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    Thread: clueless riders and stuff they say...

    1. Senior Member F1_Fan's Avatar
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      08-02-2011 04:02 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
      People don't realize that its physically impossible--that is, beyond the laws of physics--to get a motorcycle or bicycle to turn without some degree of counter steer.
      There is a fool-proof demo of this. Have them go through along sweeping corner (like a big circle in an empty parking lot) at city speed with one hand on the "inside" grip and the other hand off the bars (this obviously works best with the right hand on the bar). Once in the corner, push and pull gently on the grip.

      The need for counter-steering becomes really obvious since pushing on the right bar is the only way to get through a right sweeper w/o heading for the centre line.
      There's always money in the banana stand.

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      08-02-2011 04:40 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
      People don't realize that its physically impossible--that is, beyond the laws of physics--to get a motorcycle or bicycle to turn without some degree of counter steer.
      eh? So when I moving it in my garage and the wheel is at full lock in the direction I'm turning, I'm doing the impossible and defying the laws of physics? I'm the ****ing awesome!

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      08-02-2011 04:53 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by yzfwv View Post
      eh? So when I moving it in my garage and the wheel is at full lock in the direction I'm turning, I'm doing the impossible and defying the laws of physics? I'm the ****ing awesome!
      Under power, above 7mph (I think is the understood speed), you do not steer a single-track vehicle by moving the wheel in the direction you want to go, you countersteer it. It be a scientific fact, no use in arguing it.
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    4. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      08-02-2011 05:00 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by F1_Fan View Post
      There is a fool-proof demo of this. Have them go through along sweeping corner (like a big circle in an empty parking lot) at city speed with one hand on the "inside" grip and the other hand off the bars (this obviously works best with the right hand on the bar). Once in the corner, push and pull gently on the grip.

      The need for counter-steering becomes really obvious since pushing on the right bar is the only way to get through a right sweeper w/o heading for the centre line.
      this might be a dangerous proposition if they get overzealous with trying to prove you wrong
      Demokratikally Elekted Fist Lieutenant of the Outside Cavalry of the Independent People's Republik of Offtopikstan
      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

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      08-02-2011 05:17 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Under power, above 7mph (I think is the understood speed), you do not steer a single-track vehicle by moving the wheel in the direction you want to go, you countersteer it. It be a scientific fact, no use in arguing it.
      Sped wasn't stated in the previous reply.

    6. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-03-2011 12:25 AM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by yzfwv View Post
      Sped wasn't stated in the previous reply.
      "City speed" was used, for what that's worth. It's an implied speed floor.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

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      08-03-2011 10:03 AM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      "City speed" was used, for what that's worth. It's an implied speed floor.
      Uh, read it again. "City" and "speed" appear nowher in BXR140's post.

      Quote Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
      People don't realize that its physically impossible--that is, beyond the laws of physics--to get a motorcycle or bicycle to turn without some degree of counter steer.
      I mean, I could be blind, but I don't see those two words anywhere in that post.

    8. 08-03-2011 01:59 PM #43
      F1_Fan quoted it and then said to demo this go to a parking lot and ride at city speed...

      Regarding you turning the bars to move the bike in the garage, that is just like moving an object -- the countersteer thing comes in at speed/under power because of the gyroscopic forces or whatever that are going on.

      When I got my first bike and didn't know how to ride (literally) and jumped on the highway, then I wanted to change lanes, started trying to "steer" to the other lane, inched the OPPOSITE direction, that was scary.

      (Yes I did everything wrong with getting in to riding. I am still alive though. )

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      08-03-2011 02:09 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by jasonyates View Post
      F1_Fan quoted it and then said to demo this go to a parking lot and ride at city speed...

      Regarding you turning the bars to move the bike in the garage, that is just like moving an object -- the countersteer thing comes in at speed/under power because of the gyroscopic forces or whatever that are going on.

      When I got my first bike and didn't know how to ride (literally) and jumped on the highway, then I wanted to change lanes, started trying to "steer" to the other lane, inched the OPPOSITE direction, that was scary.

      (Yes I did everything wrong with getting in to riding. I am still alive though. )
      Annnnnnnd, I didn't quote F1_Fan. The words city and speed still appear nowhere in my post or the post I quoted.

    10. 08-03-2011 02:15 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by yzfwv View Post
      Annnnnnnd, I didn't quote F1_Fan. The words city and speed still appear nowhere in my post or the post I quoted.
      Do you ride? I don't. I have no idea why I am in this thread...

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      08-03-2011 02:17 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by jasonyates View Post
      Do you ride? I don't. I have no idea why I am in this thread...
      Yes.

    12. Senior Member F1_Fan's Avatar
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      08-03-2011 03:36 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by jasonyates View Post
      Regarding you turning the bars to move the bike in the garage, that is just like moving an object -- the countersteer thing comes in at speed/under power because of the gyroscopic forces or whatever that are going on.
      Ah there's nothing like a countersteering thread to get a motorcycle forum hopping!
      There's always money in the banana stand.

    13. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      08-03-2011 03:41 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by F1_Fan View Post
      Ah there's nothing like a countersteering thread to get a motorcycle forum hopping!
      a rear brake thread
      Demokratikally Elekted Fist Lieutenant of the Outside Cavalry of the Independent People's Republik of Offtopikstan
      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

    14. 08-03-2011 08:32 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by yzfwv View Post
      eh? So when I moving it in my garage and the wheel is at full lock in the direction I'm turning, I'm doing the impossible and defying the laws of physics? I'm the ****ing awesome!
      Yes, if the bike is in motion, you counter steer to initiate a change of direction even at slow speeds.

      To be clear, "countersteering" applies to both to the input (the physical action--pushing/pulling on the bars) and the output (the resulting bike geometry--specifically the change in steering angle of the front end) and the two are really decoupled. The former lasts through the turn to some degree or another (or at least, through ~half the turn, give or take the situation). The later only occurs at the beginning of the direction change.

      Again, to beat the horse, it is physically impossible to for a [moving] single track vehicle to change directions without that direction change being initiated by some measurable amount of opposite/counter steering angle. At speed, the most you'll see is a degree or so of counter angle, for no more than a second or so. At walking pace (in your garage), the magnitude and duration of the counter angle are so small that its easy to think it doesn't happen...but it does.

      After the counter angle initiates the turn, other forces take over and the steering angle does indeed point "into" the turn. Look down in a tight right hander and sure as **** your bars will be turned a noticeable amount to the right (if both tires have full traction). When you provide input to come out of that right hander, the bars will momentarily turn more right, then back to zero when the bike is basically upright.

      As for the physical action of countersteering, many people understand how it works at speed, because many people have played the push/pull game in a turn or on the freeway or wherever. The reason you hear things like "countersteering doesn't happen at low speeds" is because the other forces involved play a bigger part at lower speeds, so the need to actually push or pull on the bars to create the counter steer becomes negligible or even non existent.

      Quote Originally Posted by F1_Fan View Post
      There is a fool-proof demo of this. Have them go through along sweeping corner...
      Another interesting experiment is the hands off body "flick" to start a turn. You can absolutely use only your body to initiate a turn while coasting with no hands. It turns into a mess after the first split second because you're not doing the physical action of "countersteering" (and so fair warning if you die trying), but movement of your body to the right will pull the bike off the centerline to the right and will induce a left counter angle in the front end because the tires are still more or less "stuck" on the centerline (rake and trail come into play here). Result? Right turn initiated.

      But that's a whole 'nuther topic.
      Last edited by bxr140; 08-03-2011 at 08:42 PM.

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      08-03-2011 08:35 PM #50
      I am going to sit here quietly and take notes as this develops.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

    16. Senior Member F1_Fan's Avatar
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      08-03-2011 08:51 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
      Another interesting experiment is the hands off body "flick" to start a turn. You can absolutely use only your body to initiate a turn while coasting with no hands. It turns into a mess after the first split second...
      Yeah, I've tried this before. Messy is a good description. It is possible but we don't weigh enough to deal with the bike's inertia.

      When you weigh 8-10 times as much as the vehicle then it's sort of possible It doesn't hurt if you're nucking futs either.

      Last edited by F1_Fan; 08-03-2011 at 10:02 PM.
      There's always money in the banana stand.

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      08-04-2011 09:54 AM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
      Yes, if the bike is in motion, you counter steer to initiate a change of direction even at slow speeds.

      To be clear, "countersteering" applies to both to the input (the physical action--pushing/pulling on the bars) and the output (the resulting bike geometry--specifically the change in steering angle of the front end) and the two are really decoupled. The former lasts through the turn to some degree or another (or at least, through ~half the turn, give or take the situation). The later only occurs at the beginning of the direction change.

      Again, to beat the horse, it is physically impossible to for a [moving] single track vehicle to change directions without that direction change being initiated by some measurable amount of opposite/counter steering angle. At speed, the most you'll see is a degree or so of counter angle, for no more than a second or so. At walking pace (in your garage), the magnitude and duration of the counter angle are so small that its easy to think it doesn't happen...but it does.

      After the counter angle initiates the turn, other forces take over and the steering angle does indeed point "into" the turn. Look down in a tight right hander and sure as **** your bars will be turned a noticeable amount to the right (if both tires have full traction). When you provide input to come out of that right hander, the bars will momentarily turn more right, then back to zero when the bike is basically upright.

      As for the physical action of countersteering, many people understand how it works at speed, because many people have played the push/pull game in a turn or on the freeway or wherever. The reason you hear things like "countersteering doesn't happen at low speeds" is because the other forces involved play a bigger part at lower speeds, so the need to actually push or pull on the bars to create the counter steer becomes negligible or even non existent.



      Another interesting experiment is the hands off body "flick" to start a turn. You can absolutely use only your body to initiate a turn while coasting with no hands. It turns into a mess after the first split second because you're not doing the physical action of "countersteering" (and so fair warning if you die trying), but movement of your body to the right will pull the bike off the centerline to the right and will induce a left counter angle in the front end because the tires are still more or less "stuck" on the centerline (rake and trail come into play here). Result? Right turn initiated.

      But that's a whole 'nuther topic.


      My point was, I was being sarcastic. Moving my bike in my garage does not require counter steer. It's not moving. I don't have a 5,000 square foot garage.

      Should I use *SACRASM* tags in the future?

    18. Member Knock Sensor's Avatar
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      08-04-2011 11:46 AM #53
      Hey guys great talk about counter steering, keep up the good work!!!!111
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      08-04-2011 12:04 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by yzfwv View Post
      I don't have a 5,000 square foot garage:
      pfft you poor or something?

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      08-04-2011 12:17 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by Spinnaker View Post
      pfft you poor or something?
      I have one of these in mine:

      Germans are white people. Look up #84 on the list of things white people like: Gear. Lots of Gear. We even have gear farkles over here. -Atomicalex

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      08-04-2011 12:21 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      I have one of these in mine:
      But do you countersteer upside down?

    22. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      08-04-2011 12:26 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by Spinnaker View Post
      But do you countersteer upside down?
      silly_me doesn't counter steer. he counters sheep
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      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

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      08-04-2011 12:28 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by Spinnaker View Post
      pfft you poor or something?
      Yes.

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      08-04-2011 10:20 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by yzfwv View Post


      My point was, I was being sarcastic. Moving my bike in my garage does not require counter steer. It's not moving. I don't have a 5,000 square foot garage.

      Should I use *SACRASM* tags in the future?
      Just stop trolling.
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      08-05-2011 09:00 AM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Mtl-Marc View Post
      Just stop trolling.
      Just GFYS

      I can't help it you don't have a sense of humor.

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      08-07-2011 03:25 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
      I always give the classic one-word 'confusion tactic' response to that one:

      "Yes".
      Butting in here, I usually say "it's not as bad as my Nomex..."

      Quote Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
      Another interesting experiment is the hands off body "flick" to start a turn.
      I'm a bike n00b, but I just did exactly that in my training last friday. Have to do a 4.5m circle for my exam here in Germany, and the training is to throw your body over, look the turn direction, and idle around the circle. It's quite possible, as I managed to do it (after a few forays into the grass...).
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    27. 08-09-2011 01:59 AM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by yzfwv View Post
      I can't help it you don't have a sense of humor.
      Says the guy bent because people didn't get his attempt at "sarcasm".

    28. Member Spinnaker's Avatar
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      08-11-2011 11:07 AM #63
      What gets me sometimes is the CC to Liter conversion. Probably only an American issue. I remember talking to a guy with a Goldwing about how is 1.8 liter is the same size as my car's engine and he was like uh, it's actually 1800CC.

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      08-11-2011 11:27 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Spinnaker View Post
      What gets me sometimes is the CC to Liter conversion. Probably only an American issue. I remember talking to a guy with a Goldwing about how is 1.8 liter is the same size as my car's engine and he was like uh, it's actually 1800CC.
      math is hard yo.
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      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

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      08-22-2011 10:33 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by mad8vskillz View Post
      his comment after seeing it was that "it's because he's sitting higher up it gives him a higher center of gravity" even after countless explanations of rake/trail, reach, ergonomics, etc. he maintains that it's crucial to have a higher COG to turn. Countering this with "why wouldn't you just stand up on the pegs to turn" doesn't seem to get through to him.

      yes, 1 170lb cop, sitting 1" higher, allows for a 700lb harley to do this.
      Show him a CBR600 laying way down, way slow.
      http://www.dump.com/2011/02/24/unrea...-cbr600-video/
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    31. Senior Member F1_Fan's Avatar
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      08-22-2011 11:01 PM #66
      Unreal. The guy's knees don't drop at all and he doesn't even move his ass on the seat. Complete lack of douchebaggery.
      There's always money in the banana stand.

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      08-23-2011 01:45 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by F1_Fan View Post
      Unreal. The guy's knees don't drop at all and he doesn't even move his ass on the seat. Complete lack of douchebaggery.
      Admittly I could not finish it, the sound of the motor was bugging me. Certainly shows, you go where you look.
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      08-23-2011 11:40 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by F1_Fan View Post
      Unreal. The guy's knees don't drop at all and he doesn't even move his ass on the seat. Complete lack of douchebaggery.
      I did not watch the video, but are you saying hanging off the bike is douchebaggery?

    34. 08-24-2011 01:40 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Spinnaker View Post
      He then goes on this 'you crotch rocket guys' speech.
      I find people that feel the need to diffrentiate riders by what they ride to be the most clueless.

      People ride what they like, and what they can afford. It's all the same hobby for christ sake.
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      08-24-2011 02:17 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by F1_Fan View Post
      Unreal. The guy's knees don't drop at all and he doesn't even move his ass on the seat. Complete lack of douchebaggery.
      too slow to need to hang off and maybe more need to counterbalance?
      not enough time between maneuvers to switch positions?
      Bolt-upright sitting position with big riser bars for ease of turnin?
      Demokratikally Elekted Fist Lieutenant of the Outside Cavalry of the Independent People's Republik of Offtopikstan
      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

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