How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, 'powerful' 2.0 8v.

[Hurt]

The HKK ones were like $400 or less with core when they were being made. I don't think they were that sophisticated of a design. The USRT ones were an improvement, but the same guy, Greg Haley from HKK/SVi Welding, was making them as far as I know. The latest USRT long runner ones are someone else I'm pretty sure. I don't remember whole story but I remember people having problems getting work and parts back from Greg. Schimmel makes them too. I don't know about for a 2.0, but money talks.

The USRT manifold is awesome. Thanks for the info brother.

[zero.]

The only thing I'd suggest if you decide to build your own or get a custom one is to look into a dual plenum design. It'll distribute the air more equally at the runners/head. May not be too important for an N/A build, but for FI it could make a considerable difference.

[911_fan]

THe first version's of Greg's manifolds were a basic log welded to a lower stock piece. Then went to a measured log, stock bottom, domed with pressed-bell runners. THe latter is what was rebranded as USRT manifolds, and one of the models I dyno tested. He made the custom manifold that I ran (and sold to Zero).

THere was a huge pissing match (which I wont get into due to involvement) between Greg/HKK and Scott/USRT over production, so USRT went with various other welders and claimed a "different" design; so began the 'LRI'. All that consisted of was the bells integrated into the plenum wall as opposed to the original design of them protruding into the plenum. (<--the latter being more efficient btw)

[vacuumnoise]

It's not hard to do... if you can make measurements and can weld, or have somebody weld for you it opens up a whole world. Screw paying $700 for something that I built for $300, and **** on it in terms of flow.







Colm, this thread shouldn't be carried with the attitude of "something your average person can't do and won't be included" kind of thread. Those kind of decisions should be left up to the people attempting such things. If they feel it's too much for them well then maybe it is, that's not to say it shouldn't be included among this resource bin for ambitious people who don't want to puss(y) foot around and actually want to make power.

that looks very nice, i gotta start checking the classifieds more often for a SRI/LRI... cuz yeh $700 is a lot... 500 wouldn't be so bad.

[Hurt]

that looks very nice, i gotta start checking the classifieds more often for a SRI/LRI... cuz yeh $700 is a lot... 500 wouldn't be so bad.

700 isn't too bad for a 20whp gain, especially if you keep the USRT manifold and use it in other cars (I've had mine in 3 different cars!). It's probably the best performance part for a N/A 2.0 to make power except for a huge cam.

[AJmustDIE]

The only thing I'd suggest if you decide to build your own or get a custom one is to look into a dual plenum design. It'll distribute the air more equally at the runners/head. May not be too important for an N/A build, but for FI it could make a considerable difference.

Actually for a REAL n/a application, it would mean everything.

[Hurt]

The SRI manifolds are soooo good for power. I wish I could run mine with my BBM kit, but, alas, I cannot. I'm stuck with a ported MK4 manifold.

[AJmustDIE]

Dude, you could so get a built LRI with a nice sized plenum in there. It would resemble the 16v intake in shape but it could be built to PERFORM. I say take the plunge. BE A PIONEER.

[911_fan]

700 isn't too bad for a 20whp gain,

700 for the average manifold is too much, IMHO. Thats a cash grab of about $400 in profit after materials and labor is factored in. Trust me on that. The first 3 manifolds I bought were for under $300. (that was my price, though) And with the one I tested, even with a dinky 264* cam retarded 4*, I gained 21whp @ 6000rpms over the stock MKIII manifold. That's huge. Even on a bone stock motor, the older HKK manifolds were seeing a 10-12whp gain on the top end.

[vacuumnoise]

700 for the average manifold is too much, IMHO. Thats a cash grab of about $400 in profit after materials and labor is factored in. Trust me on that. The first 3 manifolds I bought were for under $300. (that was my price, though) And with the one I tested, even with a dinky 264* cam retarded 4*, I gained 21whp @ 6000rpms over the stock MKIII manifold. That's huge. Even on a bone stock motor, the older HKK manifolds were seeing a 10-12whp gain on the top end.

yeh I remember those dynos...

[Hurt]

700 for the average manifold is too much, IMHO. Thats a cash grab of about $400 in profit after materials and labor is factored in. Trust me on that. The first 3 manifolds I bought were for under $300. (that was my price, though) And with the one I tested, even with a dinky 264* cam retarded 4*, I gained 21whp @ 6000rpms over the stock MKIII manifold. That's huge. Even on a bone stock motor, the older HKK manifolds were seeing a 10-12whp gain on the top end.

I suppose 700 is a good chunk of change. I just think that relatively, it's cheap, considering all the $ involved in getting a 2.0 "fast" is pretty astronomical without boost or Nitrous.

A 264* cam? Who makes that? Is it some sort of hybrid between TT's 260* and 266*?

[911_fan]

Story goes like this...

Back in 2002, Eurospec Sport sold a 262* and a friend had it in his Jetta. It was a very OBDII-friendly cam. So I finally ordered one. But what I received was this fat lobed cam that idled like a farm tractor. Measured out the lift, and it was .442"/.443". Called up the distributor I bought it from, and they sent me out another cam, which, again, wasn't the 262*. It had a lift of .440", and after some research, I figured out that it was a stock VW 268* the Brazilian market cars got. Didn't like how it ran compared to the first cam they sent, so I pulled the 268 and put the first one back in. After some more research, I figured out it was the ESS 264* grind. (only cam on their parts list with those exact lifts.) I guess ESS only made so many 262*'s, then started making the 264's. Regardless, it was a better cam than the 268* was, IMHO. Lobes had a much more aggressive ramp and more lift than the 268*. It loped hard at 900rpms. Excellent low end power too. Sold that to some rally driver years back. Also never sent back that 268* and sold that off too. lol. Oh, and FYI, that Brazilian OE cam was the very cam TT based their 268* off of.

[Hurt]

Story goes like this...

Back in 2002, Eurospec Sport sold a 262* and a friend had it in his Jetta. It was a very OBDII-friendly cam. So I finally ordered one. But what I received was this fat lobed cam that idled like a farm tractor. Measured out the lift, and it was .442"/.443". Called up the distributor I bought it from, and they sent me out another cam, which, again, wasn't the 262*. It had a lift of .440", and after some research, I figured out that it was a stock VW 268* the Brazilian market cars got. Didn't like how it ran compared to the first cam they sent, so I pulled the 268 and put the first one back in. After some more research, I figured out it was the ESS 264* grind. (only cam on their parts list with those exact lifts.) I guess ESS only made so many 262*'s, then started making the 264's. Regardless, it was a better cam than the 268* was, IMHO. Lobes had a much more aggressive ramp and more lift than the 268*. It loped hard at 900rpms. Excellent low end power too. Sold that to some rally driver years back. Also never sent back that 268* and sold that off too. lol. Oh, and FYI, that Brazilian OE cam was the very cam TT based their 268* off of.

Jeez. Sounds like they couldn't get their stuff together but it actually worked out for you. Sounds like the 264* is a really good cam. I wonder if anyone still makes it. I've seen 262*s for sale on NGP, along with 272*s and whatnot.. I had to get my 276* boost cam from them.

I know that the TT 268* is a high performance cam from VW, I didn't know Brazilian cars got them, though. I thought it was a Euro GTI thing. In my experience the 268* is a really nice cam for mid to high end.

Thanks for the info

[Hurt]

Travis, do you happen to know anything about KENT cams? I looked them up, and on NGP they have a 260* with 440" of lift, and a 266* with 440" of lift, along with plenty more. They sound like they're pretty decent.. I'm putting together the SRI section, too, as well as adding some more cams to the cam section. I really appreciate everyone's input. It really helps.

~Colm

PS: I'm trying to finish my freaking 8v, guys.

Got the cam installed, finally.. I'm getting my intercooler, mk4 manifold, and charge piping powder coated flat black for the whole "stealth" look. I'm also painting all of the hose clamps, and some little things. I want this to look as factory as possible.

I'm about 3/4 of the way done! When I get my parts back from the paint shop it should be done engine-wise. I'm changing my suspension from Ultra Lows to Koni Yellows with Neuspeed Race springs, for track-ability. Then I am going to do a ton of body work. Sleepy boser, shaved trunk, and more. The interior is already pretty much done. I have GLX leathers.. If I decide to upgrade, I'll go with Recaro SR7's, probably. I've been dailying my VR6 Golf and I love the power (hard to believe my 8v is going to be faster!!), but the MPG is killing me and I bottom out alot.. (construction!)

I'm sort of upset that my wife made me sell my 67' 331 stroker fastback to build this car, but.. hey, I want a fast 8v track car. And, well, I'm buying my track coupe back.. She's good to me. I'm just a baby. I made one hell of a profit from building that mustang.. It's just a shame the guy who bought it is making it into a "eleanor" clone, like the other 99% of 67-68 fastbacks.

[AJmustDIE]

[stlgolf3]

Hey hurt I was looking at that header that raceland makds n it says that it already deletes the cat if that is so then I dont need the 42dd pipe right, n I was also wondering how those black pacesetter headers work

[Hurt]

Hey hurt I was looking at that header that raceland makds n it says that it already deletes the cat if that is so then I dont need the 42dd pipe right, n I was also wondering how those black pacesetter headers work

I guess it does, it must have a flange to delete the cat or extend the exhaust. The pacesetter header works the same way, it has a flange to bolt up to the stock cat or you can delete it.

I've only run TT's header and OBX headers.. So I'm not exactly sure about it. But a header doesn't really do anything for an ABA. If you want to get a good exhaust set up, get a MK4 AEG exhaust manifold and get a TT 2.5" SS Downpipe, or a TT Race DP, and that'll take care of any flow issues.

A cam should really come before a header.. For the 200 dollars you pay for a header, you can get a good cam instead. Hell, even a non-cam chip is more beneficial than a header.

[vacuumnoise]

I guess it does, it must have a flange to delete the cat or extend the exhaust. The pacesetter header works the same way, it has a flange to bolt up to the stock cat or you can delete it.

I've only run TT's header and OBX headers.. So I'm not exactly sure about it. But a header doesn't really do anything for an ABA. If you want to get a good exhaust set up, get a MK4 AEG exhaust manifold and get a TT 2.5" SS Downpipe, or a TT Race DP, and that'll take care of any flow issues.

A cam should really come before a header.. For the 200 dollars you pay for a header, you can get a good cam instead. Hell, even a non-cam chip is more beneficial than a header.

header gives you a very few extra ponies, but it is much lighter, I only swapped an obx header in cuz my stock exhaust mani was falling apart.
It actually feels like I gained some midrange with it! O but then again I also swapped in a 42DD high flow cat...

and saved 12 pounds

also just swapped in a lightweight battery yesterday, saved 15 pounds...

[stlgolf3]

Only reason I need the new header because my stock one is leaking n can upost links of the ones ur suggesting

[vacuumnoise]

go on ebay, and its obx jetta/golf header either 93-98 or 85-98 cuz the mk2/3 headers are the same, mk1 header wont fit tho...

[OC80]

Colm don't delete it! your being a baby. Things dont go your way and you cry about it and this helps people so dont delete it. If you need help go to the dr you are such a drama queen jimmy is all worked up about this. cut it out!

[zero.]

For the supercharger section, you can also add Z-Engineering and it's successor, the RSC by Ruf-Kompressoren. I don't think anyone has ran the RSC on an ABA in the states yet. It costs around $2500 new with bracket and is supposedly a 70-100hp increase:
http://www.ruf-kompressoren.com/wb/p...percharger.php

Dynos of the Z-Engineering on stock engine:



The Z-Engineering kits originally came with the ZR1 charger, which they used both on 2.0 and VR6, just a different bracket setup. It was later upgraded to the ZR2 model that used a cogged setup instead. Original ZR1 chargers that were replaced or repaired under warranty were upgraded to the cogged setup as well. When VF-engineering bought Z-Engineering out or whatever, they had a charger exchange program also.

New these ran close to $3k I think. They go anywhere from $600+ these days. I've seen some try selling damaged used ones for over $2k on rarity, but I picked up two complete kits with a bunch of extra parts for just under $2k total. They run around 5-8psi with no upgrades.

[Hurt]

For the supercharger section, you can also add Z-Engineering and it's successor, the RSC by Ruf-Kompressoren. I don't think anyone has ran the RSC on an ABA in the states yet. It costs around $2500 new with bracket and is supposedly a 70-100hp increase:
http://www.ruf-kompressoren.com/wb/p...percharger.php

Dynos of the Z-Engineering on stock engine:



The Z-Engineering kits originally came with the ZR1 charger, which they used both on 2.0 and VR6, just a different bracket setup. It was later upgraded to the ZR2 model that used a cogged setup instead. Original ZR1 chargers that were replaced or repaired under warranty were upgraded to the cogged setup as well. When VF-engineering bought Z-Engineering out or whatever, they had a charger exchange program also.

New these ran close to $3k I think. They go anywhere from $600+ these days. I've seen some try selling damaged used ones for over $2k on rarity, but I picked up two complete kits with a bunch of extra parts for just under $2k total. They run around 5-8psi with no upgrades.

Aren't these centrifugal? I've never really looked at these, but I've seen VR6's run them.

[zero.]

Aren't these centrifugal? I've never really looked at these, but I've seen VR6's run them.

Yes, they are just like the Vortech and VF chargers except you don't need to run an oil line as it's self-contained. On the plus side there is plenty of space to run an SRI.

[vacuumnoise]

Yes, they are just like the Vortech and VF chargers except you don't need to run an oil line as it's self-contained. On the plus side there is plenty of space to run an SRI.

yeh those are sick, I would love to pick up one of those, BTW did you get yr setup together yet??

on another note here's a pic of my heatshield and new battery

[Hurt]

[QUOTE=vacuumnoise;77656117]yeh those are sick, I would love to pick up one of those, BTW did you get yr setup together yet??

on another note here's a pic of my heatshield and new battery


Unfortunately, I'm still waiting on powdercoating.. And to be honest, I've been considering putting the Lysholm into my coupe (bought back.)

[zero.]

yeh those are sick, I would love to pick up one of those, BTW did you get yr setup together yet??

I got just the charger on a couple of weeks ago. Running a TT chip that came with one of the kits. Everything is stock except for 2.25" magnaflow exhaust and it pulls about the same as my Mk2 with stock VR6. I have a United Motorsports chip tuned for it with 30lb injectors too that I was going to try. I just took the SRI off my old car and debating on putting on with charger. I was going to swap the head at some point with my old one when I do the timing belt, but need it looked over and a different cam for it first. I also have to relocate the battery and get some charger piping/top mount intercooler before I can do the SRI.

I was thinking about selling both of the z-engineering kits and getting the RSC. One of their distributors said the z-engineering brackets would fit on it, but I don't know if that's 100% true. I know they have brackets for a VR6.

[Hurt]

I got just the charger on a couple of weeks ago. Running a TT chip that came with one of the kits. Everything is stock except for 2.25" magnaflow exhaust and it pulls about the same as my Mk2 with stock VR6. I have a United Motorsports chip tuned for it with 30lb injectors too that I was going to try. I just took the SRI off my old car and debating on putting on with charger. I was going to swap the head at some point with my old one when I do the timing belt, but need it looked over and a different cam for it first. I also have to relocate the battery and get some charger piping/top mount intercooler before I can do the SRI.

How much peak boost are you running? I've never really had a fast car with a centrifugal set up.. Well, G60's, but they're not technically a centrifugal charger.

I think they're kind of odd because they build boost so slow compared to a lysholm.. If you can get peak PSI at idle with a lysholm why bother with a centrifugal style supercharger? I'm ignorant to the whole Centrifugal thing. Can you give me an idea? Thanks bud.

[zero.]

How much peak boost are you running?

I haven't pushed it too hard cause it's an automatic. 2nd and 3rd gear pulls I have peaked around 7psi. They are basically like turbos with a turbine but powered by crank instead of exhaust. It produces little to no boost until you get on it or during WOT.

I don't know a whole lot about the design or flow of them. I think some guy took one apart and had pics of it for a rebuild awhile back on here. I mainly just bought them so I can run an SRI if I want and for spare parts. Centrifugal are said to be the most efficient and run the coolest. It's definitely not as noisy as a lysholm and delivers around the same power as the stage 1 BBM kit. Based on the dynos floating around out there, the z-engineering produces more torque and thats with stock injectors too I think. Can run other pulleys, drop compression, and run intercooler for more boost just like different staged BBM kits.

[etta gli]

You will never see 140hp on an 8v with only $1500. With all the mods you listed, you'd be lucky to break 120hp. Travis (tdogg74) barely broke 140hp with all your standard bolt-ons, serious head work, and custom SRI. The TT race header blows too and will rot out in a couple of years. Pointless without headwork too. Good info otherwise.

TT made 120whp a stock motor with stock manifolds, race downpipe, 2.25 exhaust, and a cam (268) + chip

With a true CAI, AEG intake, 276 cam (no excessive retarding, that's cheating!), and a header, I don't see why that wouldn't make AT LEAST 130.



I have an aba in my mk1 and have pretty much worked out my best options.
-Get a 4K with a diesel 5th
-Get a cam and chip so that it doesn't run like **** below 2 grand and above 4 grand
-*maybe* get a aeg intake, since they're ~$200 with all accessories and aren't exactly going to go bad.

At the end of the day, you're better off adding some valves. With the money you drop into mods you might as well go 16V, 9.2CR with 9a pistons, deck the block, or do some fancy piston work if your wallet allows. I've got a couple of buddies running high compression aba16Vs, and they run around VRs.

Two identically weighted cars, aba with diesel gears 10.8:1 CR, raceland header, and a modified exhaust cam for the intake. The other a dealer swapped VR with an exhaust and intake. The aba walked right by, and this was before head work, stroking, abf intake, and proper gears.

I currently have a TT race downpipe into a 2.25 exhaust with a stock manifold. A 16v manifold bolts right up

[Hurt]

I haven't pushed it too hard cause it's an automatic. 2nd and 3rd gear pulls I have peaked around 7psi. They are basically like turbos with a turbine but powered by crank instead of exhaust. It produces little to no boost until you get on it or during WOT.

I don't know a whole lot about the design or flow of them. I think some guy took one apart and had pics of it for a rebuild awhile back on here. I mainly just bought them so I can run an SRI if I want and for spare parts. Centrifugal are said to be the most efficient and run the coolest. It's definitely not as noisy as a lysholm and delivers around the same power as the stage 1 BBM kit. Based on the dynos floating around out there, the z-engineering produces more torque and thats with stock injectors too I think. Can run other pulleys, drop compression, and run intercooler for more boost just like different staged BBM kits.

Ahh. Thanks. I know they were like a turbo but belt driven, but don't they build boost kind of slow compared to a lysholm?


PS: I'll be out of town for a couple days. No Vortex for me..

[911_fan]

TT made 120whp a stock motor with stock manifolds, race downpipe, 2.25 exhaust, and a cam (268) + chip

And what was it dyno'd at stock BEFORE all the bolt-on's? 103whp! That is literally 8-10whp higher than what it really makes. Dynojets measure really high peak HP numbers. I pulled 135whp with a 276* cam and 143whp with a 288* on Eddy Current-based dynos. Clearly, had I rolled on a DYnojet, I would have comfortably been in the 150's. I love math.

[zero.]

Ahh. Thanks. I know they were like a turbo but belt driven, but don't they build boost kind of slow compared to a lysholm?

I can't compare cause I haven't driven or seen both. I've seen dyno pulls and people just driving around with a lysholm, but nothing with the boost gauge. They spin at like 36k RPM. In 2nd or 3rd gear I hit peak boost in a couple of seconds. It's not instantaneous. It basically keeps building boost the higher the RPMs and the faster you go.

[zero.]

TT made 120whp a stock motor with stock manifolds, race downpipe, 2.25 exhaust, and a cam (268) + chip

And the cost just for parts is around $1k assuming they are new and exhaust isn't stainless...not going to get another 20whp with $500 unless you know someone that does work cheap, get all used parts, or some kinda deal. I still stand by what I said as it's realistic.

[911_fan]

And the cost just for parts is around $1k assuming they are new and exhaust isn't stainless...not going to get another 20whp with $500 unless you know someone that does work cheap, get all used parts, or some kinda deal. I still stand by what I said as it's realistic.

Exactly, Parts alone for the cheapest aluminized exhaust, DP, chip and cam for an OBDI car is $775.
-Then add shipping.
-Then add $100 if you want a stainless exhaust with a good sounding muffler (Borla/Magnaflow)
-Then add $100 for a mandatory new set of lifters
-Then add another $20 or so on new gaskets you need to replace when you rip open the valve cover

There's your $1000 easy.

And lets not forget if you're OBDII, because you can go on ahead and add another $198 for the valve spring upgrade you will need.
Oh hey, while we got everything out, lets replace the valve stem seals. (be stupid not to, right?)
Oh and can't do the work yourself and have to have someone install either the exhaust or do the machine work?

There's your $1500.

All that for 15-20whp.