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    Thread: BFI - Clean Catch Crankcase Oil Separator - for 2.0T TSI!

    1. 08-04-2011 05:25 PM #1



      Black Forest Industries is proud to announce the release of our newest product line:

      The Clean Catch Crankcase Oil Separator, the most advanced, most functional and best looking option to remove excess oil vapor from your PCV/Intake tract.

      One of the biggest concerns of the direct injection engine design - is what to do with crankcase vapor. As with all emissions compliant vehicles, the PCV gasses must be recirculated back into the intake tract. The problem with direct injection is that those latent oil vapor laden gasses then help with the process of carbon deposition on the intake valves. For many who have experienced this, you will be familiar with valves that look like this:



      Help to limit those deposits by removing as much of the oil vapor from the PCV system as possible with one of our Clean Catch catch cans!

      For the 2.0T TSI engine ('09+):


      Click the picture for pricing and info!

      Each TSI Clean Catch catch can utilizes our new VAGPORT PCV connection system and comes with pre-crimped #10 hoses, as well as all fittings brackets and hardware for installation in minutes! Each Clean Catch TSI catch can is designed to fit under the factory air cover and utilizes the same type of quick release connector used by Audi Sport and Team Joest on the Audi Le Mans prototype cars. *At this time we do not have a version that is compatible with the stock "noise" pipe*



    2. 08-04-2011 06:18 PM #2
      Any chance of getting some pictures to go along with the instructions. Specifically the part where we need the exacto knife.

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      08-04-2011 07:18 PM #3
      How's about pictures of a TSI engine and the catch can to match it.

    4. 08-05-2011 11:08 AM #4
      Ok as for specific pictures of where you need to trim for the clamp - these are pics of a pcv assembly off the car just for reference:








      As for pictures of the completed kit on a TSI - our test car (tiguan) had some pre-production pieces on it, so I haven't gotten final pics yet - but we should have that sorted out on Monday - I will update the thread with the installed pics.

    5. Member ViRtUaLheretic's Avatar
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      08-05-2011 11:58 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by black forest ind View Post
      Each TSI Clean Catch catch can utilizes our new VAGPORT PCV connection system and comes with pre-crimped #10 hoses, as well as all fittings brackets and hardware for installation in minutes! Each Clean Catch TSI catch can is designed to fit under the factory air cover and utilizes the same type of quick release connector used by Audi Sport and Team Joest on the Audi Le Mans prototype cars. *At this time we do not have a version that is compatible with the stock "noise" pipe*


      Couple of questions for you.
      Would you guys be willing to sell the PCV connectors by themselves? Id like to eliminate the stock tube that comes out from the PCV itself, that way I dont have to run an adapter to go to my braided lines.

      Also what type of braided lines are you using? Some sort of braided nylon lines? Im just curious to see what you guys ended up using as Im sure you did your research for this kit.

      Are you guys willing to sell custom lengths of this hose as well?
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      08-05-2011 12:42 PM #6
      The catch can looks good! Fit and finish look better than some of the current options, can't wait to see the installed shots. How does this CC work for guys that have existing boost taps? I'm using a 42DD's right now.

    7. 08-05-2011 05:56 PM #7
      Virtual

      I'm not quite sure I'm following you about removing the stock tube.. Our system does what you are talking about - It's probably not clear from the pictures but the connectors adapt from the stock pcv outlet to a #10 AN fitting.

      The lines are a Parker braided nylon hose - a preferable setup for an engine bay, basically the same as any braided AN line, but actually more durable and vibration resistant - they are slightly pricier than braided AN hose, but better quality.

      Dustin:

      We use the 42 dd boost tap/blockoff, we just anodize it black. So you can keep yours or switch to a new one with the kit.


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      08-08-2011 05:06 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by black forest ind View Post
      Virtual

      I'm not quite sure I'm following you about removing the stock tube.. Our system does what you are talking about - It's probably not clear from the pictures but the connectors adapt from the stock pcv outlet to a #10 AN fitting.

      The lines are a Parker braided nylon hose - a preferable setup for an engine bay, basically the same as any braided AN line, but actually more durable and vibration resistant - they are slightly pricier than braided AN hose, but better quality.
      Sorry, I am bad with terminology sometimes.
      The part I am referring to is the PCV hose in the right side of this picture:

      Quote Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post

      Also, what is the adapter you are using to fit inside of the PCV? Its obviously a -10 fitting/ ?

      Thanks for the response
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    9. 08-08-2011 10:18 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post
      Should be arriving tomorrow, so just want to be doubly sure, but I am supposed to just shave the part you marked red right? Nothing after that?

    10. 08-09-2011 03:34 PM #11
      Just got done installing the catch can, and taking a quick drive.

      Was a lot easier than it seemed. Hardest part was taking off the stage 3 MAF housing, and getting the silver clips on.

      The front pcv clip is super snug. Doesn't rotate at all. The back one went on a lot easier. It spins, but doesn't move forward/backward at all.

      This sound alright?

      What do you guys suggest for emptying the can? Taking the top off and poring it out, or taking the bottom plug out and dump it in a can or something?

      Quality is excellent. Makes all the other catch cans look like garbage.

      Don't really care if it helps with the valves or not. If it can help keep my tubing clear of oil, and help with combustion like BSH suggested that is more than enough for me (in fact if the combustion thing is true I would rather have that than the cleaner valves).

      Here is a crappy pic I snapped.



      Good job BFI. Really happy with it++
      Last edited by HalvieCuw; 08-09-2011 at 06:46 PM.

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      08-09-2011 10:06 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by HalvieCuw View Post

      Here is a crappy pic I snapped.


      Catch can looks nice but, that is one seriously overfilled coolant reservoir tank. Might want to take a turkey baster and pull a little bit out.

    12. 08-09-2011 11:01 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by 90crvtec View Post
      Catch can looks nice but, that is one seriously overfilled coolant reservoir tank. Might want to take a turkey baster and pull a little bit out.
      Yeah noticed that the other day. Wonder why my shop added so much...Took some out already. Thanks for the headsup.

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      08-10-2011 12:45 AM #14
      Was also curious with the engine bay picture, what kind of oil filter is that? I don't think I've seen a white filter for the TSI?

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      08-10-2011 02:07 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by 90crvtec View Post
      Was also curious with the engine bay picture, what kind of oil filter is that? I don't think I've seen a white filter for the TSI?
      Looks like an aftermarket Purolator L35895.
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      08-10-2011 03:35 PM #16
      500 bucks for a can, a few hoses, and cutting your stock equipment, not to mention there is still no evidence these solve the carbon issues. Wow.

    16. 08-10-2011 04:20 PM #17
      Ok, Its been a while, but we had some delays with our local install (typical )

      Halvie already beat me to it, but here are some more installed pictures of the can with and without the engine cover:




      I am working on updating the install instructions with some pictures to help make things more clear for those installing cans.

      Virtual:

      Here are the fittings:




      We can sell the pieces of the kit separately just shoot me an email to sales@blackforestindustries.com.

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      08-10-2011 11:43 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post

      Virtual:

      Here are the fittings:




      We can sell the pieces of the kit separately just shoot me an email to sales@blackforestindustries.com.
      e-mail sent, Thanks!
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      08-11-2011 01:11 PM #19
      someone spent FIVE HUNDRED on this thing??? Oh noes........
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      08-11-2011 02:57 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by placenta View Post
      someone spent FIVE HUNDRED on this thing??? Oh noes........
      No worries! He spent a lot more on other stuff!
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      08-12-2011 11:27 PM #21
      I'm thoroughly confused.
      If there are only 2 lines to this kit, then there should be a breather filter on the can. Hence a VTA can.
      If there's no breather filter, then there should be a third line that vents the crankcase pressure back to the intake...
      Seems like NO crankcase pressure is actually being relieved here.

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      08-13-2011 09:29 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by dsm1983 View Post
      I'm thoroughly confused.
      If there are only 2 lines to this kit, then there should be a breather filter on the can. Hence a VTA can.
      If there's no breather filter, then there should be a third line that vents the crankcase pressure back to the intake...
      Seems like NO crankcase pressure is actually being relieved here.
      Take another look at the pictures that Halvie posted. The rear catch can line actually goes back to the intake charge pipe. You can also see a small rubber cap on the back of the rear PCV valve. This setup WILL relieve crank case pressure.

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      08-13-2011 07:38 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by 90crvtec View Post
      Take another look at the pictures that Halvie posted. The rear catch can line actually goes back to the intake charge pipe. You can also see a small rubber cap on the back of the rear PCV valve. This setup WILL relieve crank case pressure.
      ahhh, yes! i see that now. thank you!
      but that leads to another concern about the rear pcv line. why is it just plugged? there's got to be a legitimate reason VW designed it that way.
      BFI, can you comment on this decision in regards to the kit's design? thanks in advance.

    23. 08-15-2011 10:50 PM #24
      Sorry about the lack of posts about this from me - I have been on vacation and away from a computer the last week or so..

      Yes, we realize that the can is on the top end of the price scale - it is expensive. But it is also precision machined, hand assembled and comprised of the finest quality compnonents. The connectors comprise almost 1/3 of the total cost of the can, plus the lines themselves are generally sold by the inch and take quite some time to cut, assemble and crimp. It is, for all intents and purposes, race material ready for the track.

      As far as the PCV having two exits - it is only necessary for the engine to have 1 pcv routing system, so as for VWs intentions I can only speculate, but I believe it is an issue with velocity and vaccum pressure at idle, the only time the system uses the front side of the pcv valve structure (into the intake manifold). Under boost it is closed and uses the rear pcv exit (the routing that we essentially retain). With the extended length of the can and its associated lines, the velocity remains constant at idle despite passing throught the turbo.

    24. Member EngTech1's Avatar
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      08-15-2011 11:20 PM #25
      Intrested : What is the VAGPORT PCV - Made From ( Material's )
      Hose = ( Material's )



      Would It be less without the - CARB or the EuroVI - Sticker ?

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      08-15-2011 11:52 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by 90crvtec View Post
      Take another look at the pictures that Halvie posted. The rear catch can line actually goes back to the intake charge pipe. You can also see a small rubber cap on the back of the rear PCV valve. This setup WILL relieve crank case pressure.
      So You Mean - Cough - that some High Tech German Engine - Eng. Designed This - Newly
      Designed Motor - Knowing that Modern Fuel's have poor Lube - all the While Using 1600-1800 PSI of Pressure in the Fuel Line - Driving the system with a Cam Follower - Lubed with Fuel - LOL
      When VW had a - Hot Full Oil Vapor Hot Issue steering Them All In the Face from the
      FSI Motor ? ( Read that Twice ) !

      This Oil Vapor could have Been Injected Up Stream - Into the ( Fuel Supply System )
      Just before the Pressure Increased to Lube the Cam Drive Device & Mix Into the Fuel to Be Injected
      for Burning - NOT - Blown into the Intake system where the Air is Cooling It down to be
      Turned Into a Sludge Coating - WTF !

      Do I pretty Much Have that Basically Right - do We need to Fine Tune This !
      Last edited by EngTech1; 08-15-2011 at 11:55 PM.
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      08-16-2011 09:30 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post
      Sorry about the lack of posts about this from me - I have been on vacation and away from a computer the last week or so..

      Yes, we realize that the can is on the top end of the price scale - it is expensive. But it is also precision machined, hand assembled and comprised of the finest quality compnonents. The connectors comprise almost 1/3 of the total cost of the can, plus the lines themselves are generally sold by the inch and take quite some time to cut, assemble and crimp. It is, for all intents and purposes, race material ready for the track.

      As far as the PCV having two exits - it is only necessary for the engine to have 1 pcv routing system, so as for VWs intentions I can only speculate, but I believe it is an issue with velocity and vaccum pressure at idle, the only time the system uses the front side of the pcv valve structure (into the intake manifold). Under boost it is closed and uses the rear pcv exit (the routing that we essentially retain). With the extended length of the can and its associated lines, the velocity remains constant at idle despite passing throught the turbo.
      The vast majority of time, there is vacum in the intake manifold, and the FRONT PCV path is being used. The front path is NOT just used when the car is idling !

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      08-17-2011 12:26 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by EngTech1 View Post
      So You Mean - Cough - that some High Tech German Engine - Eng. Designed This - Newly
      Designed Motor - Knowing that Modern Fuel's have poor Lube - all the While Using 1600-1800 PSI of Pressure in the Fuel Line - Driving the system with a Cam Follower - Lubed with Fuel - LOL
      When VW had a - Hot Full Oil Vapor Hot Issue steering Them All In the Face from the
      FSI Motor ? ( Read that Twice ) !

      This Oil Vapor could have Been Injected Up Stream - Into the ( Fuel Supply System )
      Just before the Pressure Increased to Lube the Cam Drive Device & Mix Into the Fuel to Be Injected
      for Burning - NOT - Blown into the Intake system where the Air is Cooling It down to be
      Turned Into a Sludge Coating - WTF !

      Do I pretty Much Have that Basically Right - do We need to Fine Tune This !
      I had a really hard time understanding that....are you OK?

      The easiest way to avoid oil vapors getting into the intake manifold would be to get a VTA catch can, or just do your own version of it by plugging the rear PCV port as shown above, and then run a hose to the ground from the front PCV port.

      The front PCV port has a check valve, it lets gas out but won't let gas back in. It has to be this way so that boost pressure from the intake manifold isn't allowed into the crank case through the front PCV valve. This also means that the engine won't suck in unfiltered air from the front PCV valve when used in a VTA setup, but the natural crank case pressure that builds up in the engine will still be allowed to push the check valve open and exit via the hose.

      I went with the hose-to-ground option on my car and I didn't have to drop $300 on a catch can. The whole setup cost me about $8, it took me longer to find a way to plumb the hose down to the ground than it did to disconnect all the OEM PCV stuff. Been like this since I purchased the car, if I keep the car long enough I'll post pics of my intake valves @ 30k miles to see if the VTA PCV is helping with valve deposits.

    28. Member EngTech1's Avatar
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      08-17-2011 06:59 PM #29
      The easiest way to avoid oil vapors getting into the intake manifold would be to get a VTA catch can, or just do your own version of it by plugging the rear PCV port as shown above, and then run a hose to the ground from the front PCV port.

      The front PCV port has a check valve, it lets gas out but won't let gas back in. It has to be this way so that boost pressure from the intake manifold isn't allowed into the crank case through the front PCV valve. This also means that the engine won't suck in unfiltered air from the front PCV valve when used in a VTA setup, but the natural crank case pressure that builds up in the engine will still be allowed to push the check valve open and exit via the hose.

      I went with the hose-to-ground option on my car and I didn't have to drop $300 on a catch can. The whole setup cost me about $8, it took me longer to find a way to plumb the hose down to the ground than it did to disconnect all the OEM PCV stuff. Been like this since I purchased the car, if I keep the car long enough I'll post pics of my intake valves @ 30k miles to see if the VTA PCV is helping with valve deposits.[/QUOTE]


      OK that is a Method -so be It Low Tech & Un-Green ,but at Least You don't have to shell out
      Huge Money for a Broken manifold etc.

      How about this Also : Check Out the 30 Inch Special Red Tube -
      http://www.seafoamsales.com/how-to-u...oam-spray.html
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      08-17-2011 07:13 PM #30
      Know what the Materials are for the VagPort Holder

      SS316 or what ?
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      08-17-2011 08:38 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by EngTech1
      OK that is a Method -so be It Low Tech & Un-Green ,but at Least You don't have to shell out
      Huge Money for a Broken manifold etc.

      How about this Also : Check Out the 30 Inch Special Red Tube -
      http://www.seafoamsales.com/how-to-u...oam-spray.html
      Well, I wouldn't exactly call catch cans or PCV systems as a whole very "high tech". A catch can just uses more hoses and you have to empty it. Emptying a can every few months sounded even more low tech to me.

      One super appealing thing about the VTA hose setup that I use, I can go back to stock in about 30 seconds. Try that with a catch can. Makes dealer visits a piece of cake.

      While we can argue about the un-greeness of the whole process, dumping a bunch of chemicals in my intake tract to try and clean my valves every few months because I left my stock PCV system in place didn't seem too appealing to me either.

      The only way to be completely sure that PCV gases won't get on the valves is to remove it from the system entirely. That's why I went with a VTA setup, plenty of people still go the catch can route and if that works for them, that's cool too.

      As to the seafoam stuff, I haven't been too convinced that it works. For every post stating that a car runs better after seafoam, there's another one showing that even after soaking valves in seafoam for hours, the grime wasn't cleaned off. I'm not convinced that seafoam does anything more than make a bunch of smoke and foul plugs.

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      08-17-2011 09:10 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by 90crvtec View Post
      Well, I wouldn't exactly call catch cans or PCV systems as a whole very "high tech". A catch can just uses more hoses and you have to empty it. Emptying a can every few months sounded even more low tech to me.

      One super appealing thing about the VTA hose setup that I use, I can go back to stock in about 30 seconds. Try that with a catch can. Makes dealer visits a piece of cake.

      While we can argue about the un-greeness of the whole process, dumping a bunch of chemicals in my intake tract to try and clean my valves every few months because I left my stock PCV system in place didn't seem too appealing to me either.

      The only way to be completely sure that PCV gases won't get on the valves is to remove it from the system entirely. That's why I went with a VTA setup, plenty of people still go the catch can route and if that works for them, that's cool too.

      As to the seafoam stuff, I haven't been too convinced that it works. For every post stating that a car runs better after seafoam, there's another one showing that even after soaking valves in seafoam for hours, the grime wasn't cleaned off. I'm not convinced that seafoam does anything more than make a bunch of smoke and foul plugs.


      This may be the REAL answer.... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ghlight=bypass
      Last edited by VWRedux; 08-17-2011 at 09:13 PM.
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    32. 08-18-2011 06:41 PM #33
      To answer a few questions - CC'd, yes you are correct, there are other times that the manifold draws vaccum while not at idle, I was just oversimplifying a bit. The point is that there is no need for a dual routing of the pcv gases, One pcv path works every time, all of the time.

      As far as VTA and dumping PCV gasses into the exaust. Neither is legal, in any state, and in the case of the VTA can, it is smelly and just generally unpleasant. The TSI's without a modified or removed PCV baffle system have a tendency to smoke at idle with a VTA can.

      The connector for the Vagport is a nickel plated aluminum (really anodized with a nickel look). I am not sure of the alloy as I am not the manufacturer of that piece - though all of our Vagport pieces are anodized 6061 hexagonal stock.



      There is one more thing, that is seldom discussed on these forums, but something that comes up frequently amongst those who race these cars - the PCV system has a tendency to PUKE oil out of the block while under high G/ negative G situations on a track.

      APR motorsport is testing our cans (thinking about switching from the Mann and Hummel VTA can), and they have reported loosing as much as 5 quarts of oil in a 30 lap stint at Mid-Ohio. They even go so far as to plumb the drain from the can back into the pan to recycle as much of the oil as possible.

      I am not quite sure where individuals come from when they say that Oil vapor carbon buildup, and oil loss in these cars is not a problem, because the information is out there, and it most certainly is.

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      08-18-2011 09:58 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post
      I am not quite sure where individuals come from when they say that Oil vapor carbon buildup, and oil loss in these cars is not a problem, because the information is out there, and it most certainly is.
      We know this is a problem, but what we're not seeing is any proof that your product does what you advertise it to do! Seeing plastic bottles filled with gooey water is not proof. We trained mechanics know that crank gases are comprised of condensed water vapor and blow-by during the initial warm up phase. After that, these gases have very little water.

      But since your Can traps mostly H2O with traces of oil (DI cars are more efficient thus providing a cleaner ignition and less unburnt fuel vapors like other engines) we must conclude that it's really a water trap during the initial warm-up phase and not more after that.... that after the engine reaches running temperature, it doesn't really function much.

      The evidence is clear that most of the carbon build up is caused by valve guide leakage and not the PCV system. Yes I agree that racing does change the equation, but that's really not who you are marketing to here on Vortex.

      All we ask is for a real side by side test to see if CC's really do reduce intake port carbon build-up on DI engines.

      Thanks
      Last edited by VWRedux; 08-18-2011 at 10:01 PM.
      "There's nothing like a well tuned car on an open road". Paul Newman
      *The New 2011 VW Jetta... At Least You Pay Less To Get Less!*

    34. Member
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      2012 VW GTI 4dr Sunroof/Nav
      08-19-2011 10:54 AM #35
      If valve guide leakage is the main problem, why isn't this being addressed?

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