Misfires on a K04+ FSI - 5500RPM w/ WOT

[jeremy_matrix]

Misfires happen across all four cylinders, usually 1 - 5 per cylinder.

Load doesn't appear to have much of an impact. Though most of the testing we've done has been on flat roads or on the track straights.

Can't be the HPFP; the fuel logs look great.. Changed out the LPFP because we were having some issues with the valve holding pressure after the car was shut off.

As for kickdowns on the shift - I'm actually still able to reproduce these on the Dyno staying in 3rd gear.. Shows up as a nice loss of power at exactly 5,500 RPM..

Anyway, I'm really feeling confident about the exhaust springs. Last time I had the car on the dyno I stood behind it while it was being run and I could clearly hear the POP POP POP out the tail pipe - so the valves must be open.. I mean, at this point - wtf else could it be right?

Also, there is a TSB for the TTS with the 2.0T and a factory K04 for soft exhaust springs, which is why I started looking at them. Makes sense the factory K03 cars would have springs at least as soft right?

Thanks for the info.
Different scenario than we have here with an '07 A3 2.0T.

Are you aware of the hydraulic lifter "hole" issue that the '06's had, where the lifters would fail to pump up due to being clogged with carbon/crud, and could cause misfires? Since you have an '08 TT, this shouldn't be your cause nor the cause of this '07, but it's interesting banter regardless.

[Aoshi]

Ok, springs are installed.

I confirmed with the dealership that my VIN number shows my car should have the problematic valve springs (These springs will have a yellow and white paint marking). Well, after taking the engine apart and pulling my springs out, it turns out I have the “good” springs (blue & white paint).

Ok, well we’ve already got the ferrea kit and the engine is apart – may as well change them out.
Once finished, we took the car out for some hard runs… no luck… the car is still misfiring.

One way I’m always able to reproduce this; Take the car calmly to 60kmph in DRIVE (this is the point the car shifts into 6th gear) and suddenly hammer the throttle (WOT). The car will shift down to 2nd gear around 4,800 RPM and when it climbs into 5,500 RPM range will misfire. Again, only 1 – 2 times per cylinder. The same can be reproduced at 100kmph and having the car shift down to 3rd. The problem now only appears when the car is in automatic. (This has been the case since I added the RS4 fuel valve)

Interesting enough, if I put the car into manual and shift to 3rd, start at 2,000RPM and hold the gas all the way to 7,000 RPM I do NOT get ANY misfires. Of course, I was getting misfires previously when doing this on the dyno – but that was prior to the RS4 fuel valve.

So after eliminating the valve springs, it seems my only option is to start uninstalling the upgrades I did just prior to this issue. In a nut shell, this is the intake, exhaust and DSG software.

I’m going to start with the DSG software because this problem is occurring only when in drive… I’m going to have the unitronic dealer reflash the DSG on Monday with my original software… I’ll let you know how that goes!

[jeremy_matrix]

Ok, springs are installed.

I confirmed with the dealership that my VIN number shows my car should have the problematic valve springs (These springs will have a yellow and white paint marking). Well, after taking the engine apart and pulling my springs out, it turns out I have the “good” springs (blue & white paint).

Ok, well we’ve already got the ferrea kit and the engine is apart – may as well change them out.
Once finished, we took the car out for some hard runs… no luck… the car is still misfiring.

One way I’m always able to reproduce this; Take the car calmly to 60kmph in DRIVE (this is the point the car shifts into 6th gear) and suddenly hammer the throttle (WOT). The car will shift down to 2nd gear around 4,800 RPM and when it climbs into 5,500 RPM range will misfire. Again, only 1 – 2 times per cylinder. The same can be reproduced at 100kmph and having the car shift down to 3rd. The problem now only appears when the car is in automatic. (This has been the case since I added the RS4 fuel valve)

Interesting enough, if I put the car into manual and shift to 3rd, start at 2,000RPM and hold the gas all the way to 7,000 RPM I do NOT get ANY misfires. Of course, I was getting misfires previously when doing this on the dyno – but that was prior to the RS4 fuel valve.

So after eliminating the valve springs, it seems my only option is to start uninstalling the upgrades I did just prior to this issue. In a nut shell, this is the intake, exhaust and DSG software.

I’m going to start with the DSG software because this problem is occurring only when in drive… I’m going to have the unitronic dealer reflash the DSG on Monday with my original software… I’ll let you know how that goes!

WOW, what a fiasco! I am very sorry to hear.
Lots of money for Ferrea springs(the best) installed.

Can you reiterate after which component installation that these cyl1-4 misfires (count of only 1-2) started?

[Aoshi]

WOW, what a fiasco! I am very sorry to hear.
Lots of money for Ferrea springs(the best) installed.

Can you reiterate after which component installation that these cyl1-4 misfires (count of only 1-2) started?

I upgraded the Air Intake and exhaust at the same time, and the DSG software later in the week. I didn't have a chance to really do anything with the car immediately after these upgrades, but after a few weeks I stopped at the dyno to get a feel for the new power curve. It was at the dyno we first identified the issue - and I confirmed it the following week on the track.

Prior to the RS4 valve, the car would suffer 10 - 20 misfires per cylinder at 5,500 RPM. After the valve we've reduced it to 1 - 2, only under the conditions I outlined above.

[jeremy_matrix]

I upgraded the Air Intake and exhaust at the same time, and the DSG software later in the week. I didn't have a chance to really do anything with the car immediately after these upgrades, but after a few weeks I stopped at the dyno to get a feel for the new power curve. It was at the dyno we first identified the issue - and I confirmed it the following week on the track.

Prior to the RS4 valve, the car would suffer 10 - 20 misfires per cylinder at 5,500 RPM. After the valve we've reduced it to 1 - 2, only under the conditions I outlined above.

Ok, got it, thanks.

The largest possible culprit I've seen from the K04-2.0T-misfire research is the intake and/or lack of laminar screen/flow straightener;
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...air-turbulence

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-on-k04-s3-kit


HTH

[Aoshi]

Nice dry, sunny sunday here today - so I took the car out for some more logging.

Remember, at this point I have the APR K04 software, and Unitronic's Stage 3 DSG.

Did several runs with the car all within an hour.

Temps were just below freezing while I was testing and logging.

All the following runs resulted in misfires as previously described:

• APR 100oct, MAF enabled, W/M enabled
• APR 100oct, MAF unplugged, W/M enabled
• APR 93oct, MAF enabled, W/M enabled
• APR 93oct, MAF unplugged, W/M enabled
• APR 93oct, MAF enabled, W/M disabled
• APR 93oct, MAF unplugged, W/M disabled

Again, tried the following with NO MISFIRES

• APR stock, MAF enabled, W/M enabled
• APR stock, MAF unplugged, W/M enabled
• APR stock, MAF enabled, W/M disabled
  
• APR stock, MAF unplugged, W/M disabled

I'm really having a hard time beleiving the issue is the DSG software if it's not happening on stock. I'm also having difficulty beleiving it's the MAF getting false readings if it's unplugged...

I wonder if I might be asking too much of the APR software - they don't offer an exhaust or intake package for this vehicle, and thus their tune may not work with it...? I'm going out to see the Unitronic dealer tomorrow and I'll see if they will install the Stage 2+ software and let me test it.

Either way, I'll leave the Unitronic dealer tomorrow either entirely Unitronic (ECU & DSG), or only with APR.

[One Bad MKV]

let me know how this workis i have been flirting with making the switch also but i am still waiting for arin to come through for with a little something.....have u tried running the stock intake???

[Aoshi]

let me know how this workis i have been flirting with making the switch also but i am still waiting for arin to come through for with a little something.....have u tried running the stock intake???

I went through dozens of threads and blogs of possible causes, the one common "solution" I refuse to do is to go back to the restrictive stock intake. I've found a few posts on this and another forum where arin stands firm the problem is the intake and the MAF.

Oh well, hopefully today will be the day we figure this out. I'll post up my highway driving results with the car tonight, and assuming all is well I'll track the car later in the week.

[Aoshi]

Ok, eliminated two of the possible causes today.

First, started the morning at H2Sport (the local APR dealer) and we installed the stock intake. Had THEM take the car out and log it - and yup - misfires.

so we put the AWE intake back on and headed over to Foreign Automotive (the local Unitronic dealer)

They reflashed the original, stock DSG software, took the car out and...... MISFIRES!!!

The only thing left here in the exhaust - and there's no F**king way i'm pulling that out. Since H2Sport is very confident we've eliminated any possibility of a hardware failure - it must be software.

I'll follow up tomorrow morning with H2Sport and APR, and I'll see if they can get me to the stock exhaust software for the K04... Failing that, Unitronic has been very generous and offered to reflash my car to their K04 software for me to test if it solves the problem.

[One Bad MKV]

Ok, eliminated two of the possible causes today.

First, started the morning at H2Sport (the local APR dealer) and we installed the stock intake. Had THEM take the car out and log it - and yup - misfires.

so we put the AWE intake back on and headed over to Foreign Automotive (the local Unitronic dealer)

They reflashed the original, stock DSG software, took the car out and...... MISFIRES!!!

The only thing left here in the exhaust - and there's no F**king way i'm pulling that out. Since H2Sport is very confident we've eliminated any possibility of a hardware failure - it must be software.

I'll follow up tomorrow morning with H2Sport and APR, and I'll see if they can get me to the stock exhaust software for the K04... Failing that, Unitronic has been very generous and offered to reflash my car to their K04 software for me to test if it solves the problem.

if the switch solves ur problems i will make the switch also i was emailing with arin for a file earlier this year...but said they where just busy right now and could not help till later so i backed off but would ne nice if we could all have the best file out there....that loue32 has a file that has been working for him for a while now and was having this issues also and has had the file for about a reay and no issues why not make out to us....Arin also said they were going to try out a new file in his car and where going to do some testing on it so that might be coming out well at least i hope i would not want to spend an other 700+ for an othr company to tune my car i like iapr but i hope that can help us out

[bostonaudi1]

Ok, eliminated two of the possible causes today.

First, started the morning at H2Sport (the local APR dealer) and we installed the stock intake. Had THEM take the car out and log it - and yup - misfires.

so we put the AWE intake back on and headed over to Foreign Automotive (the local Unitronic dealer)

They reflashed the original, stock DSG software, took the car out and...... MISFIRES!!!

The only thing left here in the exhaust - and there's no F**king way i'm pulling that out. Since H2Sport is very confident we've eliminated any possibility of a hardware failure - it must be software.

I'll follow up tomorrow morning with H2Sport and APR, and I'll see if they can get me to the stock exhaust software for the K04... Failing that, Unitronic has been very generous and offered to reflash my car to their K04 software for me to test if it solves the problem.

Been following your thread with interest (and hoping you get it solved). I would go on record as saying there is no way the exhaust is causing misfires unless there is a possible leak somewhere (you've checked?). Even a clogged cat would likely not cause it, just poor power. I use the AWE downpipe with my K04 and it runs great. But I'm also on Revo tune currently, but switching to Uni soon as I'd rather run S3 injectors.

Do any of the local tuners have a spare ECU you could swap in? I had unexplained troubles like this once with my old 944T, and it turned out to be a bum KLR ECU. At least you are narrowing things down.

[One Bad MKV]

this sucks exhaust i really find it very hard to beleive that would cause those missfires....and i am not about to drop in an other good amount for a down pipe that i already have

[Aoshi]

I've done the full rounds of logging APR asked for, so I'll give them some time to digest those and see what they say. I'll post up here when I get any new information.

[bostonaudi1]

this sucks exhaust i really find it very hard to beleive that would cause those missfires....and i am not about to drop in an other good amount for a down pipe that i already have

If you have your stock downpipe you could always temporarily drop it back in for a test. But misfires are typically an upstream problem.

[jeremy_matrix]

Ok, eliminated two of the possible causes today.

First, started the morning at H2Sport (the local APR dealer) and we installed the stock intake. Had THEM take the car out and log it - and yup - misfires.

so we put the AWE intake back on and headed over to Foreign Automotive (the local Unitronic dealer)

They reflashed the original, stock DSG software, took the car out and...... MISFIRES!!!

The only thing left here in the exhaust - and there's no F**king way i'm pulling that out. Since H2Sport is very confident we've eliminated any possibility of a hardware failure - it must be software.

I'll follow up tomorrow morning with H2Sport and APR, and I'll see if they can get me to the stock exhaust software for the K04... Failing that, Unitronic has been very generous and offered to reflash my car to their K04 software for me to test if it solves the problem.

Out of curiosity, have you tested fuel quality?

There was a local case here in OR, told to us by our BG Products rep. He had a case at Hyundai where a new car had random misfires, Hyundai’s tech line said to put new inj’s in, still misfiring. They put a new ECU in, still misfiring. The put a different ECU file on the new ECU, still misfiring. Then they tested fuel quality and there was 17% ethanol(too high!)!! They put more good 91/92octane in and the misfires vanished.

[Aoshi]

Out of curiosity, have you tested fuel quality?

There was a local case here in OR, told to us by our BG Products rep. He had a case at Hyundai where a new car had random misfires, Hyundai’s tech line said to put new inj’s in, still misfiring. They put a new ECU in, still misfiring. The put a different ECU file on the new ECU, still misfiring. Then they tested fuel quality and there was 17% ethanol(too high!)!! They put more good 91/92octane in and the misfires vanished.

No, we haven't tested the fuel quality here but I've had the problem for over 7 months now, far too long for me to be the only one if it was a gasoline issue.

The only source of 94 octane in Ontario is Petro Canada, so I would think the community would have noticed this issue by now...? Wouldn't the Stage 3 guys would be more affected by bad gas than the K04's?

[jeremy_matrix]

No, we haven't tested the fuel quality here but I've had the problem for over 7 months now, far too long for me to be the only one if it was a gasoline issue.

The only source of 94 octane in Ontario is Petro Canada, so I would think the community would have noticed this issue by now...? Wouldn't the Stage 3 guys would be more affected by bad gas than the K04's?

Ok, understood. Just trying to help with other possibilities.

Anyone even with a stock car would be affected by crappy fuel. It's been a recurring issue here in OR since we have no state fuel testing/standards, so we always get the junk fuel.

[One Bad MKV]

i was thinking it could be fuel problem also i am going to try and get some 109 oct and dump it in turn of the them and then with the meth see what happes keep us updated i did those same logs a while back but ended in nothing

[Aoshi]

A quick update since it's been so long.

Over the past 2 months I've been running the stock intake with APR's 93 oct program and water meth off.

I still get misfires, and have logged them extensively for APR's support. I've re-created every situation I misfire in, including a few 4th gear pulls where i expereienced several pops when passing through 5,500rpm. FYI - The misfires ARE showing up in all my logs.

Requested vs. Actual... everything... looks good. Fuel trims, boost pressure, rail pressure...

So I can appreciate APR having trouble tracking this down as the car logs show the engine is working as expected. I am however, dissapointed with the lack of support from APR throughout this.

I've returned logs whenever requested - usually within a few hours of being asked. I have gone through every conceivable piece of hardware on the vehicle and tested/replaced everything that could be causing this.... I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars chasing this problem down over the last year as has been documented in this thread.

I have purchased every APR product they make for my car, and I still have yet to have any useful help from them on this issue. I am extremely frustrated and I cannot imagine how this is not a software issue at this point and thus I am moving on to try another tuner.

Now for the good news - Both Unitronic and GIAC have stepped up and offered to give me a 30 day trial of their software! I am going to trial the GIAC software first, as they have a 100 oct tune. I'm also excited that they will give me a tune to take full advantage of all the upgrades I have on my car. I've scheduled track time on May 16th and will be logging my runs.

I will post up my results with the new tune as soon as I can.

[jeremy_matrix]

A quick update since it's been so long.

Over the past 2 months I've been running the stock intake with APR's 93 oct program and water meth off.

I still get misfires, and have logged them extensively for APR's support. I've re-created every situation I misfire in, including a few 4th gear pulls where i expereienced several pops when passing through 5,500rpm. FYI - The misfires ARE showing up in all my logs.

Requested vs. Actual... everything... looks good. Fuel trims, boost pressure, rail pressure...

So I can appreciate APR having trouble tracking this down as the car logs show the engine is working as expected. I am however, dissapointed with the lack of support from APR throughout this.

I've returned logs whenever requested - usually within a few hours of being asked. I have gone through every conceivable piece of hardware on the vehicle and tested/replaced everything that could be causing this.... I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars chasing this problem down over the last year as has been documented in this thread.

I have purchased every APR product they make for my car, and I still have yet to have any useful help from them on this issue. I am extremely frustrated and I cannot imagine how this is not a software issue at this point and thus I am moving on to try another tuner.

Now for the good news - Both Unitronic and GIAC have stepped up and offered to give me a 30 day trial of their software! I am going to trial the GIAC software first, as they have a 100 oct tune. I'm also excited that they will give me a tune to take full advantage of all the upgrades I have on my car. I've scheduled track time on May 16th and will be logging my runs.

I will post up my results with the new tune as soon as I can.

Thanks for the update Aoshi. Sorry you are still having issues. (FYI, our client's misfires were due to 3 faulty S3 inj's. Supposedly there was a faulty run of inj's from Audi AG, and of his 7 inj's, 3 were bad. Issue solved now though)

I look forward to hearing your feedback with the GIAC!

[Aoshi]

Thanks for the update Aoshi. Sorry you are still having issues. (FYI, our client's misfires were due to 3 faulty S3 inj's. Supposedly there was a faulty run of inj's from Audi AG, and of his 7 inj's, 3 were bad. Issue solved now though)

I look forward to hearing your feedback with the GIAC!

That is very intereting. I'm running S3 injectors as well.

How did you determine the injectors were bad?

I got mine last spring from APR.... If I still have this issue with the GIAC software, I'll swap out my injectors. Though I think if they were bad I'd be having worse issues than a misfires under these conditions. Who knows, always worth looking into!

Thanks for the info Jeremy!

[jeremy_matrix]

That is very intereting. I'm running S3 injectors as well.

How did you determine the injectors were bad?

I got mine last spring from APR.... If I still have this issue with the GIAC software, I'll swap out my injectors. Though I think if they were bad I'd be having worse issues than a misfires under these conditions. Who knows, always worth looking into!

Thanks for the info Jeremy!

Our client got his early this year, although who knows how long the vendor had them in their stock. Perhaps they're from the same run as yours? In order for you to diagnose, you'd need to get 4 good inj's(we're actually going to suggest having inj's flow tested before install as they require the intake manifold to be pulled for install).

Here was how the saga played out;

-InjA(original in X kit) in cyl1.
-InjB(original in X kit) in cyl2.
-InjC(original in X kit) in cyl3.
-InjD(original in X kit) in cyl4.
-Misfires on cyl2 and cyl3 after kit installed….only under throttle kickdown/WOT/uphill/5000rpms.
-Moved InjA to cyl2, moved InjB to cyl1, moved InjC to cyl4, moved InjD to cyl3. Now misfires on cyl1 and cyl4. This suggests B and C are faulty.
-Client had X send 2 new replacement inj’s (E and F). InjE installed in cyl1(so InjB is now out of the car), InjF installed in cyl4(so InjC is now out of the car). Misfires on cyl1 are gone so InjB is a known faulty inj and InjE is a known good inj. InjF is a possible faulty inj as cyl4 is still misfiring, and we don’t know if InjC is really faulty or not as cyl4 is still misfiring.
-So now we only have cyl4 still misfiring….but feels like a coilpack misfire as misfires at onset of boost, lower rpms. Swapped coil packs around, no change. Swapped new plugs around, no change.
-Client had XX send 1 new replacement inj (InjG). Since InjA in cyl2 wasn’t misfiring, we consider that a known good inj—same with InjD, known good. So, we moved InjA from cyl2 to cyl4(InjF is now out of car), and installed InjG into cyl2. Cyl2 is still not misfiring and cyl4 is still misfiring, so we know InjG is a known good inj and InjA is actually still a known good inj as it’s never been on a misfiring cyl. Cyl4 misfire now back to only under throttle kickdown/WOT/uphill/5000rpms.
-So, we know;
InjA and D that came in original X kit are both known good.
InjB is a faulty inj that came in original X kit.
InjC is a possible faulty inj that came in original X kit.
InjE(X replacement) is known good as it hasn’t been on a misfiring cyl, InjF(X replacement) is a possible faulty.
InjG(XX replacement) is known good as it hasn’t been on a misfiring cyl.

X tested InjB, C, and F, and verified they were faulty.
Issue solved via diagnosis.

[Aoshi]

I was hoping there was a lot number or color ring or some other identifying feature. Oh well, I'll test the new software first, and if that fails I'll try a new set of injectors.

[One Bad MKV]

yeah well that is how it works bro we are little fish in a pond this full with sharks lol so yeah....when are u getting the other tune in.....I was thinking about switching over to gonzo to take full advantage of all my mods but we will see still waiting on arin my self

[Aoshi]

yeah well that is how it works bro we are little fish in a pond this full with sharks lol so yeah....when are u getting the other tune in.....I was thinking about switching over to gonzo to take full advantage of all my mods but we will see still waiting on arin my self

Wednesday I'm heading over to load it up. Assuming there's no problems with this tune, I'll head over to the dyno and check out what kind of numbers it's putting down.

From what I've read so far GIAC has an excellent K04 tune. I was sold when I saw they had a file for the K04 with S3 injectors, HPFP, Intake, TB Exhaust, FMIC, RS4 FPR, and 100 oct. Essentially, everything my car has on the powertrain.

For the record, even with the misfires APR was putting down 316whp and 304wtq on a dynojet. I'm sure it would have been much better if it didn't choke.

[One Bad MKV]

post up results asap i want somthing more agressive more made for my mods but we will see what happens i have waited already for about 4 months can wait a little longer

[Aoshi]

Just got back from the tuning shop -

GIAC doesn't have a file for this ECU, so they are prepping one for me. So we'll have to wait a few more days..

[xtravbx]

man! I was hoping to see what the results were today.

[One Bad MKV]

dam i was all ready to hear how it went oh well ill wait

[Aoshi]

File is ready, but I can't get in until Monday to get it done.

The suspense is killing me!

[xtravbx]

call off work and go =)

[Aoshi]

Ok, GIAC installed.

Car feels good.

After over an hours of 3rd and 4th gear pulls, in Pump and Race mode, with Meth on and off...

Drum roll please....

No misfires.. Not one.. Not a single POP, Click, Bang or anything else.

I'm not calling this one though until I've tracked the car (This wednesday) and I've run it on the Dyno (next wednesday). I want to be 100% sure this problem is solved.

I've logged several of my pulls the same way I did the APR ones. When/if I ever get the chance I'd like to sit down and see what the main difference is between them.

I'll keep you posted over the next 10 days.

[One Bad MKV]

Just what i needed to hear since u have all these logs comparing would be nice and post up what u fint post up track results......u should have tried this before all the modiffications u had to do even thou in the end u will benefit from them.....


On a side not i had the same issues and they just went away lol only thing i did was reflash the car changed the plugs and added an afftermarket intercooler.....still want somthing more agresive for my car so i will just have to wait and see

[jeremy_matrix]

Ok, GIAC installed.

Car feels good.

After over an hours of 3rd and 4th gear pulls, in Pump and Race mode, with Meth on and off...

Drum roll please....

No misfires.. Not one.. Not a single POP, Click, Bang or anything else.

I'm not calling this one though until I've tracked the car (This wednesday) and I've run it on the Dyno (next wednesday). I want to be 100% sure this problem is solved.

I've logged several of my pulls the same way I did the APR ones. When/if I ever get the chance I'd like to sit down and see what the main difference is between them.

I'll keep you posted over the next 10 days.

Woot woot!! Let us know how it is after your track day and dyno.

[Aoshi]

Just what i needed to hear since u have all these logs comparing would be nice and post up what u fint post up track results......u should have tried this before all the modiffications u had to do even thou in the end u will benefit from them.....


On a side not i had the same issues and they just went away lol only thing i did was reflash the car changed the plugs and added an afftermarket intercooler.....still want somthing more agresive for my car so i will just have to wait and see

I wonder if it was your flash.. I changed my plugs (More than once) and I'm running the APR intercooler and that didn't make a difference for me.. We flashed and re-flashed my car back and forth between Testpipe and standard APR as well, so it definitely wasn't a corrupted flash for me.

I spent today with H2Sport hammering the car *HARD*. We really leaned on it, walked it through 3rd and 4th, hard shifting from 6th down to 2nd and so on, and they didn't see any errors or issues.

Tomorrow is the cars first day at the track since we finished the suspension and brakes. I can't wait!