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    Thread: supercharged 2.5l

    1. Member dhenry's Avatar
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      10-17-2011 10:01 PM #1
      OG thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...harger-system.

      updated 5/24/13

      page 33
      mldouthi's car dynoed at C2 motorsports
      s/c has a 3 inch pulley and put out
      255whp & 223wtq


      sowo

      P1040234 by dhenr012, on Flickr



      page 31
      Quote Originally Posted by mldouthi View Post




      Quote Originally Posted by mldouthi View Post
      First Start!!




      first drive
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      Last edited by dhenry; 05-24-2013 at 12:19 PM.

    2. Member H3LVTCA's Avatar
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      10-17-2011 10:22 PM #2
      Wishful thinking...
      Quote Originally Posted by TrillyPop View Post
      The 2.5L forum is full of high hopes and huge disappointment.
      MKV Rabbit Dyno Thread
      MKIII Cabrio Build Thread

    3. Member thygreyt's Avatar
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      10-17-2011 10:25 PM #3
      forgive my ignorance, but all pulleys run based on the crank pulley, right?

    4. Member mmrabbit's Avatar
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      10-17-2011 10:59 PM #4
      Subscribed!!!

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      10-17-2011 11:23 PM #5
      Would love to see one of these come into existence for us, but our biggest limiting factor is space and accessibility to those pulleys. NLS has an idea they think will work, but someone needs to have a minimum $6-8k for a one off kit...

      Me want one real bad.

    6. Member eatrach's Avatar
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      10-17-2011 11:52 PM #6
      go turbo-cheaper and better HP numbers.

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      10-18-2011 12:27 AM #7
      Yes. But I love super. For me, if I couldn't super, I'm stayin NA.

    8. 10-18-2011 04:16 AM #8
      Horrible idea. The stage 2 24v vr6 super charger kits only make 250whp. I'll take 250whp with a small, properly sized, daily driven turbo setup, than a horrible super charger. I'd rather spend the $$$ to go all motor as well, since the super charger setup won't be any faster and will sound like a blender.

      Super chargers are an exercise in futility. There is no reason to choose one over a turbo in aftermarket applications.
      Last edited by tchilds; 10-18-2011 at 04:20 AM.

    9. Member Stg3G60's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 08:47 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by tchilds View Post

      Super chargers are an exercise in futility. There is no reason to choose one over a turbo in aftermarket applications.
      Really? so why do top fuel dragsters use superchargers?

      I personally would rather have a SC than a turbo, I think it sounds better, there is aboslutely no lag, and I like the way that it works off pulleys rather than the exhaust. Sometimes turbos are cheaper, sometimes not, it depends on the car. It all comes down to personal opinion really, the debate of sc vs. turbo will go on for ever. To each his own.

    10. Member mldouthi's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 10:38 AM #10
      Im going to give it a go.


      I just picked up a M62 off a cobalt. I read through that thread from a while ago. Any help will be appreciated. And help does not consist of saying it wont work, or saying just use a turbo

      Some help I would like is:
      -sizing the pulley,
      -a dxf of the intake flange, C2 said they would sell me there already made flange thats on there sri, but I havent gotten a response in a couple days, therefore I might have to make my own.
      -C2 also said they would do the software, again no response in a couple days on pricing and what not.

      Space will not be an use, because the hood is only metal and I have cutting tools.... if the s/c doesnt fit.

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      10-18-2011 10:43 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Stg3G60 View Post
      Really? so why do top fuel dragsters use superchargers?

      I personally would rather have a SC than a turbo, I think it sounds better, there is aboslutely no lag, and I like the way that it works off pulleys rather than the exhaust. Sometimes turbos are cheaper, sometimes not, it depends on the car. It all comes down to personal opinion really, the debate of sc vs. turbo will go on for ever. To each his own.
      Top fuel dragsters use it because it gives INSTANT power.... and when you are running sub 5 seconds it matters a lot. To get a turbo to make that much power it will take a long time to spool even though they have large displacements. It takes about 900hp to spin the supercharger and they produce anywhere form 8,000hp-10,000hp runing 50-70 psi. Try and get that from a turbo... Even if you could use like brake booster, it's just not feasible.

      Now as for other cars really it is up to personal choice. Turbo is naturally more efficient as it takes waited energy from the engine that normally would be (for lack of a better term) thrown away. Unlike the supercharger the turbo does not need to take power to spin it. A supercharger can take up to 20% of the engines power simply to spin it. But one advantage is that you have power instantly. unlike turbo you need to wait for it to spool (unless they are small but there is always going to be a delay). From what i've seen and please correct me if i'm wrong, typically a supercharger kit is more expensive than a turbo (only because a supercharger is inherently more expensive) I do love the sound of the turbo spooling but the wine of the supercharger is also awesome. I hope this helps some.

    12. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 11:53 AM #12
      Im considering jumping ship from the Rabbit to the 3.6l Genesis, and putting a blower on it.

      Idk to me this just looks soo much better than a Mkv and puts down 301whp stock, with header, exhaust, tune and larger tb 360whp, and a company makes a 5k$ blower kit that makes over 500whp and it sounds mean as hell
      Last edited by kevin splits; 10-18-2011 at 11:56 AM.
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    13. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 12:13 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by mldouthi View Post
      Im going to give it a go.


      I just picked up a M62 off a cobalt. I read through that thread from a while ago. Any help will be appreciated. And help does not consist of saying it wont work, or saying just use a turbo

      Some help I would like is:
      -sizing the pulley,
      -a dxf of the intake flange, C2 said they would sell me there already made flange thats on there sri, but I havent gotten a response in a couple days, therefore I might have to make my own.
      -C2 also said they would do the software, again no response in a couple days on pricing and what not.

      Space will not be an use, because the hood is only metal and I have cutting tools.... if the s/c doesnt fit.
      Im in for the results. Im getting severely bored with the Rabbit, with it being n/a and all the bs that goes into turbo'n these things to make real power, already did it once and wont do it again. If I keep it I want to do something unique, so let me know when you get the price of the flange, as I may do this along with you
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
      2008 Mkv-sold; 2003 yellow SRT-4-sold; 2009 G8 GT-sold; 1991 Talon TSI- fully built, HTA3582@30psi 600+awhp(900+awhp rebuild in progress)

    14. Member mldouthi's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 12:27 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by kevin FaKiN spLits View Post
      Im in for the results. Im getting severely bored with the Rabbit, with it being n/a and all the bs that goes into turbo'n these things to make real power, already did it once and wont do it again. If I keep it I want to do something unique, so let me know when you get the price of the flange, as I may do this along with you
      The guys from C2 just messaged me. $299 for the flange.

      I think its a great price, Thats probably close to what it would cost me to buy the material and have someone cut it with a cnc machine. Let alone all the time to get the dims right.

      C2

    15. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 12:34 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by mldouthi View Post
      The guys from C2 just messaged me. $299 for the flange.

      I think its a great price, Thats probably close to what it would cost me to buy the material and have someone cut it with a cnc machine. Let alone all the time to get the dims right.

      C2
      Ok. I think Im going to do this as well. Can you take measurements of the bottom opening of that m62. The only thing Im concerned with is the size of the base where this think will mount... bringing all 5 flanges to lets say a box where this thing will bolt up. Then Im worried about the even spread of forced air going to each cylinder.

      So yea just the measurements of this base:
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
      2008 Mkv-sold; 2003 yellow SRT-4-sold; 2009 G8 GT-sold; 1991 Talon TSI- fully built, HTA3582@30psi 600+awhp(900+awhp rebuild in progress)

    16. Member mldouthi's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 12:59 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by kevin FaKiN spLits View Post
      Ok. I think Im going to do this as well. Can you take measurements of the bottom opening of that m62. The only thing Im concerned with is the size of the base where this think will mount... bringing all 5 flanges to lets say a box where this thing will bolt up. Then Im worried about the even spread of forced air going to each cylinder.

      So yea just the measurements of this base:
      [IMG][/IMG]
      The opening is 3.93" x 4.285"

      The over all width is 8.25" incliding the mounting holes, and around 22" overall length not including the pulley.

      Is that what you were asking for?

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      10-18-2011 01:03 PM #17
      the RIGHT sc setup WILL work great. and can make power

      again, we will do it if someone wishes to step up
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    18. 10-18-2011 01:07 PM #18
      Yeah sry didn't mean to start a debate. Its not really debatable as its just preference. My point was every super charger setup that isn't pretty much stock is too expensive or too much hassle to set up relative to turbo setups.

      Its still a really cool concept and the low end is awesome. It basically turns your i5 into an i8 because they provide such a great linear power curve. They are fun for daily drivers and a great concept on any motor designed for them.

      The screw type super chargers give AMAZING torque down low, the centrifugal i'm not a huge fan of though and would definitely take a turbo over any day.

      When I look at the inline five and think super charger, all I see is belt slip belt slip belt slip. That's the main reason I don't believe in this project. If you guys can get one to pump 15psi or so and not slip or leak all over everything, please by all means DO IT. Its about time we had a decent supercharged vw around here. The last supercharger setups I remember were on vr6 motors and basically made the R's slower in the quarter, and have yet to make more than 250whp on the gti's.

      VF was going to release stage 3 and 4 super charger kits, supposedly larry had one running 450whp or something like that (prototype) but then they just kinda gave up. Never went past stage 2 and ended in broken promises.
      Last edited by tchilds; 10-18-2011 at 01:12 PM.

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      10-18-2011 01:10 PM #19
      if it's spec'd out and built right...it can be great
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    20. Member ENRGZR's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 01:26 PM #20
      Josh knows what he is doing. I really wish I had the funds, and lived in Mainland USA. It's always one or the other that stops me.
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      edit. wow I fail. Im going to leave that there to remind myself not to do math.

    21. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 01:44 PM #21
      Yes those are what I was looking for. Another thing is going to to be pulley size, that m92 pulley would produce 19 psi on our motor at redline, blowing the stock rods most likely, The Cobalt charger is a good idea, as its a self contained oil system, so no oil plumbing, but with that comes high heat, So I would recommend one of those oval inline awics, Mldouthi if your seriously going to attempt this I will follow not too far behind, but I will most likely wait till you are at the tuning stage before I drop 1k, on just the hardware to find at some point it wont work. If it doesnt work Genesis here I come
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
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    22. Member LampyB's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 02:35 PM #22
      aren't the supercharged MKIV R32's supposedly known for being highly unreliable? i've heard it mentioned several times that the turbo'd R is a fantastic car, but the SC'd R is a massive money pit...
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    23. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 03:49 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by LampyB View Post
      aren't the supercharged MKIV R32's supposedly known for being highly unreliable? i've heard it mentioned several times that the turbo'd R is a fantastic car, but the SC'd R is a massive money pit...
      Yea it is.

      Where the other two have failed because of lack of room, all we need to figure out is the belt situation, and pulley size ~4". Now like on the Genesis they make a custom intake manifold that the outlet of the charger just bolts up to the intake manifold and the throttle body gets moved to the inlet of the charger like this:


      We can move the vacuum sensor to a custom tb spacer between the charger, and tb which then should only read vacuum and no positive boost levels. Then just run one of these. If that doesnt help keep the intake temps down during a 3rd gear pull, implement in a water meth setup to the intake manifold. I know it doesnt sound normal, but the others failed because they tried to make a plumbed setup with a outlet pipe routing to a ic then to the tb in the stock location.
      They are making pretty decent power on the 3.8l Genesis running a setup similar to what I described.

      Heres a vid:
      I guess it makes 53tq lol
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
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    24. Member tay272's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 04:00 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by kevin FaKiN spLits View Post
      If it doesnt work Genesis here I come
      DONT DO ITTT!!! Just cause Hyundai started slapping turbos on all their engines and finally made a V8 engine doesnt mean that they are good engines. In my book, Hyundais are still junk cars even if they are faster then most of our VWs. If your gonna get ditch the Rabbit, please dont go buy a Hyundai hahaha. If you really want one tho then your not gonna listen to me, just my opinion on the matter and Im sure others are with me on that one.
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    25. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 04:14 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by tay272 View Post
      DONT DO ITTT!!! Just cause Hyundai started slapping turbos on all their engines and finally made a V8 engine doesnt mean that they are good engines. In my book, Hyundais are still junk cars even if they are faster then most of our VWs. If your gonna get ditch the Rabbit, please dont go buy a Hyundai hahaha. If you really want one tho then your not gonna listen to me, just my opinion on the matter and Im sure others are with me on that one.
      Well the v6 is a great motor, the 2.0t is said to be better than VW's so... Idk man I test drove one last month, the Genesis 3.8 R spec, and I love it, Brembo brakes, I find alot of VW interior similarities as well. That sc kit is 5k and for two more you get rods and pistons, as well as intercooling, making over 500whp and similar tq. The stage 1 in the video above puts out 430whp, 353tq. I kinda made it my permanant ship jump car as that stanced Genesis I posted above gives me a boner
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
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    26. Member tay272's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 04:23 PM #26
      Well thats just me, theres a few cars I will never drive or own. Hyundais being one of those. If thats your preference then by all means go for it. I just think there are much better cars out there that you should go for if your ditching the Rabbit thats all. At least stick with the Euros man, Comonnnn .
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    27. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 04:55 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by tay272 View Post
      Well thats just me, theres a few cars I will never drive or own. Hyundais being one of those. If thats your preference then by all means go for it. I just think there are much better cars out there that you should go for if your ditching the Rabbit thats all. At least stick with the Euros man, Comonnnn .
      I can make this look more "Euro" than most "Euro's" I see on here! LOL Shaven, bag it, stretched wide wheels, yellow fogs, Porsche barracuda seats, that I read bolt right in the Genesis, and shave the bay. Dont worry no decision will be made untill I get to td a Golf R

      But no Id really like a CTS-V coupe
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
      2008 Mkv-sold; 2003 yellow SRT-4-sold; 2009 G8 GT-sold; 1991 Talon TSI- fully built, HTA3582@30psi 600+awhp(900+awhp rebuild in progress)

    28. Member mldouthi's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 06:33 PM #28
      For the ic, I was thinking more along the lines of this. But cut the ends off and weld this 9.75x35x35 core to the s/c flange.

      http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...180609d5f69a27

      and if that wont work, run one of these in where a normal short ram filter would go and run the filter down to the front left vent.

      http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...180609d5f69a27

      I will start modeling this stuff up tomorrow. If anyone knows where I can get a M62 cad model that would save me a bunch of time.

    29. Member mldouthi's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 06:51 PM #29
      I just check the space under the hood where the intake manifold is.

      Measuring from the front 2 engine cover "pegs" the left peg (as you are standing in front of the car) you have 4.5 inches above that point to the hood support. and on the right peg there is 5.5 inches to the hood sheet.

      With looking at the intake dims (11.5" {front to back} x 8" {bottom to top}). We/I will have 11.5" FB x 12" BT. and the super charger is 8.25"x 5.5". There definitely seems like room.


      Anyone with more knowledge than me know if there would be a problem with welding a second pulley on to the alternator pulley?

      Something like this. (ms paint )
      Blue = welded on
      Red = stock alternator pulley
      Black = alternator


    30. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 06:53 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by mldouthi View Post
      For the ic, I was thinking more along the lines of this. But cut the ends off and weld this 9.75x35x35 core to the s/c flange.

      http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...180609d5f69a27

      and if that wont work, run one of these in where a normal short ram filter would go and run the filter down to the front left vent.

      http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...180609d5f69a27

      I will start modeling this stuff up tomorrow. If anyone knows where I can get a M62 cad model that would save me a bunch of time.
      How are you going to mount it, and what are you going to do in terms of mating it to the intake manifold? Something similar to what was done with the Genesis SC kit? I think thats what I may do... Make a manifold with a box similar to HEP's intake manifold for the 2.0t where the tb is on the bottom, but instead the bottom is where the outlet of the charger will bolt to and flow. Then put the 2.5 tb on with a custom made tb spacer for the vacuum sensor, and then figure something out in terms of cooling
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
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    31. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 06:56 PM #31
      If we can figure this out, Im keeping the Rabbit if not, Im buying another car using the cavalier as a trade in. The Rabbit will go back to stock, and be a boring dd
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
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    32. Member mldouthi's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 07:04 PM #32
      Yes this would be somewhat part of the manifold.

      Let me see if I can draw something up here in paint. I will have a better rendering tomorrow when I can get to work and have a cad software to work with.

    33. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 07:10 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by mldouthi View Post
      Yes this would be somewhat part of the manifold.

      Let me see if I can draw something up here in paint. I will have a better rendering tomorrow when I can get to work and have a cad software to work with.
      Ya if we can get this done that would be great. C2 down to do up some tuning? One of their guys is local, so if it comes down to it, we could take my car down there for tuning, or one of the UM guys is local to, incase c2 wants no part.
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
      2008 Mkv-sold; 2003 yellow SRT-4-sold; 2009 G8 GT-sold; 1991 Talon TSI- fully built, HTA3582@30psi 600+awhp(900+awhp rebuild in progress)

    34. Member kevin splits's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 07:19 PM #34
      Pm me when you get the drawing done Once you have the thing mounted at least, Ill order one of the chargers I posted above, which seems to be the Cobalt SS charger.
      "The Vile Bunch" ll v2lab ll eemilitiatv ll Stay Orange.
      2008 Mkv-sold; 2003 yellow SRT-4-sold; 2009 G8 GT-sold; 1991 Talon TSI- fully built, HTA3582@30psi 600+awhp(900+awhp rebuild in progress)

    35. Member mldouthi's Avatar
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      10-18-2011 07:22 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by kevin FaKiN spLits View Post
      Ya if we can get this done that would be great. C2 down to do up some tuning? One of their guys is local, so if it comes down to it, we could take my car down there for tuning, or one of the UM guys is local to, incase c2 wants no part.
      C2 wants to do the software, they said I wouldnt even need to take my car there, just give me a tune and provide data logs for changes.

      heres my rough idea of the layout. using the core as part of the manifold.

      Runners in blue



      This should fit in a 12" x 12" and im not sure on the width (left to right)
      It would be great to find a 2.5" deep ic core. I cant find any water to air cores sold separate.

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