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    Thread: Heads up, Larry~! 1930 birthdate for this Packard... 1910 birthdate for the driver....

    1. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      07-27-2011 04:56 PM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      How would you turn?
      Poorly, I assume. You'd have to ask the man that owns one.

      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      07-27-2011 06:18 PM #142
      So I take it that the front wheels turn right and left (sort of ) but the spats stay in place.

      That can't make for that much of a turning circle.

      Phantom Corsair of 1938.... sort of beat hammered out panels and then set on a Cord chassis?


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      07-27-2011 06:37 PM #143
      Makes me think of a 1930's Batmobile.
      Ron a.k.a. Arsigi
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    4. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-27-2011 06:58 PM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Poorly, I assume. You'd have to ask the man that owns one.

      In order to have any turning radius at all the wheels had to be set way inboard, giving it kind of a retarded look from the front and rear. The early 356 was like that, too, its least attractive feature.



      Look behind the Scarab. We both received nearly the highest awards at Eyes on Design in 2003. We received the "Automotive Design of Exceptional Merit". Mine was awarded by Tom Gale, Chrysler designer. I cherish that award above all others.

      That is a very cool show. It benefits the Detroit Institute of Opthalmology, featuring judging by a group of white-gloved blind people. They pick some some interesting automobiles. I get almost the same feedback when polishing my cars that are sculptural, like the Porsche. I know the car so well, I could probably wax it blindfolded.
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

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      07-27-2011 08:07 PM #145
      Nice to hear about the different judging panels you've faced, Barry.

      Always great to hear some of the background bits and pieces of these showcase venues.



      And always fun to see the photos of the strange creations, as in that black stealth auto.

      Even though I've seen pictures of it before, it's really amazing to look at from several different angles

      That Phantom Corsair is simply super-slick~!!

      (though I'm not quite sure the name Scarab is the correct identifier, perhaps you are using Scarab more as a describer of another beetle shape)

      Quote Originally Posted by mitch hedberg
      I drive a rental car, I don't know what's going on with it, right? So a lot of times I'll drive for like 10 miles with the emergency brake on. That doesn't say a lot for me, but it really doesn't say a lot for the emergency brake.
      Quote Originally Posted by Robstr View Post
      How hard is that to understand without getting your panties in a bunch?
      Surely some of you guys managed to make it out of middle school.

    6. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-27-2011 08:23 PM #146
      You are correct. A friend of mine owns a Stout Scarab and I get the names mixed up.

      I watched it being restored. very cool project.

      Garmin Is My Pilot.

      I am confident you are wrong, but instead of illustrating why, I will just make disparaging remarks about your reading comprehension.
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      07-27-2011 09:38 PM #147
      The extreme solution to the problem of steered wheels covered by sheetmetal was taken most famously by Nash, when they built the aerodynamically designed Airflyte for 1949. The front track was inordinately narrow; much narrower than the rear track, and even so, the maximum angle the steered wheels could take was very shallow, which made these cars difficult in U-turns and certain parking situations. But Nils Walberg, Nash's visionary chief engineer, went ahead with the project, compromises and all, in the interest of advancing automotive aerodynamics and efficiency via the shrouding of all four wheels in a smooth enclosure:



      In recent years, Ford Motor Company revisited the possibilities of shrouded steered wheels with its major concept showcase of the early eighties, the Probe IV. With this car, the front wheels steered normally, and had "hat" inner fenders that enclosed the wheels to mid-point. The outer skin adjacent to the tire and wheel was made of a flexible polymer that the hat, when the wheels were steered into the outer skin, would cause to stretch out of the way, and then resume its original profile when the wheels straightened out. Oddball, but interesting:

      Do you enjoy old cars and long-winded stories about them? If your answer is "yes", then you might enjoy my blogpage. Try it here: http://vwlarry.blogspot.com . Leave a comment, too; I love feedback! Thanx for reading.

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    8. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      07-27-2011 10:12 PM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by vwlarry View Post
      In recent years, Ford Motor Company revisited the possibilities of shrouded steered wheels with its major concept showcase of the early eighties, the Probe IV. With this car, the front wheels steered normally, and had "hat" inner fenders that enclosed the wheels to mid-point. The outer skin adjacent to the tire and wheel was made of a flexible polymer that the hat, when the wheels were steered into the outer skin, would cause to stretch out of the way, and then resume its original profile when the wheels straightened out. Oddball, but interesting:

      I remember that layout and almost mentioned that. I don't think I've ever seen the actual photos of the car, I've only seen the plan drawings (In Popular Mechanics, I think). It's a very ingenious solution in my opinion.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    9. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      07-27-2011 10:14 PM #149
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      A friend of mine owns a Stout Scarab...
      OK, that's so damn cool I can't stand it!

      My friends with 'exotic' cars are driving things like old Triumphs, MR2s and 356s. I don't know anyone with anything as wacky as a Stout Scarab.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      07-27-2011 10:24 PM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      OK, that's so damn cool I can't stand it!

      My friends with 'exotic' cars are driving things like old Triumphs, MR2s and 356s. I don't know anyone with anything as wacky as a Stout Scarab.
      He owns the body shop that resurrected our flattened Porsche. Actually, he owns a chain of high-end body shops. My Porsche was always in good company. I would stop in and see the progress on the Scarab. I believe he told me that his car was used as a map vehicle for US command during WWII. It may have been BS, but it makes a great story. It had a flathead Ford in the rear and a woven bamboo headliner. It appeared to me to be a very early minivan.

      I've seen him buy a classic or sports car, just to keep his top employees busy during slack times. His cars are perfect and he has a Ferrari in his foyer. What's not to like?
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

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    11. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      07-27-2011 10:29 PM #151
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I've seen him buy a classic or sports car, just to keep his top employees busy during slack times. His cars are perfect and he has a Ferrari in his foyer. What's not to like?
      "Hmmm. You guys aren't doing much right now, why don't you pound on this old XK120 I dug up?"
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      07-27-2011 11:48 PM #152
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      You are correct. A friend of mine owns a Stout Scarab and I get the names mixed up.

      I watched it being restored. very cool project.

      Stout Scarab... Yes, that's what I thought you were probably referring to.

      Pretty fascinating that you have a friend who restored one (to concours status, of course).

      Built by William Stout in 1936

      He described it thusly:

      The Scarab "creates a commotion wherever it goes," says Schneider, adding that with all-wheel independent suspension it rides quietly, "exceptionally smooth and stable." Considerably better, in fact, than his 1936 Fords, with much lighter steering. The only serious flaw is limited rearward visibility.

      For all I know, this might be your friend's Scarab.




      Quote Originally Posted by mitch hedberg
      I drive a rental car, I don't know what's going on with it, right? So a lot of times I'll drive for like 10 miles with the emergency brake on. That doesn't say a lot for me, but it really doesn't say a lot for the emergency brake.
      Quote Originally Posted by Robstr View Post
      How hard is that to understand without getting your panties in a bunch?
      Surely some of you guys managed to make it out of middle school.

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      07-28-2011 01:20 AM #153
      Only 9 built. Just 5 still in existence









      The car shown (the two lower pictures) was once part of the famous Harrah's Collection in Reno, Nevada. It was purchased by the current owner (possibly Barry's friend)in 1983, and has since had a ground-up restoration. The work included complete mechanical restoration as well as a new woven wood headliner.

      Quote Originally Posted by vwlarry View Post
      That's the dumbest goddamned bunch of jerkoffs I have EVER seen.
      Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
      When people say "clean as a whistle", they forget that a whistle is full of spit

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      07-28-2011 04:14 AM #154
      Powering up the Scarab?

      Ford Flathead V8 power in the rear.










      Quote Originally Posted by Harry S. Truman
      Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day

    15. Get Off My Lawn!!! vwlarry's Avatar
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      07-28-2011 08:05 AM #155
      Perhaps the most interesting, and to modern eyes, bizarre feature of the Scarabs was their detached seating. The chairs were not bolted to the floor, but rather sat on a grippy rubber mat that was supposed to hold them wherever they were placed. If there has been a greater and more effective evolution in automotive design than in the field of occupant safety, I can't think of one.

      Do you enjoy old cars and long-winded stories about them? If your answer is "yes", then you might enjoy my blogpage. Try it here: http://vwlarry.blogspot.com . Leave a comment, too; I love feedback! Thanx for reading.

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      07-28-2011 10:31 AM #156
      That looks exactly like the Scarab that was at Indy in May. I spent at least an hour walking all around it, taking it in. Looks like something that might have been built in the '50s or '60s, not the '30s.

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      07-28-2011 11:09 AM #157
      ^^

      Wow... so that's what they were referring to when they were talking about "flexi-seating"









      Barry, your friend's comment about WWII map car may some grounding in actuality according to the comments below. Sounds like Ike may have used a Scarab but more than likely the lucky Scarab got scooped up and turned French speaking early on, later to land the lucky job with Dwight D.

      And the last comment really shows it was lucky to have survived the Big Top!!



      Lots of photos, but most are of cars in the U.S.




      This car is one of probably nine that were built by William Stout, an aeronautical engineer in Dearborn, MI. It was sold to a French publishing magnate and spent its entire life in France, supposedly used by General Eisenhower in North Africa and then by General DeGaulle. It was then used by a circus to house monkeys until Philippe Charbonneaux, a French automotive designer, bought it in the early sixties for his museum.


      This is perhaps the French car on display in Genoa, Italy

      Last edited by BumpSteer; 07-28-2011 at 11:14 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by TheBurninator View Post
      Wheel gap is like women, the more fingers you can fit the worse off you are

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      07-28-2011 11:59 AM #158
      Fantastic!













      "The car with a bar"

      Quote Originally Posted by alleghenyman View Post
      All of the rust, bondo, and patchwork done with old street signs gives them the crash safety of a cake decoration.

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      07-28-2011 12:52 PM #159
      Absolutely hilarious article in Jalopy Journal 2008

      http://www.jalopyjournal.com/?p=3094



      We’ve talked about the Airflow and the Dymaxion before, but we’ve never really touched on the Stout Scarab and all of its wierdness. It all started with a loon…
      William B. Stout was an aviator and motor journalist (Motor Age) with a wondering mind. While on a cross country trip with this family, William began to ponder the inefficiencies of the automobile when used as a long hauler. We’ve all been there… He was cramped, his ass hurt, his back hurt, he was tired of the kids screaming, and tired of his wife’s toe prints on the front windshield as she “reclined” in the passenger seat. There had to be a better way.
      Upon arriving home, William began to brainstorm and sketch his ideas as he went along. After a few packs of cigarettes, a few gallons of coffee, and a couple of sleepless nights, he got it figured. The Stout would have unit body construction, be made of aluminum, and constructed with mechanically proven parts. The Ford flathead was located towards the rear of the car and shifted with a 3-speed box/transaxle of Stout’s own design. Independent front and rear suspension systems were sprung with air-assisted coils and located some 135-inches from each other.
      [/QUOTE]

      The wide body would be as slippery of a shape as an antique mind could figure and would feature a wide, body-over-wheels design. The idea was to create an interior more spacious and flexible than had ever been imagined. As a result, some crazy configurations were available to the lucky few Stout owners. While the driver’s seat was in a fixed position, the other seats were mounted on tracks and were capable of spinning, reclining, and for/aft movement. This allowed for a comfy cot to be reside towards the rear of the car and an optional card table to be constructed in the center. All of the conveniences of home while on the road.
      Of course, the Stout Scarab never really made it. Most folks think that around nine were build between 1934 and 1939, but there is no official figure. William threw in the towel and lost to the Detroit big boys, but gave them one hell of a shot – don’t ya think?














      Dash (and doors) rumored to be cast out of magnesium. True?
      Quote Originally Posted by vwlarry View Post
      That's the dumbest goddamned bunch of jerkoffs I have EVER seen.
      Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
      When people say "clean as a whistle", they forget that a whistle is full of spit

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      07-28-2011 12:55 PM #160
      Very cool!
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      07-28-2011 02:05 PM #161
      William Stout's motto:

      "Simplicate, then add lightness"
      Sounds like a lot of designers would do well to follow this dictum

      Quote Originally Posted by Blackohio
      Built in boost gauge in the dash. One of my friends at the time saw that turbo was on theoretical empty and asked if we needed to stop and get more turbo. I gave it gas and he was like wait, its full now. Had to quickly explain the process.
      Quote Originally Posted by Calcvictim View Post
      so basically the OP has no clue about anything and just posts out of his ass?

    22. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      07-28-2011 02:05 PM #162
      ... learning more about the Scarab. Thanks, guys.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      07-28-2011 03:13 PM #163
      I can definitely see Dwight Eisenhower poring over maps in a Scarab in the midst of World War II.












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      07-28-2011 03:18 PM #164
      You'll fit in nicely here. Just avoid the stupidity, if you can.
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

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      07-28-2011 03:47 PM #165
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      You'll fit in nicely here. Just avoid the stupidity, if you can.
      Ah so...

      I very studious grasshopper!



      (And generally speaking) Without a case of the stupids.

      Occasionally I may misname something or get a reference wrong, but I don't mind being corrected.

      After all, there is such a wealth of information available that resides in so many TCL old hands here (I've been lurking and watching) that someone is always going to know way more than any one individual.

      Perhaps I should amend that and remind myself that Larry has got a long suit in information and it appears that you've got a long suit in experience within the heady world of classic restorative detail.

      It amazes me when I hear of some of the painstaking, mind numbing tasks that go into getting these cars in shape. (As well as the money....)

      That Scarab in North Carolina was purchased for 20,000 dollars from Bill Harrah's estate in the '80's and then the buyer dropped a cool 300,000 dollars into getting it from rough to awesome.



      http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/north_c...re-scarab-auto

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      07-28-2011 04:23 PM #166
      That's a pretty involved headliner there. Woven wood is what the references say.








      Quote Originally Posted by David Votoupal
      The car sucked in every way imaginable, that it entered the annals as one of the worst cars ever built. It was shoddily built in a plant where labour relations were atrocious. It rusted like hell, and the aluminium engine had the durability of a soggy potato chip. Few cars could have been so thoroughly bad Despite the "explosion" controversy, the Ford Pinto compared favourably to the Vega, and that's saying something.

    27. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-28-2011 05:10 PM #167
      Quote Originally Posted by jeff james View Post
      Perhaps I should amend that and remind myself that Larry has got a long suit in information and it appears that you've got a long suit in experience within the heady world of classic restorative detail.
      It appears that I am the only one on TCL that shows their cars on the Concours circuit. I often have trouble dispelling the myths about Concours being snooty events, as they are not. What people don't realize is that Concours are just a beauty contest. The condition of the car rarely matters. On Sunday I'll be showing an unrestored 1933 Continental Flyer with just over 50,000 miles on it. I believe it is the only Flyer extant that's running. The car was repainted sometime in the last 40 years and the interior was done 30 years ago. However, it was never restored, making it a "Survivor". Those cars get special interest, just because of what they are. My $13,000 car may be parked next to one worth a million dollars, but nobody cares.

      For people that are unaware, Concours' started in Paris in the early days of the automobile. Wealthy people would travel great distances to a wide-open place where tents were set up to show the latest in art, fur, jewelry, furniture, perfumes, automobiles and other sundries associated with the wealthy. Having all of those vendors in one place gave the wealthy access to goods they desired, but could not obtain in their home towns. There were no car dealership networks as we know them. Today's Concours are quite different as the cars are not for sale, but automotive art is. There are vendors for lifestyle items, but their show space is comparatively small.

      I believe that the overtones of perceived snooty may derive from the black-tie events that typically precede the car show the evening before. These are often not attended by the exhibitors, but by local patrons of the arts. It's an annual event where local gentry gather to be seen all gussied up and bejeweled. That's a far cry from what you see on the show field. There is no dress code for the visitors, yet the exhibitors are encouraged to wear period-correct clothing. I typically wear a Hawaiian shirt, sans gold chains.

      Getting invited isn't real difficult. All concours have nominating forms. All shows have selection committees. Our job is to pick cars that are unaltered from their original form. There are plenty of shows for modified vehicles, so they are typically not invited. Customized cars are only invited if there is a class for them as they shouldn't compete against factory originals. Interestingly, my '56 Continental Mark II convertible is a custom, but was factory authorized and done by a recognized prototype shop. Typically, custom cars need to be made from new cars, but not always.

      Many re-bodied cars of the '20s and '30s are widely accepted if they were done by recognized coach builders. Back-yard customs are not welcome if they can't provide provenance. The biggest problem these days is determining what is real and what is not. Several expensive cars have been broken up to build duplicates of the originals using just enough original parts to fool the experts.

      Concours are outdoor museums that gather so many spectacular cars in one place that it's hard to take it all in. They are typically at least as interesting as the big collection, and you get all new cars every year. Ticket prices are steep, but the money usually goes to charity. It lets you have a good time while doing something good.

      Automobiles are the great equalizer.
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

      I am confident you are wrong, but instead of illustrating why, I will just make disparaging remarks about your reading comprehension.
      -Zukjimpiphile

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      07-28-2011 05:53 PM #168
      ^

      Nicely stated and does take the Concours more down to earth for the rest of us. And happy to understand now that the Hawaiian shirt is your calling card!

      Seems there was some pic of you dwarfing your MarkII wearing that signature bit of clothing.

      Can't find it right now.

      At any rate, great explanation for the whole mix of what happens in the outdoor setting and thanks a bunch for that.


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      07-28-2011 06:21 PM #169
      ooops

      I was wrong. No Hawaiian shirt

      Still casual, just like you said.



      Special Interest Indeed.

      Nice. What a car.


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      07-28-2011 07:13 PM #170
      Speaking of the Flyer. Nice to see Lady Wolk in the news again.



      Barry and Glynette Wolk, of Farmington Hills, will return to the Concours this year with their 1933 Continental Flyer, built by the Continental Motor Company, which is now famous for its aircraft engines.
      The car was only built for one year with about 1,700 made. Valued in the scrap drives of World War II because of its unusual all-steel body, most were destroyed. There may be 10 of them left in the world.
      “This is a 50,000 mile, unrestored ‘survivor’ in excellent shape that my husband, Barry, has been driving on a regular basis,” said Glynette Wolk. “Although it’s a very small car, the original owner was 6-foot, 9-inches tall. We are the third owners of this 77-year-old beauty.”
      The Wolks, in prior years, showed their 1956 Continental Mark II convertible and their ‘55 Porsche Continental cabriolet at the Concours.
      “We’re excited about having another opportunity to participate in the Concours and hang out with ‘car people,’” said Glynette
      http://www.hometownlife.com/article/...yssey=nav|head

      Man, that car is in excellent shape and gorgeous. You've really shined it up!

      (and of course, Lady Wolk looks great as well)

      Last edited by audifans; 07-28-2011 at 07:15 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Blackohio
      Built in boost gauge in the dash. One of my friends at the time saw that turbo was on theoretical empty and asked if we needed to stop and get more turbo. I gave it gas and he was like wait, its full now. Had to quickly explain the process.
      Quote Originally Posted by Calcvictim View Post
      so basically the OP has no clue about anything and just posts out of his ass?

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      07-28-2011 08:13 PM #171
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Wait. That's a Hudson in the background.

      A+ thread, guys.
      Absolutely there is a Hudson.

      What with all this high cachet iron running around, I wasn't for sure whether to showcase the Hornet

      Here ya go!



      Quote Originally Posted by vwlarry View Post
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    32. Get Off My Lawn!!! vwlarry's Avatar
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      07-28-2011 08:32 PM #172
      Quote Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
      [IMG]Absolutely there is a Hudson.

      What with all this high cachet iron running around, I wasn't for sure whether to showcase the Hornet

      Here ya go!



      A heads-up for Hudson-ites: Collectible Automobile magazine's new issue (received it today) features the '51-57 Hornets, which range from the first, "true" Hornets like the one above, to the final, kind of sad, yet interesting "Hash" models (Hudsons cobbled from Nashes) for '57. As always, a great story from a great magazine.
      Do you enjoy old cars and long-winded stories about them? If your answer is "yes", then you might enjoy my blogpage. Try it here: http://vwlarry.blogspot.com . Leave a comment, too; I love feedback! Thanx for reading.

      “To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.” - Aristotle

    33. Get Off My Lawn!!! vwlarry's Avatar
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      07-28-2011 08:37 PM #173
      If you watch the Stout Scarab video VERY closely, you can detect the slight lack of straight-line stability that one might expect from a car with a severe rearward weight-bias, likely a very far forward center of pressure, a narrow track, a solid front axle, and bias-ply tires running at high pressure. The driver looks like he's almost veering from side-to-side a few times, almost as if he's driving an early VW Microbus at top speed.

      Jeez how I love rear-engined cars, warts and all!
      Do you enjoy old cars and long-winded stories about them? If your answer is "yes", then you might enjoy my blogpage. Try it here: http://vwlarry.blogspot.com . Leave a comment, too; I love feedback! Thanx for reading.

      “To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.” - Aristotle

    34. Member
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      07-28-2011 09:06 PM #174
      Quote Originally Posted by vwlarry View Post
      If you watch the Stout Scarab video VERY closely, you can detect the slight lack of straight-line stability that one might expect from a car with a severe rearward weight-bias, likely a very far forward center of pressure, a narrow track, a solid front axle, and bias-ply tires running at high pressure. The driver looks like he's almost veering from side-to-side a few times, almost as if he's driving an early VW Microbus at top speed.

      Jeez how I love rear-engined cars, warts and all!
      heh, heh... that's funny, Larry and I believe you are right about the video.

      I thought it was part of the whole "other worldly effect" that was being highlighted in that presentation. That and the jerky movie frame jitters of the era.

      I didn't even consider the damn thing might have been on the verge.......early VW microbus!!!???

      Whoa.. now you talking some serious drivability challenges.

      And I can't say I really love that rearward weight shift. Sort of like driving something attached to the hammer of Thor in the back and it keeps wanting to throw you off center like it's got a mind of it's own.

      (at least the Scarab wouldn't have had the additional problems of cross wind barn door status that the microbus had)



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    35. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      07-28-2011 09:43 PM #175
      Quote Originally Posted by jeff james View Post
      ^

      Nicely stated and does take the Concours more down to earth for the rest of us.
      I am the rest of you. I earned my fortune one light bulb at a time. I'm an electrician that has an 8'6" reach, flat-footed. I was the guy that pulled rope through the attics of what seemed like a million new homes in the building boom of the '70s. I got to hang all the light fixtures, as I didn't need a ladder. My boss hired a helper for me when I was still a young apprentice, to clean up after me and keep me supplied with things that kept my hands up in the air.

      I started this lighting installation and maintenance business 34 years ago. My claim to fame is that I've been in business that long and have never been sued. Changing light bulbs has been very, very, good to me.

      The beauty of the Concours experience is that you get to rub elbows with the rich and famous, without being either.
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