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    Thread: A little Space for the Aviation and Space Forum: Why Big Bang/Dark Energy/Dark Matter?

    1. Member FigureFive's Avatar
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      10-07-2011 04:02 PM #1
      This week's Nobel prize announcement got me thinking again about something that has bugged me for a long time. Namely, why aren't we more skeptical of our current theories of the the universe?

      This will be long, most of you will pass. Perhaps those with knowledge and who share my interest in cosmology, theoretical physics and space in general will join in.

      So, Hubble discovers that the universe is expanding, conclusion: everything came from an infinitesimally small point smaller than an atom (?) and blew out into everything we see now in the Big Bang. Seems like a stretch but it's pretty much settled these days that that's how things started.

      Using the observed expansion we measure back and deduce the universe is on the order of 13 billion years old, give or take. However, we discover structures in the universe that couldn't have formed in that time and appear to be much older. To fix that inconsistency we come up with inflation - for a brief moment soon after the Big Bang things expanded much faster than previously thought and then slowed down to the rate Hubble observed.

      When we discover galaxies and acquire the technology to observe their rotation we find that the outer edges more faster than they should for the amount of observable matter in apparent violation of General Relativity's description of gravity. To fix that inconsistency we come up with dark matter to provide an infusion of gravity and account for the observed motion. For dark matter to be the explanation it has to account for something like 83% of the matter in the universe. Meaning that everything we see - you, me, stars, planets, dust, nebulae, etc. is a miniscule 17% of all the "stuff" in the universe. There is more out there that we can't see than we can.

      Now, we've determined that rather than slowing due to gravity the universe's expansion is actually speeding up. We've come up with dark energy to explain that, and for it to fit with observation it has to account for something like 73% of the mass-energy out there. Again the energy we can directly observe and measure is miniscule compared to the stuff we can only deduce by observation.

      It feels to me like we're inventing things to fit our observations akin to how we stuck to the idea of an earth centered system for so long:

      The sun, moon and stars appeared to move around our seemingly still earth, so we concluded earth is at the center and everything orbits in in perfect circles.

      Then we found some stars move in retrograde and named them the "wanderers" - planetos in Greek, now planets. Instead of rethinking the original earth-centered idea the first instinct was to come up with a theory that allowed the earth to remain at the center while explaining the observed planetary motion and we got epicycles - the planets must move in little circles while orbiting the earth.

      When the first detailed measurements showed that the motions weren't perfect circles we just added epicycles to epicycles to make the idea fit the observation.

      Then we discovered moons orbiting some of those planets, proof that things can orbit something other than the earth. However the insistence on an earth-centric system remained even though there was a much cleaner heliocentric system out there - put the sun at the center and make the orbits eccentric rather than circular and all those little epicycles go away.

      I get that the Church was primary force perpetuating the earth centered system because it played into its theology and enabled it to maintain dominance. Without the Church we may have settled upon the heliocentric system centuries or millennia earlier (I believe a number of ancient civilizations grasped the concept).

      I feel like we're in a similar position now. We've become so wedded to our current understanding (Big Bang, General Relativity, etc). that we keep bending over backwards to come up with outlandish ideas when our observations don't fit what the theories predict. I feel like there must be a simpler explanation out there.

      I've heard of plasma cosmology which suggests a lot of the motion and structure we observe in the universe can be explained if the universe is even bigger and older than we think and not born of a big bang. What other scientific theories have you encountered out of the mainstream that seem to have a decent argument? I'd love to read up on them.

    2. 10-07-2011 05:03 PM #2
      Gen. 1:1. But don't stop there.
      Turn the heat OFF!

    3. Member FigureFive's Avatar
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      10-07-2011 05:17 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by 32176G60 View Post
      Gen. 1:1. But don't stop there.
      Yeah, been there. I'm talking science here, not mythology, which is all religion really is.

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      10-07-2011 07:37 PM #4
      This makes me laugh,

      Just a few days ago in my chemistry class I made a comment to the teacher about the stuff we were learning. I said to her, how do we know that, an electron for instance, is this dense, or this wide. To me it seemed like just because a few guys a couple hundred years ago claimed this is what it is, no one challenged it!! I'm not saying they're wrong because i'm sure there is math and stuff to back it up but, it just cause Mr. Smith said this 500 years ago doesn't mean it was right. Even if he did back it up it could be wrong. I know theres a quote from stephen hawking about everything he learned. he claimed that everything he knows could be wrong, but its just his opinion.
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      10-07-2011 08:46 PM #5
      Everybody knows that there's something wrong and/or missing with our current understanding of the universe.

      The thing is that the way we currently explain it answers a lot of questions and allows us to do a lot of things that we otherwise wouldn't be able to do. So, you can't just go and throw out the current theories until something better comes along....that something better has to come FIRST, and then we can throw out (or more likely, modify) the old theories.

      Yeah there might be a lot of guesses floating around out there that at first glance might sound plausible, but until one comes along that is actually better at explaining what is going on, and passes as many tests and experiments and attempts at dismembering it, the old theories will continue to stay.

      And rightfully so.

      As for what we know about the electron and the universe as a whole, every day scientists are paid huge sums of money to run immensely expensive experiments (such as the Large Hadron Collider) in attempts at DISPROVING its "density" or its "width" or anything else that we think we know about it. And, until they can do so, what we think we know about it will continue to be taught in chemistry class.

      And rightfully so.

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      10-09-2011 07:02 PM #6
      OP: I think you would benefit (and enjoy) taking some higher level science classes at your local institute of higher learning. Once you go through the scientific method several times you will learn that nothing in science is ever proven, it's just that up until the point, nothing has falsified it. Also, you will see that the scientific method is a never ending cycle. Once a conclusion is produced, whether it finds the hypo true or false, it (the conclusion findings) get re-fed into the system and obserations begin the entire cycle over again. Just because something is generally accepted by society, doesn't mean there aren't groups of scientists out there trying to falsify ideas. The advancement of technology makes it so that scientists know that when an idea is either found true OR false, technology tomorrow could provide different results and data.
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    7. 10-10-2011 04:50 AM #7
      You're too smart for your own good. You're scratching at inherent problems in the scientific method, no matter what it is applied to. I've thought a lot about those things as well and basically I think science is over-awed these days. I don't think science is bad, it's just easy for the mainstream to perpetuate since it technically isn't very controversial as it is "hard science". But later an article will be run refuting that which was previously stated. Like they just announced that new research shows PSA exams do nothing to prevent prostate cancer... going so much against what was stated for years. And maybe later they'll say it does help again.

      Even Einstein has been "proven wrong" many times, most largely that he didn't believe in quantum mechanics. And as you've probably heard the speed of light being the speed limit of all the cosmos has recently been called into question, which basically calls into question everything Einstein ever did. He wasn't wrong, he just didn't go all the way and he probably knew that himself.

      The Unabomber, in his manifesto, wrote basically that all scientists are doing is pursuing their own ego's, and doing vastly less than it seems to help society. Take it as you will, he was crazy but he was very smart.


      I wonder if science will somehow become what the Church once was... not exactly what it was but something like it. And then a new age of what? I dunno.

      -Rob
      Last edited by robw_z; 10-10-2011 at 04:55 AM.

    8. 10-10-2011 11:55 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by FigureFive View Post
      I feel like there must be a simpler explanation out there.
      There is: At no point in the continuum of the universe will anyone ever truly understand the universe. To wit, acceptance of ignorance is the first step to enlightenment.

      Quote Originally Posted by FigureFive View Post
      ...why aren't we more skeptical of our current theories of the the universe?
      In the higher scientific community, dissent is actually very much opposed and stifled. Make no mistake, egos of devout men are not easily dissuaded.

      In the end, the actual content of scientific discussion is really much less important than the simple existence of discussion.

    9. Member DonL's Avatar
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      10-12-2011 01:03 PM #9
      I see the OP's point in questioning. Sometimes it does seem like people are just making crap up to explain away their own failings at scientific discovery.
      It seems the government is currently saying, "While we're conducting this unspecified, unwarranted surveillance, we're totally thinking about how to not violate the 4th Amendment that we're currently violating. Because terrorism."

    10. 10-12-2011 03:34 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by KrautFed View Post
      . . .nothing in science is ever proven, it's just that up until the point, nothing has falsified it. . . .
      But I think that's the OP's point. The discovery that the universe's expansion is accelerating would seem to falsify the current "big bang" theory, yet physicists have gone through some pretty specacular theoretical contortions to make the data fit the model. To me, the concept of dark matter and dark energy doesn't seem any different than the "aether" that scientists had invented until Einstein came along:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories

      There's no doubt that Einstein came up with some pretty useful equations, but that doesn't mean that all of his conclusions were correct. Hopefully, the recent CERN experiments will be confirmed and we can start introducing some fresh thinking to the subject.

      For the record, I've always had trouble accepting general relativity. Assuming someone has sufficient mathmatical knowledge, you can teach him the core concepts of Newtonian physics in a couple of hours. Quantum physics takes a little longer, but still makes some intuitive sense. However, I made it all the way through a BS in engineering without meeting a single person who claims that they can truly wrap their head around relativity.

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      10-12-2011 05:26 PM #11
      With science you have to have a "theory" before you can try and prove it and that's all "dark matter" and the like are "theories". Yes they're away to make the "facts" (as known) fit the science, that's why the scientists have come up with them. They then argue and experiment around that theory until they reach a conclusion that they can all accept, which then stands until it's proven incorrect.

      Black holes are a prime example. Stephan Hawking did some calculations that led him to the "theory" that there were black holes, but he couldn't prove it at the time. When a colleague believed he had the "proof" of that theory Hawking actually bet (a year's subscription to Penthouse or Playboy I think) against himself and said he was wrong (he said that way he was on a winner all round, if he WAS right then that was great and if was WRONG he'd get a years sub to a girly mag !!). Anyway, I digress, the colleague HAD found proof and now general science accepts black holes as fact.

      This doesn't mean of course that sometime in the future somebody else won't come up with another theory and try and "disprove" black holes using more up to date methods etc.

      So, I'm basically saying that science is FULL of theories of why something that has been discovered could be happening. This is where science is at its best, investigating those theories and attempting to prove or disprove them.

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    12. Member DonL's Avatar
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      10-12-2011 08:47 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by gr8shandini View Post
      ... yet physicists have gone through some pretty specacular theoretical contortions to make the data fit the model...
      Frankly, I think they're making the model fit the data, but that's JMO.
      It seems the government is currently saying, "While we're conducting this unspecified, unwarranted surveillance, we're totally thinking about how to not violate the 4th Amendment that we're currently violating. Because terrorism."

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      10-12-2011 08:51 PM #13
      While we're on the subject:

      A Higgs boson walks into a church. One parishioner whispers to another, "What's he doing here?" The second parishioner whispers back, "you know we can't have mass without him."
      It seems the government is currently saying, "While we're conducting this unspecified, unwarranted surveillance, we're totally thinking about how to not violate the 4th Amendment that we're currently violating. Because terrorism."

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      10-13-2011 04:32 PM #14
      This one from myTiguan forum today is VERY topical I think



      The barman replies: "Sorry but we don't serve particles faster than light."

      A neutrino walks into a bar
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    15. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-20-2011 07:28 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by gr8shandini View Post
      But I think that's the OP's point. The discovery that the universe's expansion is accelerating would seem to falsify the current "big bang" theory, yet physicists have gone through some pretty specacular theoretical contortions to make the data fit the model. To me, the concept of dark matter and dark energy doesn't seem any different than the "aether" that scientists had invented until Einstein came along:


      There's no doubt that Einstein came up with some pretty useful equations, but that doesn't mean that all of his conclusions were correct. Hopefully, the recent CERN experiments will be confirmed and we can start introducing some fresh thinking to the subject.

      For the record, I've always had trouble accepting general relativity. Assuming someone has sufficient mathmatical knowledge, you can teach him the core concepts of Newtonian physics in a couple of hours. Quantum physics takes a little longer, but still makes some intuitive sense. However, I made it all the way through a BS in engineering without meeting a single person who claims that they can truly wrap their head around relativity.

      - an accelerating universe is consistent with empty space having a property - same as Einstein alluded to, even though he did for the wrong reasons...

      - show me a measurement that contradicts either Einstein's special or general theory of relativity. There are tens of thousands that conform, including the GPS device you use every day.

      - in science, a "theory" is a coherent set of ideas (hypotheses) that have shown to be consistent and have a long history of not been disproven. A "theory" in science is what a lay person would call a law, or a "given." Nomenclature is different here, between science and the ROW.

      - general relativity is not that difficult to "wrap your head around" if you actually understand quantum mechanics. I think it is easier both conceptually and mathematically. It is not that difficult to calculate the metric of a rotating body, compared to the intricacies of quantum-mechanically interacting bodies...

    16. 10-20-2011 09:11 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      - an accelerating universe is consistent with empty space having a property - same as Einstein alluded to, even though he did for the wrong reasons...

      - show me a measurement that contradicts either Einstein's special or general theory of relativity. There are tens of thousands that conform, including the GPS device you use every day.

      - in science, a "theory" is a coherent set of ideas (hypotheses) that have shown to be consistent and have a long history of not been disproven. A "theory" in science is what a lay person would call a law, or a "given." Nomenclature is different here, between science and the ROW.

      - general relativity is not that difficult to "wrap your head around" if you actually understand quantum mechanics. I think it is easier both conceptually and mathematically. It is not that difficult to calculate the metric of a rotating body, compared to the intricacies of quantum-mechanically interacting bodies...
      I never said that relativistic equations weren't useful. In fact, I was going to cite GPS as an example. However, I have some real trouble understanding some of the basic tenents of relativity. Perhaps it's just my inferior mental capacity, but I just don't understand how the speed of light can be the same in all reference frames, how there can be more than 3 mutually orthoganal directions, and how nothing can travel faster than light.

      On the last note, here is one recent example of a measurement (albeit as yet unconfirmed) that contradicts the current theory:

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...78L4FH20110922

      As for your third bullet, the history of science is littered with disproven theories, even long-standing ones. If they were treated by everyone as a "given" we could have no progress. That's kind of what I was alluding to. Einstein is celebrated because he re-imagined the physical world. However, it seems that anyone who thinks that he might have got some of it wrong is treated as some sort of crackpot flat-earther.

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      10-26-2011 03:29 AM #17
      I just wanted to emphasize that the word "theory" is used differently in science than in common parlance. It has a meaning similar to "law" or "given," since when you do everyday-science, you simply use these "theories" and don't try to continuously re-invent the wheel. The only exception is when you either specifically design experiments to see if an element of a theory can be proven wrong, or if you have experimental evidence that might contradict a theory, when you do calculations to check that, or try to come up with something better on the theoretical side. Daily science would not be doable if scientists would spend their entire day questioning everything over and over again. But make no mistake: many scientist are very vigilant and careful and don't take anything for granted if they see a problem, or something unusual, or simply can't explain something, or have a "gut" feeling something is wrong or inconsistent. There is a proper place for both attitudes. But, yes, at times it takes a generation (or fraction thereof) to convince the scientific community. And some areas are more notorious for a "conservative attitude" (geology, biology, anthropology, medicine) than others (math, physics, astrophysics). IMO.

      When a bunch of ideas have come together and seem to make sense and seem useful and have stood up against immediate and obvious checks and scrutiny, they are called a hypothesis in science. They only become a theory if together they form a greater picture and have been reasonably well tested (although the latter may mean: they by definition conform to all previous tests of the old theory, but now also include some other, higher principles and perhaps explain just a couple of known shortcomings).

      Also, in most cases it is not that a theory is disproven entirely, but it turns out that the theory is only an approximation that does not work in certain circumstances and thus needs either some improvement, or sometimes a complete overhaul. An example of the latter is general relativity (GR). Newton's theory of gravitation actually works very well even in astrophysics much of the time (for example, to find out that there must be additional mass because of the motion of stars in clusters, or the above-mentioned rotational speed profile of galaxies). You don't need GR for that. But when the masses become large, or for high accuracy (Mercury's orbit, light deflection around the sun, GPS, etc.), you do need it. The amazing thing is that Einstein came up with GR before anyone seriously thought there was anything wrong with Newton, and before there was a significant inkling from the data.

      Instead, he realized Newton's theory was simply inconsistent with theoretical principles (e.g., there shouldn't be instantaneous action at a distance). He also realized that if gravitational mass and inertial mass are identical, then the gravitational force is not a force at all, but an acceleration (because the mass cancels). Going from there, you can immediately see that you can't distinguish gravitational action from acceleration of another kind (e.g., sitting in a space ship), and all that was the start of the realization that gravitation should and could be described with a geometrical approach within space-time. Yet, you can calculate GR in the limit of small acceleration (gravitational potential) and small speed, and what comes out of that? Of course: Newton's theory.

      For the above reasons (and many more), GR is one of the most "beautiful" theories ever constructed. Yet, we know it is wrong. Wrong in the same sense that Newton was wrong. That is, it is from its basic assumptions and its construction very simple and straightforward (albeit mathematically somewhat involved) and works almost everywhere - but does not work as is at and below the Planck scale. Unfortunately, again we are not lucky enough to have experiments at this scale at this time, so it will take another Einstein to develop a more general theory just from principles rather than from experimental guidance.

      As to the CERN neutrino measurements, even the involved scientists are extremely cautious about it. Perhaps there is still a small error within the tens of timings that needed to be calculated just right (did someone substitute a longer Ethernet cable between connections after one failed?). On the other hand, there is of course the possibility that neutrinos because of their low mass, high speed, and flavor-changing open an unpredicted and not-previously-conceived window between the (as of yet) incompatible quantum and gravitational world views.
      Last edited by feels_road; 12-17-2011 at 02:11 AM.

    18. Member DSG-TDI's Avatar
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      10-31-2011 12:19 PM #18
      I always liked this Asimov short story on creation:

      http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html
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      02-23-2012 11:47 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      As to the CERN neutrino measurements, even the involved scientists are extremely cautious about it. Perhaps there is still a small error within the tens of timings that needed to be calculated just right (did someone substitute a longer Ethernet cable between connections after one failed?).
      In German:

      http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/arti...och-recht.html

      "Ein defektes Glasfaserkabel und ein GPS-Gerät könnten Ursache für den Messfehler sein."

      Else:

      http://io9.com/5887601/cern-and-oper...rino-readings/

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...81L2B820120222
      Last edited by feels_road; 02-23-2012 at 11:55 AM.

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      02-23-2012 12:53 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      As to the CERN neutrino measurements... (did someone substitute a longer Ethernet cable between connections after one failed?)...
      That's pretty damned funny. Skepticism pays off there, feels-road.
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      02-23-2012 02:42 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      In German:

      http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/arti...och-recht.html

      "Ein defektes Glasfaserkabel und ein GPS-Gerät könnten Ursache für den Messfehler sein."

      Else:

      http://io9.com/5887601/cern-and-oper...rino-readings/

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...81L2B820120222
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      02-24-2012 03:16 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Imaslipper View Post
      We've had a German speaker in here this whole time and I haven't had a clue!?
      Viele Männer. Meisten bleiben im OT.

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      02-24-2012 05:50 AM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      Ganz überascht hier. Ein unglaublisch Fehler (für die Schweiz!).
      Naja, um die Vorurteile noch ein bißchen aufzuheizen: das Kabelproblem liegt im Italienischen Teil des Experimentes...

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      02-24-2012 06:58 AM #24
      Sehr gut! Ach, ich spreche nur ein bisschen, weil ich in der schule es habe. Entschuldigung für mein Grammatik :/
      See, decide, attack, reverse.

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      02-27-2012 07:59 PM #25
      I kinda want to comment on this, but not sure if my point will make sense lol
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      02-27-2012 08:07 PM #26
      geh für es!
      See, decide, attack, reverse.

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      02-28-2012 03:00 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Imaslipper View Post
      geh für es!
      Yeah, walk for it! Oops.

      It is actually quite interesting how often we use idioms without realizing it. And of course, in most cases, idioms can't be translated, literally - although there are often similar expressions in the other language.

      More on topic, although only slightly, in German you can tell the joke that if at the University in Göttingen, make sure to visit Hilbert's Raum*. That is because the word for (outer) space/ the space in space-time (Weltraum, Raum-Zeit) and "office space" (Raum = room; but also Zimmer) are the same.

      /nerd

      (*) More precisely, the joke tries to suggest the notion that one should not miss den Hilbert Raum because it is such a grandiose auditorium.
      Last edited by feels_road; 02-28-2012 at 03:44 AM.

    28. Member Imaslipper's Avatar
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      02-28-2012 06:59 AM #28
      How would you translate go for it then!?! Or isn't there one like American catch phrases in some marketing advertisements?
      See, decide, attack, reverse.

      -- Major Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, Luftwaffe.

      Hilfe! Mein käse ist heiß, und mein Flugzeug brennt!

    29. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      02-28-2012 07:13 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Imaslipper View Post
      How would you translate go for it then!?! Or isn't there one like American catch phrases in some marketing advertisements?
      Jetzt aber! Verfolge es! Nun drauf! Los, jetzt! Mach schon! Gell, wird schon! Scheu Dich nicht! etc.....

    30. Member Imaslipper's Avatar
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      02-28-2012 01:40 PM #30
      Okay! I have have 3 years of High School German under my belt haha. Entschuldigung für meine Detusch.
      See, decide, attack, reverse.

      -- Major Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, Luftwaffe.

      Hilfe! Mein käse ist heiß, und mein Flugzeug brennt!

    31. Member Geekengineer's Avatar
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      02-28-2012 03:35 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by Imaslipper View Post
      Okay! I have have 3 years of High School German under my belt haha. Entschuldigung für meine Detusch.

      ACHTUNG! ALLES LOOKENSPEEPERS! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.


      (apologies, I couldn't resist)

      Okay, I only had zwei jahre in high school. I enjoyed it, but did not take any classes in college. I should have continued.
      "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick
      "Clamo, clamatis, omnes clamamus pro glace lactis!" - me
      "I'm an engineer - impossible just takes a little longer." - some guy on the interwebnetz

    32. Member Imaslipper's Avatar
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      02-28-2012 03:53 PM #32
      hehehe the Blinkenlichten haah i've never done that
      See, decide, attack, reverse.

      -- Major Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, Luftwaffe.

      Hilfe! Mein käse ist heiß, und mein Flugzeug brennt!

    33. Member Geekengineer's Avatar
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      02-28-2012 06:14 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by Imaslipper View Post
      hehehe the Blinkenlichten haah i've never done that
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights

      My favorite: "... UND VATCH DAS STOFFA KUMOUDT."

      "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick
      "Clamo, clamatis, omnes clamamus pro glace lactis!" - me
      "I'm an engineer - impossible just takes a little longer." - some guy on the interwebnetz

    34. Member Geekengineer's Avatar
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      02-28-2012 06:17 PM #34
      More on topic... this video freaks me out. The idea that every single electron in the universe is in harmony with every other electron in the universe... ugh, my head, it splodes!

      "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick
      "Clamo, clamatis, omnes clamamus pro glace lactis!" - me
      "I'm an engineer - impossible just takes a little longer." - some guy on the interwebnetz

    35. Member Imaslipper's Avatar
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      02-28-2012 07:30 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Geekengineer View Post
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights

      My favorite: "... UND VATCH DAS STOFFA KUMOUDT."

      See, decide, attack, reverse.

      -- Major Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, Luftwaffe.

      Hilfe! Mein käse ist heiß, und mein Flugzeug brennt!

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