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    Thread: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, 'powerful' 2.0 8v.

    1. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      11-28-2011 10:31 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by 911_fan View Post
      I ran one for over 10 years. What do you want to know?
      Im actually interested in learning more because that is the only thing i have not done for my built head yet. Only reason i didnt buy one is because it was still my DD but now i have a second vehicle. Is there any significant problems that arise when running the cam gear set back a few degrees for extended periods of time to get increased top end?

    2. Member PKstrategy's Avatar
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      11-28-2011 10:38 AM #37
      cool and Travis, what are the "recommended" cams to use with an adjustable cam gear?
      does it make any sense to use on a stock cam?

    3. 11-28-2011 10:55 AM #38
      Pertaining to the Neuspeed gear....or any aluminum based gear....the main issue is that its aluminum. It may be great for weight, but isnt so great when it comes to durability over steel (oem material). Over time, the timing belt eats away at the gear teeth, making them very sharp. This, in turn, wears the timing belt material faster, making it more susceptible to failure. But being in the location it is, you can keep a close eye on it's wear. I fine toothed file can be used to smooth out any sharp edges. Also, with the Neuspeed gear specifically, the locking screw threads will strip with prolonged 'use'; So care is needed not to over-tighten the locking screws when tightening it.

      To be honest, the whole premise of a 'light weight' cam gear is silly if you think a bout what it is attaching to...the camshaft. Have you ever tried to turn over a fully loaded cam assembly by hand before? You cant. Valve spring tension is too great. So what is the sense of a lighter cam gear? Nothing really. Techtonics has/had a product they sold with that was the stock outer gear/teeth, with the gear spokes and hub replaced with their own aluminum design. A few grams lighter than OEM, but with the strength and durability of the OEM gear cogs for belt tooth longevity.

      And as for the functionality of the gear; Anything under 4* in either direction won't even register on the butt-dyno. For the most part, what you are doing is changing the valve open/closing event times. By advancing the gear, you are changing the events by 4* earlier. The effect this has is that low end torque is raised, and tapers down until peak hp, where it then continues to die off faster than the cam at 0*. The opposite occurs when you retard the timing. You lose a little bottom end, in which that gap decreases until peak hp, where after peak hp, your tq doesnt die off as fast as stock timing, and there is where you gain more hp on the top end. Depending your your mods depends on how much changes. On my old motor, I experianced about 5-7wtq difference adjusting it 4*. Not much of a change, now is it? This isnt a magical 'more horsepower' mod. Its more of a fine tuner tool to use in conjunction with whatever you have done to your motor and a dyno. There is no way to know what you did without looking real-time on a dyno and adjusting then.

      For the most part, I always set my gear to 4* advanced. With my peak hp at 6900rpms, I was able to get a little more grunt below 4500rpms for around town driving (about 90% of my driving) and still maintained my 135whp peak hp. Sure, power died off faster after peak, but who cares? I rarely revved past 7200 with the 276* cam anyways (no need to). So unless you plan on driving like a d*ck around town every day and rev your motor out at ever sign, light, and intersection, run +4* cam timing.

      Oh, and an adj cam gear on a stock cam is beyond pointless.

      Any other questions?

    4. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      11-28-2011 12:38 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by 911_fan View Post
      Pertaining to the Neuspeed gear....or any aluminum based gear....the main issue is that its aluminum. It may be great for weight, but isnt so great when it comes to durability over steel (oem material). Over time, the timing belt eats away at the gear teeth, making them very sharp. This, in turn, wears the timing belt material faster, making it more susceptible to failure. But being in the location it is, you can keep a close eye on it's wear. I fine toothed file can be used to smooth out any sharp edges. Also, with the Neuspeed gear specifically, the locking screw threads will strip with prolonged 'use'; So care is needed not to over-tighten the locking screws when tightening it.

      To be honest, the whole premise of a 'light weight' cam gear is silly if you think a bout what it is attaching to...the camshaft. Have you ever tried to turn over a fully loaded cam assembly by hand before? You cant. Valve spring tension is too great. So what is the sense of a lighter cam gear? Nothing really. Techtonics has/had a product they sold with that was the stock outer gear/teeth, with the gear spokes and hub replaced with their own aluminum design. A few grams lighter than OEM, but with the strength and durability of the OEM gear cogs for belt tooth longevity.

      And as for the functionality of the gear; Anything under 4* in either direction won't even register on the butt-dyno. For the most part, what you are doing is changing the valve open/closing event times. By advancing the gear, you are changing the events by 4* earlier. The effect this has is that low end torque is raised, and tapers down until peak hp, where it then continues to die off faster than the cam at 0*. The opposite occurs when you retard the timing. You lose a little bottom end, in which that gap decreases until peak hp, where after peak hp, your tq doesnt die off as fast as stock timing, and there is where you gain more hp on the top end. Depending your your mods depends on how much changes. On my old motor, I experianced about 5-7wtq difference adjusting it 4*. Not much of a change, now is it? This isnt a magical 'more horsepower' mod. Its more of a fine tuner tool to use in conjunction with whatever you have done to your motor and a dyno. There is no way to know what you did without looking real-time on a dyno and adjusting then.

      For the most part, I always set my gear to 4* advanced. With my peak hp at 6900rpms, I was able to get a little more grunt below 4500rpms for around town driving (about 90% of my driving) and still maintained my 135whp peak hp. Sure, power died off faster after peak, but who cares? I rarely revved past 7200 with the 276* cam anyways (no need to). So unless you plan on driving like a d*ck around town every day and rev your motor out at ever sign, light, and intersection, run +4* cam timing.

      Oh, and an adj cam gear on a stock cam is beyond pointless.

      Any other questions?
      Thanks for the advice, fuel cut on my car is 7200-7300 rpm anyway so no need to retard the timing then. I have a 276 TT cam in my fully p&p'ed head with other supporting mods so this sounds to be my next best step. Thanks for the advice now I know what I will be buying seeing as today is Cyber Monday

    5. 11-28-2011 01:53 PM #40
      Make sure you purchase the correct product. I believe your 2002 motor has the cam position sensor integrated in the gear itself. Might want to double check that......

    6. Banned Hurt's Avatar
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      12-04-2011 01:12 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by zero. View Post
      The info about the headers is incorrect. TT also has a 4-1 race header. It's not stainless though and collector will rot out in 2-3 years of daily use. I didn't notice much of a power difference when I ran it, and it did make my car a lot louder. You can also still run an aftermarket/high flow or modified OEM cat with this header and their racing downpipes if you wanted.
      http://techtonicstuning.com/main/ind...th=2_13_60_297
      TT's header costs 500 bucks, so I didn't add it.

    7. Moderator root beer's Avatar
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      12-04-2011 01:39 PM #42
      I got mine nib in the classifieds brand new for $300, along with a full exhaust for $100.....I personally think they're some of the best headers available for these cars. It's definitely not ebay junk, and it doesn't have the bull**** tri-y merges that most have. Also, you can add a nice collector if you want.....that's where the power is made. I've heard some guys have made some really good power gains by going to a long collector(you can either go the summit racing route, or burns, vibrant) on these motors on a regular old pacesetter even. The fact that you can order a header with 1.75" primaries is just awesome.

      My vr thread has schrick 268's in it....800 dollar cams. That doesn't mean you can't find them used for 3-400.

      Tell people the best parts, they can figure out pricing.
      Last edited by root beer; 12-04-2011 at 01:44 PM.
      How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful VR6
      I am ready, I am

      I want to buy some 4x100 15" Pininfarinas. If you have one of the few sets i've seen, please let me know.

    8. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      12-04-2011 06:24 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by root beer View Post
      I got mine nib in the classifieds brand new for $300, along with a full exhaust for $100.....I personally think they're some of the best headers available for these cars. It's definitely not ebay junk, and it doesn't have the bull**** tri-y merges that most have. Also, you can add a nice collector if you want.....that's where the power is made. I've heard some guys have made some really good power gains by going to a long collector(you can either go the summit racing route, or burns, vibrant) on these motors on a regular old pacesetter even. The fact that you can order a header with 1.75" primaries is just awesome.

      My vr thread has schrick 268's in it....800 dollar cams. That doesn't mean you can't find them used for 3-400.

      Tell people the best parts, they can figure out pricing.
      Well put, ive been kicking around the idea all week of dropping the money for the mk4 2.0 supersprint header, I have $ but 1000 is alot for one... i think i may go for it though

    9. Banned Hurt's Avatar
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      12-04-2011 09:12 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by 02vwgolf View Post
      Well put, ive been kicking around the idea all week of dropping the money for the mk4 2.0 supersprint header, I have $ but 1000 is alot for one... i think i may go for it though
      For 1,000 dollars you may be able to find a used turbo kit or supercharger. 10 bills for only say 7bhp isn't worth it IMHO. That money would be better spent on a mk4 AEG exhaust manifold and a TT race downpipe, and that's only 400. With the other 600, you could have a nice night with an "escort".

    10. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      12-04-2011 10:20 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
      For 1,000 dollars you may be able to find a used turbo kit or supercharger. 10 bills for only say 7bhp isn't worth it IMHO. That money would be better spent on a mk4 AEG exhaust manifold and a TT race downpipe, and that's only 400. With the other 600, you could have a nice night with an "escort".
      Already had a turbo'd mk4 2.0, this one im working on now im trying to do all motor which gets me laughed at by most people And I already have a ported exhaust manifold and custom dp/racepipe...but want to give a legit header a go. Trying to get 140 whp

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      12-05-2011 08:16 AM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by 02vwgolf View Post
      Already had a turbo'd mk4 2.0, this one im working on now im trying to do all motor which gets me laughed at by most people And I already have a ported exhaust manifold and custom dp/racepipe...but want to give a legit header a go. Trying to get 140 whp
      I spent over 10,000 dollars on my old MK2 coupe ABA track car and the most I dyno'd was 160whp. If you want 140whp, you'll atleast need:
      288 cam
      Lots of headwork
      +.5 compression HG
      A SRI
      Header/race DP
      2.5" straight exhaust
      Custom Software..
      etc.. Not an easy task.

    12. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 08:55 AM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
      I spent over 10,000 dollars on my old MK2 coupe ABA track car and the most I dyno'd was 160whp. If you want 140whp, you'll atleast need:
      288 cam
      Lots of headwork
      +.5 compression HG
      A SRI
      Header/race DP
      2.5" straight exhaust
      Custom Software..
      etc.. Not an easy task.
      Im somewhat on my way to those numbers... so far I have

      276 TT cam with upgrraded lifters, followers, etc
      Major port and polish
      Custom SRI (to be installed within the next few weeks)
      ECS lightweight Pulleys
      Neuspeed adjustable cam gear (just ordered)
      EGR/secondary air delete
      Ported AEG exhaust manifold to custom 2.5" racepipe (soon to be replaced by supersprint header)
      2.5" non catted, non resonated magnaflow exhaust
      VF engineering motor mounts (all three)
      United Motorsports Tune with Cam profile

      Trying to think if I forgot anything else, If I cant get the numbers I want out of this cam I want to go to the 288 but I've never heard/seen anyone run one in a mk4 2.0. Any tips advice

    13. 12-05-2011 09:46 AM #48
      I hope you did a 'stock' dyno. Setting a goal is great and all, but unless you have a base-line to compare too, its just an arbitrary number. Every dyno is different, and every dyno operator is just ass suspect. Just because you roll 140whp, doesnt mean squat unless you know what YOUR baseline was. What if, for instance, your baseline on the dyno you used was 100whp. You rolled 140whp...thats only a 40whp net. What if you rolled 88whp stock. Now its a 52whp net. What's more important? Saying you rolled 140whp or saying you gained 52whp over stock?

      Not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, just trying to keep expectations in check. I am curious to see how all this motor work pans out on a MKIV and see it run CEL-free with the 276*. I'm not sure how well you would like a 288* in a MKIV. Between the weight of the car and the tall gear ratios of any MKIV-trans options, I don't think any top end gained would be worth the low-rpm loss. Unless you are just going for bragging rights and don't plan on driving the car as a daily driver.

      Regardless, do as much as you can and keep it CEL-free. As long as that light is lit, you still have work to do....

    14. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 10:15 AM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by 911_fan View Post
      I hope you did a 'stock' dyno. Setting a goal is great and all, but unless you have a base-line to compare too, its just an arbitrary number. Every dyno is different, and every dyno operator is just ass suspect. Just because you roll 140whp, doesnt mean squat unless you know what YOUR baseline was. What if, for instance, your baseline on the dyno you used was 100whp. You rolled 140whp...thats only a 40whp net. What if you rolled 88whp stock. Now its a 52whp net. What's more important? Saying you rolled 140whp or saying you gained 52whp over stock?

      Not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, just trying to keep expectations in check. I am curious to see how all this motor work pans out on a MKIV and see it run CEL-free with the 276*. I'm not sure how well you would like a 288* in a MKIV. Between the weight of the car and the tall gear ratios of any MKIV-trans options, I don't think any top end gained would be worth the low-rpm loss. Unless you are just going for bragging rights and don't plan on driving the car as a daily driver.

      Regardless, do as much as you can and keep it CEL-free. As long as that light is lit, you still have work to do....

      Dont worry already did everything you said, baseline was 86 whp on a local mustang dyno...I was pretty embarrassed after seeing that but I knew I needed a number to work off of. And as far as the CEL, to my amazement( and the reason I will always be using Jeff at United Motorsports from now on) the CEL has not even come on once since the cam has been installed which was 2 months ago. Only real problem Im trying to overcome, as long as the dyno operator was running the dyno right, I seem to stop making power after 6600-6700 rpm.... which surprised me because with the P&P and big cam I was expecting it to keep making power up to the 7200 rpm fuel cut.

      What do you guys think? Im in need of advice and I know some of you guys have alot of experience building aba's and such
      Last edited by 02vwgolf; 12-05-2011 at 10:22 AM.

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      12-05-2011 10:21 AM #50
      And I forgot to say It was daily driven for a month and a half after the cam was installed, but now I finally got an suv so she gets to stay in the garage while im up in school And as far as why im doing it, its the same reason why I did my 2.0t...just because all my friends make fun of me for "wasting" money on my 2.0 and dont think I can do it Its really just personal aspirations that drive my desire to do it, im the only person who drives it and I love every single one of those 8 valves

    16. 12-05-2011 10:37 AM #51
      What was done to your head as far as 'work'? Was it flow benched after? What cam profile was it ported for? Were the velocity ramps ground out of your MKIV intake ports? What you had done to your head is going to play a MAJOR role in your torque curve. Then there is how the SRI was designed and what rpm the harmonic wave was designed to hit at. Then there is header design that effects your low and high end torque peaks. Lots of head variables here...all parts of the puzzle.

      Stock 8v heads stop making torque after 4500rpms. Better flow just keeps it from dying as fast. Getting all the bolt-ons and headwork to work with each other is the key here.

      This is my before/after dyno from 2008. Even with a 288*, my peak was between 6000-6500rpms. Still pulled past 7000rpms, but never shifted past 7200. Its at this point where you need to run a REALLY large cam to move the peak powerband up into the 7000+ range. And that's not daily-drivable. Or inexpensive!


    17. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 12:28 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by 911_fan View Post
      What was done to your head as far as 'work'? Was it flow benched after? What cam profile was it ported for? Were the velocity ramps ground out of your MKIV intake ports? What you had done to your head is going to play a MAJOR role in your torque curve. Then there is how the SRI was designed and what rpm the harmonic wave was designed to hit at. Then there is header design that effects your low and high end torque peaks. Lots of head variables here...all parts of the puzzle.

      Stock 8v heads stop making torque after 4500rpms. Better flow just keeps it from dying as fast. Getting all the bolt-ons and headwork to work with each other is the key here.

      This is my before/after dyno from 2008. Even with a 288*, my peak was between 6000-6500rpms. Still pulled past 7000rpms, but never shifted past 7200. Its at this point where you need to run a REALLY large cam to move the peak powerband up into the 7000+ range. And that's not daily-drivable. Or inexpensive!
      I'll try and answer in order from what I remember, I was digging through my desk and cant find the paper with the info...

      -As for the flowbench, at the time the head was ported the flow bench was not working( got me a discount but doesnt help know how well it flows)
      -I had given the cam to the machine shop when I dropped the head off so it was ported to run the 276, machine shop recommended bringing it back if I decided to go with a larger cam later down the road
      -And to the best of my knowledge the velocity ramps were ground down, and a decent amount at that because when the shop was doing it they told my there were actually small air pockets inside some of the casting( which seems pretty terrible but its a mexican made head) which meant they had to grind more to get back to a metal surface

      The shop I took it to, I have became somewhat friends with and based off what your saying it sounds like a may need to remove the head and take it back to get flow benched to have a real idea how well it is flowing.

      And you seem to know a ton, have you had any experience porting obd2 throttle bodies because I have heard this can make a difference, but if too much is taken (which seems to be a fine line) it will kill the performance and tb's are pricey

    18. 12-05-2011 12:33 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by 02vwgolf View Post

      ...have you had any experience porting obd2 throttle bodies because I have heard this can make a difference,
      Yes and yes. I know a little...

    19. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 12:35 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by 911_fan View Post
      Yes and yes. I know a little...
      If okay, Can I maybe pay you to acquire your services

    20. 12-05-2011 12:40 PM #55
      What year did the MKIV switch to DBW?

    21. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 12:44 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by 911_fan View Post
      What year did the MKIV switch to DBW?
      01.5 i believe

    22. 12-05-2011 01:13 PM #57
      Wont touch DBW throttles. They don't take to being ported. Like, at all.

    23. Member 02vwgolf's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 01:18 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by 911_fan View Post
      Wont touch DBW throttles. They don't take to being ported. Like, at all.
      Damn thats unfortunate Once I get this new SRI installed I will be going back to get re-dyno'd just to see where it stands and how much progress/creative thinking is going to be needed to get everything I can out of this.

      I saw a thread over on the naturally aspirated forum a while back about the lack of provable gains from going with the TT over-sized valves in n/a ABA's... how do you feel about that because im thinking of if I have to that would be the last otpion

    24. 12-05-2011 01:57 PM #59
      Too much to get into regarding that. Diameter increases doesnt take well to shrouding created by the bigger valves. Unshrounding drops compression and you only have some much real estate between the valve face and bore. Intake ports are only so big where you lose low end velocity. If anything, go with a bigger exhaust valve. Proper bowl work and blending, plus a righteous 3-angle grind is most beneficial. Also, back-cut valves increase flow rates. But Im not really one to comment on this as I don't have any experience with porting heads, or flow benching.

    25. 12-05-2011 01:59 PM #60
      As for throttle options, go into the 1.8t forum and poke around for larger throttle options. There are a few threads that get into options that the guys utilize for BT options. But remember, make sure everything else is taken care of and that your throttle is the bottleneck. IOW, worry about that last.

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      12-05-2011 04:03 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by 911_fan View Post
      As for throttle options, go into the 1.8t forum and poke around for larger throttle options. There are a few threads that get into options that the guys utilize for BT options. But remember, make sure everything else is taken care of and that your throttle is the bottleneck. IOW, worry about that last.
      Will do, and i'll report back to everyone when I get some numbers as of where it stands currently

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      12-06-2011 10:07 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
      I spent over 10,000 dollars on my old MK2 coupe ABA track car and the most I dyno'd was 160whp. If you want 140whp, you'll atleast need:
      288 cam
      Lots of headwork
      +.5 compression HG
      A SRI
      Header/race DP
      2.5" straight exhaust
      Custom Software..
      etc.. Not an easy task.
      sounds like what my setup was

      ported polished OBDII german head, decked .002in surface
      TT 35mm intake valves TT 42mm Intake valves
      dual valve springs, Titiainum retainers, AEG lifters
      TT 276 cam
      BFI PEM stage 2
      LW flywheel
      LW crank pulley
      LW intermediate shaft gear
      LW alternator pulley
      deleted ac
      deleted ps
      OBX header
      42dd test pipe
      TT 2.25 catback with borla muffler

      made some good power and now its all for sale, gonna tripple what I made with the ABA now

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      12-07-2011 08:41 PM #63
      I didn't realize it was a MK4 you guys were talking about. The ABA I built for my coupe was from a mk3 (obviously), lol.

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      12-07-2011 09:07 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
      I didn't realize it was a MK4 you guys were talking about. The ABA I built for my coupe was from a mk3 (obviously), lol.
      I think everyone else in here besides for me is talking about mk3's and older, I wish I had my 2.0 aeg in a mk3 gti

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      12-10-2011 02:47 PM #65
      Updated some info. This thread is a MK3 ABA thread; that's why it's lacking info on the MK4 engines.

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      12-16-2011 01:52 PM #66
      buuuuuuuuump

    32. 12-16-2011 06:29 PM #67
      What capabilities do you have to read the air/fuel ratio? And how can you set it to what you want? This is what I'm finding as one of the keys to making good power and power where you want it.

    33. Banned Hurt's Avatar
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      12-17-2011 10:34 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by ny_fam View Post
      What capabilities do you have to read the air/fuel ratio? And how can you set it to what you want? This is what I'm finding as one of the keys to making good power and power where you want it.
      There are several videos about installing a A/F ratio gauge in your car on YouTube, I'm pretty sure it's basically just an o2 sensor.

    34. 12-18-2011 03:50 PM #69
      Are these gauges the common way to tune? or are they just toys. Most of the posts I see the mention of a chip upgrade. It would seem these are blind upgrades unless you have a measured record of what the fuel is actually doing. I understand that you can use a PC to connect to the OBDI &II computers to read the air fuel ratio.
      I know that with MegaSquirt you need to use a computer to read the air fuel ratio among other values to develop the tune. But the guys with MegaSquirt running are the only ones who talk about using the air fuel ratios in their tuning.

    35. 12-18-2011 04:54 PM #70
      The box tunes are just the basic set ups tuned on, what I consider, every day mods. Cam, exhaust, intake. Ignition is sweetened up for the bigger cams, as well as the fueling. Technically, you shouldnt need a wideband for it. I consider a wide-band set-up (I used the AEM UEGO) a necessary mod for every built motor. Not just to see what your fueling is doing, but to also aid in diagnosing issues you encounter along the way. It can tell you O2 and MAF issues immediately. Another think i had was a vacuum gauge. Sounds silly, but it also aids in any potential issues you might encounter.

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