Suspension spec thread

[ryeboy]

MkV user opinions on Ohlins: http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread...100863&page=19

Ohlins Dyno info here:



Came from this thread: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148279

Starts off as a shock dyno thread, but lots of valuable information within as it evolves.

[Slave IV]

Awesome! Thanks ryeboy! That's the kind of discussion and info I like to see. I wonder why so many people here talk s#!t about mkv forums when I mention them as a good resource because again, they always seem to have the "real" info on things while people here talk mostly about personal opinion and hearsay. Anyway, I'm glad we can get more info here one way or another.

What they say about Ohlins is exactly what I've been trying to explain to people here and why I want more data on all the available options. Then people can see what the differences are and why they might want to pay more or less for one product over another instead of basing their decisions on things like, "I have this kit and I think they are great". Interesting discussion they had on spring rates and the right balance of stiff, but not too stiff for this car..only thing is I think some of them were talking about GTI's but the numbers should be close to what would work for us too...

[JRutter]

Interesting that the compression / rebound rates are reversed from the PSS10s. I have read elsewhere that lower rebound rates are better for reacting to bumps. I have had on instance where I had to do a hard stop from high speed on a road with chatter bumps, and I packed down the front dampers onto the bump stops because they weren't rebounding under constant pressure form braking. Not very fun. Has not happened since, maybe a break-in fluke (that was punintentional) ...

It may well be that higher spring rates would actually help the PSS10s in the heavier VR / AWD chassis.

[Slave IV]

JRutter, did you look at the link I posted in #28? Some interesting findings there about Bilsteins...
I think higher spring rates are needed in general from a performance standpoint but they need to be paired with dampers that match the rates. This can be done through re-valving if needed but there is a point where most dampers won't react fast enough even if revalved and that's where issues like the one you mentioned can come in and some dampers will never be able to perform and do it comfortably because of cost (build/design/quality) restrictions.

[ryeboy]

... Interesting discussion they had on spring rates and the right balance of stiff, but not too stiff for this car..only thing is I think some of them were talking about GTI's but the numbers should be close to what would work for us too...

Yes, they were GtIs. I figured that Ohlins adjustability should allow tuning for the R32 chassis. Plus, I'm poised to drop >160 lbs from the front end which should make application of the Ohlins less of a stretch. I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on the Ohlins. Seems hard to go wrong.

There were some more testimonials from 2 Ohlins GTI users that I couldn't find again last night. I'll keep looking.

[Slave IV]

Yes, they were GtIs. I figured that Ohlins adjustability should allow tuning for the R32 chassis. Plus, I'm poised to drop >160 lbs from the front end which should make application of the Ohlins less of a stretch. I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on the Ohlins. Seems hard to go wrong.

There were some more testimonials from 2 Ohlins GTI users that I couldn't find again last night. I'll keep looking.

Yep, in no way was I suggesting that anyone should not get Ohlins because of that. I've been trying to get more info and talk about Ohlins since I've been on this forum. At the price you can get them for, I'm not sure why anyone even considers what is already on most of the R32's out there but again, that's one of the main reasons for this thread so we don't have to keep making the same mistakes. Anyone who actually sells the Ohlins should be competent enough to have them fine tuned for the R32 if needed. This route seems to be the best option from what I know at this point and I just still want to see more info about specific spring rates for the R32.

On another note, care to share how you are going about your 160 lb weight reduction? Main thing I can think of is CF hood and fenders but I don't think that will get you near 160 lbs...

[ryeboy]

Yep, in no way was I suggesting that anyone should not get Ohlins because of that. I've been trying to get more info and talk about Ohlins since I've been on this forum. At the price you can get them for, I'm not sure why anyone even considers what is already on most of the R32's out there but again, that's one of the main reasons for this thread so we don't have to keep making the same mistakes. Anyone who actually sells the Ohlins should be competent enough to have them fine tuned for the R32 if needed. This route seems to be the best option from what I know at this point and I just still want to see more info about specific spring rates for the R32.

On another note, care to share how you are going about your 160 lb weight reduction? Main thing I can think of is CF hood and fenders but I don't think that will get you near 160 lbs...

Sorry I misspoke. The loss should be more like 120-130 lbs over the front end. Still not too shabby.

Lightweight wheels (done), Passat Aluminum control arm/spindle (in hand awaiting install), 2 piece rotors (RB), aluminum calipers (RB), and the Ohlins should also drop a few pounds. Bit by bit, it adds up and best of all its all unsprung and/or rotating weight.

OTOH, I'm making some compromises that most are unlikely to appreciate (17" wheels, 330 x 32 mm 2-piece RB rotors) but throw in the RB calipers and you drop ~70 lbs right there over OEM front end (28 lbs in the rear for the wheels and 2-piece rotors). The Passat aluminum parts are supposedly good for another 49 lbs over the OEM steel parts. I'll weigh each part as I switch them out, but most of the weights are already out there.

I'll probably post all of this in a new thread once complete.

[Slave IV]

Sorry I misspoke. The loss should be more like 120-130 lbs over the front end. Still not too shabby.

Lightweight wheels (done), Passat Aluminum control arm/spindle (in hand awaiting install), 2 piece rotors (RB), aluminum calipers (RB), and the Ohlins should also drop a few pounds. Bit by bit, it adds up and best of all its all unsprung and/or rotating weight.

OTOH, I'm making some compromises that most are unlikely to appreciate (17" wheels, 330 x 32 mm 2-piece RB rotors) but throw in the RB calipers and you drop ~70 lbs right there over OEM front end (28 lbs in the rear for the wheels and 2-piece rotors). The Passat aluminum parts are supposedly good for another 49 lbs over the OEM steel parts. I'll weigh each part as I switch them out, but most of the weights are already out there.

I'll probably post all of this in a new thread once complete.

Thanks! This is the first I've heard about using Passat control arms...do you get the same change in track as you do with the TT control arms? Any other pros/cons of running those Passat control arms?

[ryeboy]

Thanks! This is the first I've heard about using Passat control arms...do you get the same change in track as you do with the TT control arms? Any other pros/cons of running those Passat control arms?

My understanding from others experience is that they are a direct swap for the MKV parts only lighter. This has been discussed in a couple of threads. I didn't want to deal with the added track of the TT arms--I am already running 245 width tires (Michelin PSS) so I don't have room for more track.

[Slave IV]

My understanding from others experience is that they are a direct swap for the MKV parts only lighter. This has been discussed in a couple of threads. I didn't want to deal with the added track of the TT arms--I am already running 245 width tires (Michelin PSS) so I don't have room for more track.

Exactly my thinking..I'm not on 245's (yet) but my wheels are ET43 and ET45 and the ET43 is already making me nervous about rubbing. Plus, I don't want to change the balance of the handling like that even though it actually makes sense if you are trying to dial out understeer.

[JRutter]

JRutter, did you look at the link I posted in #28? Some interesting findings there about Bilsteins...
I think higher spring rates are needed in general from a performance standpoint but they need to be paired with dampers that match the rates. This can be done through re-valving if needed but there is a point where most dampers won't react fast enough even if revalved and that's where issues like the one you mentioned can come in and some dampers will never be able to perform and do it comfortably because of cost (build/design/quality) restrictions.

I did read that. The PSS10 is a redesign from the PSS9, IIRC. I dialed in my current settings by watching my headlight beam bounce on my daily commute. I stiffened the fronts up until the bounce seemed critically damped. The backs seem to feel best about 2 clicks lighter than the fronts. I did see a difference as I moved up the range, so I think that the PSS10 design is actually adjustable compared to the PSS9.

I also wanted to add that my experience with packing down onto the bump stops was at a low damping setting, like 1 or 2 (lower = less damped). ANyway, good info on the Ohlins. The dyno graphs are very close to some KW V3 graphs that I have seen - on a bimmer forum, I think.

[ryeboy]

OP you are probably aware of Vorshlag's service that will measure any springs for free to add to their data base (and ship them back to you):

http://www.vorshlag.com/tech_springrates.php

Pretty cool idea. Maybe someone who has installed an aftermarket suspension could send the OEM springs in for measurements.

[Slave IV]

OP you are probably aware of Vorshlag's service that will measure any springs for free to add to their data base (and ship them back to you):

http://www.vorshlag.com/tech_springrates.php

Pretty cool idea. Maybe someone who has installed an aftermarket suspension could send the OEM springs in for measurements.

Nice...Companies like Swift will also test springs and custom make based on their findings. Just need someone who has some lying around that cares enough about it to do it but I still think the info should be easier than that to get, especially because all the OE springs are several years old now. I don't see why it's so hard for aftermarket companies to provide spring rates unless they are trying to hide something and OEM spring rates should be available in a tech manual somewhere. I mean, every single aftermarket coilover setup for any car should have been tested for them to determine what rate they use so they could easily pass that info on (along with the oem specs) and if they can't or don't, they are either hiding something or they really don't know and/or didn't do proper testing so that's something to think about for all those coilover setups that have already been sold and installed on cars.

I really thought this thread would draw out more people who have the info because they figured it out before they bought anything but it looks like I was completely wrong and there are only a couple people who seemed to have cared before they bought something. I'm not too concerned about the suspension yet because I think the car has other areas that I will address before but when/if I ever do suspension, you guys can be sure that I will post all details and findings here.

[ryeboy]

Yes, they were GtIs. I figured that Ohlins adjustability should allow tuning for the R32 chassis. Plus, I'm poised to drop >160 lbs from the front end which should make application of the Ohlins less of a stretch. I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on the Ohlins. Seems hard to go wrong.

There were some more testimonials from 2 Ohlins GTI users that I couldn't find again last night. I'll keep looking.

I just spoke to someone at Performance Shock and it seems I need to give up on my Ohlins dream. They claim that the fitment for the MkV GTI will not work on the R32. I guess that makes sense, but it surprised me since so many people here have been giving them consideration.

[Slave IV]

I just spoke to someone at Performance Shock and it seems I need to give up on my Ohlins dream. They claim that the fitment for the MkV GTI will not work on the R32. I guess that makes sense, but it surprised me since so many people here have been giving them consideration.

I thought I saw someone post about an R32 on Ohlins at some point. Did you ask about Motons? Or did they have any other input/suggestions?

[TeamZleep]

The fitment on the GTI/R32 are the same...

I had R32 Ksports on my Rabbit, and my R32 had GTI fk's on it... All the Ohlins would need is adjusted valving for the weight of the R32...

[ryeboy]

The fitment on the GTI/R32 are the same...

I had R32 Ksports on my Rabbit, and my R32 had GTI fk's on it... All the Ohlins would need is adjusted valving for the weight of the R32...

Thanks! Good to know. I wonder why the guy at Performance Shocks didn't know this?

[Slave IV]

Thanks! Good to know. I wonder why the guy at Performance Shocks didn't know this?

Interesting...Performance Shock is usually a good resource. Now I'm wondering about the Ohlin TTX kit they were supposed to be working on for the B5S4 too

[TeamZleep]

Thanks! Good to know. I wonder why the guy at Performance Shocks didn't know this?

I dunno... It seems so odd to me that people don't realize it... I mean look at a picture of the R32 rear suspension and a regular MKV IRS... Almost the same thing. Maybe try calling them back and explaining it...?

[ryeboy]

I dunno... It seems so odd to me that people don't realize it... I mean look at a picture of the R32 rear suspension and a regular MKV IRS... Almost the same thing. Maybe try calling them back and explaining it...?

Thanks.

I might try that. The guy was going on about how the AWD makes the fitment impossible versus FWD. He said that after he supposedly checked with the VW expert on staff Didn't make any sense based on what I had read here (re: same IRS), but I figured these guys are the suspension experts I'll see what he gets back to me with. He was going to look into various options and shoot me an email. Disappointing to be sure.

[TeamZleep]

Disappointing for sure man... I'd almost buy them anyways. The fronts are the same exact McPherson design and the rear shocks are the same length and mount in the same spot. Rear springs sit in the same cups in the same control arm in the rear...

I mean tell him you know a guy who has had an R32 coilover kit on his FWD MKV and has had FWD MKV stuff on an R32 chassis... Laugh at how stumped he is..

[ryeboy]

Disappointing for sure man... I'd almost buy them anyways. The fronts are the same exact McPherson design and the rear shocks are the same length and mount in the same spot. Rear springs sit in the same cups in the same control arm in the rear...

I mean tell him you know a guy who has had an R32 coilover kit on his FWD MKV and has had FWD MKV stuff on an R32 chassis... Laugh at how stumped he is..

Took your advice and called back. Spoke to another guy (Beau) who quickly confirmed that they would fit and said that weight differences are really a spring issue much more than a damper issue. He had no concerns that they would work well for the R32 application. <$1900 + shipping.

Maybe I got a guy on his first day the first time around. Who knows

[Slave IV]

lol, nice. Ohlins just went back to the top of my list again.

[TeamZleep]

Maybe... but maybe there's hope for us. I'm seriously considering this... My stock springs are perfect and would do the job well.

[ryeboy]

Maybe... but maybe there's hope for us. I'm seriously considering this... My stock springs are perfect and would do the job well.

Likewise. I like my stock springs and ride height for NYC roads and winters. For reasons that I didn't fully understand, sales guy #2 was more concerned about unsprung weight differences rather than sprung weight differences in regards to the GTI vs R32 application. But when I mentioned what I was doing to shed unsprung weight--he thought the Ohlins would offer a fantastic combination of compliance and control. Plus, he thinks such a set up could be very trackable given their adjustability. I'm going to sleep on it, but I think I'm sold.

[JRutter]

Took your advice and called back. Spoke to another guy (Beau) who quickly confirmed that they would fit and said that weight differences are really a spring issue much more than a damper issue. He had no concerns that they would work well for the R32 application. <$1900 + shipping.

Maybe I got a guy on his first day the first time around. Who knows

Can you get info on what the spring rates are for FWD 2.0 vs AWD 3.2? That would be great info for this thread (and for me!).

[ryeboy]

Can you get info on what the spring rates are for FWD 2.0 vs AWD 3.2? That would be great info for this thread (and for me!).

Yes. For some reason that information seems hard to come by. Vorshlag has an offer to measure any OEM or after market spring rates free of charge (and post it on their growing database). It would be great if someone who has removed the OEM springs could send them in for testing. They return them to the owner, but those who have already done aftermarket suspensions are probably those least motivated to go to the trouble.

[ryeboy]

Can you get info on what the spring rates are for FWD 2.0 vs AWD 3.2? That would be great info for this thread (and for me!).

Forgot that the GTI spring rates are posted (but not the R32):

2006 VW GTI (MarkV), OEM Front Spring 4.5 12.75 156 314 493 673 Marked with 2 red dots, 2 white dots

Approximate Rate 156 158 179 180 155-180 #/in variable rate


2006 VW GTI (MarkV), OEM Rear Spring 4.1 13 188 375 559 744 Marked with 3 yellow dots, 1 blue dot

Approximate Rate 188 187 184 185 185 #/in straight rate

[Slave IV]

Can you get info on what the spring rates are for FWD 2.0 vs AWD 3.2? That would be great info for this thread (and for me!).

This was one of the main reasons for the thread and it's still unanswered, LOL @ us and the entire MkV R community here. I'm not doing suspension anytime soon so I'll be of no use for a while but when I do, I plan on going to Swift and have them measure my springs to make me some custom ones to go w/ Ohlins. Only thing is the OE springs are about 5 years old now and they will be even older when I do it...

[ryeboy]

Can you get info on what the spring rates are for FWD 2.0 vs AWD 3.2? That would be great info for this thread (and for me!).

MkIV R32 spring rates are discussed here:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4076329

Short version 275 F and 345-380 R

[Slave IV]

MkIV R32 spring rates are discussed here:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4076329

Short version 275 F and 345-380 R

Interesting...although I doubt the MkV has the same rates. If so, it looks like most the aftermarket kits we have info on have lower rates than stock

[TeamZleep]

Interesting...although I doubt the MkV has the same rates. If so, it looks like most the aftermarket kits we have info on have lower rates than stock

That's usually the biggest problem with aftermarket kits, IMO.

[Slave IV]

That's usually the biggest problem with aftermarket kits, IMO.

Strange...it's not an issue at all on most aftermarket kits for my S4 and all the info is available for every reasonable option for that car I guess the only positive explanation for this is that our stock suspension is really that good from the factory but I think anyone who really drives it will agree that the rates are too low and the overall suspension is too bouncy.

[Mr_Peach]

Dumb Q:

What's the typical 'wear out' path for OEM?

I'm sitting at about 80K (and of course 4.5 years) and assuming that my OEM dampers might be getting tired.

If I got new dampers (Ohlins, for sake of argument), are my stock OEM springs still good to go? I mean, ignoring any desire for stiffer / linear / lower, do springs wear out at the same rate as dampers? Differently?

[Slave IV]

I don't know if there is a formula for how long spings last in comparison to dampers but from what I've seen, springs seem to give out before dampers and in either case, they will sag and lose effectiveness over time. I would always change the two together and really look into a company like Swift to make some custom springs. They can make them to oe spec (if anyone can ever figure out what that is) if you don't want to change too much and still get a better reacting spring.