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    Thread: After being one of their biggest cheerleaders/apologists for years...

    1. Moderator PsyberVW's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 09:46 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Do other car companies have the same issues with the soft-touch coating that plagues VW/Audi?
      Yes. I've seen some that look like bad sun-burns. It's pandemic, like silver paint in the 80's/90's

    2. Moderator PsyberVW's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 09:51 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Shomegrown View Post


      Fair enough - though I don't include normal timing belt/water pump, tires, brake pads/rotors etc services as "repairs". That's normal maintenance.
      ECHO ECHO ECHO!!

    3. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 09:57 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by PsyberVW View Post
      ECHO ECHO ECHO!!
      Some of those things need to be done far more often on some cars than on other cars, and those things can cost much more for some cars than for others. I see no reason to exclude them other than to artificially make unreliable car look more reliable.

    4. Banned butterface's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:01 PM #54
      It's a shame that you feel that way since you have evidently hit the pinnacle of automotive luxury. No place to go but down I'm afraid.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...uxo-ratings%29

    5. Member adrew's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:04 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      Some of those things need to be done far more often on some cars than on other cars, and those things can cost much more for some cars than for others. I see no reason to exclude them other than to artificially make unreliable car look more reliable.
      When shopping for new cars, I don't just research all the features and specifications, but also the maintenance schedule. Something ordinary that requires a $700 timing belt job every 6 years automatically gets kicked down a few notches.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    6. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:04 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      Some of those things need to be done far more often on some cars than on other cars, and those things can cost much more for some cars than for others. I see no reason to exclude them other than to artificially make unreliable car look more reliable.
      The only VAG car I can think of with an unusally short timing belt interval is the RS6.

      And if you can't find a good independent shop to do a timing belt on an a VAG 4 or 6 cylinder engine for just a few hundred bucks, you're doing it wrong.

    7. Moderator PsyberVW's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:10 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      When shopping for new cars, I don't just research all the features and specifications, but also the maintenance schedule. Something ordinary that requires a $700 timing belt job every 6 years automatically gets kicked down a few notches.
      No one hides the service schedule from you. The problem is, 99% of the lemmings never look at it and wait for someone to tell them it needs to be replaced. Many of the cheap bastards won't do the services either - they'll just change the oil and assume the rest is fine.

      That is NEGLECT, not UN-RELIABILITY.

    8. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:19 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by PsyberVW View Post
      No one hides the service schedule from you. The problem is, 99% of the lemmings never look at it and wait for someone to tell them it needs to be replaced. Many of the cheap bastards won't do the services either - they'll just change the oil and assume the rest is fine.

      That is NEGLECT, not UN-RELIABILITY.
      But that happens with all brands and models, not just the German engineered ones.

      One issue I have with some of the German car fans here is the blatant hypocrisy.

      When under warranty- the "dealership experience" is part of the reason to own a German car.
      But once that car is off warranty, the German car ownership experience means learning how to do everything yourself (or finding a local qualified German car mechanic for cheap).
      And that just seems like two sides of the same coin.
      “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

    9. Member adrew's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:30 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by PsyberVW View Post
      No one hides the service schedule from you. The problem is, 99% of the lemmings never look at it and wait for someone to tell them it needs to be replaced. Many of the cheap bastards won't do the services either - they'll just change the oil and assume the rest is fine.
      Yep. I'm just saying that I make it an integral part of the deciding process. Maybe other people don't check out the service schedule, but I do. I made a whole spreadsheet that figured out the total lifecycle costs and narrowed it down to a handful of cars that were inexpensive, fun enough, reliable, efficient and cheap to maintain.

      Examples:

      • Timing belt or chain?
      • Does it take regular oil or synthetic?
      • Regular gas or premium?
      • $75 tires or $200 ones?
      • For transmission fluid, does it take $10 of 10W30 or $200 of dealer-only proprietary stuff?
      • Any other special services, like periodic valve adjustments?



      All of that adds up over the car's lifetime in both money and time spent getting it serviced/doing it yourself.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    10. Member TrackMagicWS6's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:33 PM #60
      Lol, piddly things.

      97 Trans Am garage kept. 100,000 miles.

      Both window motors replaced twice.

      Rear intake leak fixed.

      Rear end leak fixed

      I'm on my 4th or 5th Optispark, I can't even remember anymore.

      T-Tops leak.

      Catalytic converters bad. Nice glitter comes out my exhaust.

      There are more. I just can't remember them all. I would welcome the problems a VW/Audi would give me.

    11. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:44 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by TrackMagicWS6 View Post
      There are more. I just can't remember them all. I would welcome the problems a VW/Audi would give me.
      I wonder how the part prices compare.
      And nobody (sane) ever bragged about the build quality of their Trans Am.
      “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

    12. Member Black Jetta GT's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:45 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      Indicative of the brand. I'm having many of the same small but stupidly expensive and annoying issues with my Audi, and have had the same with pretty much every of the 20+ VWs I've owned or had to daily in the past. It's just the way they are.

      I still love them and am still considering an Audi to replace my current Audi. You just have to accept it.

      Edit to add: as a monthly average, my Audi is costing 10x more than my Boxster to run, per month. Not a word of exaggeration. Granted, I've had the Boxster for half the time, but still, it's a non-stop stream of CELs and warning lights and strange noises and new cosmetic problems with the interior. I consider it a very, very good day when I get into the car and it gets me 5 km down the road to work without adding to its list of things that need to be fixed.
      Quote Originally Posted by ModernMaven View Post
      And I write this and still, the eternal optimist in me who loves Audis, I sit here and think "This is just a fluke. Next time, it will better. I won't have these problems."
      This sounds like an abusive relationship. There is absolutely no reason to put up with these issues; no more VW for me for the time being

    13. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:48 PM #63
      Do European market VWs/Audis have these issues too?
      I wonder if maybe it has something to do with US pricing goals, and part sourcing compromises.
      “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

    14. Member Short Bus's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:55 PM #64
      I enjoy my car enough on a day to day basis that I could become a VW cheerleader.... then the outside front and inside rear brakes kick in when I aggressively throw it into a corner with the ESP set to "off" and I'm shaken from my trance.

      Heaven help me if I ever get to the point that little crap starts failing over and over again. I don't have much patience for that nonsense. I bought the car with the intention of seeing the odometer hit 200k miles. But I'll ditch it way earlier than that if it gives me any lip.

      But then again, I'm also looking for any excuse to sell my car and buy a Cayman, so whatever....
      Last edited by Short Bus; 09-06-2011 at 10:57 PM.

    15. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:57 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Yep. I'm just saying that I make it an integral part of the deciding process. Maybe other people don't check out the service schedule, but I do. I made a whole spreadsheet that figured out the total lifecycle costs and narrowed it down to a handful of cars that were inexpensive, fun enough, reliable, efficient and cheap to maintain.

      Examples:

      • Timing belt or chain?
      • Does it take regular oil or synthetic?
      • Regular gas or premium?
      • $75 tires or $200 ones?
      • For transmission fluid, does it take $10 of 10W30 or $200 of dealer-only proprietary stuff?
      • Any other special services, like periodic valve adjustments?



      All of that adds up over the car's lifetime in both money and time spent getting it serviced/doing it yourself.
      And after all that you ended up with a Yaris?

      I sure as hell won't bother with that spreadsheet then, no offense.

    16. Member FourPointOh's Avatar
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      09-06-2011 10:58 PM #66
      I have some experience with the topic of how well german cars age:

      First Audi, purchased in 2007

      2002 A4 1.8t 5spd w/70k miles, drove it up until I wrecked it at 120k miles:
      -Timing belt/waterpump etc had to be done when I purchased it (negotiated into the price)
      -Was very reliable until about 90k when the cam chain tensioner failed (independent shop charged around $1200 to do the job)
      -Coilpacks
      -Thermostat
      -Failing soft-touch


      2001 TT225 6spd 85k-115k

      -Timing belt tensioner went bad, ended up doing the timing belt on my own dime
      -Power steering pump went, changed it out myself (good thing the steering rack was intact)
      -Battled a slew of overheating issues between 90k-100k miles, replaced thermostat twice, waterpump, coolant flushes etc...ended up being the cluster failing, then the middle screen began to die shortly there-after, as well as the radio screen
      -Battled countless random electrical issues, mostly with the windows, seats, and climate control
      -Coilpacks blew
      -Clutch/flywheel, replaced with a stage III spec unit ($$$$)
      -Haldex coupler began to make noise, and I had intermittent function of the haldex awd

      At which point i traded the car in

      2004 Cooper S bought 60k-77k and being daily driven

      -Front control arm bushings (had a shake in the steering wheel, replaced with powerflex bushings)
      -Motor mount, replaced it myself in the driveway

      Needless to say, no electric issues so far, and the car has been very reliable (knock on wood!)
      Last edited by FourPointOh; 09-06-2011 at 11:04 PM.

    17. 09-06-2011 11:06 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Do European market VWs/Audis have these issues too?
      I wonder if maybe it has something to do with US pricing goals, and part sourcing compromises.
      VW has regularly finished towards the bottom of AutoBild's reliability rankings - so it's not a US thing.

      The bright spot is that Audi has been moving on up; VW not so much yet.
      Why you wouldn’t (buy an Optima SX):

      Because you have your eyes on the Frigidaire Limited Edition Camry that you saw last weekend at the neighborhood Autoplex
      .
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    18. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      09-07-2011 12:27 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by Shomegrown View Post
      The only VAG car I can think of with an unusally short timing belt interval is the RS6.

      And if you can't find a good independent shop to do a timing belt on an a VAG 4 or 6 cylinder engine for just a few hundred bucks, you're doing it wrong.
      And how does it compare to other cars with timing chains? Shorter, eh?

      If you can point me to an independent shop that will do the timing belt on my A4 for less than $800, I'll paypal you half the difference. Why so much? Because Audi mounted the 1.8T sideways in my car, making the timing belt impossible to access. Same reason I had to have the engine dropped to replace a faulty coolant flange. Why shouldn't the added expense of that design decision factor into the total cost of ownership of the car?

      There's also oil changes on my Porsche, which cost exactly twice as much as for other cars because it uses twice the oil. Why shouldn't that count towards TCO? I spend $200 a year on oil on the Porsche, whereas other similar cars would be less than half that (like, say, an S2000).

      Tires are another example. Why shouldn't that count towards TCO? It costs me a lot more for tires on my Boxster than it would on an S2000.

      Many cars cost more to maintain, and need maintenance more often. It's incorrect not to factor that into TCO. The only people who do this are those who want to make German cars look more reliable and cheaper to run than they are.
      Last edited by Jader Pack; 09-07-2011 at 12:34 AM.

    19. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      09-07-2011 12:30 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by PsyberVW View Post
      No one hides the service schedule from you. The problem is, 99% of the lemmings never look at it and wait for someone to tell them it needs to be replaced. Many of the cheap bastards won't do the services either - they'll just change the oil and assume the rest is fine.

      That is NEGLECT, not UN-RELIABILITY.
      I'm not one of those people, nor do I neglect my cars. I've also noticed that the only people who blame the owners so consistently are German car fans.

      If you can tell me how I could have avoided "neglecting" my coil packs, window regulators, rear windshield wiper motor, fog light bulbs, LCD screens, or any of the other non-servicable parts that fail on my Audi with alarming regularity, I'm all ears.

      It's not neglect, it's unreliable.

    20. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      09-07-2011 12:32 AM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by Black Jetta GT View Post
      This sounds like an abusive relationship. There is absolutely no reason to put up with these issues; no more VW for me for the time being
      I'm under no illusions as to the sort of relationship I have with my VAG cars, nor do I ever buy them thinking they'll be cheap to own. They are unreliable and cost me a lot of money to run. I still buy them because I prefer them over almost anything else.

      I'm just tired of people like those in this thread saying the problems aren't real, don't count, or are my fault. I love VAG cars, you guys don't have to trick me into thinking that they're better than they are.

    21. Member adrew's Avatar
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      09-07-2011 12:51 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by Shomegrown View Post
      And after all that you ended up with a Yaris?

      I sure as hell won't bother with that spreadsheet then, no offense.
      Haha, none taken. My other half is going back to grad school so we wanted something that would be super reliable and cheap to run for the next two years. With the spreadsheet, I was trying to figure out if paying more for something more fuel efficient would work out in the long run, like spending a little extra on a Cruze Eco or Golf TDI compared to the significantly cheaper Yaris. (It wasn't.)

      The Yaris will be paid off in two years, has free maintenance for 25k miles and has cut my fuel bill in half. It looks mediocre on paper but is surprisingly fun to drive since it is so light. The plan is to get something fun in a couple of years when we're dual income again, but right now, with just one car, we need reliability.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    22. 09-07-2011 12:51 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      If you can point me to an independent shop that will do the timing belt on my A4 for less than $800, I'll paypal you half the difference. Why so much? Because Audi mounted the 1.8T sideways in my car, making the timing belt impossible to access.
      I've never heard of longitudinal being referred to as "sideways."
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mini driver

      Quote Originally Posted by JalopnikMatt View Post
      Yeah, I've bypassed y'all and go straight to r/cars.

    23. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      09-07-2011 12:57 AM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by cougar View Post
      I've never heard of longitudinal being referred to as "sideways."
      It is when the engine was designed to be mounted transversely in FWD VWs.

    24. Member Golgo-13's Avatar
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      09-07-2011 12:57 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by ModernMaven View Post
      I feel like I am about to break up with Audi/ VW.

      Yeah, CSB, right? I love(d) the brand and still even think I will buy another sometimes, but after this week, it's becoming very difficult to defend. Or maybe the lesson here is not to have one off warranty? This is my third VW/Audi, but my first off warranty.

      This week, I had my third window regulator fail and my third coolant housing leak. Only 73k miles on the ODO, and I thought it would be hitting its stride by now. It's only stupid crap failing, parts that are poorly designed, perhaps. A portion of the coolant housing had a secton of it melt where it failed, and when we removed it, the connections cracked because of the material, a hard plastic. The new part has metal on the inside, so I am thinking/hoping this is the last time I will have to deal with this. Even the soft touch coating inside the car is now bubbling in places.

      Bad day at Ingolstadt or indicative of the brand? I don't know anymore. I've been down this road before and have been able to wave away some of the issues, but I don't know if I can anymore. Can you tell me that other brands have the same repeated failure rates of some of their parts as well? I don't hear of similar issues on cheaper brands, or am I just not paying attention?

      Is Audi/VW getting better or worse, in your opinion?
      I've been there. I walked away. I went to Acura and Toyota (TL and a 4Runner) and never looked back.


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      09-07-2011 01:00 AM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      And how does it compare to other cars with timing chains? Shorter, eh?

      If you can point me to an independent shop that will do the timing belt on my A4 for less than $800, I'll paypal you half the difference. Why so much? Because Audi mounted the 1.8T sideways in my car, making the timing belt impossible to access. Same reason I had to have the engine dropped to replace a faulty coolant flange. Why shouldn't the added expense of that design decision factor into the total cost of ownership of the car?

      There's also oil changes on my Porsche, which cost exactly twice as much as for other cars because it uses twice the oil. Why shouldn't that count towards TCO? I spend $200 a year on oil on the Porsche, whereas other similar cars would be less than half that (like, say, an S2000).

      Tires are another example. Why shouldn't that count towards TCO? It costs me a lot more for tires on my Boxster than it would on an S2000.

      Many cars cost more to maintain, and need maintenance more often. It's incorrect not to factor that into TCO. The only people who do this are those who want to make German cars look more reliable and cheaper to run than they are.
      A4 1.8t timing belts are easier to replace than the transverse ones. Sure you have to remove the front bumper cover and put the front end in service position, but there is alot more room to work with and no engine mount bracket to fight.

      You got taken for a ride on that coolant flange on the rear of the head. no tech in his right mind would remove the engine to replace it. Yes it will take a couple of hours, and I always end up a bit scratched up, but no where in the service manual does it say to remove the engine. flange + coolant and labor should have been around $250. You should find somebody who knows what they are doing to complete your repairs.
      Quote Originally Posted by VR6Vixen01 View Post
      In part, Jason has to run because it is faster than driving his car...

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