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    Thread: Proposed 2025 CAFE Standards - VWoA Does Not Approve

    1. 07-29-2011 08:51 PM #1
      While most major automakers approve; some had even wanted higher standards.

      Statement by Tony Cervone, Executive Vice President, Communications, Volkswagen Group of America Regarding Proposed CAFE Standards

      The Volkswagen Group is a global leader in fuel efficiency and associated technologies, and we are committed to the ongoing negotiations with the White House on reaching maximum achievable fuel economy/GHG reduction standards.

      Volkswagen does not endorse the proposal under discussion. It places an unfairly high burden on passenger cars, while allowing special compliance flexibility for heavier light trucks. Passenger cars would be required to achieve 5% annual improvements, and light trucks 3.5% annual improvements. The largest trucks carry almost no burden for the 2017-2020 timeframe, and are granted numerous ways to mathematically meet targets in the outlying years without significant real-world gains.

      The proposal encourages manufacturers and customers to shift toward larger, less efficient vehicles, defeating the goal of reduced greenhouse gas emissions.

      Volkswagen Group clean diesel products are among the most fuel efficient vehicles on the road today. Our new mid-size Passat TDI, built here in the US in Chattanooga, TN, achieves 43 mpg highway and can travel almost 800 miles on a single tank of fuel. If one-third of the vehicles on the road today were clean diesel, the US would save 1.4 million barrels of oil a day. Yet there is no consideration in the current proposal for the positive impact clean diesels can have on fuel consumption here in the US.

      We look forward to continuing our discussions with the White House to achieve the "one nation standard" that is fair and equitable.
      http://media.vw.com/press_releases/s...cafe-standards

    2. Senior Member Lwize's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 09:16 PM #2
      VWoA is still pushing their own MPG agenda.

      The 2012 Passat TDI gets an EPA 40 HWY, but VW keeps saying "43".
      :gift:

    3. Member QUIRKiT's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 09:27 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by Lwize View Post
      VWoA is still pushing their own MPG agenda.

      The 2012 Passat TDI gets an EPA 40 HWY, but VW keeps saying "43".
      The EPA puts the Jetta TDI at 42 HWY and it routinely returns low 50's. So, it's really not BS.

      And let them "push their own MPG agenda," because they do just as well in EPA figures as the hybrids.
      Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Dreadz View Post
      This place is going to hell on a Thule roof rack.

    4. Banned Saintor's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 09:30 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by Lwize View Post
      VWoA is still pushing their own MPG agenda.

      The 2012 Passat TDI gets an EPA 40 HWY, but VW keeps saying "43".

      43 manual
      40 auto

    5. Member bzcat's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 09:31 PM #5
      The solution is so obvious and simple... VW should start selling trucks here too.

    6. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 09:34 PM #6
      I'll preface this by saying I'm a huge fan of the TDI. My parents are buying a new car and I'm pushing them towards a TDI, hard. However...

      Quote Originally Posted by KamelReds View Post
      The EPA puts the Jetta TDI at 42 HWY and it routinely returns low 50's.
      No, it doesn't.

      Quote Originally Posted by KamelReds View Post
      And let them "push their own MPG agenda," because they do just as well in EPA figures as the hybrids.
      No, they don't.

    7. Member eunos94's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 09:37 PM #7
      If the Big 3 had to meet those standards on their trucks then Volkswagen would bring in their truck because now it would have a leveled playing field since the others would have to increase the prices and offer up clean diesels as a way of complying. Makes sense to me and I'm rooting for VWoA on this one.

      I'm all for more efficient vehicles and especially in the large truck segment.
      ■■■■■■■■■■■■

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      07-29-2011 09:40 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      The solution is so obvious and simple... VW should start selling trucks here too.
      Yes, this.

      Bring the Amarok, make a 3 row crossover. All classified as light trucks

    9. Banned Saintor's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 09:49 PM #9
      Apparently not many people saw the Amarok in real life. I saw a few at a Puerto Plata VW dealer. They looked cheap and the price was like 40K$.

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      07-29-2011 10:28 PM #10
      vwoa doesnt approve...because they're right

    11. Member QUIRKiT's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 10:47 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      I'll preface this by saying I'm a huge fan of the TDI. My parents are buying a new car and I'm pushing them towards a TDI, hard. However...



      No, it doesn't.



      No, they don't.
      I'll preface this by saying, I have facts and articles:

      New VW Jetta TDi Tops Prius in Fuel Economy Marathon Test

      Hybrid vs. Diesel

      Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid vs. Diesel
      The Jetta TDI is a better-rounded car, unquestionably. The SportWagen is pricier than the sedan but exceptionally roomy and practical. With the TDI engine, both are compelling packages for the money-minded, environmentally conscious, one-car family that likes to move around a lot, do plenty and carry lots of stuff. And what family doesn't?
      Are We There Yet?

      Quote Originally Posted by Are We There Yet?
      Our fuel station was offering up B20 biodiesel, 20 percent of which comes from vegetable oil, animal fats and other sources, meaning that from an environmentalist's perspective the German diesel didn't just beat the Japanese hybrids, it trounced them. Not only that, it had more than half of its 14.5-gallon tank left at the end-it could have made the same trip again without refueling! Our example was pretty much a stripper, absent even the usual VW trip computer, so we had no instant feedback loop on our performance. Maybe if we'd had that, we could have nudged the economy from 49.9 mpg into the 50-mpg range.
      Honda Civic Hybrid takes on Chevy Cruze ECO and Volkswagen Jetta TDi

      Quote Originally Posted by AutoBlog
      As expected, the TDI's excellent highway manners resulted in 50.3 mpg here. In fact, in many other experiences with driving the Jetta TDI on the highway, we find that 50-plus mpg is significantly easier to achieve than you might think
      Last edited by QUIRKiT; 07-29-2011 at 10:48 PM. Reason: Fixed some BBCode
      Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Dreadz View Post
      This place is going to hell on a Thule roof rack.

    12. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 10:51 PM #12
      VW is one of the best automakers posed to meet the future goals with so many TDI and small car sales, so I doubt that's why they object.

      It would appear to be out of principle - espeically considering the mass of light truck sales in the US.

      I can't really disagree. Fair is fair.

    13. Member QUIRKiT's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 10:59 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Shomegrown View Post
      VW is one of the best automakers posed to meet the future goals with so many TDI and small car sales, so I doubt that's why they object.

      It would appear to be out of principle - espeically considering the mass of light truck sales in the US.

      I can't really disagree. Fair is fair.
      That's exactly my sentiment's as well. Why are they putting cars on a such a pedestal? I'm sure if the large auto manufacturers put their resources into it, within a decade they would have the same improvements that they have gotten from cars.

      I'm not talking 50mpg trucks, I'm talking about the way economy cars have almost doubled their highway economy in the past decade. When I first started driving, a car that got 25mpg HWY was good mileage...
      Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Dreadz View Post
      This place is going to hell on a Thule roof rack.

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      07-29-2011 11:14 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by KamelReds View Post
      The EPA puts the Jetta TDI at 42 HWY and it routinely returns low 50's. So, it's really not BS.

      And let them "push their own MPG agenda," because they do just as well in EPA figures as the hybrids.
      Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. New hybrids such as the latest generation Prius outclass new TDI's in fuel economy.




    15. Swallow Doretti
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      07-29-2011 11:26 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by eunos94 View Post
      If the Big 3 had to meet those standards on their trucks then Volkswagen would bring in their truck because now it would have a leveled playing field since the others would have to increase the prices and offer up clean diesels as a way of complying. Makes sense to me and I'm rooting for VWoA on this one.
      Except VW still would have failed at trucks, because higher fuel economy standards wouldn't have "leveled the truck playing field for them," or whatever you think it might have done. They still would have had to build trucks that actually met the needs of the US market, which are vastly different than those in Europe. See: Nissan NV Van.

      And VW is whining because they're nowhere near meeting the new standards. They may have diesels to help them meet the standards, but they can't figure out how to get those kinds of EPA numbers out of their gas models like, well, every other major automaker selling in the US, and they need to do so in order to be compliant. They're hoping that those other automakers will be forced to to rely more on diesels to meet the standards, but the reality is that competitors like GM, Toyota and Hyundai have plenty of other tricks up their sleeves than just that to meet the standards, and VW has yet to do it.

    16. Member QUIRKiT's Avatar
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      07-29-2011 11:29 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by emmettlodge View Post
      Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. New hybrids such as the latest generation Prius outclass new TDI's in fuel economy.

      *snip*
      I have yet to mention average economy, all I've mentioned is highway. Of course hybrids are going to have a better average economy, when you've got a battery taking care of your city driving it's going to happen.

      If VW put a hybrid powertrain in the Jetta/Passat, I'm sure you would see the same, if not better, results.

      GLW your parents car search.
      Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Dreadz View Post
      This place is going to hell on a Thule roof rack.

    17. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      07-30-2011 12:09 AM #17
      Barely breaking 50 MPG is not "routinely returning low 50s." And you won't get 50 MPG on the highway driving normally in a TDI.

    18. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      07-30-2011 12:11 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by KamelReds View Post
      I have yet to mention average economy, all I've mentioned is highway. Of course hybrids are going to have a better average economy, when you've got a battery taking care of your city driving it's going to happen.
      The Prius also bests the TDI in highway economy, too.

      Quote Originally Posted by KamelReds View Post
      GLW your parents car search.
      That was me, not him.

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      07-30-2011 12:25 AM #19
      Does this mean no more NSX replacement?

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      07-30-2011 12:27 AM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      I'll preface this by saying I'm a huge fan of the TDI. My parents are buying a new car and I'm pushing them towards a TDI, hard. However...


      Quote Originally Posted by KamelReds View Post
      The EPA puts the Jetta TDI at 42 HWY and it routinely returns low 50's.
      No, it doesn't.
      On a rural highway I've got mid 4L/100kms range (4.3-4.5L/100kms) if I actually try to drive economically. Around 52-54mpg. Definitely not on an express highway, but if you're driving very easily on a rural highway with an 80kph (50mph) limit... they break 50mpg. Still high 40's doing 100kph (60 mph). I think at 55mph (still a speed limit on a lot of US highways) you could hit 50mpg.

      You're right about routinely being an incorrect word, but depending on the driver and the road he used... 50mpg is possible to average.

    21. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      07-30-2011 12:31 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Live-Wire View Post
      You're right about routinely being an incorrect word, but depending on the driver and the road he used... 50mpg is possible to average.
      Agreed.

    22. 07-30-2011 12:40 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      The Prius also bests the TDI in highway economy, too.



      That was me, not him.
      Oh stop it. It's a freeking Prius.

      Nobody with testicles drives a Prius.

    23. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      07-30-2011 01:23 AM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Gbeav View Post
      Oh stop it. It's a freeking Prius.

      Nobody with testicles drives a Prius.
      Actually, nobody with proverbial "testicles" links their manliness so strongly with the car they drive. Men drive what they like. Boys with high school maturity think the car they drive makes them a man.

      I really don't care who likes what car better, but regardless of whether you think a diesel Jetta is a MAN's car (which is ridiculous, in my opinion) or not is no reason to make stuff up, like saying it "routinely" gets 50 MPG on the highway or gets better efficiency than the Prius.

    24. 07-30-2011 02:53 AM #24
      CAFE =/= EPA MPG

      Just wanted to get that out there...

      Quote Originally Posted by Swallow Doretti View Post
      And VW is whining because they're nowhere near meeting the new standards. They may have diesels to help them meet the standards, but they can't figure out how to get those kinds of EPA numbers out of their gas models like, well, every other major automaker selling in the US, and they need to do so in order to be compliant. They're hoping that those other automakers will be forced to to rely more on diesels to meet the standards, but the reality is that competitors like GM, Toyota and Hyundai have plenty of other tricks up their sleeves than just that to meet the standards, and VW has yet to do it.
      Bingo. As VW appears to be on the road of becoming a volume player (again) in the US, its sales are going to shift higher and higher in favor of gasoline models - time to start working on better fuel efficiency from those engines; or not, and just pay fines (which VWoA has already done on a few occasions in recent years if I am not mistaken) - its German parent has deep pockets from what I hear.

      Quote Originally Posted by C4 A6 View Post
      Does this mean no more NSX replacement?
      Not necessarily. As CAFE is sales weighted, a low volume car like the NSX would not affect Honda's CAFE that much.

      Whether or not Honda has the balls to continue with the project is an entirely different story.

    25. 07-30-2011 03:12 AM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      I'll preface this by saying I'm a huge fan of the TDI. My parents are buying a new car and I'm pushing them towards a TDI, hard. However...



      No, it doesn't.



      No, they don't.
      mine consistently hit 50mpg

      nothing like racking up 40k miles then flipping the car for what you paid for it


      been wanting to get another one but i don't drive that much anymore
      Boiler Up!

      Make it three yards mother****er and we'll have an automobile race

    26. 07-30-2011 03:16 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      Barely breaking 50 MPG is not "routinely returning low 50s." And you won't get 50 MPG on the highway driving normally in a TDI.
      i did

      maybe have a lighter more disciplined foot?
      Boiler Up!

      Make it three yards mother****er and we'll have an automobile race

    27. Member Harold's Avatar
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      07-30-2011 03:28 AM #27
      The govt could use another strategy and hike the gas tax. Consumers would push for more fuel efficiency and the manufacturers who meet the challenge would be rewarded with more sales.
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    28. 07-30-2011 04:19 AM #28
      VW does have a point. Not giving light trucks the same requirements does two things:

      1) Shifts the burden to non-business customers.
      2) Shifts the burden to mostly import manufacturers.

      Besides, light trucks should have even HIGHER requirements as they are both used a lot in business and industry and have much lower requirements than passenger cars.

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      07-30-2011 06:33 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
      The govt could use another strategy and hike the gas tax. Consumers would push for more fuel efficiency and the manufacturers who meet the challenge would be rewarded with more sales.

      And where does this extra money collected by the government go?

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      07-30-2011 08:07 AM #30
      Looks like Ford is trying to improve.....

      Ford Super Duty Plug-ins

    31. 07-30-2011 11:27 AM #31
      Historically, light trucks have always had smaller increases in standards than passenger cars; perhaps VWoA may have felt optimistic the trend would somehow reverse?? Also, CAFE for passenger cars have not changed at all from the 1990MY to 2010MY, at 27.5MPG.

      Bottom line, get more fuel efficient or pay fines. Simple as that. VW isn't the only automaker heavy on passenger car line or sales.

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      07-30-2011 11:55 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by joe97 View Post
      CAFE =/= EPA MPG

      Just wanted to get that out there...
      Exactly. All this bickering is stupid since you are arguing over the wrong stuff. CAFE is average across the board. CAFE was the reason the Geo Metro existed. GM needed a fuel efficient car to balance off the gas guzzling pick ups and SUVs. VW is bitching because they are above the CAFE currently and now everyone else will be forced to catch up thus killing their lead. Increased standards have been far overdo and this is great that they are doing it. The CAFE standards went up during the fuel crisis in the 70s and then were pushed back down after it ended. If they were left alone, our situation would be different.

      You cannot raise the gas tax because that will directly hit the consumer and that spells death for reelection chances. You can however force the manufacturer to up the overall numbers through legislation and still get reelected. People remember things like TARP and will not stand by and listen to whining from an industry that was saved by tax payer money. Not a political statement but one based off of observation. People still avoid certain banks. Besides, you do not want to put it on the consumer to drive change when it comes to cars. The consumer whines about gas prices but still drives their SUV or they sell their SUV and buy a sipper when the prices go up but run back to them when the prices dip. It needs to be a top down approach and not a bottom up. We all want better mpg in all the offerings but no one is willing to forcefully demand it.

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      07-30-2011 12:15 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by Swallow Doretti View Post
      . They may have diesels to help them meet the standards, but they can't figure out how to get those kinds of EPA numbers out of their gas models like, well, every other major automaker selling in the US, and they need to do so in order to be compliant.
      thats not even close to true. the 2.0T routinly gets 30-32 MPG, other motors of similar power/class often fail to even crack 25 mpg. im talk of course of the 2.5 boxer, and the 2.3 DISI ....
      Quote Originally Posted by kwik!gti
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    34. 07-30-2011 12:19 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by morecarsthanbrains View Post
      thus killing their lead.
      I don't think VW is leading in CAFE but it has been above standards for a few years now. I believe the last model year VW had to pay fines was back in 2007.

      For 2011, the projected passenger car CAFE is 30.2 and 24.2 for light trucks. Based on the latest stat, it looks like the following manufacturers may be looking at fines (larger list than previous years mainly due to the first year of spike in passenger cars CAFE since 1990):

      BMW (passenger cars only)
      Chrysler (passenger cars only)
      Daimler (both passenger cars and light trucks)
      Ferrari (passenger cars only)
      GM (light trucks only)
      Jaguar Land Rover (both passenger cars and light trucks)
      Lotus (passenger cars only)
      Maserati (passenger cars only)
      Porsche (both passenger cars and light trucks)
      Spyker (passenger cars only)
      Volvo (both passenger cars and light trucks)
      VPG (passenger cars only)

      And Tesla has a CAFE of 346.8

    35. 07-30-2011 12:38 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      thats not even close to true. the 2.0T routinly gets 30-32 MPG, other motors of similar power/class often fail to even crack 25 mpg. im talk of course of the 2.5 boxer, and the 2.3 DISI ....
      Those engines are largely irrelevant when it comes to CAFE. They're all relatively low-volume cars. Brian's referring to the non-performance gas engines.
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mustang (for now) driver

      Quote Originally Posted by JalopnikMatt View Post
      Yeah, I've bypassed y'all and go straight to r/cars.

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