Installed BFI Stage 2 Chip, ran great for 4 days, now idle problems & rev hang

[Patrick007]

I had a GIAC chip installed, and went over to the BFI stage 2. Once running, the car ran fantastic for about 4 days. I was really pleased that the rev-hang issues (revs hanging up between shifts) were gone (when I let off the throttle, the revs dropped quickly back to about 1050rpm idle). Then a problem developed suddenly where the rev-hang returned and when coming back to idle, the engine will float between 1500-2000rpm for a few seconds before returning to idle. The rev-hang is much more noticeable now than when the GIAC was installed. When cruising around 1500rpm, I can feel the motor trying to pull gently towards 2000rpm. Intake system is clean and no check engine light. When I put the GIAC chip back in, it seems to run just like it used to (same amount of rev-hang, returns to idle quickly). Re-install the BFI chip, and the problem is back, even after clearing the ECU via VAGCOM (just to clear whatever learning sequence it does). Thus far BFI doesn't have an explanation. There aren't any vacuum leaks. I took the cover off the idle control motor, cleaned it with contact cleaner, and nothing appeared visually broken in there but it's obviously not serviceable. The only thing I can think of is the throttle body needs to be replaced, but I don't understand why the problem doesn't show itself with the GIAC chip installed. I can only surmise that the BFI chip is actuating the idle control motor in a different manner and the original idle control stepper motor can't keep up?

I posted videos to exemplify the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6og6H0SHGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AkaxO9lUYM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6-QMbg7M8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFPj1mwtx3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np7fesgM2H4

What the hell is going on? I'm super frustrated because the car ran the best it ever had for about 4 days.. and now it's all gone to **** again grr.

-Patrick

[gtiswapped96]

Yeah bro same deal here....I hated the revs when I first got it...then I got used to it....I noticed it also does it while cruising so I don't think its just an idle prob but rather am rpm prob....did u shoot a p0172 code at all? A few of us have...also where did u find a 3.5bar fpr for our motor? Alls I could find was the stock 3bar...and if ur not popping the code I'm thinking this could be the reason also do u like the bucking when cruising at low rpms and letting off the gas? Gives me a headache lol

[gtiswapped96]

Also one thing I noticed that if u let the clutch in at low rpms it didn't hang like it did when shifting regular..low I'm saying around 800 or so...reg bout 1500...but then I would have to rethink when to shift so that got annoying too

[911_fan]

if you have vagcom, lower your idle speed. There is no real need to be sitting at 1050 rpms for idle. Its only set there because most customers are afraid of a lopey idle and the higher idle rpm smooths it out. This particular chip lets you manipulate whatever idle speed you want. I ran a 276 at 850 rpms and never had this rev hang issue once the ECU adapted to the tune. (play with the 10-132 values. Some ecu's take a value while some dont. Just add the lowest value that the ecu till accept)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ed-for-the-ABA

[911_fan]

And I see by your mods you are running a 3.5bar FPR. Why? What is your AFR readings? There is no need for a street N/A ABA to need anything but a stock FPR.

[Patrick007]

3.5 bar FPR found here:

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/p...ator_New_Style

I don't have a wideband gauge installed, and I just recently starting using VAGCOM so I have to figure out how to log the O2 sensor voltage I guess to know what my AFR is. The reason I went richer on the FPR was because the plugs never really appeared tan like they should, always a bit too white for my liking, so I wanted to err on the side of too rich at full throttle. I could certainly try going back to the stock FPR perhaps that will help this issue somehow?

So far, no engine codes of any kind, system readiness all completed.

Going to try lowering the idle speed now... god I hope that works. Thanks for all the input so far. Keep it coming

-Patrick

[911_fan]

I would put that stock 3bar FPR back in until you can get an accurate AFR reading with a wideband. I never touched it in my old build and never ever had lean issues. Always had plenty of fuel WOT no problem with it. Hell, 1.8ts run a 3bar stock on boost. But its your car.

[Patrick007]

Tried changing the idle value... it seems the only value to change is channel 05? Not sure why the in the thread you linked to it says channels 05-11. Anyway the value at channel 05 was 128, and it won't let me save a value any lower. I can raise the value and save it, but it doesn't seem to have an effect. The problem seems to get worse every time I mess with it... ugh

-Patrick

[911_fan]

play around with it dude. I ran into the same problem. Mess with it until it takes.

[Patrick007]

It's only channel 05 I should be changing is this correct? I believe channels 06 and 07 had either a 1 or a 0, and the others were not available. On the post you linked to, the guy with the 99 said he had to change channels 01-05 in order to make the idle speed change, any thoughts on that? I'm still not 100% convinced this isn't a throttle body issue but, I'll keep playing with the idle speed. For anyone else thinking of going with BFI, I'd think twice.. awful customer service, and when they finally do return an email or phone call the response has literally been "hmm, that's weird... let us know if you fix it"

-Patrick

[911_fan]

Like I said in another thread, BFI had this chip made for them by C2. They wouldnt know how to fix any issue related to this as they did not write or test the software.

[Patrick007]

Okay I got it to take new values (currently set to 90, was 128) in channels 01-05. The idle is definitely lower, but the problem is still there. When I'm coming to a stop and put the clutch in the revs now oscillate between 1900 - 2100, and sometimes it never settles back down. If (when stopped) I use the clutch to pull the revs back down to idle, then it will stay at 850 and idle there, but if I rev the motor a little, again the revs climb back up to the 2000 range and oscillates around there. How is this not throwing a CEL? Would it be worth it to return the BFI chip and head over to C2? This is really pissing me off now.

-Patrick

[911_fan]

ITs the same software.

Sounds like the stepper motor in your throttle body is pooched. Will it take a TB alignment from VAGCOM? Or does it give you errors?

[The Big V]

i had this same issue with my C2/BFI chip...it bucked at low rpms and when sitting at a stop light the revs would just start climbing to 2k and hang and then lower a bit and then raise. i just put the stock chip back in because i was getting crazy rich codes and started getting misfires and everything...turns out i had a small tear in a spark plug wire so fixed that...but the hanging idle and rpms remains a mystery. i don't have vagcom although some friends do but i bought some silicone vac hose and gonna just redo the entire damn vac system cause i've always wanted to anyhow and now is a good excuse. besides a catback exhaust i didn't have any other mods done...i cleaned the throttle body out nearly a year ago...tested the MAF and the ignition coil and some other stuff while diagnosing the misfires...i think i'll wait to put the chip back in once i get my ported and decked head and 276 cam etc in there...i'm due for a timing belt and waterpump and a big pre-winter overhaul anyhow so gonna try to cram it all in a weekend or late late night.

i wasn't as excited about the higher rpm because worried about a lopey idle with the cam setup but morseo because i have a hybrid poly engine mount setup and i would get some slight vibration at 800-850 (especially with a/c running at idle/stop) and was hoping to bump it to something like 950 to smooth it out a bit more. i will def be following this thread...keep us posted.

one note...even though the C2 chip sets readiness you still need to drive it around a bit for enough data to pop a CEL etc...so i'd give it some time after you set an idle speed and see if any more data comes to light from el computer...although i guess with vagcom you can monitor running stats to make sure things are in line too...

[Patrick007]

Just purchased a new Throttle Body... will update after that's installed. I've been driving for a couple hundred miles now and the problem remains unchanged, still no CEL.

-Patrick

[Pry]

any update on this? I am looking to get a obd2 chip for my car, was wanting the bfi chip but now im not so sure, might just save the $100 and get the TT chip..

[The Big V]

i just realized you have a 1998...i have an early 1999....wonder if there is any specific difference with the 1998-1999 aba or ecu...? the radios are different in our cars and not compatible with the earlier mkiii's...also does your intake have the heater element/vac line/plug on your intake elbow like the mk3.5 cabrios? my SAI i think is failing or failed and wondering if that can also effect the idle and the c2 chip to hang revs for some reason. the rev problem seems to happen on cold engine as well as after warmed up...short drives and long...anxious to see if your throttle body makes any difference. thanks

[Patrick007]

New throttle body installed, removed the ground wire from the battery to reset everything computer wise, and I have about 150 miles on it since the TB install. Currently there's zero difference between the old and new throttle body. Last I spoke with Joe from BFI, he said he was working with Chris from C2 to come up with some ideas, but I haven't heard anything more from them. This sucks. I mean overall the car runs much better with the BFI (vs GIAC), no pinging, smoother power delivery, but the idle & rev hang is just obnoxious. As I said before, the first 4 or 5 days of running the BFI chip were amazing. When I let off the throttle to shift, it felt like the throttle actually closed, which was a sensation I'd never felt in this car before. The revs plummeted, and it made a nice noise in doing so. The issue then came on suddenly (can't remember if it was while I was driving, or after a startup) Now it's like I push the clutch in to shift and I have to wait for a second or two before the computer decides it's damn good and ready to close the throttle. When I'm pulling into a parking spot or to a traffic light I sometimes have to drag the clutch to 'pull' the revs back down from 2k to idle. I'm going to re-re-double check that I have no vacuum leaks, but I'm pretty sure it's the chip mis-directing the idle control motor. Any other chips worth trying or other diagnostic tests I can do?

-Patrick

[The Big V]

funny i just email Joe and sent a PM to Jeff per tdogg and pete@bfi's suggestions...

i couldn't help but notice that at least 4 or 5 of us that have been bringing these problems up lately all have 1998-early1999 mk3's. i know with the radio and several other little things (sensors or whatever) that our cars aren't compatible with earlier mk3's or even other obd2 mk3's...is this a random commonality or could have some relation to the issues?? does anyone with earlier 1993-95 or 1996-1997 mk3's have any of the shared issues (rev hanging and rising, p0605 rom error or p0172 too rich codes)??

do all of you have your SAI deleted completely/properly??

just trying to add or point out anything...someone get me up to speed with what c2/bfi have been saying? anyone else PM Jeff and get a response?

[Minor_Threat]

I have a 276 cam and the stage 2 BFI chip, I idle at 1000 RPMs, but when I first start the car, I have no cold idle at all, my idle bounces all over the place, you actually have to hold throttle for it to stay running, but when it warms up then the idle stays at around 1000 RPMs

thinking I might have a bad MAF sensor

[Patrick007]

To add to what BigV said: Remember when tdogg posted about how to change the idle speed via VAGCOM, there was a reply indicating that the channels that needed changing for a 99 cabrio were different than what tdogg had indicated. I confirmed on my 98 that channels 01-05 were the ones that needed changing to update the idle speed, so that seems to be another difference between some OBD2 mk3's and the 98-early 99's.

Couple other notes, I'm running the stock FPR again, no noticeable difference.

Finally, the idle problem is much worse with the AC on. To account for compressor drag the computer has to open the TB a little more to maintain idle, but this seems to really exacerbate the idle float. The motor is much more likely to hang at 2k and stay there when the AC is on.

Joe (BFI) and Chris (C2) are working together to examine the coding to see if there's an error somewhere that can be corrected to help this issue. Otherwise more testing would be needed on their end to understand/correct the issue, which may take some time.

I'd like to apologize for slamming BFI's customer service before, I shouldn't post when I'm angry. Turned out Joe was at H2O and wasn't ignoring me. He has offered me a full refund at any time, but I'm going to hold tight and perhaps I can help with any diagnostic tests to solve the problem.

-Patrick

[The Big V]

yeah does sound like the MAF...if you unplug the MAF (and leave it unplugged) does it stop the problem on cold starts??

do your revs hang or rise inbetween shifting or as described in this thread at all?? you still used original 1998 wolfsburg edition ecu and aba with your build correct?

I have a 276 cam and the stage 2 BFI chip, I idle at 1000 RPMs, but when I first start the car, I have no cold idle at all, my idle bounces all over the place, you actually have to hold throttle for it to stay running, but when it warms up then the idle stays at around 1000 RPMs

thinking I might have a bad MAF sensor

[The Big V]

i will also note that BFI sent me a similar email...the communication about not knowing if this will get fixed or how long it will take and offering an anytime full refund is very much appreciated...i know they spent money and time to have the chip developed at C2 and to support their products and customers this way is the right way to do business.
_______

To add to what BigV said: Remember when tdogg posted about how to change the idle speed via VAGCOM, there was a reply indicating that the channels that needed changing for a 99 cabrio were different than what tdogg had indicated. I confirmed on my 98 that channels 01-05 were the ones that needed changing to update the idle speed, so that seems to be another difference between some OBD2 mk3's and the 98-early 99's.

it's been 12yrs since i took a programming class (and i only took 1) but bear with me. i'll try to make this understandable. say you split an ECU into 3 variables...1 covers allll general operations and accounts for 96% of functionality, 2 controls one aspect of idle/throttle (2%), and 3 is the coding for another aspect of idle/throttle (2%). now you take an ECU and you map certain changes with it to adjust for higher/specific performance...its tested and developed with 100% compatibility. then you take an ECU which has the same 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3) and you put the same higher/specific performance mapped adjustments onto it...the car starts and runs fine except for an idle/throttle issue.....see where i'm going with this? if, when using VAGCOM on the 1998-2002 ABA ECU's, you have to modify different channels to adjust the idle versus 1996-1997 obd2 ecu's then wouldn't that suggest the coding is slightly different and wouldn't you have to change the programming in the PEM chip to match?? now the reason i made 2 variables for idle/throttle is that they have to have at least 2 (if not more) inputs....there's obviously the idle setting but that's different than the throttle adapt...and i'm sure there are other reasons the computer would "compensate" with throttle behavior based on other data its getting*.

Patrick007--do you have access to a 1996-1997 ECU you can swap in with your BFI chip installed??

am i off my rocker for thinking this? does anyone have idle issues using this PEM chip on any ABA ECU other than 1998-2002 (or for that matter--NOT have issues while running original 1998-2002 ecu)? i think the most common CEL codes i've seen associated with the BFI/C2 PEM are p0172 (rich) and p0605 (ROM error) codes and are separate issues most likely.....although i suppose if the idle is wonky due to mismatched coding then a ROM error could come up and it could fault the computer into fighting and thinking its adapting for rich conditions*...but thats a stretch and beyond any information/data i've seen.....is there any overlapping consistency with codes and idle/throttle issues and ECU "years" (haven't noted part #'s)??

done with my ramble for now. thanks for playin.

[Minor_Threat]

yeah does sound like the MAF...if you unplug the MAF (and leave it unplugged) does it stop the problem on cold starts??

do your revs hang or rise inbetween shifting or as described in this thread at all?? you still used original 1998 wolfsburg edition ecu and aba with your build correct?

no i acutally don't have any hang or rise inbetween shifting. I just have the cold idle issue, I did unplug my MAF and made no difference, plus I'm throwing a current code for the MAF sensor

[Patrick007]

Patrick007--do you have access to a 1996-1997 ECU you can swap in with your BFI chip installed??

am i off my rocker for thinking this? :

I don't... if someone has an extra they want to lend me to try it out I'd gladly do that. I also don't think you're off you're rocker. There must be a difference between the various years' ECU's that isn't being accounted for.

http://www.autotech.com/product/chip...abbit-mkiii-2l

Notice autotech requires the VW part number off the ECU when purchasing the chip. Perhaps they have determined the differences between the various ECU models?

-Patrick

[The Big V]

no i acutally don't have any hang or rise inbetween shifting. I just have the cold idle issue, I did unplug my MAF and made no difference, plus I'm throwing a current code for the MAF sensor

is it still the original 1998 wolfsburg engine and ecu that you are currently using??

[The Big V]

I don't... if someone has an extra they want to lend me to try it out I'd gladly do that. I also don't think you're off you're rocker. There must be a difference between the various years' ECU's that isn't being accounted for.

http://www.autotech.com/product/chip...abbit-mkiii-2l

Notice autotech requires the VW part number off the ECU when purchasing the chip. Perhaps they have determined the differences between the various ECU models?

-Patrick

Techtonics Tuning does the same thing....its generally for emissions and physical changes (SAI for instance) that aren't incorporated in all the tunes i thought...but asking for ECU #'s might lead me to think there's more to it and that maybe i'm not far off...
http://techtonicstuning.com/main/ind...cPath=2_13_252

[GloryFreak]

I have the EXACT same issue as Patrick. My car is a 1996 VW Golf ABA 2.0 .

Mods:
BFI stage 2 flash, autotech 260* cam, evoms intake, msd ss coil, autotech 2.5" cat-back, 2.5" magnaflow high flow cat, & pace setter headers.

Maintence & Troubleshooting:
Replaced spark plugs, wires, coil, vacuum lines, pcv system, evap purge valve, distributor cap & button, maf, front o2, ait, throttle body, oil pressure sensor, oil is 5w30.

ONLY code I am getting is the 16556 - System too Rich code.

My throttle body is able to re-align itself every time I align it with VCDS.

I have the REV hang and no my car didn't come with a SAI. Also, car sometimes dies in the morning whenever I crank it up from a cold start.

[Minor_Threat]

is it still the original 1998 wolfsburg engine and ecu that you are currently using??

yes its still the same motor, I have a different ECU because my original one died and wouldn't let the car run the ECU is out of a 1998 wolfsburg though

[The Big V]

thanks GloryFreak and Minor_Threat....that sorta eliminates the ecu/year guess of mine...the 16556 code is the same as the p0172 CEL i believe...which often means MAF but we've all been down that road already...hmmmm...back to the drawing board.

[GloryFreak]

thanks GloryFreak and Minor_Threat....that sorta eliminates the ecu/year guess of mine...the 16556 code is the same as the p0172 CEL i believe...which often means MAF but we've all been down that road already...hmmmm...back to the drawing board.

It is http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...6/P0172/000370 and I bought a brand new MAF from german auto parts like a month ago. So that's not it.

[gtiswapped96]

so fellas heres my two cents once again...as u guys might have read in numerous post bout this issue i also have the popular set up (intake, bfi stage 2 chip, 270 cam, headers, no cat, 2.25 exhaust) also i should prob mention i have a 96 aba no SAI with a OBD1 head..cause i got a sweet deal on it ..anyways my CEL would pop up every day on my way home so i would reset the ECU using my ultragauge...then shopping around this fancy online store (ebay) came across an "air kompressor" for 30 bucks...suppose to send more air into the chambers. sounded like bull so i bought it anyways! its basically a huge vacuum leak if u think about it cause its lettting in air after the MAF(which i recent bought new from GAP.com) but check this out no more CEL....now i havent checked to see if our little friend is pending...which it probably is...its been a week CEL free so0o thats pretty bad ass...this is in no way fixing the problem...im pretty much fooling the o2 sensor cause im shooting xtra air into the chamber...BTW the little knockoff "kompressor" sucks in air like a beast...i hooked it up after the purge valve before the TB...sure u guys have somethign to say bout this set up but hey it works for me...also i was just told my steering rack is shot...i refuse to believe this so0 im gonna rip out the tie rods and hope for the best....ok TTFN

[The Big V]

PMed ya Patrick007 regarding BFI getting in touch with you

[911_fan]

so fellas heres my two cents once again...as u guys might have read in numerous post bout this issue i also have the popular set up (intake, bfi stage 2 chip, 270 cam, headers, no cat, 2.25 exhaust) also i should prob mention i have a 96 aba no SAI with a OBD1 head..cause i got a sweet deal on it ..anyways my CEL would pop up every day on my way home so i would reset the ECU using my ultragauge...then shopping around this fancy online store (ebay) came across an "air kompressor" for 30 bucks...suppose to send more air into the chambers. sounded like bull so i bought it anyways! its basically a huge vacuum leak if u think about it cause its lettting in air after the MAF(which i recent bought new from GAP.com) but check this out no more CEL....now i havent checked to see if our little friend is pending...which it probably is...its been a week CEL free so0o thats pretty bad ass...this is in no way fixing the problem...im pretty much fooling the o2 sensor cause im shooting xtra air into the chamber...BTW the little knockoff "kompressor" sucks in air like a beast...i hooked it up after the purge valve before the TB...sure u guys have somethign to say bout this set up but hey it works for me...also i was just told my steering rack is shot...i refuse to believe this so0 im gonna rip out the tie rods and hope for the best....ok TTFN

WHAT????

[gtiswapped96]

Yeap still CEL free boys...another day went by and nothing....I should probably hook up my ultragauge to see if its pending but to be honest I'm worried about what I'm gonna find.... I'm loving not seeing that light POP up on me on my ride home....so if anything its just delaying it...but hey its a step in the right direction right?