Say Hello to the APR TT RS

[joneze93tsi]

Whenever I open the forum and see a recent post by Aaron, my heart skips a beat, and I rush in for new info on STG3..

127mph is ****ing moving...
I'm sure with everything at 100% he'll touch 129/130 on a good day.

You are taking deposits when?

[R5T]

Movies of that can be found on Youtube, it took place on Santa Pod.

[joneze93tsi]

[Arin@APR]

BTW that's on stock fueling with the stock clutch.

[joneze93tsi]

btw that's on stock fueling with the stock clutch.

good golly miss molley

[Arin@APR]

good golly miss molley

Ohhh, yes!

[jmh2002]

One of our 6MT cars just crossed the quarter mile line with a trap speed of 127 MPH though.

Ok, so I see its a 6MT, not a DSG, and 127mph is getting quick, so Im not trying to hate, but as an honest question, shouldnt a 600hp car easily run sub 11 seconds?

[srq89]

Holy **** the rear end squats on that launch. Its like free air bags.

11.37 is definitely fast. But do you guys think 10s are possible? Any idea what the 60' looks like?

[Arin@APR]

Ok, so I see its a 6MT, not a DSG, and 127mph is getting quick, so Im not trying to hate, but as an honest question, shouldnt a 600hp car easily run sub 11 seconds?

The driver thinks he'll get into the 10's this weekend if the weather cooperates. He said the car wasn't running right, and when he got back to the shop he found a fault boost sensor and a small boost leak. I guess we'll see. That said, I'm sure many variables come into play, and he's not even running on the finished product. He's also running street tires and a full interior.

When it comes to drag racing, and manual shifting, I wouldn't say any time is "easy". Aren't those Tial 770 B5 S4 guys just getting into the 11's with 700 HP?

[joneze93tsi]

Ok, so I see its a 6MT, not a DSG, and 127mph is getting quick, so Im not trying to hate, but as an honest question, shouldnt a 600hp car easily run sub 11 seconds?

Go drive a turbo street car with 600-700hp on the stock clutch to 10's and let us know how it goes.
Getting a turbo AWD car off the line properly without any driver aids is not as easy as most make it out to be. If this was a DSG car, I have no doubts it would be high 10's EASILY.

For reference a 997 Turbo S PDK can hit 10.7-10.8 @ 127-130.
NOT gonna happen with the 6mt I don't care if john force on PCP is driving it.

PS: The RS is a few hundred punds lighter as well. GO TEAM

[Poverty]

For what its worth, my friends hybrid turbo 650hp manual 911 turbo does the 1/4 mile in mid 11's at this same track

[jmh2002]

For what its worth, my friends hybrid turbo 650hp manual 911 turbo does the 1/4 mile in mid 11's at this same track

Seems like everything is about right then

[MitchyRS]

Ok, so I see its a 6MT, not a DSG, and 127mph is getting quick, so Im not trying to hate, but as an honest question, shouldnt a 600hp car easily run sub 11 seconds?

Yes, it should with Jonny at the wheel, perhaps not with a mediocre driver.

DSG car with 420hp so 200bhp less than this manual transmission car has done the 1/4m marginally quicker. (11.371 (DSG) vs 11.372 (6MT) ) The APR Stage 3 car is trapping 127.68mph vs Stage 2 DSG car trapping 122.3mph so the horsepower advantage is definitely there, just needs a few tweeks and Im sure the 6MT car will eventually hit the 10's. I suspect a 10.8 @ 132mph is on the cards when its finished and Jonny is on the ball, as Arin says, looks like he was having issues with a boost leak/sensor so expect a better time next time around

[InTTruder]

My TT RS following the APR Stage 2 + RSC mods.




First-
Kudos to Doug, Keith, Grant, and the whole team at APR who did the R&D, mule/prototyping, and delivery of my TT RS. While I was galivanting about Spain and China, they not only completed the project to better-than-OEM quality, but took care of the car, detailed it, and delivered to me at a time and place of my convenience. I am VERY impressed.

Dr. Jekyll:
- Quiet idle (more about that later)
- Linear, tractable driving about town, over hill and dale, and in difficult stop-and-go traffic.
- Amazing fuel performance: I can usually hit 29 mpg avg to work, and about 24 going home (higher traffic density) on surface streets and artery roads. That makes for 26.5 mpg on the commute- not bad, in fact incredible.
- No drive-line jerkiness or clutch difficulties, including some serious time spent while hammering along during TT-E and HelenBack. The car behaves perhaps even better than OEM: I attribute this to the increased sampling and subsequent better EMS/fuel performance of the package.

- About that quiet idle:

Mr. Hyde:
- He reveals a small bit of himself when starting from cold iron- the precat has to hit a pretty good temperature before it stops barking, so on early AM starts for my commute I strap it all on, connect my ICE, start, listen for the sounds of good oil pressure, and drive away from my bedroom community. By the time I am at the main highway (300 yards or so, past 5 houses asleeping!), we are warm and running silent and deep, like an SSN-21 Seawolf.
- The throttle is linear, and I have not experienced any turbo lag as a result of the change in the performance graphs (see earlier thread discussions below). The car is SWEET JESUS quick. I haven't timed it, but my 60 y/o butt dyno wants to say 3.2 for 0-60 (0-100 for my Canadian friends), give or take. And there just is no need for winding it up to 3500-4000 and dumping the clutch. In fact, I consider that a recipe for disaster.
- The boost and torque come on RIGHT NOW. If the TT RS was a cruise missile before, it is now a hypersonic sub-orbital WMD, capable of obliterating modified Ms and Zs and Cs at will. PERIOD. The RS was already capable, even with quattro-induced understeer: you just point and play. Now the exit from an apex is monstrous, and straight line work is like reeling in small fish.
- I haven't probed top-end speed, and may not be able to, even at AMP. I had already hit 130mph (209kph) at AMP up on top of Eau Rouge after T16. That alone is significant. The braking and tires are limiting factors now, and I need to get Carbotechs and fluid as a minimum before the October HPDE at AMP.

Again- the quality of the work, the informativeness of the personnel, and the customer service for this R&D project are hallmarks of what lurks beneath the skin.

While you're at it, ask Chris Conners for his impressions. I think he drove it Wednesday night, but my 60 y/o brain is suffering from the time-warp introduced by hard pulls in the TT RS!

Git ya some, as we say down South!

[Marty]

Hey Arin, could we get a Stage 3 update??

[Arin@APR]

Hey Arin, could we get a Stage 3 update??

Currently testing a few design changes. Less weight. Better design. More control. I'll have an update sometime in the near future once I have data.

[Arin@APR]

For those who've worked hard for the things they own, you deserve it.

[InTTruder]

^^^^^
LIKE!

[R5T]

For those who've worked hard for the things they own, you deserve it.

The Manual gearbox does this turbo kit no good at all.
The standing starts are awful at the least.
This turbo kit would really bloom with a S-Tronic.

[Arin@APR]

The Manual gearbox does this turbo kit no good at all.
The standing starts are awful at the least.
This turbo kit would really bloom with a S-Tronic.

Ugh.....

This is a 6MT. Stock clutch.

[R5T]

Ugh.....

This is a 6MT. Stock clutch.

Yep, still awful IMHO.

The APR kit is apparently still under 445 ft-lbs (600 Nm) of Torque.
S-Tronic can handle up to 480 ft-lbs (650 Nm).

[Arin@APR]

The APR kit is apparently still under 445 ft-lbs (600 Nm) of Torque.
S-Tronic can handle up to 480 ft-lbs (650 Nm).

Where do people come up with this stuff

[joneze93tsi]

Yep, still awful IMHO.

The APR kit is apparently still under 445 ft-lbs (600 Nm) of Torque.
S-Tronic can handle up to 480 ft-lbs (650 Nm).

DAFUQ?

[JohnLZ7W]

Where do people come up with this stuff

That's what Hans does all day, you should see some of the rumors and photoshops he comes up with.

[InTTruder]

Yep, still awful IMHO.

The APR kit is apparently still under 445 ft-lbs (600 Nm) of Torque.
S-Tronic can handle up to 480 ft-lbs (650 Nm).

You should consult the stars, the augurs, the bones, or the charts-

The APR Stg 2 + RSC is 464 lbs-ft TQ. Whether or not Audi imports that with a DSG is likely a marketing, not a technical, decision.

[Marty]

Currently testing a few design changes. Less weight. Better design. More control. I'll have an update sometime in the near future once I have data.

[Poverty]

The Manual gearbox does this turbo kit no good at all.
The standing starts are awful at the least.
This turbo kit would really bloom with a S-Tronic.

Comeon Hans everything you say these days is negative!

Wheres the old you gone, and the love of audi power?

[sicgolfrowner]

I need to start visiting this side of the forums more often

[PainIs4ThaWeak]

As a foreword, I didn't come to troll, or flame on APR, or VW/Audi in general, or any one of you, but after a good amount of reading on this chassis and powertrain, theres a few things that haven't been discussed in this thread that I think need to be said...

The TT-RS and APR's offering of a GTX30 / GTX35 based upgrade is definitely cool - but for ~$8k, people are seeing 500-600whp from internally unmodified, GT35 powered, 2 liters, reliably - while still trapping 11sec 1/4mi times in the 120-130mph range (Think Honda K20).
I'll say its a great buy if their kit doesn't end up costing $30k. They'd really have my attention if it was in the $10k - $15k range (though I highly doubt it), which even then, considering performance vs. total cost (including vehicle), it'd probably be pretty close to the 0-60 times of a GT-R, though it'd also cost roughly as much as well. A 2009 GT-R can be found in the upper $50k range, about the same as the 2012 TTRS. It seems common assumption, however, that an aftermarket uprated clutch would be needed for any kind of longevity with a GTX30 / 35 on the TT-RS. Arin also mentioned connecting rods, specifically, to make the power reliably (which actually surprises me somewhat).
Assuming the above, why not just start with an equivalent platform from another manufacturer? :\ (namely, the GT-R)

The other thing that really annoys me - and I'm not sure if this is due to APR withholding knowledge to assure their place in the business, or if its due to Audi/VW's ECU logic and encryption algorithims (REALLY? We're encrypting ECU's now? WTH for??) - is that with the TT-RS and a "flash" based tune (or what I would call a "base map"), there is no solution to alter/implement things like launch control RPM or two step; Boost-by-gear mappings; DATALOG! (thats a big one); adjust stability control/traction control (by means other than the pre-determined configurations stored on the console/dash buttons); force diagnostic sensors on/off (eg. - if you're using a speed density tune, then you have no need for a mass airflow sensor - I'd bet the TT-RS will throw a CEL if you were to remove the MAF on a speed density tune (which is probably what APR reflashes are based on) or if you were to remove a secondary oxygen sensor, in the case of no cat. converter, effectively making it impossible to pass inspection legally in many states.); add and map new sensors to the ECU, to be controlled and/or monitored by the ECU logic and installed mapping; or even just VIEW diagnostic trouble codes.
Dare I say, that this makes Hondata and Cobb solutions superior to what APR is offering. But again, I don't know if its due to the extent of barricades that Audi/VW has put in place on their ECUs, and the effort involved with flashing them, or if its APR not wanting to share "secrets", and monopolize.

No two 'like" cars are going to be exactly the same. Nor are two "like" powertrains going to be exactly the same, and I'm not convinced that the quality control exercised on the powertrain of the TT-RS is stringent enough (or even could be stringent enough) that a blanket reflash is going to be accurate for every TT-RS to extract all potential power (or in the case of a slightly less capable powertrain: reduce power, by means of timing and fueling - Of course, this is dependent on how aggressive APR is with their re-flashes - though I'm sure it'll be fine for a very high margin of customers - which is my case and point...)

Having said that - I'd really like to see a full-on tuning solution (eg. Hondata / Cobb / etc) that utilizes the OEM ECU, and retains the OEM ECU logic (vs. a "piggy-back" or replacement ECU system [eg. AEM EMS]) - At that point, anyone with tuning knowledge, or a third party tuner, would have the ability to apply accurate ignition timing and fueling for open and closed loop operation, while targeting desired AFRs without knock - all the while being able to pass state mandated safety/emissions inspections (assuming no visual inspection is done, in the case no cat is present.)

[flamesuiton]

[joneze93tsi]

As a foreword, I didn't come to troll, or flame on APR, or VW/Audi in general, or any one of you, but after a good amount of reading on this chassis and powertrain, theres a few things that haven't been discussed in this thread that I think need to be said...

The TT-RS and APR's offering of a GTX30 / GTX35 based upgrade is definitely cool - but for ~$8k, people are seeing 500-600whp from internally unmodified, GT35 powered, 2 liters, reliably - while still trapping 11sec 1/4mi times in the 120-130mph range (Think Honda K20).
I'll say its a great buy if their kit doesn't end up costing $30k. They'd really have my attention if it was in the $10k - $15k range (though I highly doubt it), which even then, considering performance vs. total cost (including vehicle), it'd probably be pretty close to the 0-60 times of a GT-R, though it'd also cost roughly as much as well. A 2009 GT-R can be found in the upper $50k range, about the same as the 2012 TTRS. It seems common assumption, however, that an aftermarket uprated clutch would be needed for any kind of longevity with a GTX30 / 35 on the TT-RS. Arin also mentioned connecting rods, specifically, to make the power reliably (which actually surprises me somewhat).
Assuming the above, why not just start with an equivalent platform from another manufacturer? :\ (namely, the GT-R)

The other thing that really annoys me - and I'm not sure if this is due to APR withholding knowledge to assure their place in the business, or if its due to Audi/VW's ECU logic and encryption algorithims (REALLY? We're encrypting ECU's now? WTH for??) - is that with the TT-RS and a "flash" based tune (or what I would call a "base map"), there is no solution to alter/implement things like launch control RPM or two step; Boost-by-gear mappings; DATALOG! (thats a big one); adjust stability control/traction control (by means other than the pre-determined configurations stored on the console/dash buttons); force diagnostic sensors on/off (eg. - if you're using a speed density tune, then you have no need for a mass airflow sensor - I'd bet the TT-RS will throw a CEL if you were to remove the MAF on a speed density tune (which is probably what APR reflashes are based on) or if you were to remove a secondary oxygen sensor, in the case of no cat. converter, effectively making it impossible to pass inspection legally in many states.); add and map new sensors to the ECU, to be controlled and/or monitored by the ECU logic and installed mapping; or even just VIEW diagnostic trouble codes.
Dare I say, that this makes Hondata and Cobb solutions superior to what APR is offering. But again, I don't know if its due to the extent of barricades that Audi/VW has put in place on their ECUs, and the effort involved with flashing them, or if its APR not wanting to share "secrets", and monopolize.

No two 'like" cars are going to be exactly the same. Nor are two "like" powertrains going to be exactly the same, and I'm not convinced that the quality control exercised on the powertrain of the TT-RS is stringent enough (or even could be stringent enough) that a blanket reflash is going to be accurate for every TT-RS to extract all potential power (or in the case of a slightly less capable powertrain: reduce power, by means of timing and fueling - Of course, this is dependent on how aggressive APR is with their re-flashes - though I'm sure it'll be fine for a very high margin of customers - which is my case and point...)

Having said that - I'd really like to see a full-on tuning solution (eg. Hondata / Cobb / etc) that utilizes the OEM ECU, and retains the OEM ECU logic (vs. a "piggy-back" or replacement ECU system [eg. AEM EMS]) - At that point, anyone with tuning knowledge, or a third party tuner, would have the ability to apply accurate ignition timing and fueling for open and closed loop operation, while targeting desired AFRs without knock - all the while being able to pass state mandated safety/emissions inspections (assuming no visual inspection is done, in the case no cat is present.)

[flamesuiton]

This is your first post, on a subject you are ill informed on.
Of course you are a troll, so please go elsewhere.

[mtbscoTT]

I'm kind of at a loss too. Guy joins the forum just to say he really doesn't know much about VAG technology, but that he thinks APR sucks or is "withholding" information.
And then wonders why they don't just tune Nissans instead?

[joneze93tsi]

I'm kind of at a loss too. Guy joins the forum just to say he really doesn't know much about VAG technology, but that he thinks APR sucks or is "withholding" information.
And then wonders why they don't just tune Nissans instead?

Exactly, he has no purpose other than to troll, then says, "I'm not here to troll".

DAFUQ?

[PainIs4ThaWeak]

Just stated facts. Point out errors if you find any.

Otherwise, thanks for your valuable input

[canuckttrs]

Assuming the above, why not just start with an equivalent platform from another manufacturer? :\ (namely, the GT-R)[flamesuiton]

why don't you go to nagtroc and post over there? dun feed the troll.

[joneze93tsi]

I'll say its a great buy if their kit doesn't end up costing $30k. <---This is hilariously stupid in of itself.

Assuming the above, why not just start with an equivalent platform from another manufacturer? :\ (namely, the GT-R) <---- Wrong Forum you retarded troll.

(eg. - if you're using a speed density tune, then you have no need for a mass airflow sensor - I'd bet the TT-RS will throw a CEL if you were to remove the MAF on a speed density tune (which is probably what APR reflashes are based on) <-- 200% Wrong, The RS is MAP based and has no MAF to begin with and APR's MAF tunes still use the MAF... Again, retarded troll.


if you were to remove a secondary oxygen sensor, in the case of no cat. converter, effectively making it impossible to pass inspection legally in many states <--- APR already tunes around Test Pipes and has for years, ask me how I know?... Again. retarded troll.

Now please, GTFO.