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    Thread: BFI - Clean Catch Crankcase Oil Separator - for 2.0T TSI!

    1. Member EngTech1's Avatar
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      08-15-2011 11:52 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by 90crvtec View Post
      Take another look at the pictures that Halvie posted. The rear catch can line actually goes back to the intake charge pipe. You can also see a small rubber cap on the back of the rear PCV valve. This setup WILL relieve crank case pressure.
      So You Mean - Cough - that some High Tech German Engine - Eng. Designed This - Newly
      Designed Motor - Knowing that Modern Fuel's have poor Lube - all the While Using 1600-1800 PSI of Pressure in the Fuel Line - Driving the system with a Cam Follower - Lubed with Fuel - LOL
      When VW had a - Hot Full Oil Vapor Hot Issue steering Them All In the Face from the
      FSI Motor ? ( Read that Twice ) !

      This Oil Vapor could have Been Injected Up Stream - Into the ( Fuel Supply System )
      Just before the Pressure Increased to Lube the Cam Drive Device & Mix Into the Fuel to Be Injected
      for Burning - NOT - Blown into the Intake system where the Air is Cooling It down to be
      Turned Into a Sludge Coating - WTF !

      Do I pretty Much Have that Basically Right - do We need to Fine Tune This !
      Last edited by EngTech1; 08-15-2011 at 11:55 PM.
      I'll do My Best to Help You: ** Fall Sale is On ! ** -


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      08-16-2011 09:30 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post
      Sorry about the lack of posts about this from me - I have been on vacation and away from a computer the last week or so..

      Yes, we realize that the can is on the top end of the price scale - it is expensive. But it is also precision machined, hand assembled and comprised of the finest quality compnonents. The connectors comprise almost 1/3 of the total cost of the can, plus the lines themselves are generally sold by the inch and take quite some time to cut, assemble and crimp. It is, for all intents and purposes, race material ready for the track.

      As far as the PCV having two exits - it is only necessary for the engine to have 1 pcv routing system, so as for VWs intentions I can only speculate, but I believe it is an issue with velocity and vaccum pressure at idle, the only time the system uses the front side of the pcv valve structure (into the intake manifold). Under boost it is closed and uses the rear pcv exit (the routing that we essentially retain). With the extended length of the can and its associated lines, the velocity remains constant at idle despite passing throught the turbo.
      The vast majority of time, there is vacum in the intake manifold, and the FRONT PCV path is being used. The front path is NOT just used when the car is idling !

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      08-17-2011 12:26 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by EngTech1 View Post
      So You Mean - Cough - that some High Tech German Engine - Eng. Designed This - Newly
      Designed Motor - Knowing that Modern Fuel's have poor Lube - all the While Using 1600-1800 PSI of Pressure in the Fuel Line - Driving the system with a Cam Follower - Lubed with Fuel - LOL
      When VW had a - Hot Full Oil Vapor Hot Issue steering Them All In the Face from the
      FSI Motor ? ( Read that Twice ) !

      This Oil Vapor could have Been Injected Up Stream - Into the ( Fuel Supply System )
      Just before the Pressure Increased to Lube the Cam Drive Device & Mix Into the Fuel to Be Injected
      for Burning - NOT - Blown into the Intake system where the Air is Cooling It down to be
      Turned Into a Sludge Coating - WTF !

      Do I pretty Much Have that Basically Right - do We need to Fine Tune This !
      I had a really hard time understanding that....are you OK?

      The easiest way to avoid oil vapors getting into the intake manifold would be to get a VTA catch can, or just do your own version of it by plugging the rear PCV port as shown above, and then run a hose to the ground from the front PCV port.

      The front PCV port has a check valve, it lets gas out but won't let gas back in. It has to be this way so that boost pressure from the intake manifold isn't allowed into the crank case through the front PCV valve. This also means that the engine won't suck in unfiltered air from the front PCV valve when used in a VTA setup, but the natural crank case pressure that builds up in the engine will still be allowed to push the check valve open and exit via the hose.

      I went with the hose-to-ground option on my car and I didn't have to drop $300 on a catch can. The whole setup cost me about $8, it took me longer to find a way to plumb the hose down to the ground than it did to disconnect all the OEM PCV stuff. Been like this since I purchased the car, if I keep the car long enough I'll post pics of my intake valves @ 30k miles to see if the VTA PCV is helping with valve deposits.

    4. Member EngTech1's Avatar
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      08-17-2011 06:59 PM #29
      The easiest way to avoid oil vapors getting into the intake manifold would be to get a VTA catch can, or just do your own version of it by plugging the rear PCV port as shown above, and then run a hose to the ground from the front PCV port.

      The front PCV port has a check valve, it lets gas out but won't let gas back in. It has to be this way so that boost pressure from the intake manifold isn't allowed into the crank case through the front PCV valve. This also means that the engine won't suck in unfiltered air from the front PCV valve when used in a VTA setup, but the natural crank case pressure that builds up in the engine will still be allowed to push the check valve open and exit via the hose.

      I went with the hose-to-ground option on my car and I didn't have to drop $300 on a catch can. The whole setup cost me about $8, it took me longer to find a way to plumb the hose down to the ground than it did to disconnect all the OEM PCV stuff. Been like this since I purchased the car, if I keep the car long enough I'll post pics of my intake valves @ 30k miles to see if the VTA PCV is helping with valve deposits.[/QUOTE]


      OK that is a Method -so be It Low Tech & Un-Green ,but at Least You don't have to shell out
      Huge Money for a Broken manifold etc.

      How about this Also : Check Out the 30 Inch Special Red Tube -
      http://www.seafoamsales.com/how-to-u...oam-spray.html
      I'll do My Best to Help You: ** Fall Sale is On ! ** -


    5. Member EngTech1's Avatar
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      08-17-2011 07:13 PM #30
      Know what the Materials are for the VagPort Holder

      SS316 or what ?
      I'll do My Best to Help You: ** Fall Sale is On ! ** -


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      08-17-2011 08:38 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by EngTech1
      OK that is a Method -so be It Low Tech & Un-Green ,but at Least You don't have to shell out
      Huge Money for a Broken manifold etc.

      How about this Also : Check Out the 30 Inch Special Red Tube -
      http://www.seafoamsales.com/how-to-u...oam-spray.html
      Well, I wouldn't exactly call catch cans or PCV systems as a whole very "high tech". A catch can just uses more hoses and you have to empty it. Emptying a can every few months sounded even more low tech to me.

      One super appealing thing about the VTA hose setup that I use, I can go back to stock in about 30 seconds. Try that with a catch can. Makes dealer visits a piece of cake.

      While we can argue about the un-greeness of the whole process, dumping a bunch of chemicals in my intake tract to try and clean my valves every few months because I left my stock PCV system in place didn't seem too appealing to me either.

      The only way to be completely sure that PCV gases won't get on the valves is to remove it from the system entirely. That's why I went with a VTA setup, plenty of people still go the catch can route and if that works for them, that's cool too.

      As to the seafoam stuff, I haven't been too convinced that it works. For every post stating that a car runs better after seafoam, there's another one showing that even after soaking valves in seafoam for hours, the grime wasn't cleaned off. I'm not convinced that seafoam does anything more than make a bunch of smoke and foul plugs.

    7. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      08-17-2011 09:10 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by 90crvtec View Post
      Well, I wouldn't exactly call catch cans or PCV systems as a whole very "high tech". A catch can just uses more hoses and you have to empty it. Emptying a can every few months sounded even more low tech to me.

      One super appealing thing about the VTA hose setup that I use, I can go back to stock in about 30 seconds. Try that with a catch can. Makes dealer visits a piece of cake.

      While we can argue about the un-greeness of the whole process, dumping a bunch of chemicals in my intake tract to try and clean my valves every few months because I left my stock PCV system in place didn't seem too appealing to me either.

      The only way to be completely sure that PCV gases won't get on the valves is to remove it from the system entirely. That's why I went with a VTA setup, plenty of people still go the catch can route and if that works for them, that's cool too.

      As to the seafoam stuff, I haven't been too convinced that it works. For every post stating that a car runs better after seafoam, there's another one showing that even after soaking valves in seafoam for hours, the grime wasn't cleaned off. I'm not convinced that seafoam does anything more than make a bunch of smoke and foul plugs.


      This may be the REAL answer.... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ghlight=bypass
      Last edited by VWRedux; 08-17-2011 at 09:13 PM.
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    8. 08-18-2011 06:41 PM #33
      To answer a few questions - CC'd, yes you are correct, there are other times that the manifold draws vaccum while not at idle, I was just oversimplifying a bit. The point is that there is no need for a dual routing of the pcv gases, One pcv path works every time, all of the time.

      As far as VTA and dumping PCV gasses into the exaust. Neither is legal, in any state, and in the case of the VTA can, it is smelly and just generally unpleasant. The TSI's without a modified or removed PCV baffle system have a tendency to smoke at idle with a VTA can.

      The connector for the Vagport is a nickel plated aluminum (really anodized with a nickel look). I am not sure of the alloy as I am not the manufacturer of that piece - though all of our Vagport pieces are anodized 6061 hexagonal stock.



      There is one more thing, that is seldom discussed on these forums, but something that comes up frequently amongst those who race these cars - the PCV system has a tendency to PUKE oil out of the block while under high G/ negative G situations on a track.

      APR motorsport is testing our cans (thinking about switching from the Mann and Hummel VTA can), and they have reported loosing as much as 5 quarts of oil in a 30 lap stint at Mid-Ohio. They even go so far as to plumb the drain from the can back into the pan to recycle as much of the oil as possible.

      I am not quite sure where individuals come from when they say that Oil vapor carbon buildup, and oil loss in these cars is not a problem, because the information is out there, and it most certainly is.

    9. Member VWRedux's Avatar
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      08-18-2011 09:58 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post
      I am not quite sure where individuals come from when they say that Oil vapor carbon buildup, and oil loss in these cars is not a problem, because the information is out there, and it most certainly is.
      We know this is a problem, but what we're not seeing is any proof that your product does what you advertise it to do! Seeing plastic bottles filled with gooey water is not proof. We trained mechanics know that crank gases are comprised of condensed water vapor and blow-by during the initial warm up phase. After that, these gases have very little water.

      But since your Can traps mostly H2O with traces of oil (DI cars are more efficient thus providing a cleaner ignition and less unburnt fuel vapors like other engines) we must conclude that it's really a water trap during the initial warm-up phase and not more after that.... that after the engine reaches running temperature, it doesn't really function much.

      The evidence is clear that most of the carbon build up is caused by valve guide leakage and not the PCV system. Yes I agree that racing does change the equation, but that's really not who you are marketing to here on Vortex.

      All we ask is for a real side by side test to see if CC's really do reduce intake port carbon build-up on DI engines.

      Thanks
      Last edited by VWRedux; 08-18-2011 at 10:01 PM.
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      08-19-2011 10:54 AM #35
      If valve guide leakage is the main problem, why isn't this being addressed?

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      08-20-2011 01:37 PM #36
      Have unmodified 2009 passat wagen w/2.0 TSI. Based on all threads written...is it a forgone conclusion I will experience rhese valve depost issues? Does purchase and install of your discussed PCV catch device affect VW warranty? (60K powertrain?) I have no known problem at the moment, however would prefer to avoid this issue altogether. Please advise? Thanks.

    12. Member maotsetung's Avatar
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      08-20-2011 01:48 PM #37
      Yes. You will experience the valve deposit issues..unmodded or modded. Even with or without a catch can like the guys have said. Only way to properly clean is through personally or professionally cleaning the valves by removing the intake manifold.
      I'm not really familiar with the powertrain warranty nor cared much, which I should. So someone will most likely chime in on that.


      ---
      - thanks,
      - mao
      Last edited by maotsetung; 08-23-2011 at 01:33 PM.

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      08-21-2011 02:16 PM #38
      Thanks to all for various input and solution paths. I am no expert, however, seems reasonable that with one VW TSI engine type in USA service, there should be one ideal, tried and proven solution for this problem? I read several methods. I'm not trying to be critical, but would welcome the definitive fix to this TSI problem w/o trial and error. Unfortunately, I have limited time in which to impliment VW fixes so "the real fix" would be welcome. Your thoughts? Thank you.

    14. 08-23-2011 05:16 PM #39
      The problem is that ultimately there may not be a single solution to the problem. VW/Audi are addressing this with upstream extra injectors on the next generation of their direct injection engine, but that won't help the existing platform. The best scenario is to mitigate as many of the problems that you can (ie with the installation of a catch can) and to fix the problem areas as they arrive by cleaning the intake tract periodically - either by the use of a fuel injection type service, or a more effective physical cleaning.

      Will a catch can stop all deposits on your valves? No. But the pcv is a significant source of the oil/oil vapor deposits on the intake ports of DI heads. Valve guide leakage is present, but not the main factor. I will put together some videos to demonstrate what I am talking about (having a catch can with a small dipstick port helps to show what the vapor actually looks like while the car is running).

      We did run some unscientific tests using lubro-moly valve clean (ventil sauber) using the head pictured in our original thread posts. We found that when letting the solvent sit for about 15 minutes, it started to soften the depostis and alow them to be easily brushed away. A 24 hour soak actually showed some removal of the deposits without and physical cleaning. Of course this doesn't directly translate to a "seafom" style treatment, but does show that the solvent will loosen the deposits, its just a matter of time (either soaking or multiple back to back treatments). Of course the only sure method is to physically clean the valves by hand, but I wouldn't say that there is no efficacy to inducing the solvent into the intake port periodically, especially if started when deposits are minimal.

    15. Member ViRtUaLheretic's Avatar
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      08-24-2011 05:21 PM #40
      Will the AN fitting and special clasp also work for the rear PCV port?
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      08-25-2011 12:10 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by ViRtUaLheretic View Post
      Will the AN fitting and special clasp also work for the rear PCV port?
      On the TSI engine, no. The rear PCV port is plugged with the kit.
      The can is setup to connect to the front PCV port and route to the connector on the intake.
      The front PCV will always stay open because it will always be under vacuum, eliminating the need for the rear PCV port.
      Even if you attempted to connect the hose to the rear port, it would not fit. The connector on that port is a different design and would not accept the clasp.
      If you have anymore questions, please let us know.

    17. Forum Sponsor pete@blackforest's Avatar
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      08-26-2011 11:19 AM #42

    18. 08-28-2011 06:46 PM #43
      Pete, do you know how much vacuum is created in the intake tube? How does that compare to the vacuum in the intake manifold (which we blank off)?
      Cheers
      Sid

    19. Forum Sponsor pete@blackforest's Avatar
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      08-29-2011 12:10 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by sdhog2002 View Post
      Pete, do you know how much vacuum is created in the intake tube? How does that compare to the vacuum in the intake manifold (which we blank off)?
      Cheers
      Sid
      The vacuum inside the intake tube is less when compared to the intake manifold, however the amount of vacuum is consistent enough to allow the passage of gases through the PCV valve to the Clean Catch can and subsequently back to the intake tract.

    20. 08-30-2011 02:13 AM #45
      Thanks, Pete

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      09-13-2011 10:51 AM #46

    22. Member ViRtUaLheretic's Avatar
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      09-14-2011 11:41 AM #47
      Thanks to BFI I purchased the needed AN fitting and clamp in order to run the front PCV line as a dump tube straight to the ground.

      Sorry for the bad pic, I was in a hurry and didnt notice the pic didnt focus:

      oh and I cleaned up the end of the braided hose so it looks purdy


      losely zip tied the end of the hose to the W.A.L.K.:
      Last edited by ViRtUaLheretic; 09-14-2011 at 11:45 AM.
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      09-14-2011 12:23 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by ViRtUaLheretic View Post
      Thanks to BFI I purchased the needed AN fitting and clamp in order to run the front PCV line as a dump tube straight to the ground.
      Just curious, from the engine bay pic it looks like the rear PCV hose is still connected? Does that also go to the ground or is that still plugged into the intake tube?

    24. Member ViRtUaLheretic's Avatar
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      09-14-2011 01:27 PM #49
      The BFI adapters don't fit in the rear PCV otherwise I would have done the same thing (cept I would have used braided stainless hose for that) as I did for the front pcv
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      09-15-2011 11:45 AM #50

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