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    Thread: 24v Quest for 550+HP experianced oppinions welcomed!

    1. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-28-2011 08:00 PM #141
      Before discussing compression ratio and boost, it is important to understand engine knock, also known as detonation. Knock is a dangerous condition caused by uncontrolled combustion of the air/fuel mixture. This abnormal combustion causes rapid spikes in cylinder pressure which can result in engine damage.

      Three primary factors that influence engine knock are:

      1.Knock resistance characteristics (knock limit) of the engine: Since every engine is vastly different when it comes to knock resistance, there is no single answer to "how much." Design features such as combustion chamber geometry, spark plug location, bore size and compression ratio all affect the knock characteristics of an engine.
      2.Ambient air conditions: For the turbocharger application, both ambient air conditions and engine inlet conditions affect maximum boost. Hot air and high cylinder pressure increases the tendency of an engine to knock. When an engine is boosted, the intake air temperature increases, thus increasing the tendency to knock. Charge air cooling (e.g. an intercooler) addresses this concern by cooling the compressed air produced by the turbocharger
      3.Octane rating of the fuel being used: octane is a measure of a fuel's ability to resist knock. The octane rating for pump gas ranges from 85 to 94, while racing fuel would be well above 100. The higher the octane rating of the fuel, the more resistant to knock. Since knock can be damaging to an engine, it is important to use fuel of sufficient octane for the application. Generally speaking, the more boost run, the higher the octane requirement.
      This cannot be overstated: engine calibration of fuel and spark plays an enormous role in dictating knock behavior of an engine. See Section 5 below for more details.

      Now that we have introduced knock/detonation, contributing factors and ways to decrease the likelihood of detonation, let's talk about compression ratio.

      The compression ratio from the factory will be different for naturally aspirated engines and boosted engines. For example, a stock Honda S2000 has a compression ratio of 11.1:1, whereas a turbocharged Subaru Impreza WRX has a compression ratio of 8.0:1.

      There are numerous factors that affect the maximum allowable compression ratio. There is no single correct answer for every application. Generally, compression ratio should be set as high as feasible without encountering detonation at the maximum load condition. Compression ratio that is too low will result in an engine that is a bit sluggish in off-boost operation. However, if it is too high this can lead to serious knock-related engine problems.

      Factors that influence the compression ratio include: fuel anti-knock properties (octane rating), boost pressure, intake air temperature, combustion chamber design, ignition timing, valve events, and exhaust backpressure. Many modern normally-aspirated engines have well-designed combustion chambers that, with appropriate tuning, will allow modest boost levels with no change to compression ratio. For higher power targets with more boost , compression ratio should be adjusted to compensate.

      There are a handful of ways to reduce compression ratio, some better than others. Least desirable is adding a spacer between the block and the head. These spacers reduce the amount a "quench" designed into an engine's combustion chambers, and can alter cam timing as well. Spacers are, however, relatively simple and inexpensive.

      A better option, if more expensive and time-consuming to install, is to use lower-compression pistons. These will have no adverse effects on cam timing or the head's ability to seal, and allow proper quench regions in the combustion chambers.

      5. Air/Fuel Ratio tuning: Rich v. Lean, why lean makes more power but is more dangerous

      When discussing engine tuning the 'Air/Fuel Ratio' (AFR) is one of the main topics. Proper AFR calibration is critical to performance and durability of the engine and it's components. The AFR defines the ratio of the amount of air consumed by the engine compared to the amount of fuel.

      A 'Stoichiometric' AFR has the correct amount of air and fuel to produce a chemically complete combustion event. For gasoline engines, the stoichiometric , A/F ratio is 14.7:1, which means 14.7 parts of air to one part of fuel. The stoichiometric AFR depends on fuel type-- for alcohol it is 6.4:1 and 14.5:1 for diesel.

      So what is meant by a rich or lean AFR? A lower AFR number contains less air than the 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR, therefore it is a richer mixture. Conversely, a higher AFR number contains more air and therefore it is a leaner mixture.

      For Example:
      15.0:1 = Lean
      14.7:1 = Stoichiometric
      13.0:1 = Rich

      Leaner AFR results in higher temperatures as the mixture is combusted. Generally, normally-aspirated spark-ignition (SI) gasoline engines produce maximum power just slightly rich of stoichiometric. However, in practice it is kept between 12:1 and 13:1 in order to keep exhaust gas temperatures in check and to account for variances in fuel quality. This is a realistic full-load AFR on a normally-aspirated engine but can be dangerously lean with a highly-boosted engine.

      Let's take a closer look. As the air-fuel mixture is ignited by the spark plug, a flame front propagates from the spark plug. The now-burning mixture raises the cylinder pressure and temperature, peaking at some point in the combustion process.

      The turbocharger increases the density of the air resulting in a denser mixture. The denser mixture raises the peak cylinder pressure, therefore increasing the probability of knock. As the AFR is leaned out, the temperature of the burning gases increases, which also increases the probability of knock. This is why it is imperative to run richer AFR on a boosted engine at full load. Doing so will reduce the likelihood of knock, and will also keep temperatures under control.

      There are actually three ways to reduce the probability of knock at full load on a turbocharged engine: reduce boost, adjust the AFR to richer mixture, and retard ignition timing. These three parameters need to be optimized together to yield the highest reliable power.
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    2. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-28-2011 08:30 PM #142
      Wastegates with screamer pipes.......any advantages to it??? or does it just sound badass and a possible huge fine for illegal emisions
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    3. Member One Gray GLI's Avatar
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      09-29-2011 06:16 AM #143
      personal preference, although if it's recirculated in a bad spot, you'll lose power because of the turbulence in the exhaust. you'd want it to be recirculated downstream for example, not against a bend.

      although, I believe there's some hard evidence floating around that a open dump would make a LITTLE bit more power. personally I believe it's negligible at best, and I've had both a open dump on my old "EIP" kit, and now a recirc on a different setup.
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    4. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      09-29-2011 12:57 PM #144
      Good job on googling everything, looks like youre on the right path to learning more about what you are getting yourself into.

      Id rather have it recirc because I want to hear the turbo sound, and the exhaust, not a screamer pipe. But mine is a screamer pipe right now
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    5. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      09-29-2011 08:30 PM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by .SLEEPYDUB. View Post
      Good job on googling everything, looks like youre on the right path to learning more about what you are getting yourself into.

      Id rather have it recirc because I want to hear the turbo sound, and the exhaust, not a screamer pipe. But mine is a screamer pipe right now
      Do you think it adds any performance that makes it worth it
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    6. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      09-30-2011 10:15 AM #146
      Personally, I think it makes a negligible difference, if any at all.
      If youre trying to squeeze every last drop of power out of your car, then it may be useful, otherwise it can become very annoying to some people very quickly.
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    7. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-01-2011 01:38 PM #147
      So my next question(and this may be a noob question) but what are these added "catch cans" i keep seeing on F/I setups coming off the valve cover? ive seen some from having 1 can, all the way up to having 4 cans? google has not helped me on this topic.....
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

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      10-02-2011 03:43 AM #148
      It is a oil catch tank- So you dont resirc the oil steam coming from the valve cover right back into the inlet housing. The turbo can get pretty soacked if you dont clean the inlet somethimes.

      Thats why they use a catch tank, to avoid this and all the oil will be in the tank not in the turbo or inlet housing.

      Ive driven 50000km with my car from 15-30 psi and has never used a cath tank. But I clean everything up now and then.
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    9. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      10-02-2011 02:25 PM #149
      He is right, but he left one thing out.
      Crankcase pressure can get pretty high in boosted motors, especially hondas. You need to relieve that pressure somehow, and the stock setup is only designed to relieve as much pressure as the motor produces naturally. Im a firm believer in this, thus why I run 2 SS lines with AN fittings welded to the valve cover straight to a large catch can that is ventilated.

      If you look at my build thread or FS thread you'll see it on the driverside of the engine bay.
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    10. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      10-03-2011 11:53 AM #150
      Heh my breather hose just vents under the car
      -James
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      10-03-2011 03:02 PM #151
      Mine's still recirculated, but i'm going to do something about that because there's always a small like few drops of oil that form in the silicone coupler right before the turbo because of it. No likey.

    12. Member One Gray GLI's Avatar
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      10-04-2011 01:35 AM #152
      Quote Originally Posted by PhReE View Post
      Heh my breather hose just vents under the car
      al gore would be mad.

      I've just got a simple little catchcan setup, no fancy -AN lines and such. hose off the valve cover to an ATP catch can.. also helps that I don't have a coolant ball I guess.

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    13. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-04-2011 09:50 AM #153
      Quote Originally Posted by One Gray GLI View Post
      al gore would be mad.

      I've just got a simple little catchcan setup, no fancy -AN lines and such. hose off the valve cover to an ATP catch can.. also helps that I don't have a coolant ball I guess.

      So do you not have a windshield washer reservoir either? and what is that black reservoir for that is between the catch can and what looks like your inline fuel pump? is that the new Coolant reservoir? Nice setup also

      BTW lovin all this information guys, i cant even begin to tell you how much ive learned about F/I and even just engines in general since i became a member on the Vortex forum! you guys are the ****
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    14. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-04-2011 09:54 AM #154
      Nevermind i think its just a nicer looking power steering reservoir?? so just no more coolant or windshield fluid reservior either on your setup?
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    15. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      10-04-2011 10:17 AM #155
      mine






      Regans the man
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    16. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-04-2011 03:56 PM #156
      Interesting way to setup the intercooler piping
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    17. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      10-04-2011 04:09 PM #157
      Some people argue its less efficient, but I beg to differ. I just had to go with what I had, and I already had the intercooler, so I just made it the best I could.
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    18. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-04-2011 04:40 PM #158
      Catch can looks awesome! is that a smiley face on it? lol
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    19. Member .SLEEPYDUB.'s Avatar
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      10-04-2011 05:12 PM #159
      Nah, thats the Secret Services logo
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    20. Member One Gray GLI's Avatar
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      10-04-2011 10:31 PM #160
      Quote Originally Posted by joeeveryman87 View Post
      So do you not have a windshield washer reservoir either? and what is that black reservoir for that is between the catch can and what looks like your inline fuel pump? is that the new Coolant reservoir?
      coolant "tank" is on the driver side, behind the intake. you can see the radiator cap on the polished tank. it's easier than running the coolant lines across the manifold/turbo.

      and that's just a j-cap on the PS reservoir. and yes that's my fuel pump next to it. no need for the washer reservoir anyways.
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      10-05-2011 03:13 PM #161
      So i found an R32 head for $500 +$100 shipping 80k miles.......questions

      1. is this a good deal?

      2. will my 2.8 head vvt gears fit the R32 head?

      3. what else will i need from the R32 to make this work on the 2.8Lit.....fuel rail, MAF, throttle body.....???

      and is there even a point to get the R32's MAF, cause when i go F/I ill be getting a bigger one anyway, and same with the throttle boddy....

      Thanks Guys!
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    22. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 03:47 PM #162
      Fuel rail and intake manifold are basically required. The fuel rail is quite different, and the intake manifold bolts arent the same (almost -- just one of the bolts is off).

      Then whatever intake mani you get, you just need to bolt up a throttle body, and the MAF housing should match your tune.

      On the exhaust side all the bolts are the same so no problems there.
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    23. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 04:02 PM #163
      Quote Originally Posted by PhReE View Post
      Fuel rail and intake manifold are basically required. The fuel rail is quite different, and the intake manifold bolts arent the same (almost -- just one of the bolts is off).

      Then whatever intake mani you get, you just need to bolt up a throttle body, and the MAF housing should match your tune.

      On the exhaust side all the bolts are the same so no problems there.
      Thanks for the info Phree! Do you guys think the R32 head is worth the investment on a turbo application??
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    24. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 04:08 PM #164
      For $600, I would probably go for it. (But note that the r32 head takes different injectors, soooo it may complicate other things down the road. Make sure you can get all the stuff you need first.)

      Oh and I forgot to answer about the vvt stuff, yes your 2.8L stuff will all fit. The cams and cam gears are the same on 2.8L and 3.2L motors.
      -James
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    25. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 04:15 PM #165
      Quote Originally Posted by PhReE View Post
      Fuel rail and intake manifold are basically required. The fuel rail is quite different, and the intake manifold bolts arent the same (almost -- just one of the bolts is off).

      Then whatever intake mani you get, you just need to bolt up a throttle body, and the MAF housing should match your tune.

      On the exhaust side all the bolts are the same so no problems there.
      Well ill be getting new injectors and a new maf along with the turbo so I think it should all work out
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    26. Member One Gray GLI's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 04:44 PM #166
      you're forgetting..different head studs also. unsure on which HG you'd use though. spark plugs are different pitch/thread also.
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    27. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 05:39 PM #167
      Quote Originally Posted by One Gray GLI View Post
      you're forgetting..different head studs also. unsure on which HG you'd use though. spark plugs are different pitch/thread also.
      Yes, that's correct, the R32 motor uses smaller head bolts than the 2.8L to gain room for a larger bore. However I believe I have heard that the 2.8L sized head studs will fit in the R32 head.

      I'd use the 2.8L headgasket unless it shrouds the valves but I kinda doubt it does, if you look around there are threads from a few people who have done this and I bet you will be able to find out what they did.
      -James
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    28. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 05:51 PM #168
      Yes I read up in tomtom's thread(rebirth quest), he used stock 2.8 head gasket and custom ARP head studs and R32 fuel rail other than that the head fit nicely
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    29. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 06:20 PM #169
      If you're going to build a spacer motor I will be selling my spacer (you will need a new OEM head gasket to go with it) shortly.
      -James
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    30. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-05-2011 07:28 PM #170
      Quote Originally Posted by PhReE View Post
      If you're going to build a spacer motor I will be selling my spacer (you will need a new OEM head gasket to go with it) shortly.
      Thanks for the offer Phree, but I'm gonna go with JE rods and pistons anyway
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

    31. Member joeeveryman87's Avatar
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      10-21-2011 10:51 AM #171
      Just out of pure CURIOSITY has anyone ever heard of converting the FWD 24v to a RWD? Mostly this is just for ****s and giggles. Just off the top of my head I would think it may work by rotating the engine and tranni? Maybe just relocating the engine to the rear? Doin some sort of conversion from another car, maybe Porsche idk? Installing an R32 system and changing it to RWD only? And do you guys think this would just be totally rediculous, not because of money, but because of the geometry of the car as a FWD vehicle?

      Thanks guys, and like I said, I'm not trying this just curious on the idea, so let's hear your thoughts!!
      ..."understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car"...

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      10-21-2011 11:13 AM #172
      Turning the engine trans sidways won't help. You run a transaxle. You will need a transmission meant to be mounted longitudinally for front engine rear wheel drive setup.

      There is a video of a company (yellow GTI, i believe, search RWD GTI on youtube). They put the engine in the back mounted transversely (and it's turbo!).

      If you want to run the engine from the front you'll be cutting the middle part of the floor out to make a drive shaft tunnel, replacing the fuel tank to make room for the drave shaft and rear diff etc, and remember we have a solid rear axle. All that has to go too and you'll have to make custom mounting points for the diff as well as the independent rear suspension that you will need.

      Going with the haldex setup is the same thing, alot of fabrication. And if you go that route, why would you want to go RWD and not take advantage of the AWD?
      2002.5 Jetta 1.8T - TOTALED (dodging deer)
      2002.5 24v GTI - TOTALED (rear-ended by a Jeep)
      1992 Corrado SLC - Dead. Will be back.. stronger.
      2012 Golf R - Daily Driver Status

    33. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      10-21-2011 11:17 AM #173
      My 'Dream Swap' is currently this motor into a B5 S4 car with the audi 6-speed and the torsen setup, and of course a turbo (prolly the new GT37R )

      I bet with some time I could splice the stock ME7 into the B5 harness and get a working tach and maybe even traction control.
      -James
      04 GTI Silverstone 24vT :: GT35r - TT 264/260 - Unitronic 630cc - Bosch 044 - Area51 SRI - Full 3" TB :: More in progress
      >> http://zingledot.myminicity.com/ | http://sourceforge.net/projects/imagizer2 <<

    34. Moderator DannyLo's Avatar
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      10-21-2011 01:12 PM #174
      Quote Originally Posted by PhReE View Post
      My 'Dream Swap' is currently this motor into a B5 S4 car with the audi 6-speed and the torsen setup, and of course a turbo (prolly the new GT37R )

      I bet with some time I could splice the stock ME7 into the B5 harness and get a working tach and maybe even traction control.
      USP is getting there now 24v turbo S4 ready for competition


    35. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      10-21-2011 01:24 PM #175
      I know I know, there are a few out there.

      One day I will find a S4 with a blown motor on auction and swoop it up. One day.

      Mine would be a daily tho with all the plush creature comforts.

      The VR just looks like it was MADE for that bay.!!
      Last edited by PhReE; 10-21-2011 at 01:27 PM.
      -James
      04 GTI Silverstone 24vT :: GT35r - TT 264/260 - Unitronic 630cc - Bosch 044 - Area51 SRI - Full 3" TB :: More in progress
      >> http://zingledot.myminicity.com/ | http://sourceforge.net/projects/imagizer2 <<

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