ZF Gearbox Service DORTMUND!

[EnglishPhaeton]

Hi all,

well I've finally bitten the bullet and booked my V10 (SWB) in for a gearbox "service" at ZF in Dortmund Germany.
I have read many good things about Herr Sagert and his team, and, having spoken to him at great length today I am feeling very confident that my gearbox will return to the silky smooth unit it was when it left Dresden.
Herr Sagert informs me that his team are well versed with the Phaeton, and can turn the car around in about 4 hours.
The cost is €450 including transmission fluid (full change) and all parts used for regular service! The oil alone in the UK is approaching €300, plus parts plus labour!!! Plus these guys really know their stuff.
For the benefit of other owners Herr Sagert (remember this guy is the real article ZF employed senior tech) strongly recommends a transmission oil change every 120,000km or sooner!
I will post a follow up to my visit in due course

Stu

[Prince Ludwig]

Let me know how it goes - I was thinking of doing this after I read this account of the procedure:

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/527361

(I suspect you saw it as well! )

Harry

[EnglishPhaeton]

Let me know how it goes - I was thinking of doing this after I read this account of the procedure:

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/527361

(I suspect you saw it as well! )

Harry

Harry,

indeed I did see the above! The best part though was ringing ZF and speaking (in English) to a guy that really knows his stuff! Hate to think how much the call cost!
I will keep the forum informed of the outcome!

Stu

[Jxander]

Stu:

Great stuff. I think our ZF transmissions are quite robust and would last a VERY long time with that periodic service. I wish we had factory ZF service available in the US. I'd travel abit just to get it done. Thank goodness, I have a new transmission and won't have to worry about fluid exchange and maintenance for many years(knock on wood). However, I feel my transmission would not have needed replacement if that service had been done at about 50k miles.

Jim X

[invisiblewave]

Good grief, what an article! I'd love to change the fluid in mine, but I barely trust the dealers to change the engine oil, nevermind the gearbox.

[Expoman]

That's a really useful post Stu, I am just around the 120,000 km and I can feel that the transmission could be a bit smoother on occasions - I can probably make a bit of a detour to Dortmund later this year so I could well be your first referral customer.

All best,
Steven

[EnglishPhaeton]

That's a really useful post Stu, I am just around the 120,000 km and I can feel that the transmission could be a bit smoother on occasions - I can probably make a bit of a detour to Dortmund later this year so I could well be your first referral customer.

All best,
Steven

Hi Steven,

I'm going September 29th (their next available date)!!!!

Stu

[Zaphh]

Makes me want to go there too...

The thing is that I have 140000 km and plan to sell my car in 2013 to buy another one, by which time the car should be approximately 200 000km...

So the big question is: should I keep going on like this until 2013 and save the return trip (900km) and money hoping that nothing bad will happen before 200 000km, or should I bite the bullet and go now...

My transmission runs fine even though once in a while, at very low speeds, I have a small clunk going from 3rd to 2nd, or 2nd to 1st...

P.

[EnglishPhaeton]

Makes me want to go there too...


My transmission runs fine even though once in a while, at very low speeds, I have a small clunk going from 3rd to 2nd, or 2nd to 1st...

P.

Pierre,

I have the same problem, Herr Sagert confirmed the issue and the cure! I have approx 170,000km on the clock.

Stu

[PanEuropean]

I'd love to change the fluid in mine...

The process for changing the fluid in the 5 speed transmission used in the W12 Phaeton is explained (complete with illustrations) at this post: Changing Transmission Fluid, Checking Transmission Fluid Level (illustrated how-to guide). The process for changing the fluid in the 6 speed transmission used in the V8 Phaetons is similar.

If your VW dealer is not familiar with changing the transmission fluid in the Phaeton - a reasonable assumption, considering that there are relatively few Phaetons in North America and no requirement (other than on the W12) for changing the fluid, it might be helpful if you printed out this thread and provided it to the service writer when you bring the car in for service.

The specification (the mileage interval) for changing the fluid in the W12 powered Phaeton is provided (in PDF format) on post #28 of the same thread.

Michael

[Jxander]

If your VW dealer is not familiar with changing the transmission fluid in the Phaeton - a reasonable assumption, considering that there are relatively few Phaetons in North America and no requirement (other than on the W12) for changing the fluid, it might be helpful if you printed out this thread and provided it to the service writer when you bring the car in for service.

Michael

Michael:

It appears from the photos that the service they perform at the ZF service center is more than a fluid/filter change. The photos suggest that they remove and "rebuild" the mechatronic unit. This must be done in a very clean environment by someone experienced in the task. That means the electronics and hydraulic control system is essentially renewed. VW techs will install a new or factory rebuilt mechatronic unit but must feel that their techs are not sufficiently trained to dig into the ZF 5 and 6 speed transmission internals. Thus, if there is a "serious" problem VW generally opts to replace the whole unit.

If it is merely a fluid and filter change, someone please correct me.

Jim X

[Victor R]

Michael,

Thank you very much for referencing the prior thread and for specifically pointing out the service interval. I would have never guessed that the factory recommendation is to change the transmission fluid every 20,000 miles. This is invaluable information for all of us that are looking to keep our cars for many years.

I know for a fact that my grey one has not had this done over the roughly 20,000 miles I have put on it since I got it. The prior owner had had the 80,000 mile service performed, so I do not have details of what was done. I had it in for 100,000 mile service and they did not do this then. (Both the prior owner and I have been religious about dealer-recommended service.)

I will be discussing this with my service advisor.

Victor

[PanEuropean]

It appears from the photos that the service they perform at the ZF service center is more than a fluid/filter change...

Hi Jim:

Yes, absolutely, you are correct.

The only problem is that it is a real pain for us to transport our North American Phaetons to Dortmund - even with my 'top tier' airline status and zillions of frequent flyer points, no airline will allow me to check the thing as baggage, and the LWB Phaetons we have in North America are too long to fit into the little Twin Otter aircraft that I periodically ferry around the world.

So, for those of us who are in North America, about the only service option we have is to change the fluid. This is obligatory (on a periodic basis) for the W12 transmission, and not obligatory for the V8.

Way, way back in about 2006, I had my doubts about the 'good for the lifetime of the car' claim made for the W12 fluid, and paid to have it changed myself (hence the original post). It cost me about $350 in parts to get this done - there was no labour charge because I did all the work myself at my dealership (they always ask me if I want them to do the work, or if I would prefer to do it myself - if I elect to do it myself, they give me a work bay, toolbox, and a shop coat).

A few years later - surprise, surprise - out comes the technical bulletin telling W12 owners to change the stuff every 20,000 miles (30,000 km). My first change was done at about 30,000 km, so, I asked the staff at the dealership to change it again at 60,000 km - since they now knew how to do it (they watched me the first time around), the dealership staff did the work the second time around. I haven't yet reached 90,000 km - at my present rate of driving the car about 1,500 km a year (and flying 150,000 miles a year), that won't happen for a long time.

Michael

[Appaz]

I have 165k km on mine V10.
Started to notice litlle waving on tahometer (or is this called a rev meter?), specially on slow accelerations with cold engine, about 20k km ago.
It got worse little by little.
I changed gearbox fluid two days ago and I am a happy man now.
Revs are stable, gear changes up and down got very smooth.

A usual VW dealer did not have any problems to do this job.
They billed me 300USD.

[Expoman]

Hi Steven,

I'm going September 29th (their next available date)!!!!

Stu

Have a good time Stu, very much look forward to hearing your account of the experience and your first Autobahn drive post-procedure!

All best,
Steven

[EnglishPhaeton]

Michael:

It appears from the photos that the service they perform at the ZF service center is more than a fluid/filter change. The photos suggest that they remove and "rebuild" the mechatronic unit. This must be done in a very clean environment by someone experienced in the task. That means the electronics and hydraulic control system is essentially renewed. VW techs will install a new or factory rebuilt mechatronic unit but must feel that their techs are not sufficiently trained to dig into the ZF 5 and 6 speed transmission internals. Thus, if there is a "serious" problem VW generally opts to replace the whole unit.

If it is merely a fluid and filter change, someone please correct me.

Jim X

Hi Jim,

you are quite correct! The entire Mechatronic unit is removed, cleaned and reassembled with many replacement parts. Herr Sagert also pointed out that some components within the Mechatronic unit have been the subject of upgrades over the years and these are replaced as a matter of course.
An added bonus is they throw in an oil change for the diffs too!!!!
Can't wait!

Stu

[dlouie]

Stu,
Will you be able to document the Phaeton procedure like the BMW article? I too wish they had this kind of service too. Unfortunately I have a different issue and may need to have my transmission replaced.
Damon

[EnglishPhaeton]

Stu,
Will you be able to document the Phaeton procedure like the BMW article? I too wish they had this kind of service too. Unfortunately I have a different issue and may need to have my transmission replaced.
Damon

Damon,

assuming Herr Sagert is okay I will endeavour to get as many pics as possible! I will also try and get as much info on the gearbox as I can. Remember though that I have the V10 (ZF 6HP32A) whereas (I think) you in the States have the ZF 5HP19A. Feel free to correct the last statement. Some differences will no doubt come to light!
If I am being honest my real reason for a trek across Europe is cost! I cannot buy the correct ZF fluid (Lifeguard 6) in the UK for price of a "complete service and oil change" by ZF themselves in Germany!

Stu

[W12mike]

From what I have gathered, all Phaeton autos have the ZF 6HPXXX transmission, except the W12s, where the 5HPxxx is fitted.

The "5" and "6" in the ZF designation stands for the number of gear ratios.

[EnglishPhaeton]

From what I have gathered, all Phaeton autos have the ZF 6HPXXX transmission, except the W12s, where the 5HPxxx is fitted.

The "5" and "6" in the ZF designation stands for the number of gear ratios.

Hi,

V6's have 6HP26A V10's have 6HP32A difference being torque handling (apparently)

Stu

[dlouie]

Here in NA, the V8's all have the ZF 6HP26A. Even though you have a different transmission, I'm just fascinated by photo documentaries. My transmission developed a leak at the center differential. It's not a leak from the tail shaft seal that appears to be common. Instead, it leaks from the breather port on the center differential housing. I think I know the cause but need to verify it. I will start a new thread on the topic when I get it sorted out because I think the. issue undocumented on this forum. Anyone ever smell burning oil from the exhaust pipes that's not cause d by a tail shaft seal? Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Damon.

[Expoman]

Damon,

assuming Herr Sagert is okay I will endeavour to get as many pics as possible! I will also try and get as much info on the gearbox as I can. Remember though that I have the V10 (ZF 6HP32A) whereas (I think) you in the States have the ZF 5HP19A. Feel free to correct the last statement. Some differences will no doubt come to light!
If I am being honest my real reason for a trek across Europe is cost! I cannot buy the correct ZF fluid (Lifeguard 6) in the UK for price of a "complete service and oil change" by ZF themselves in Germany!

Stu

Spoken (written!) like a true Yorkie! Stu, you had me fooled for a while......

All best,
Steven
(Sheffield lad, sent south as a missionary at the age of 9)

[EnglishPhaeton]

Spoken (written!) like a true Yorkie! Stu, you had me fooled for a while......

All best,
Steven
(Sheffield lad, sent south as a missionary at the age of 9)

Steven,

I was in Sheff last week, boy has it changed in the last 5 or so years! I wish I could say it was all for the good, but, alas as with so many other "urban improvements" it falls very short!I was in Toulouse the day the place exploded and the aftermath resembled Sheffield today!
Another case of the UK failing to invest in its core industries, now all the names are Finnish, Russian and Indian. Sad

Stu

[PanEuropean]

Hello All:

Below are photos of transmission data plates from North American Phaetons. Both cars are MY 2004. Hope this helps with transmission model identification.

Michael

NAR V8 Transmission


NAR W12 Transmission

[Expoman]

Steven,

I was in Sheff last week, boy has it changed in the last 5 or so years! I wish I could say it was all for the good, but, alas as with so many other "urban improvements" it falls very short!I was in Toulouse the day the place exploded and the aftermath resembled Sheffield today!
Another case of the UK failing to invest in its core industries, now all the names are Finnish, Russian and Indian. Sad

Stu

Stu,

Most of Sheffield has been demolished since I lived there - I could almost take it personally!

The last district I lived in has now become a "drug hole" and my last living relative there (that I knew of) was killed in a car accident last year when a car she was driving was hit by one of two cars having a race on a local by-pass. As you might imagine, I have no plans to return any time soon!

[EnglishPhaeton]

Hi all,

the first step of the gearbox service is under way - 750 miles to Dortmund. Got an email from Herr Sagert confirming that they are expecting me at 8.00am sharpeek:! (Thursday 29th Sept).
So camera and sandwiches in hand its off to the Fatherland!
All being well they will put her back together nicely so that I can report!

Stu

[Prince Ludwig]

750 miles to Dortmund

In a Phaeton? Pah!

[JockMacMad]

750 miles to Dortmund

I bet the oil just gets to 90 degrees as you arrive

[Piers1989]

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the service as I'll try and convince my dad to get our W12 gearbox serviced if the service is good and its a good price

Would be nice to get some autobahn action too ^^

[EnglishPhaeton]

Hi all,

well I've got as far as Brugges after a great day with the very nice folks at ZF Dortmund! First impressions are.... WOW! Over time you forget just how good something used to be, well this has served as a BIG reminder!!
More when I get back as I hate typing on a phone!

Stu

[Expoman]

Hi Stu,

Glad to hear it went well, looking forward to reading the in-depth report upon your return.

Cheers,
Steven

[EnglishPhaeton]

Hi all,

just a quick (prior to full) update for those sending PM's.

Journey, easy no fuss and ZF facility very easy to find (opposite Dortmund Airport).
Service, wonderful, how it should be! Copious amounts of free (QUALITY) coffee, very friendly people that did everything they could to accommodate "foreign" clients! Prompt and uber efficient!
Results, everything and more than I expected! Gear changes are back to being imperceptible. No jolt when stopping at junctions, just nice smoooooth changes. Quieter too.
Would I do it again? Who wouldn't, it really is a no-brainer.

I will post the pics and more in depth info over the weekend.

Stu

[EnglishPhaeton]

Hi,

here's a summary of the trip, the service and the outcome.

Left sunny Harrogate early on Wednesday. I made my way down to Ashford in Kent to collect a couple of Turbochargers that I had "acquired" (more later)! after an hour or so pottering around the Kent countryside I made my way to Ramsgate, ready for the ferry to Ostend. With hindsight I would have chosen Hull to Zeebrugge, but would not have been able to collect the turbo's.
The ferry was uneventful, beautiful calm evening cruise across the English Channel, managed an hour or so of something akin to sleep!
I arrived in Ostend around 23.30 local time, so didn't see much of the place. Straight onto the Motorway network heading for Eindhoven. This is the first time in twenty years that I have driven in Belgium and, I am sad to report, the condition of their roads is far worse even that the UK's! The constant pitter patter clunk thud of the patchwork surface certainly kept me fully awake!
As I was in no hurry I set the cruise control at 65mph and sat back in an effort not to induce stress! (This paid handsome dividends with the trip computer showing an average of 42.6 mpg on arrival in Dortmund). Belgium passed without incident, despite some quite thick fog in places.
Immediately you arrive in the Netherlands the road quality improves drastically. Almost as smooth as a French peage! Soon I was passing familiar places having visited Holland on many occasions.
As night gave way to the first signs of dawn I was parking outside of the ZF service facility in Dortmund (well, near Dortmund, it sort of overlooks the Dortmund Airport (with lots of Boeing's painted in a very fetching shade of pink)!
I was expected at 08.30, but as I could see plenty of comings and goings by 07.30 I thought what the hell, I needed a coffee! I was greeted and made to feel very welcome by the director of the facility, and with coffee in hand we proceeded to check on the Phaeton. As I had arrived at 04.00 the car had a while to cool down, albeit not sufficiently, so Herr Jaeger (ZF tech) got the car into the facility, up on a ramp, oil pan off and fans directed at the offending gearbox at warp speed! He pointed out that by the time my contact (Herr Sagert arrived (08.30) the 'box should be cool enough to get to work on.
At exactly 08.30 Herr Sagert arrived, ensuring that I had enough (VERY GOOD) coffee, he talked me through the process, asked about specific problems, and discussed the replacement gearbox oil cooler that had become a necessity after the initial appointment had been made!
Indeed this cooler proved very stubborn to remove. Bascally it had become that hot that it had warped and melted a weld! Take note all V10 drivers, drop the rear cover under the gearbox and thoroughly clean this radiator before it fails!
By 09.45 the mechatronic unit was on the bench (I have photos but am a bit embarrassed at how bad they are)!!!! Boy was this a filthy mess. The fluid had done a wonderful job of protecting the 'box considering the state it was in. It really did resemble treacle. There was an unusual smell too, not of burning just nasty, Herr Sagert checked everything thoroughly though and concluded that the 'box had survived bit the fluid most certainly had not!
It took around an hour for the mechatronic unit to be stripped cleaned and new upgraded parts to be fitted. It really was amazing seeing these guys strip something that appears so complex and reassemble it almost without even paying attention!
A few minutes of playing around with it hooked to a computer ( I cannot tell you what was happening as I lost the description in translation)! and it was ready to go back in the car. By this time as much oil as was going to come out had, the 'box was given a quick clean down and back in went the brains!
After torqueing the pan and checking the rear axle we were ready for another coffee!
Time for a test drive! This is where things get interesting, firstly when the Phaeton was delivered to the front of the building we amassed a small crowd, drivers of 7 and 8 series BMW's, Mercedes, Audi's etc. Herr Sagert didn't fancy driving around Dortmund in a RHD Phaeton. This was left to yours truly, and I enjoyed it immensely!
First thing to note was a lack of transmission whine, just the low growl that the V10 does very well. Initial pick up seemed improved, the programmed slip between gears was much reduced, changes had become virtually imperceptible, needing a check on the tachometer for reassurance. Similarly down shifts were more controlled, and changing down in tiptronic mode was hugely improved.
For me though, the biggest improvement was in ridding the car of the small but noticeable jolt when coming to a halt. That last change from 2nd to 1st had become quite annoying, no longer!
Back to the workshop and back on the ramp, a final check for leaks and we get the all clear, the gearbox cover is replaced and an invoice created.
The downside..... ZF only accept CASH from non German clients, so beware, you will need the pre agreed amount in Euros! Fortunately there is an ATM over the road at the airport!
The journey back was as uneventful as the outward one, with one exception. I find it unnerving to be overtaken at speeds in excess of 120 mph by a funeral procession!!!! Respect
If anyone wants/needs further info don't hesitate to PM me. I am also happy to email the few pics that I took.

Stu

[WillemBal]

This is the first time in twenty years that I have driven in Belgium and, I am sad to report, the condition of their roads is far worse even that the UK's! The constant pitter patter clunk thud of the patchwork surface certainly kept me fully awake!

Stu,
And the Belgian highway administration had done so much to improve this situation! Remember, to better see the potholes in the dark, they even equipped every single section highway with massive illumination!

Another question about the price of € 450. Does this include the VAT (Mehrwertsteuer or Mwst. in German)? When one has a company (with VAT number), it is possible to pay the bill excluding VAT. Savings about 80 to 90 Euro.

For me, Dortmund is in fact quite nearby, just 2 hours driving. So this opportunity would be very interesting for me. Did herr Sagert tell anything about whether it would be interesting for the 5-shift transmission to have this done also? (after 150000 km).
There is something else you wrote which puzzles me a bit. You wrote that he recommends to change transmission fluid every 120000 km. That is way more than what I read in various posts about transmission change intervals for various transmission types and engines. Can you give a bit more clarification on this? Thanks in advance,

Willem

[EnglishPhaeton]

Hi Willem,

I had to pay VAT the total was €508.68, but I am not complaining, after all ZF carried out more work than they originally quoted for but did not charge extra.
With regards to changing fluid, I cannot say whether the figure quoted was the "official" ZF line or based on Herr Sagerts personal experiences. I did not seek to question him further as he seemed very confident in his experiences and opinions. As he pointed out though, oil is still cheaper than gearboxes!
I also get the impression that he (Herr Sagert) still believes that the W12 SHOULD have been fitted with the bigger stronger gearbox.
On a bright note for all though, he reckons the transmissions are good for 500k miles if correctly maintained, he is adamant they will outlive the engines! He says that one German manufacturer constantly under specifies gearboxes hence the reason his workshop is always full of that particular marques products! On my visit however there were a wide range of vehicles, including a Mercedes Experimental bus (looked fabulous)

Stu