pdf file that shows how all of the above works
      http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w..._wginstall.pdf


      Now lastly, there are other factors that will effect boost levels.

      Boost creep and cars not reaching the desired boost level are other problems people have.

      Scenario 1. If you have a 38mm wastegate on a 8.0L viper which obviously has a ton of exhaust and you want to run 3 psi of boost well whats gonna happen? The gate is gonna maxxed out and the exhaust gases are just gonna turn the exhaust wheel faster and faster creating more boost then desired.

      Scenario 2. Imagine we put a stock subaru turbo on a dodge viper with a four 44mm gates with a 3 psi springs. Now we want to run 20 psi of boost and we have a boost controller to do that. Ok now we have plenty of wastegate room to work with so scenario 1 wont be a problem. What would happen? Obviously the TINY exhaust side of the stock subie turbo would be a huge bottleneck for 8.0L of exhaust gas. So we'd want to run 20 psi but we wouldnt reach that number most likely. WHY? because there would be so much backpressure in the headers from the exhaust not being able to squeeze through the subie turbo so well over 3 psi of pressure would build up inside the headers/exhaust manifolds. That would thus force the wastegates open and 20 psi wouldnt never be achieved. This is why people with 7 psi springs cant run 35 psi without their gate opening up. I've seen people pull the vacuum hose off the wastegate completely and the car might only run 24 psi because there is 7 psi of exhaust pressure inside the exhaust manifold when there is 24 psi of pressure inside the engine.

      if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask as I'll do my best to explain. There are other things that can sometimes effect boost control such as recirculating, backpressure in the wastegate, backpressure in the exhaust system, etc... but if anyone wants to know about that, just post it. Thanks and enjoy the info guys!!!

      Also check this video out aswell, great video describing wastegates-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5T5PnWE-k

      Courtesy of Joeeveryman87

      Info from "ScKcBc's"
      Last edited by joeeveryman87; 09-28-2011 at 08:06 PM. Reason: add link
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    13. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-28-2011 07:28 PM #138
      Just some more random information as i learn it all better i figured id post my findings on the thread......soooooo

      Blow off valves are air pressure release valves that can be mounted on the intake piping of a turbocharged car anywhere in between the turbo and the throttle body. They are also known as dump valves, or vent valves. The blow off valve pictured below is made by Greddy and is the Type-S model.



      A blow off valve has few purposes, but is still a very important piece.....

      The functions of a blow off valve
      Without a blow off valve, when you let off of the gas, the compressed air in your intake piping increases to great pressures as the turbines in the turbocharger are forced to a screeching hault. The extreme pressure forces the air back through the turbocharger, increasing the wear on the turbo.

      With a blow off valve, when you let off of the gas the air pressure left in your intake piping is relieved as the blow off valve opens up. This allows your turbo to continue spinning in the proper direction, preventing damage to the turbo and allowing for a faster return to positive air pressure in the intake piping.

      How it works
      A small diameter hose runs from the intake manifold to the blow off valve. When the pressure in the intake manifold is positive (in boost), the pressure in the small hose keeps the wastegate closed.

      Once you let off of the gas, the throttle plate closes, and all of the air in the intake manifold is sucked into the engine. With negative, or zero pressure in the intake manifold, the blow off valve opens up and releases all of the compressed air from the intake piping.
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    14. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-28-2011 07:31 PM #139
      Hopefully by the time i get back from my deployment this thread, all my research and all the input from all you, will pay off greatly since i plan to do the "install" myself
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    15. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-28-2011 07:49 PM #140
      No better info than from Garret Turbo themself!!

      A/R (Area/Radius) describes a geometric characteristic of all compressor and turbine housings. Technically, it is defined as:

      the inlet (or, for compressor housings, the discharge) cross-sectional area divided by the radius from the turbo centerline to the centroid of that area (see Figure).



      The A/R parameter has different effects on the compressor and turbine performance, as outlined below.

      Compressor A/R - Compressor performance is comparatively insensitive to changes in A/R. Larger A/R housings are sometimes used to optimize performance of low boost applications, and smaller A/R are used for high boost applications. However, as this influence of A/R on compressor performance is minor, there are not A/R options available for compressor housings.

      Turbine A/R - Turbine performance is greatly affected by changing the A/R of the housing, as it is used to adjust the flow capacity of the turbine. Using a smaller A/R will increase the exhaust gas velocity into the turbine wheel. This provides increased turbine power at lower engine speeds, resulting in a quicker boost rise. However, a small A/R also causes the flow to enter the wheel more tangentially, which reduces the ultimate flow capacity of the turbine wheel. This will tend to increase exhaust backpressure and hence reduce the engine's ability to "breathe" effectively at high RPM, adversely affecting peak engine power.

      Conversely, using a larger A/R will lower exhaust gas velocity, and delay boost rise. The flow in a larger A/R housing enters the wheel in a more radial fashion, increasing the wheel's effective flow capacity, resulting in lower backpressure and better power at higher engine speeds.

      When deciding between A/R options, be realistic with the intended vehicle use and use the A/R to bias the performance toward the desired powerband characteristic.

      Here's a simplistic look at comparing turbine housing geometry with different applications. By comparing different turbine housing A/R, it is often possible to determine the intended use of the system.

      Imagine two 3.5L engines both using GT30R turbochargers. The only difference between the two engines is a different turbine housing A/R; otherwise the two engines are identical:
      1. Engine #1 has turbine housing with an A/R of 0.63
      2. Engine #2 has a turbine housing with an A/R of 1.06.

      What can we infer about the intended use and the turbocharger matching for each engine?

      Engine#1: This engine is using a smaller A/R turbine housing (0.63) thus biased more towards low-end torque and optimal boost response. Many would describe this as being more "fun" to drive on the street, as normal daily driving habits tend to favor transient response. However, at higher engine speeds, this smaller A/R housing will result in high backpressure, which can result in a loss of top end power. This type of engine performance is desirable for street applications where the low speed boost response and transient conditions are more important than top end power.

      Engine #2: This engine is using a larger A/R turbine housing (1.06) and is biased towards peak horsepower, while sacrificing transient response and torque at very low engine speeds. The larger A/R turbine housing will continue to minimize backpressure at high rpm, to the benefit of engine peak power. On the other hand, this will also raise the engine speed at which the turbo can provide boost, increasing time to boost. The performance of Engine #2 is more desirable for racing applications than Engine #1 since Engine #2 will be operating at high engine speeds most of the time.
      Last edited by joeeveryman87; 09-28-2011 at 07:49 PM. Reason: misspell
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    16. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-28-2011 08:00 PM #141
      Before discussing compression ratio and boost, it is important to understand engine knock, also known as detonation. Knock is a dangerous condition caused by uncontrolled combustion of the air/fuel mixture. This abnormal combustion causes rapid spikes in cylinder pressure which can result in engine damage.

      Three primary factors that influence engine knock are:

      1.Knock resistance characteristics (knock limit) of the engine: Since every engine is vastly different when it comes to knock resistance, there is no single answer to "how much." Design features such as combustion chamber geometry, spark plug location, bore size and compression ratio all affect the knock characteristics of an engine.
      2.Ambient air conditions: For the turbocharger application, both ambient air conditions and engine inlet conditions affect maximum boost. Hot air and high cylinder pressure increases the tendency of an engine to knock. When an engine is boosted, the intake air temperature increases, thus increasing the tendency to knock. Charge air cooling (e.g. an intercooler) addresses this concern by cooling the compressed air produced by the turbocharger
      3.Octane rating of the fuel being used: octane is a measure of a fuel's ability to resist knock. The octane rating for pump gas ranges from 85 to 94, while racing fuel would be well above 100. The higher the octane rating of the fuel, the more resistant to knock. Since knock can be damaging to an engine, it is important to use fuel of sufficient octane for the application. Generally speaking, the more boost run, the higher the octane requirement.
      This cannot be overstated: engine calibration of fuel and spark plays an enormous role in dictating knock behavior of an engine. See Section 5 below for more details.

      Now that we have introduced knock/detonation, contributing factors and ways to decrease the likelihood of detonation, let's talk about compression ratio.

      The compression ratio from the factory will be different for naturally aspirated engines and boosted engines. For example, a stock Honda S2000 has a compression ratio of 11.1:1, whereas a turbocharged Subaru Impreza WRX has a compression ratio of 8.0:1.

      There are numerous factors that affect the maximum allowable compression ratio. There is no single correct answer for every application. Generally, compression ratio should be set as high as feasible without encountering detonation at the maximum load condition. Compression ratio that is too low will result in an engine that is a bit sluggish in off-boost operation. However, if it is too high this can lead to serious knock-related engine problems.

      Factors that influence the compression ratio include: fuel anti-knock properties (octane rating), boost pressure, intake air temperature, combustion chamber design, ignition timing, valve events, and exhaust backpressure. Many modern normally-aspirated engines have well-designed combustion chambers that, with appropriate tuning, will allow modest boost levels with no change to compression ratio. For higher power targets with more boost , compression ratio should be adjusted to compensate.

      There are a handful of ways to reduce compression ratio, some better than others. Least desirable is adding a spacer between the block and the head. These spacers reduce the amount a "quench" designed into an engine's combustion chambers, and can alter cam timing as well. Spacers are, however, relatively simple and inexpensive.

      A better option, if more expensive and time-consuming to install, is to use lower-compression pistons. These will have no adverse effects on cam timing or the head's ability to seal, and allow proper quench regions in the combustion chambers.

      5. Air/Fuel Ratio tuning: Rich v. Lean, why lean makes more power but is more dangerous

      When discussing engine tuning the 'Air/Fuel Ratio' (AFR) is one of the main topics. Proper AFR calibration is critical to performance and durability of the engine and it's components. The AFR defines the ratio of the amount of air consumed by the engine compared to the amount of fuel.

      A 'Stoichiometric' AFR has the correct amount of air and fuel to produce a chemically complete combustion event. For gasoline engines, the stoichiometric , A/F ratio is 14.7:1, which means 14.7 parts of air to one part of fuel. The stoichiometric AFR depends on fuel type-- for alcohol it is 6.4:1 and 14.5:1 for diesel.

      So what is meant by a rich or lean AFR? A lower AFR number contains less air than the 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR, therefore it is a richer mixture. Conversely, a higher AFR number contains more air and therefore it is a leaner mixture.

      For Example:
      15.0:1 = Lean
      14.7:1 = Stoichiometric
      13.0:1 = Rich

      Leaner AFR results in higher temperatures as the mixture is combusted. Generally, normally-aspirated spark-ignition (SI) gasoline engines produce maximum power just slightly rich of stoichiometric. However, in practice it is kept between 12:1 and 13:1 in order to keep exhaust gas temperatures in check and to account for variances in fuel quality. This is a realistic full-load AFR on a normally-aspirated engine but can be dangerously lean with a highly-boosted engine.

      Let's take a closer look. As the air-fuel mixture is ignited by the spark plug, a flame front propagates from the spark plug. The now-burning mixture raises the cylinder pressure and temperature, peaking at some point in the combustion process.

      The turbocharger increases the density of the air resulting in a denser mixture. The denser mixture raises the peak cylinder pressure, therefore increasing the probability of knock. As the AFR is leaned out, the temperature of the burning gases increases, which also increases the probability of knock. This is why it is imperative to run richer AFR on a boosted engine at full load. Doing so will reduce the likelihood of knock, and will also keep temperatures under control.

      There are actually three ways to reduce the probability of knock at full load on a turbocharged engine: reduce boost, adjust the AFR to richer mixture, and retard ignition timing. These three parameters need to be optimized together to yield the highest reliable power.
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    17. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-28-2011 08:30 PM #142
      Wastegates with screamer pipes.......any advantages to it??? or does it just sound badass and a possible huge fine for illegal emisions
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    18. Member One Gray GLI's Avatar
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      09-29-2011 06:16 AM #143
      personal preference, although if it's recirculated in a bad spot, you'll lose power because of the turbulence in the exhaust. you'd want it to be recirculated downstream for example, not against a bend.

      although, I believe there's some hard evidence floating around that a open dump would make a LITTLE bit more power. personally I believe it's negligible at best, and I've had both a open dump on my old "EIP" kit, and now a recirc on a different setup.
      The internet is serious business.

    19. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      09-29-2011 12:57 PM #144
      Good job on googling everything, looks like youre on the right path to learning more about what you are getting yourself into.

      Id rather have it recirc because I want to hear the turbo sound, and the exhaust, not a screamer pipe. But mine is a screamer pipe right now
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    20. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-29-2011 08:30 PM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by .SLEEPYDUB. View Post
      Good job on googling everything, looks like youre on the right path to learning more about what you are getting yourself into.

      Id rather have it recirc because I want to hear the turbo sound, and the exhaust, not a screamer pipe. But mine is a screamer pipe right now
      Do you think it adds any performance that makes it worth it
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    21. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      09-30-2011 10:15 AM #146
      Personally, I think it makes a negligible difference, if any at all.
      If youre trying to squeeze every last drop of power out of your car, then it may be useful, otherwise it can become very annoying to some people very quickly.
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    22. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      2003 GTI 24v // 2007 CBR600RR // 97' F150 // 85' Honda ATC 200x
      10-01-2011 01:38 PM #147
      So my next question(and this may be a noob question) but what are these added "catch cans" i keep seeing on F/I setups coming off the valve cover? ive seen some from having 1 can, all the way up to having 4 cans? google has not helped me on this topic.....
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    23. Member Norwegian-VR6's Avatar
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      10-02-2011 03:43 AM #148
      It is a oil catch tank- So you dont resirc the oil steam coming from the valve cover right back into the inlet housing. The turbo can get pretty soacked if you dont clean the inlet somethimes.

      Thats why they use a catch tank, to avoid this and all the oil will be in the tank not in the turbo or inlet housing.

      Ive driven 50000km with my car from 15-30 psi and has never used a cath tank. But I clean everything up now and then.
      2012 Skoda Superb 2.0 TDI avant: Daily family car
      1996 Golf MK3 12V 02M Turbo.

    24. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      2003 GLI, 2005 GLI, 2JZ Swapped E30, FC RX7
      10-02-2011 02:25 PM #149
      He is right, but he left one thing out.
      Crankcase pressure can get pretty high in boosted motors, especially hondas. You need to relieve that pressure somehow, and the stock setup is only designed to relieve as much pressure as the motor produces naturally. Im a firm believer in this, thus why I run 2 SS lines with AN fittings welded to the valve cover straight to a large catch can that is ventilated.

      If you look at my build thread or FS thread you'll see it on the driverside of the engine bay.
      The Elite 24v VR6 Club: Founder
      Want to be a horsepower baller? Buy my car
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    25. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      10-03-2011 11:53 AM #150
      Heh my breather hose just vents under the car
      -James
      04 GTI Silverstone 24vT :: GT35r - TT 264/260 - Unitronic 630cc - Bosch 044 - Area51 SRI - Full 3" TB :: More in progress
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