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    Thread: Flint Michigan: Illegal Search and Seizure

    1. Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 11:06 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by HerrGolf View Post
      Just crazy that people are saying "How dare you have a problem with this law? Go back to Flint so we can destroy it. I hate poor people."
      I for one think it's just crazy people like you have a problem with the police trying to track down and arrest people who break the law. I smoke pot. I accept the fact I could get caught. I would never transport enough to be considered part the selling process so tough luck to those that choose that lifestyle.
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      10-22-2011 11:15 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by DJMRDARK View Post
      The whole notion of a narcotics checkpoint is the problem, not the u-turn. It's as American as "show me your papers".
      there is nothing wrong with someone having to prove that they are legally in the country. I carry my travel documents on me all the time when in the US and have almost had to show them to prove i am legal.

      since i am a legal traveller / resident of the US when i'm there, i have nothing to hide

    3. Member MrRline's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 11:27 AM #28
      Honestly this subject is too broad to cover and it boils down to public opinion but...

      As far as checking vehicles I see nothing wrong with having a dog walk around the car. This should be no different then a dui checkpoint to check sobriety or a boarder checkpoint if you have nothing to hide whats really wrong with it. Furthermore this is keeping drugs which the public has deemed harmful off the streets and keeps our economy going with fines a full prison system and an excuse for existifng for sheriffs as well as drug runners.

      To the invasion of privacy yes its more invassive then driving down the road and yes it is somewhat of a big brother step. It boils down tk do you believe in it or not. Me personally i do believe in it. I think theres nothing wrong especially with checking rigs.
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    4. Member HerrGolf's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 11:42 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      I for one think it's just crazy people like you have a problem with the police trying to track down and arrest people who break the law. I smoke pot. I accept the fact I could get caught. I would never transport enough to be considered part the selling process so tough luck to those that choose that lifestyle.
      You obviously didn't read what I said. The issue is that so many unconstitutional practices and laws go either unchallenged or unsuccessfully challenged because people in this country cower to authority in the most bizarre way. I'm not an anti-authoritarian but I would expect that in situations where the legality of what the authority is pursuing is doubtful that people wouldn't just point fingers are call others mentally decrepit or deviant.

      It's as though everyone is trying to curry favor with those at the top in anticipation of some sort of reward, even if they are far removed from the situation.

    5. Member MidnightSpecial's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 11:42 AM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by dj_cronic_metal View Post
      This should be no different then a dui checkpoint to check sobriety or a boarder checkpoint if you have nothing to hide whats really wrong with it.
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    6. Member MrRline's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 11:45 AM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by MidnightSpecial View Post
      Dont facepalm me hippie and yes i read article dont care nothing wrong with any dui checkpoint in my book
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      10-22-2011 11:45 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      How is a narcotics checkpoint any different that a DUI checkpoint? If they do this I assume they stop random vehicles (usually every 5th car or some such number) - unless they spot a vehicle with a defective light or other defective equipment.
      In the article it states DUI checkpoints were deemed illegal in Michigan.

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      10-22-2011 11:50 AM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by dj_cronic_metal View Post
      This should be no different then a dui checkpoint to check sobriety or a boarder checkpoint if you have nothing to hide whats really wrong with it.
      You think DUI checkpoints are about getting drunks off the street?

      Both ideas, the above and "drug" checkpoints are gross abuses of power, are are debatably a violation of the fourth amendment rights.

    9. 10-22-2011 11:53 AM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by DJMRDARK View Post
      The whole notion of a narcotics checkpoint is the problem, not the u-turn. It's as American as "show me your papers".
      Incorrect. The ruling on Edmond covers a number of points, but two do stand out - One, that "roadblocks" or "stops" for "general crime fighting" are not legal, but stops for a specific target, e.g., sobriety checkpoints are legal, and two, that there is the possibility that other stops can be legal if they are not random. The court has yet to make a definitive rule on this, so for now, the Flint program, featuring advertising and well marked areas will need further review.

      What does this have to do w/TCL anyway? Oh, that's right - the mods don't care anymore. Sad, really.

    10. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 11:55 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by 2VWatatime View Post
      What does this have to do w/TCL anyway? Oh, that's right - the mods don't care anymore. Sad, really.
      Finally, someone that sees this as the OT thread that it is.
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      10-22-2011 11:58 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Finally, someone that sees this as the OT thread that it is.
      i agree, this should be moved to OT. just because there's a car in the OP doesn't mean it's car related.

    12. Member MidnightSpecial's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 12:03 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by dj_cronic_metal View Post
      Dont facepalm me hippie and yes i read article dont care nothing wrong with any dui checkpoint in my book
      The problem is using "what's the problem if you have nothing to hide" as a defense. Know and exercise your rights.
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      10-22-2011 12:03 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by HerrGolf View Post
      You obviously didn't read what I said. The issue is that so many unconstitutional practices and laws go either unchallenged or unsuccessfully challenged because people in this country cower to authority in the most bizarre way. I'm not an anti-authoritarian but I would expect that in situations where the legality of what the authority is pursuing is doubtful that people wouldn't just point fingers are call others mentally decrepit or deviant.

      It's as though everyone is trying to curry favor with those at the top in anticipation of some sort of reward, even if they are far removed from the situation.
      Why are you taking what I wrote as cowing before some unjust authority.

      The way I see it....

      - Certain substances are illegal.
      - Transportation of said substances is also illegal.
      - With reasonable cause police can search your vehicle.

      As I already mentioned earlier police can use some pretty spartan grounds to search your home so I don't why the same shouldn't apply to motor vehicles especially when your do not own the ground upon which the vehicle is moving.

      I see a pretty smart way to track down violators. Warn them and pester those who try to avoid the warning. I know how it works in this country and of course some Ron Paul fanatical anti-big government guy will make the U-turn just to avoid being part of the "abuse" he sees and he will likely make a huge stink when pulled over and rant on all his precious time that has just been wasted. Sucks for him but it could have easily avoided if he never made the U-turn to begin with. Even if pulled over it's not as if a quick walk around by a policy dog is that much trouble.

      In areas where we indentify large amounts of drugs are transported I support the use of dogs.... The same way I support the use of dogs to sniff luggage if areas where people travel know as airports.
      Last edited by 2.0T_Convert; 10-22-2011 at 12:40 PM.
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      10-22-2011 12:19 PM #39
      I hate people who are so willing to roll over and give up their rights

    15. Member MrRline's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 12:19 PM #40
      To the comments about exercising your rights please America has become more a police state than it ever has before Atleast this one makes some sense and even DUI checkpoints make sense. I live in one of the worst DUI states in the country by far and i'm grateful to see cops on the side of the road on a Friday night doing this. I'd love to see this down here too because of the amount of illegal drugs that come in across the border of Mexico. Maybe rather than trying to attack this issue you should try to move to attack issues such as being frisked at the airport, extra security checks at airports, or the American patriot act which are far worse than a narcotics checkpoint by far. Cameras on the side of the road taking your picture, recording 24/7, the government telling you what you can and can't have these are way bigger concerns then a narcotics checkpoint imo.
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      10-22-2011 12:20 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Even if pulled over it's not as if a quick walk around by a policy dog is that much trouble.

      In areas where we indentify large amounts of drugs are transported I suppose the use of dogs.... The same way I suppose the use of dogs to sniff luggage if areas where people travel know as airports.
      The dog in the airport is a good analogy. What I am concerned about is the potential for someone who is possessing an amount of the drug not intended for distribution being snagged this way. I would imagine that a drug dog can sense even a small amount and that will lead to people getting searched, having a life-destroying charge for some tiny amount of drugs, etc. Overzealous law enforcement also has the potential to destroy families and communities, especially ones which have already been marginalized, such as flint.

      I primarily take issue with the way so many people uncritically and enthusiastically voice their support for a security measure based on a legally shaky application of authority.

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      10-22-2011 12:21 PM #42
      Guess I'll have to take the long way to my dealer's pad.

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      10-22-2011 12:28 PM #43

    19. Senior Member You'reDrunk's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 12:35 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      How is using reasonable cause to search for illegal substances illegal.

      The police can enter your home if they detect unreasonable electricity usage and witness other signs of a pot farm. Same applies to your car which as far as I know doesn't enjoy the same protected status as your home.
      you don't know much as you would be WRONG.

      my sister recently threw out a very high-profile case because the PC was NOT PC, and thus the police had no reason to stop the car and begin the search.....had they followed procedure or followed the law, they may have had a good collar.

      instead the culprits were let go and the case dismissed.
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    20. Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      10-22-2011 12:42 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by HerrGolf View Post
      The dog in the airport is a good analogy. What I am concerned about is the potential for someone who is possessing an amount of the drug not intended for distribution being snagged this way. I would imagine that a drug dog can sense even a small amount and that will lead to people getting searched, having a life-destroying charge for some tiny amount of drugs, etc. Overzealous law enforcement also has the potential to destroy families and communities, especially ones which have already been marginalized, such as flint.

      I primarily take issue with the way so many people uncritically and enthusiastically voice their support for a security measure based on a legally shaky application of authority.
      I believe that is already easily handled.

      As I stated earlier I would never carry enough on me to be considered part of the sales and distrubution process. I'm not sure but I believe carrying a certain amount of money and drugs can be used as grounds for charges on distrubtion or intent to sell. If it's a tiny ammout in a little bag the charges are lesser and may not even result in jail time. At that that's how it works in Connecticut

      I feel no pite for anyone caught with $10,000 in cash and a freezer sized ziplock bag full of product

      you don't know much as you would be WRONG.

      my sister recently threw out a very high-profile case because the PC was NOT PC, and thus the police had no reason to stop the car and begin the search.....had they followed procedure or followed the law, they may have had a good collar.

      instead the culprits were let go and the case dismissed.
      Well that's the purpose of the courts now isn't it?

      To define the law and how we respond. On another hand the case your sister threw out could end up in another court where a judge rules another way. In the MI case the police will continue with activity until someone ends up in court and the actions are clearly defined as violating something or another...

      Which is why I don't get the anger here. This is the world working as intended. Police take action and eventually it may end up having to face the wraith of a court.
      Last edited by 2.0T_Convert; 10-22-2011 at 12:47 PM.
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      10-22-2011 12:52 PM #46
      Atleast they give you a 1 mile warning there, here in california, the sign telling you its a checkpoint is literally right next to the officer. So by then its obvious its too late to do anything.

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      10-22-2011 01:05 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Basil Fawlty View Post
      ...this sounds similar to a DUI checkpoint. Down here in South Florida they are obligated to warn people the date and time of the checkpoint in the local newspapers.
      Yeah...
      I wonder if that's why they are putting he sign on the truck?..
      Maybe they think having a sign on a truck 1 mile before the checkpoint waives that legal issue?

      And I am all for allowing the police to do their job.
      But that doesn't mean setting up paranoid militant government type checkpoints to limit the free movement of the population.
      Yes, that is exactly what this feels like.
      If this is allowed, then what is to stop every single community from setting up similar checkpoints on the highways?
      The police need a reason to set up a roadblock checkpoint- some crime was committed, they are looking for a kidnap victim, etc.
      And they better have more probable cause other than "he was driving down this road" to say a drug dog "gave the signal" which allowed them to tear apart my car and find nothing, then leaving me with a torn up car.... and yes, that does happen.

      How about using those police officers to tackle crimes with victims?
      Oh wait, they don't get to seize cash and cars when they do that... making this seem more like revenue generation than crime fighting.
      Last edited by BRealistic; 10-22-2011 at 01:13 PM.
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      10-22-2011 01:13 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Yeah...

      How about using that police officers to tackle crimes with victims?
      Oh wait, they don't get to seize cash and cars when they do that.

      X2

      Good police work rarely if ever involves sitting around waiting for criminals to come to you. As far as the US Gov't is concerned you are protected from these types of operations, however the certain States like Michigan apparently are using their power to run these "check points". As an American you're free to move to a State that doesn't neccessarily get behind these sort of efforts.

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      10-22-2011 01:13 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by DJMRDARK View Post
      [B]Based on a case out of Indianapolis, the U.S. Supreme Court held in 2000 that narcotics checkpoints where everyone gets stopped on a public road are not legal and violate Fourth Amendment protections against illegal searches and seizures, professor David Moran at the University of Michigan Law School said.

      Wayne State University Law School professor Peter Henning said police can set up roadblocks to search all who pass by, but only if a crime has just been committed.
      I agree with the intent of the original law in that they should only be done to screen for highly relevant situations, such as looking for a serial killer that may be fleeing the area.

      General purpose roadblocks are overstepping what is reasonable and if you are just on your merry way to the grocery store you shouldn't have to be inconvenienced by traffic stops and delays that aren't necessary.
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      10-22-2011 01:19 PM #50
      I don't understand why they give any warning at all. Seems counterproductive to what they are trying to accomplish.
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