Installed BFI Stage 2 Chip, ran great for 4 days, now idle problems & rev hang

[Hurt]

I decided to buy a Race file Cam chip. (272). I have a fully built ABA. I am experiencing rev hang (around 2k rpm), it runs rich to the point of I can smell it, it bucks at lower than 2k, stalls (idle is about 850) - never had a problem before, but, it has more power than my TT chip, but it isn't worth all these problems! I'm giving it a week. I've already driven a total of 150 miles on it. Nothing is getting better. Pretty dissapointed. I'm definitely going with the BBM kit now. Already ordered it. 250whp here I come.

[macanic21]

I'm beginning to have some issues like I did before. The car is now hanging at 2k and bucking. It's still not bad enough for me to take the chip out yet. It is still much better and is coming back slower than with my old computer. I also now have a CEL, I'll have to do a scan when I get a chance to find out why.

[The Big V]

Well i got a p0172 bank 1 rich code aand still have idle adapt code...the bucking at low rpm was terrible and the rev rise was apparent even though not as bad as it once was in previous chips. I cleared everything and put another chip in. I have one more to test (it doesnt have idle raised and will try to use vagcom on) in a few weeks. I will keep you all posted but not looking good.

[Hurt]

Mine had the common problems at first. I purchased a 272* Race File cam chip and talked to C2 so they could possibly take my added compression into consideration. They did.. (so they claim). I drove it for about 2 weeks with problems. Then.. bam. no more CEL, no more bucking, no more 1.5k idle, (it's set at 850). It pulls to the limiter strong. No blank spots. I am really happy with it, but I am going FI this weekend (lysholm)

A friend of mine has a 1995 Cabrio 2.0 running on OBD2 with:
OBD1 head/block
EuroSport intake
268* cam
OBX or Raceland header (I can't remember)
TT 2.25" exhaust w/flowmaster
No cat
C2 268* chip

He isn't experiencing any problems at all, either.
Another friend has a OBD2 Golf 2.0 with:
260* TT cam
INJEN intake
2.5" magnaflow catback
9a Trans
C2 260* cam file

...Again, no problems.

But, another pal has a 1998 Jetta GT with:
High flow panel filter
2.5" Neuspeed catback
Autotech's 270* cam kit with titanium retainers and HD springs
TT 2.5" SS DP mated to a MK4 manifold
C2 270* file

...and it's running like crap. It's only been a week since he changed his chip, though, so we'll see.

I guess the software is hit or miss.

[The Big V]

so weird...it shouldnt be hit or miss....i wish we could all go meet up and plug in and compare files and logs etc....will you ask C2 what they changed to compensate for your compression?

...

[Hurt]

so weird...it shouldnt be hit or miss....i wish we could all go meet up and plug in and compare files and logs etc....will you ask C2 what they changed to compensate for your compression?

I will ask, but I really doubt they did anything.

[The Big V]

I will ask, but I really doubt they did anything.

I agree but worth asking.

Its gotta be a hardware/incompatibility thing unless faulty chip in someway. There has to be some consistency...some logic...I would hope anyway.

Why does your cam stg 2 race chip idle at 850 now?? The sudden everything ok just popped up?? Can you give us more details? You didnt have to clear the codes? Were you driving or allowing throttle (tps) to adapt.

Ps---excited to see and hear the s/c!!

[911_fan]

The sudden everything ok just popped up?? Can you give us more details?

I believe I covered this near the beginning of this thread...It's called adaptation. And I know you and I discussed this on a personal level a few months ago when you were popping in chips and immediately commenting on how things didn't change. At the bare minimum, it takes 7 legit cold-starts to adapt. And concerning the AC, you need to baby the throttle a few times for it to learn it's load setting. I literally would do all my around-town driving with the AC on so I could use both feet for the brake and gas when coming to stops. Didn't take long to adapt.

On a side note, I'm sure a lot of people who also experience these issues have been running the tune for an extended amount of time; plenty of time for the ECU to fully adapt. And to them I can only lean towards equipment/sensor faults. I myself had serious bucking issues when I put my first PEM in. Car ran just fine on the stock AND TT tune. Popped this sucker in and watched my AFR go dead lean on light throttle tip-in and buck like crazy. Complained to BFI and they suggested I change the MAF. Lo-and-behold, that DID fix it. Car ran superb after that. So many sensors feeding critical input to the ECU, and we are all well aware by now how...sensitive...these tunes are. I dunno....I read Hurt's post and just nodded my head...because that's exactly how it always worked out for me whenever I swapped chips or disconnected the battery and reset the ECU.

[The Big V]

i hear ya Trav....but i only popped that one chip out because it ran horrrrribly and my rpms were up and down and it just kept stalling on me....it was an unusual situation...and i put the oem chip in to see if that was just normal how a chip is (before adapting) but it isn't...apparently BFI/C2 said that had some "bad burns," as they phrased it, that week and some issue with the burning equipment. every other chip i have tested has been for several weeks. none of the chips have been getting better though or adapting (to any normal settings)...only worse with CELs and whathaveyou that we have all discussed.

i will have to look further into my equip and sensors...if the chip is that sensitive then i still think the ported intake mani could be the cause of the idle adapt CEL....and i will look into my MAF i suppose if that is what cured your bucking at lower rpm....i still think its a programming issue and not an equipment/sensor issue...or an incompatibility with program vs equip type thing.

i dont have enough time nor proper equip to do this much longer...wish their shop was down the street.

[brianalexander]

I was experiencing rev hangs from my first BFI chip I received around early November. I've received 2 replacement chips since from BFI and they both wouldn't start my car. It'd crank, not start. If it put the first chip from BFI i received as well as my stock chip in. It starts right up. Anyone else had this issue?

I'm at a loss.

[b5blazing]

I run a bfi Stg 2 272 cam file i actually got it with a motor set up from another member.
I have rev hang like crazy. Not to much bucking.
Sometimes it sounds like a Honda with bad idle air control 2k than super cammy 900k than 2100k
Although when I run 100 octane race fuel it goes away.
****ing retarded. I also get check engine for both 02s but there is no second one and the first is brand new.

I just ordered a Autothority chip non cam specific race file.

[The Big V]

havent had any time whatsoever for VW stuff lately...my car is due for inspection soon and i need to figure out this chip issue still.

as far as i know C2/BFI does NOT have specific cam files....its either stg 1 cam or stg 2...is there any difference between these chips other than the idle adjustment even..?

Hurt -- so you adjusted idle back down to 850rpm with vagcom from the adjusted idle on the chip (1050rpm i believe)????? and who did you speak to at C2 (changed program for compression etc??)?? thanks

Mine had the common problems at first. I purchased a 272* Race File cam chip and talked to C2 so they could possibly take my added compression into consideration. They did.. (so they claim). I drove it for about 2 weeks with problems. Then.. bam. no more CEL, no more bucking, no more 1.5k idle, (it's set at 850). It pulls to the limiter strong. No blank spots. I am really happy with it, but I am going FI this weekend (lysholm)

A friend of mine has a 1995 Cabrio 2.0 running on OBD2 with:
OBD1 head/block
EuroSport intake
268* cam
OBX or Raceland header (I can't remember)
TT 2.25" exhaust w/flowmaster
No cat
C2 268* chip

He isn't experiencing any problems at all, either.
Another friend has a OBD2 Golf 2.0 with:
260* TT cam
INJEN intake
2.5" magnaflow catback
9a Trans
C2 260* cam file

...Again, no problems.

But, another pal has a 1998 Jetta GT with:
High flow panel filter
2.5" Neuspeed catback
Autotech's 270* cam kit with titanium retainers and HD springs
TT 2.5" SS DP mated to a MK4 manifold
C2 270* file

...and it's running like crap. It's only been a week since he changed his chip, though, so we'll see.

I guess the software is hit or miss.

[Hurt]

as far as i know C2/BFI does NOT have specific cam files....its either stg 1 cam or stg 2...is there any difference between these chips other than the idle adjustment even..?

Hurt -- so you adjusted idle back down to 850rpm with vagcom from the adjusted idle on the chip (1050rpm i believe)????? and who did you speak to at C2 (changed program for compression etc??)?? thanks

I'm pretty sure the stage 2 C2 chip doesn't have a secondary o2 delete and a non-cat CEL option. The stage 1 doesn't. I don't know about the cam file difference, I think a bump and idle and some hotter timing, more fuel, I'm not sure.

911_fan knows a lot about these C2 chips.

My idle was set down to 850 RPM or so. It was done by a friend of mine, I am not too good at adjusting idle speed.

I asked C2 about the compression, and they basically said "What? we don't do that.. it never happened".. I wish I saved the conversation.

my Daily ran great until I went to FI.

[b5blazing]

i just switched back to my bfi stg2 272 cam file yesterday. did ecu relearn and car feels better smoother faster than it did last time i had it installed.
no rev hang this time either, but the car feels great.
i had switched off the bfi to an autothority chip(non cam file) and its a night and day diffrence.
im just hoping the rev hang doesnt come back.
im going to advance cam timing +3or4 deg and try for a little extra torque.

but im running obd 1 german head ti retainers, lw lifters , pacesetters headers, racecraft sri, euro tdi trans with 3.97 gears, eurospec lwfw with a 6 puck kevlar, ac & ps deleted, lw underdrive kit, bfi stg 2 272 cam file. pic of bay

im setting up second head, decked more extensive p&p and hd valve set up

[Hurt]

I'm running my C2 stage 2 race/cam file on my completely stock ABA swap mk2.

Idle is good.
Little rev-hang, but it's to be expected until it adapts I guess.

I noticed a pretty reasonable gain over the stock chip.. and this motor is 100% stock. Better midrange, and easier cruising.

[Kiyokix]

Very interesting Hurt...

In other news I decided to do the last thing I could think of to get my full power back. I mentioned already that I've tried 2 different sets of injectors (my originals, and a set I picked up from someone during trouble shooting).

Well I knew that one of the newer ones had a lil crack in the pintle cap, so I figured might as well either buy a new set or get 'em all serviced. I found a shop down the street that did them for $24ea which is good compared to $37 for new injectors from Rock Auto ($10 core charge makes them $27 in the end...but shipping time lol).

Anyway I've been running my TT chip for months now, but after 100 miles or so I put the BFI/C2 back in with the newly refreshed injectors. Car runs like a beast, hasn't stalled (yet), the rev hang isn't as bad (still there but more around the 1-1.5k range), the hesitation isn't nearly as bad. In general the car runs pretty damn good.

The power is absolutely there, and it's evident even though I'm running a heavier wheel/tire setup (~33-34lbs) in comparison to the stock setup I had when I originally got the chip. I'm going to get new wheels fairly soon that will be lighter than both setups so that will be a very very nice boost in accelaration.

It's only been 2.5days since I installed the chip again so we'll see what happens in a weeks time of course.

I do wonder now though if my timing is a smidge off because with the injectors running perfectly now...the car starts TOO fast. It runs great, no weird quirks, power all around (even feel it still accelerating okay at 6k to 6200rpm), feels positively delicious at 3k rpm in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear.

One of these days when I won't die from sweating too much I'll get in there, and see what's up with the timing. It can't be off very far at all (if it is in the first place), but I wanna make sure anyway. I'm also still thinking pretty hard about picking up a lightweight (non underdriven) crank pulley, so I'd be down there anyway.

I'm waiting to see if the rich code comes back (never happened stock or with the TT chip....ever), so I'll let you guys know ASAP if it does come back on, which will make me take the chip back out all over again.

The MAF numbers are interesting between the 3 chips (stock, TT, C2). The C2 chip yields the lowest g/s numbers regardless of temps it seems, and the TT chip yields the highest numbers overall. The C2 doesn't yield 'low' numbers, but they are 1-2g/s lower than the stock, and 2-3g/s lower than the TT.

Kei

(mods refresher: chip, header, test pipe (new cat soon), tt dynomax exhaust)

[Kiyokix]

waiting to see if the rich code comes back (never happened stock or with the TT chip....ever), so I'll let you guys know ASAP if it does come back on, which will make me take the chip back out all over again...

Well that was quick, code came back yesterday, and looking at the lambda numbers while idling just after getting home...it shows -16.4% (when I was looking so it could have been higher at some point).

Back in the box it goes, and I'll install the TT chip again which like I said gave me none of these problems. I'll be truly happy when/if this stuff is ever figured out because I would LOVE to just put in one of these chips, and have that power they give without the side effects/problems. I AM still using the very first revision of the chip from 2010, so that could be different from what some of you guys like V are using.

It's fairly cheap, but I don't wanna buy another one to see if the new non castle style does the trick...just afraid it won't do anything for me. Of course I'm still watching the thread like a hawk to see all the developments that come out of it.

I'm kinda curious on the running a cam spec chip on a non cam car like Hurt is doing...wonder what would happen on my car with that. I mean I AM planning to add a 270 cam to my car at some point, so technically the money wouldn't be wasted lol.

Hurt...you got any codes? (or are you running different management so you can't see those anymore)

Kei

[911_fan]

I'm kinda curious on the running a cam spec chip on a non cam car like Hurt is doing...wonder what would happen on my car with that.

absolutely nothing.

[Hurt]

Hurt...you got any codes? (or are you running different management so you can't see those anymore)

Kei

No, no CEL's for me. Car is different now, has a 268/260 cam, exhaust, MK4 manifolds, etc. Runs good, doesn't buck or stall. Occasionally it'll go from the 850 idle and hang at around 1,000.

[Kiyokix]

absolutely nothing.

lol, that's what I figure but my mind is in a million places trying to figure this thing out. I put the TT chip back in the car this afternoon, and of course everything runs fine. I don't know if I can keep it in there though because that extra power from the other chip is intoxicating lol.

I really do want to find out what is the thing that causes the issues (at least the rich code), so I can just run that chip. The bucking/hesitation really isn't a problem at this time (at least not in those few days), the power is good, but I don't know why the rich code (and value) shows up on that chip and no other so far...

Any ideas Trav you wanna throw at me off the top of your head?

Kei

[Hurt]

Well that was quick, code came back yesterday, and looking at the lambda numbers while idling just after getting home...it shows -16.4% (when I was looking so it could have been higher at some point).

Back in the box it goes, and I'll install the TT chip again which like I said gave me none of these problems. I'll be truly happy when/if this stuff is ever figured out because I would LOVE to just put in one of these chips, and have that power they give without the side effects/problems. I AM still using the very first revision of the chip from 2010, so that could be different from what some of you guys like V are using.

It's fairly cheap, but I don't wanna buy another one to see if the new non castle style does the trick...just afraid it won't do anything for me. Of course I'm still watching the thread like a hawk to see all the developments that come out of it.

I'm kinda curious on the running a cam spec chip on a non cam car like Hurt is doing...wonder what would happen on my car with that. I mean I AM planning to add a 270 cam to my car at some point, so technically the money wouldn't be wasted lol.

Hurt...you got any codes? (or are you running different management so you can't see those anymore)

Kei

You're still using the first revision? You should talk to C2 and see if they'll upgrade your software. I had the first revision and the car ran like poop. I banned myself from using the c2 chips until about 1+1/2 months ago, then the problems pretty much stopped when I got a new race file cam chip.. I was running it on a "built" motor, too. 135whp with a 02A.

[Kiyokix]

I'm still thinking about getting a new revision, but my trust isn't terribly high of course due to this thread + my own issues so far. Once I get a few bucks I don't care about spending (I'm buying other things for the car right now) I'll end up trying out a new model or just buy one from United Motorsport.

Interesting fact, I mentioned the strange super quick starting characteristic the car has after doing the injectors. I swapped out to the TT chip again, and it doesn't do that, just starts like normal. Put the C2 back in, and the car does the super fast startup thing. It didn't change or return to normal after multiple days/miles (around 200-250), and once I put the TT chip back in the car...normal starting all day.

Just thought I'd mention that before I forgot.

Kei

[Hurt]

I'm still thinking about getting a new revision, but my trust isn't terribly high of course due to this thread + my own issues so far. Once I get a few bucks I don't care about spending (I'm buying other things for the car right now) I'll end up trying out a new model or just buy one from United Motorsport.

Interesting fact, I mentioned the strange super quick starting characteristic the car has after doing the injectors. I swapped out to the TT chip again, and it doesn't do that, just starts like normal. Put the C2 back in, and the car does the super fast startup thing. It didn't change or return to normal after multiple days/miles (around 200-250), and once I put the TT chip back in the car...normal starting all day.

Just thought I'd mention that before I forgot.

Kei

UM software is the same as C2. Personally I don't trust UM because they claim you'll gain 15whp using their software on a bone stock ABA.

[The Big V]

thought i would keep adding to this thread....havent had much time lately but this is the latest--

installed the last BFI/C2 chip....this is a stage 2 chip WITHOUT idle adjustment. ran really nice for first few days. no bucking...rough 850 idle though...just too much vibration with a 276 and hybrid poly mount setup. drove around for a week and even went and got my inspection and passed with no CEL!!! literally ten minutes after my inspection i got a CEL and the car started running even more rough. took it to our garage and scanned it and got a rich code along with the idle adapt 1582 nonsense. car is running too rough and smells fuelly now...BUT THERE IS NO BUCKING AT ALL...SMOOOOTH AS CAN BE WHILE DRIVING......still think gonna switch it back to the previous stage 2 chip with the idle adjustment as the roughness is annoying.

not sure at this point what to do. might go with my last resort of another tuner chip.

[vacuumnoise]

UPDATE

I've had rev hang issues since the BFI stg2 chip swap, but recently I did an oil change to synthetic Liqui-Moly oil (I don't think it was the oil though that corrected it...)

I also replaced my PCV VALVE, and the rev hang is gone!

so, if yr still having issues with rev hang, and yr PCV is old as ****e as mine was, try this out!

[vacuumnoise]

I noticed that this sensor was disconnected since I did my PCV, and the rev hang is relatively "cured", I encourage others to disconnect what I assume to be a manifold pressure sensor, and see how it runs... it might be the secret "cure" to the rev hang issue.

[Fast VW]

That is an IAT sensor. But the rev hang/idle/rich issues seem to be more prevalent when it's colder outside.

[vacuumnoise]

That is an IAT sensor. But the rev hang/idle/rich issues seem to be more prevalent when it's colder outside.

yeh, I checked my bentley when i got home, the intake air temperture sensor... Well since adding the bfi chip I've had the rev hang issue, with that sensor unplugged it doesn't rev hang and my MPG has been better too.. which makes Mr. Vacuumnoise much more

[The Big V]

glad you have found your "cure" vacuumnoise....i am still trying to figure this out.

so far i loosened my Tbelt on the tensioner a tiny bit (started making some noise...idle now improved)....added a USRT motorsport 020 shift linkage setup and put new oem VW gear oil G 060 726 A2 in....decoded SAI via VAGCOM, set idle to 1000rpm via VAGCOM (think i had to set it BEYOND the recommended numbers at something like 138??? i had to use the Cabrio mk3.5 technique a few posts down off of this post - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ed-for-the-ABA ), did a VAGCOM throttle body adaption. since recoding to get rid of SAI the car seems to have the rev hang/rev rise issue returning. other than that i still get the p1742 code or whatever for running RICH. i have not checked plugs in a while but i have put in freshly cleaned/flowed set of used fuel injectors. i need to get a wideband gauge to really see some #'s between cold and warmup and idle and WOT. after a long long (6hr drive) trip the CEL actually disappeared at one point and then before i could check the system while driving around for 30 minutes looking to park the car it came back. car smells a bit fuelly and a bit of smoke occasionally on startup leads me to believe it actually is running a tad rich.

that is all i randomly have to report at this time. i still might go back to an older version of the chip and see if that has any positive effect...its been over 2 months on this latest chip so far.

thanks for keeping this thread alive with updates...

thought i would keep adding to this thread....havent had much time lately but this is the latest--

installed the last BFI/C2 chip....this is a stage 2 chip WITHOUT idle adjustment. ran really nice for first few days. no bucking...rough 850 idle though...just too much vibration with a 276 and hybrid poly mount setup. drove around for a week and even went and got my inspection and passed with no CEL!!! literally ten minutes after my inspection i got a CEL and the car started running even more rough. took it to our garage and scanned it and got a rich code along with the idle adapt 1582 nonsense. car is running too rough and smells fuelly now...BUT THERE IS NO BUCKING AT ALL...SMOOOOTH AS CAN BE WHILE DRIVING......still think gonna switch it back to the previous stage 2 chip with the idle adjustment as the roughness is annoying.

not sure at this point what to do. might go with my last resort of another tuner chip.

[vacuumnoise]

glad you have found your "cure" vacuumnoise....i am still trying to figure this out.

so far i loosened my Tbelt on the tensioner a tiny bit (started making some noise...idle now improved)....added a USRT motorsport 020 shift linkage setup and put new oem VW gear oil G 060 726 A2 in....decoded SAI via VAGCOM, set idle to 1000rpm via VAGCOM (think i had to set it BEYOND the recommended numbers at something like 138??? i had to use the Cabrio mk3.5 technique a few posts down off of this post - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ed-for-the-ABA ), did a VAGCOM throttle body adaption. since recoding to get rid of SAI the car seems to have the rev hang/rev rise issue returning. other than that i still get the p1742 code or whatever for running RICH. i have not checked plugs in a while but i have put in freshly cleaned/flowed set of used fuel injectors. i need to get a wideband gauge to really see some #'s between cold and warmup and idle and WOT. after a long long (6hr drive) trip the CEL actually disappeared at one point and then before i could check the system while driving around for 30 minutes looking to park the car it came back. car smells a bit fuelly and a bit of smoke occasionally on startup leads me to believe it actually is running a tad rich.

that is all i randomly have to report at this time. i still might go back to an older version of the chip and see if that has any positive effect...its been over 2 months on this latest chip so far.

thanks for keeping this thread alive with updates...

headaches... try unplugging yr IAT

I've had a CEL since I installled the chip but to be honest I put a Hello Kitty sticker over it and called it a day... it pulls good, mid 7s 0-60 for an ABA with a 260 cam is good in my book.

[The Big V]

headaches... try unplugging yr IAT

I've had a CEL since I installled the chip but to be honest I put a Hello Kitty sticker over it and called it a day... it pulls good, mid 7s 0-60 for an ABA with a 260 cam is good in my book.

what are your CEL codes???

if you unplug the IAT doesnt the car simply run in cold start mode and just run richer??? i don't think this is the solution i am looking for. i am trying to naturally get everything working properly to have no CEL codes.

has anyone tried running a pre-2003 1.8t mkiv IAT w these chips???? (newer open-element design vs our closed element and possibly heat soaked versions)...

[vacuumnoise]

what are your CEL codes???

if you unplug the IAT doesnt the car simply run in cold start mode and just run richer??? i don't think this is the solution i am looking for. i am trying to naturally get everything working properly to have no CEL codes.

has anyone tried running a pre-2003 1.8t mkiv IAT w these chips???? (newer open-element design vs our closed element and possibly heat soaked versions)...

even with the IAT plugged in, I think I was running a code like "too rich" or something but I havent checked for awhile.. If the IAT unplugged makes it run richer, Im not feeling any negatives from it; as I said the car pullss good and gas mileage is 23-30mpg depending on driving style of course.

I hear you though about wanting it to have no CEL's etc.

[The Big V]

check the codes now...just curious.

i also wonder if the 1.8t pre-2003 mkiv IAT is somewhat common upgrade...any of you n/a ABA guys do this??

even with the IAT plugged in, I think I was running a code like "too rich" or something but I havent checked for awhile.. If the IAT unplugged makes it run richer, Im not feeling any negatives from it; as I said the car pullss good and gas mileage is 23-30mpg depending on driving style of course.

I hear you though about wanting it to have no CEL's etc.

[vacuumnoise]

yeh gotta grab the obd2 scanner

never heard of an IAT upgrade for the ABA, the VR6 benefits tho from that

[Kiyokix]

I've been too busy to mess with this for a while now, but you guys need to figure it out quick so I can benefit from it.

I really wanna get a newer version of these (still have my original one from 2010 sitting in a box in the trunk), plug it in, smile, and go!

I have wondered for a while now if the air temperature had something to do with it just from my own experience, but I've never put any real time into looking at that. I've been running my TT chip for a while now without issues (though it's certainly not as powerful).

Of course I don't have any rich codes or anything like that with the chip, but I put in the 'ol Castle chip a couple months ago and the rich code still shows it's head pretty quickly.

Keep at it guys, wish I had more time to help out. Again my list of stuff done is as follows... (what I remember anyway)

PCV
Injectors (professionally serviced)
Fuel pump
Filters (all)
Plugs
Wires
Coil
O2 sensors
MAF
FPR
TB Adapt (vagcom)
Coolant sensors
Oil sensors
Gaskets (intake, exhaust, etc.)
Vacuum lines
.......crap I can't remember it all, but it's A LOT of searching for an issue that doesn't seem to exist

Kei


(the car runs just fine with any other chip in there, but there MUST be SOMETHING!!!)