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    Thread: Differences of 058 and 06A valve cover breathers and crankcase breathers

    1. Member nnamssorxela's Avatar
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      11-23-2011 03:41 PM #1
      Hello all,

      I'm trying to read up on block and valve cover breathers. I know there are lots of custom options, but I'm going to start with mainly the OEM stuff.

      Obviously the AEB 058 valve cover does not have a vent, but the 06A do. I've heard of people tapping the AEB valve cover but it does not contain the sectioned/blocked off portion on the underside you see in the image below. Is that just a plate with holes, or is there something else under there that is important in ventilation like some sort of screen?

      (06A left, 058 right)


      The only difference I could find between the valve covers besides the breather is the angle of the oil cap, and the tab on the edge of the 058 style you see below:


      Why did VW make the valve cover with the molding for a breather for the AEB, but only include it in the later styles? What on the AEB makes it different to not require a valve cover breather, and also, why do people add them afterwards? I assume when adding more boost you would want the valve cover breather?

      Now to block breathers. This is where I get a little (more confused). I'm under the impression that the 06A style vents crankcase/block pressure through the oil filter housing, where as all the 058 style blocks have a plastic unit (which is offered in metal from some other older style block, maybe 16v?) that vents from right above the oil filter housing seen pictured below:



      I am also under the impression that it is common for people to block off the hole the plastic "arm" on the breather goes to with a freeze plug and run a threaded adapter plate like the ABA/16v guys do to run it and the valve cover breathers to a catch can:


      What does plugging the hole up with a freeze plug do? Would you not want to vent that as well as I'm sure VW put it there for a reason?

      Help me learn!

      -Alex

    2. Member nnamssorxela's Avatar
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      11-29-2011 09:53 AM #2
      Any info on this? I'm sure it's been covered but I couldn't find anything in the FAQ and google was a little less than helpful.

      -Alex

    3. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-18-2011 07:42 PM #3
      Any of the forum guru's wanna chime in on this one? I'll throw it in the FAQ once some good info is posted up on this.
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      12-18-2011 08:42 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      Any of the forum guru's wanna chime in on this one? I'll throw it in the FAQ once some good info is posted up on this.
      Thank you!!

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      12-18-2011 08:52 PM #5
      i'm nobody....

      and i do not know about the AEB VC not being vented.... i surmise it might have to do with the lack of SAI and a different emissions system.

      now the block breather, thats easier to address.

      the 06A block is different than the 058 block. and yes the 058 block shared parts and function from earlier blocks, thus the plastic part for the breather. since the 06A was a new design, why not make it all new since you are changing the block anyhow for no intermediate shaft? right? just like the 06A block does not have the provision for the distributor. the AEB does, though, because it was based of existing production parts, although it is blocked off like the 16V that the dizzy was on the head.

      and your question about why people put a freeze plug or block part of it off and use a blanking plate with a fitting. simple again.
      the part that runs laterally over where they put the freeze plug, that is for oil buildup to drain back to the block. the 06A does not use this as in the redesign of the block it is all part of the oil filter housing and area. advancements in technology, simplification, "hey while we are here", whatever you want to call it.

      the VC thing, i cant really answer as i have thought about it and have no logics for it.

      remember, i am nobody, just a guy who thinks alot and absorbs stuff. i make my own assumptions based upon personal experience and a basic understanding of how things work.





      i hope that helps you out some Alex Rossmann

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      12-18-2011 09:12 PM #6
      and come to think about it, the NB had an extension on the valve cover cap that had the breather off the side if it.....

      maybe they didnt want to uglify the other models with that setup and went to the other VC>

      and maybe when they went to the 06A block, with the different coil packs, and they redesigned the VC, maybe after running one non-vented for a couple years they figured that it needed a vent and built it in along with the other stuff? no bolt downs, whatever.

      i dont know too awful much about the different models and MK4 (actually A4 but if i write A4 here people will most likely think i am talking about an Audi. not many people understand the A4 is actually a B-chassis vehicle and the VW were the A-chassis code. it actually gets even more confusing when you figure the Audi has C-chassis (A6 model) and D-chassis (A8 model).... and a Passat is a B-chassis vehicle and not an Audi)

      i think that might be spill over from the aircooled days of Type I, Type II, Type III, etc.

      here is some Audi chassis code structure

      http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audi/usmodels.html

      and here is some VW chassis code structure

      http://www.autotech.com/appchart.htm

      notice all Passats are a B-chassis designation.... but are VW product. hope that confuses most even more

    7. Member nnamssorxela's Avatar
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      12-18-2011 09:21 PM #7
      Heh, love how you use my name

      I do appreciate your input...as usual. I do get that there were a lot of changes between the two blocks.

      Like you, I have a vast desire to absorb any and all information I come across, for me it is in hopes that somehow, it will eventually come into play down the line, whether it be building my own car or just diagnosing a friends. There are many basic principals that I do not understand, and I am no engineer by any means. Most of my questions will probably come across as silly or stupid, but I always put thought and effort into asking them. Most of the time I get all giddy and mixed when trying to get all of my thoughts through my stubborn and slow fingers onto this tiny little post window.

      That said, I still do not get why people still cap the oil buildup drain with a freeze plug. Does the excess oil now flow to the catch can? In doing this, do people "capture" excess "good" oil and send it to the can that should instead still be circulating the motor?

      As for the valve cover breather, is it advised to vent as much as possible in turbo applications with raised boost? I've seen some images of a 1.8t VC with breathers all across the top for a race application, although it is my understanding that the particular car is running a significant amount of boost with a significantly larger turbo than stock. How is all of this affected when all the emissions stuff is deleted?

      Also, I know someone curious had drilled out the breather "box" on the valve cover to see what lies behind it...


      And yes, you helped me out.

      -Alex

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      12-18-2011 10:03 PM #8
      for the freeze plug deal, i really cant say why other than to clean things up. they dont need that big ugly housing with the breather on top, so they blank it off. and it doesnt affect the operation as in this picture of one of the motors that was in that car, you can see the low point drain there on the big hole. maybe it was for if it ever got more than the small drain could handle? but the large hole on the left, with the divider in the middle, thats where the housing goes and the round hole is where the freeze plug gets popped into. on the right, the holes there are for the oil filter housing.



      on my A1 (politically correct chassis) Rabbit GTI 1.8L, that provision is not there for that stuff. i think that came about on the 16v motor.




      Quote Originally Posted by nnamssorxela View Post
      I've seen some images of a 1.8t VC with breathers all across the top for a race application, although it is my understanding that the particular car is running a significant amount of boost with a significantly larger turbo than stock.
      he he.... that car is on low boost for now (32psi)... maybe later it gets turned up as bad things happen every time @ 45psi.


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      12-18-2011 10:08 PM #9
      if i remember i will see if there is a06A VC in the storage and i will cut one open for you. and i have an APH (i think) NB VC here. it has no hump, it has no breather at all. it had that extension for the 710 cap that had a breather out the side of it.

      but here is something to confuse you even more i think. that one up there, with the cute kid, that is the Euro N/A VC. and it has the port off the end like normal with no hump. so not turbo.

    10. Member Chickenman35's Avatar
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      12-18-2011 10:12 PM #10
      The engine,per se, doesn't care where the PCV or venting comes from. The crankcase and Valve Cover are interconnected as far as crankcase venting is related. You can vent an engine from the Valve Cover or block. You can also run the PCV from the Valve cover or the block. It just depends on how the manufacturer designs things.

      058's run PCV from the block and vent to the block. ( Pancake valve connects to block ). 06A's run PCV from block and vent to the Valve Cover ( Pancake Valve connects to Valve Cover ). Either way works. Hard to say if one method is better than the other

      Look at a the classic Small Block Chevy. One valve cover is used for the PCV and the other Valve cover is used as a vent. Pontiac's do it a different way. PCV is connected to the block and venting is done through the valve cover. Again, either way will work.

      What is important is that the PCV and venting system should be operational ( on a DD street engine ). The PCV system causes no HP loss whatsoever. Not having it hooked up ( straight venting ) will result in oil being contaminated faster from crankcase blow-bye, possible leaks from oil seals that are designed to work under negative crankcase pressures and possible problems with excessive oil consumption past the oil control rings.

      Most proper Race Engines use a dry sump. The scavenge section of the dry sump pump acts like a giant PCV valve. Drag Racers try and induce as much negative pressure in the crankcase as possible, going as far as using belt driven vacuum pumps. This increases ring seal and lowers crankcase windage parasitic drag.

      Road Race and Oval track engines tend to run much less of a vacuum in the crankcase because too much negative pressure will literally suck the oil off of the cylinder bore walls and can damage the engine.

      Newer design dry sump scavenge pumps that pull more vacuum have now eliminated the requirement for extra vacuum pumps.
      Last edited by Chickenman35; 12-18-2011 at 10:23 PM.

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      12-18-2011 10:25 PM #11
      there is a great way to explain it.... which reminded me of the setup in my TPI'd 4x4 SBC SWB.

      Quote Originally Posted by Chickenman35 View Post
      Look at a the classic Small Block Chevy. One valve cover is used for the PCV and the other Valve cover is used as a vent.


      Quote Originally Posted by Chickenman35 View Post
      What is important is that the PCV and venting system should be operational. The PCV system causes no HP loss whatsoever. Not having it hooked up ( straight venting ) will result in oil being contaminated faster from crankcase blow-bye, possible leaks from oil seals that are designed to work under negative crankcase pressures and possible problems with excessive oil consumption past the oil control rings.
      and that brings up another good point.

      EDIT: i wasnt going to go into the dry sump arena.... but Chickenman brought it up. its something i have been looking into lately as well.... and i do have only drag race motors.

    12. Member Chickenman35's Avatar
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      12-18-2011 10:41 PM #12
      Peterson makes some very nice dry sump pumps, including the new 4 lobe twisted rotor design. You don't need an auxiliary vacuum pump when you run one of these:

      http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/pump_dry.html

      They also make a Wet-Vac pump which allows the engine builder to pull vacuum in the crankcase with a wet sump pump.

      http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/pump_wetvac.html

      Still...dry-sump is the best way to go.
      Last edited by Chickenman35; 12-18-2011 at 10:44 PM.

    13. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-19-2011 01:59 PM #13
      Added a link to this thread in the FAQ
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    14. Member nnamssorxela's Avatar
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      12-19-2011 04:01 PM #14
      Thanks for all the info fellas! That is indeed the motor I was talking about.

      It's beginning to make sense, but I will probably do a little more reading. If you have a spare cover that never plans to see the light of day, I wouldn't mind you taking a look inside and posting some pictures

      -Alex

    15. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-19-2011 04:13 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by nnamssorxela View Post
      Thanks for all the info fellas! That is indeed the motor I was talking about.

      It's beginning to make sense, but I will probably do a little more reading. If you have a spare cover that never plans to see the light of day, I wouldn't mind you taking a look inside and posting some pictures

      -Alex
      He said he's going to take an old valve cover that has baffles and run it through his band saw.

      So mystery will be solved soon!
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    16. Member nnamssorxela's Avatar
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      12-19-2011 04:20 PM #16
      Just letting him know it would be appreciated!

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      12-19-2011 10:20 PM #17
      went to storage, and no AWP VC.

      but i am gonna go out on a limb and say the baffle with holes was to prevent cam splash to the breather.... like the intake cam has the plastic cover over it? back in tha day it was sold as a "cam-saver" but its just a splash shield. now, the 1.8T has one over the intake cam where the 710 cap goes... and i think back then the 16V's had problems flinging oil out the breathers, or maybe that was the I-5's. neither of which i have much experience with.

      and FWIW i use two of that splash shield on my motors, and nothing over the exhaust cam just intake. those ports in the VC are between lobe centers, or right on the cams where there is not much action, to prevent oil loss without going to the extreme of building baffles for it.

      i will check with my buddy and see if he grabbed it. if i have it i will cut it up/open for the inquiring minds.

    18. 01-27-2012 09:48 AM #18
      let me ask a question and bring this topic back up...

      a few years back i got a valve cover for my AWP Jetta...the original valve cover had the larger breather vent and then a smaller nipple type vent off the cover. The new cover i got only had the single breather vent. So i ran an line from the breather to the catch can T'd with the one into the block and then out to the check valve into the intake. Overtime i got tired of the mess of hose and fittings i needed to make it work..so now i'm going to put it back to stock pretty much...but...i have no way to run a line with the new valve cover back to the check valve on the intake. Is that line necessary? Is it drawing vacuum from the head? If i just run the breather tube off the valve cover into the line that goes into the motor..and then cap off the check valve into the intake is that going to hurt anything? Am i going to lose vacuum at all or have any adverse effects?

      does this make sense? I have the original Y hose from the valve cover breather but with my APR turbo inlet the check valve is too far away to re-run that to it..so i'd again need adapters and fittings and i don't want to do that...

      let me know what you guys think!

      TIA

      Dan
      Am I OG status yet? Close to 40 years old and still driving a slammed and Boosted 'Dub...cool or sad?

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