Suspension spec thread

[10Ten]

Rocky how have you managed to keep so few miles in your car for this long? isnt it your DD?

[Harry_Krishna]

Rocky how have you managed to keep so few miles in your car for this long? isnt it your DD?

Well, partial luck, and partial bad. Luck, was finding a job local, bad luck is months between jobs. And right now, it's back to the bad again

[Efren171]

what do you guys think about the FK coil overs?

[Slave IV]

what do you guys think about the FK coil overs?

I don't know much about them but would love to get some info to add to this thread. I believe they use Koni dampers but everything is custom spec'd to FK's requirements. They seem to be similar to KW's lineup but I really have no idea so hopefully someone with experience will chime in.

[mfbmike]

what do you guys think about the FK coil overs?

As far as I know, FK never made R32 specific coils and can be used for the entire mk5 line including the GTI/Jetta/Rabbit/etc. Which means, the (very) nose heavy R32 on a set of FK's could prove to be an uncomfortable ride due to spring rates - or so I've heard anyway.

mpearce was on a set of fk's for a long time. If your goal is just to get real low on a budget, FK's get the job done.

[Mr_Peach]

Alas, we'll have to depend on the well-seasoned Peach butt dyno for an answer

Quick recap:
########
I ran the Neuspeed RSB and endlinks on my otherwise-stock-suspension MkV R32 for a couple years. I reverted to the OEM RSB, retaining the Neuspeed endlinks. Then headed to Oregon Raceway Park (ORP).
########

Mini review:
ORP is a very 'technical' road course. Lots of elevation change, a mix of cambers, and a fair number of blind corners.

While getting situated and learning the course in the first run session, I noticed a tad more body roll (which at first felt a little like tire sidewall rolling over).

Once I learned the corners well enough to be looking 'up and out' (next corner) instead of 'down and in', the body roll sort of disappeared in my mind, and I proceeded to unlock turn-by-turn how fast I could go. My run group (indeed, all of the run groups) was at least 75% "first time at ORP", so we were all learning the course together. Why is this important in a suspension thread? I can't count the number of times I thought I had clear track in front of me, only to be cresting a rise at 90+ and finding a gaggle of folks on the blind side, braking way too early/hard!

This was a really good day not to be plagued with excess lift throttle oversteer. I lifted throttle a *lot* in response to traffic. My car was still pretty dead neutral. I had the tail come around a few times, but it was easier to 'catch' with a stock RSB than it was with the stiffer Neuspeed.

The one thing I haven't tried is mounting the Neuspeed RSB and setting it to 'less stiff'. It's conceivable to me that Neuspeed on 'less stiff' would be roughly equivalent to stock. But I don't really see the advantage in that.

At this point, I'll hang on to the Neuspeed RSB in storage. When I get around to updating dampers and springs, perhaps I'll want to revisit this experiment.

[10Ten]

The one thing I haven't tried is mounting the Neuspeed RSB and setting it to 'less stiff'. It's conceivable to me that Neuspeed on 'less stiff' would be roughly equivalent to stock. But I don't really see the advantage in that.

if i recall right, the soft mounting of the Neuspeed is still firmer than the OEM bar. but that's a purely subjective impression.

wish i coulda been there.

[Slave IV]

Quick recap:
########
I ran the Neuspeed RSB and endlinks on my otherwise-stock-suspension MkV R32 for a couple years. I reverted to the OEM RSB, retaining the Neuspeed endlinks. Then headed to Oregon Raceway Park (ORP).
########

Mini review:
ORP is a very 'technical' road course. Lots of elevation change, a mix of cambers, and a fair number of blind corners.

While getting situated and learning the course in the first run session, I noticed a tad more body roll (which at first felt a little like tire sidewall rolling over).

Once I learned the corners well enough to be looking 'up and out' (next corner) instead of 'down and in', the body roll sort of disappeared in my mind, and I proceeded to unlock turn-by-turn how fast I could go. My run group (indeed, all of the run groups) was at least 75% "first time at ORP", so we were all learning the course together. Why is this important in a suspension thread? I can't count the number of times I thought I had clear track in front of me, only to be cresting a rise at 90+ and finding a gaggle of folks on the blind side, braking way too early/hard!

This was a really good day not to be plagued with excess lift throttle oversteer. I lifted throttle a *lot* in response to traffic. My car was still pretty dead neutral. I had the tail come around a few times, but it was easier to 'catch' with a stock RSB than it was with the stiffer Neuspeed.

The one thing I haven't tried is mounting the Neuspeed RSB and setting it to 'less stiff'. It's conceivable to me that Neuspeed on 'less stiff' would be roughly equivalent to stock. But I don't really see the advantage in that.

At this point, I'll hang on to the Neuspeed RSB in storage. When I get around to updating dampers and springs, perhaps I'll want to revisit this experiment.

if i recall right, the soft mounting of the Neuspeed is still firmer than the OEM bar. but that's a purely subjective impression.

wish i coulda been there.

Thanks for the update, Mr_Peach...I always believed that driving school is the best mod you can do for any car you drive and testimonies like this are great to hear

I was wondering why Neuspeed doesn't provide info on how much their bar increases stiffness (again, this info is usually available from other manufactures for most other cars I've looked into them for and it seems to be a trend for MkV R32 parts..maybe the companies are noticing that MKV R32 owners don't care or ask these questions and just throw them money for new parts so why bother providing the info?...One of the main reasons I started this thread was to change this mentality). All aftermarket sway bars I've seen that do provide numbers increase the stiffness significantly at any setting, fwiw.

*EDIT - just for example, I checked the numbers on the sway bars I have for my S4 and they are 140% stiffer at soft setting and 169% stiffer at hard setting.

As far as I know, FK never made R32 specific coils and can be used for the entire mk5 line including the GTI/Jetta/Rabbit/etc. Which means, the (very) nose heavy R32 on a set of FK's could prove to be an uncomfortable ride due to spring rates - or so I've heard anyway.

mpearce was on a set of fk's for a long time. If your goal is just to get real low on a budget, FK's get the job done.

Thanks for the extra info mfbmike When I searched their site, it looked like they have several tiers of options depending on what you are after but they do seem to be for a wide range of models, regardless of the weight/engine so that is always a red flag to me when a suspension company doesn't take those important things into account.

[motrrrpsycho]

Mr. Peach, I forget - do you have the Haldex controller with switch? I do, and feel that on race mode, the way it keeps the rear axles engaged under braking really helps with braking stability. I'm not completely sure about throttle lift, but I -think- it helps there too. Before I had this, I felt like my rear end would get kind of loose and floaty feeling and felt like it tried to come around on my a couple of times under throttle lift and braking in a strait line on the street, but never since then (while going strait). I have my Neuspeed bar on the stiff setting and the only time I have experience any major throttle lift oversteer is my one track day at PIR last year on T6 when I accelerated through it as hard as I could till I started to -just- push the front and then lifted. It was accidental the first time, then I did it on purpose several times after that which was great fun for me (maybe not so much for my instructor tho... ). I'm looking forward to trying ORP in near future!

[vdubnhead]

what do you guys think about the FK coil overs?

check in the PSU build thread link...pretty sure he has the FK silverlines. he's a poke n stance guy and loves the rubbing. sorry 'drew, you know i you.

[Mr_Peach]

Mr. Peach, I forget - do you have the Haldex controller with switch? I do, and feel that on race mode, the way it keeps the rear axles engaged under braking really helps with braking stability. I'm not completely sure about throttle lift, but I -think- it helps there too.

I do, and I agree it helps with braking stability, and just feeling 'more AWD'.

My notes from July 08:

I just came back from a test drive, running my usual set of cloverleafs. Had traffic for the first couple reps, and I couldn't get the phrase, "negative Ghost rider, the pattern is full" out of my head......

Add me to the list of folks who think 'comp' rocks. It's a little hard to describe, but it's like some lash has been taken out of the drivetrain. The car just feels a little tighter and more throttle responsive when cornering than it did in 'sport'.

I may have made my 'lift throttle oversteer' a little worse. I am running neuspeed RSB and endlinks. When I say it's 'worse', it now seems more predictable, a little more 'connected' if you will. It's that tightness in the drivetrain again. So in one sense more predictable is better.

I thought then that the combo rotates a little more on lift throttle. In the 3 years I've run it, I've 'departed controlled flight' a handful of times, generally at high speed in a sweeper. Some were trailing throttle (hey, I've been known to flinch) and some were 'cause unknown'. Between that and TechEd, I decided to try reverting to OEM on the RSB.

[Mr_Peach]

Thanks for the update, Mr_Peach...I always believed that driving school is the best mod you can do for any car you drive and testimonies like this are great to hear
.

I agree with the sentiment.

For the record, I didn't get any in car instruction this trip. There were none advertised for this event; you had to be qualified 'solo' to register. They were short handed, and the only way I could guarantee some instruction would have been to jump in an instructors car. Two problems there; I get carsick, and I might have missed my session due to overlap.

I improved by taking time to learn the track slow, comparing notes in the paddock with others about what was working for them in which turns, stuff like that. Finally, I fell back on a time-honored tradition: pass everybody (safely) who drove too slow, find somebody driving smooth & fast, follow them and let them teach you a few tricks!

[Slave IV]

Anytime you are on the track and can evaluate your car's handling characteristics and your own skills at the limits, I think you are learning whether you are officially in "driver's school" or not...and that is a good thing...

[Ryan E.]

Very nice, it seems that you brought some balance back to the car.

I find that the back will come out so far and the haldex just keeps it right there as long as you stay on throttle, it's kinda cool when you feel the rear end pushing you out of the turn or exit.

Quick recap:
########
I ran the Neuspeed RSB and endlinks on my otherwise-stock-suspension MkV R32 for a couple years. I reverted to the OEM RSB, retaining the Neuspeed endlinks. Then headed to Oregon Raceway Park (ORP).
########

Mini review:
ORP is a very 'technical' road course. Lots of elevation change, a mix of cambers, and a fair number of blind corners.

While getting situated and learning the course in the first run session, I noticed a tad more body roll (which at first felt a little like tire sidewall rolling over).

Once I learned the corners well enough to be looking 'up and out' (next corner) instead of 'down and in', the body roll sort of disappeared in my mind, and I proceeded to unlock turn-by-turn how fast I could go. My run group (indeed, all of the run groups) was at least 75% "first time at ORP", so we were all learning the course together. Why is this important in a suspension thread? I can't count the number of times I thought I had clear track in front of me, only to be cresting a rise at 90+ and finding a gaggle of folks on the blind side, braking way too early/hard!

This was a really good day not to be plagued with excess lift throttle oversteer. I lifted throttle a *lot* in response to traffic. My car was still pretty dead neutral. I had the tail come around a few times, but it was easier to 'catch' with a stock RSB than it was with the stiffer Neuspeed.

The one thing I haven't tried is mounting the Neuspeed RSB and setting it to 'less stiff'. It's conceivable to me that Neuspeed on 'less stiff' would be roughly equivalent to stock. But I don't really see the advantage in that.

At this point, I'll hang on to the Neuspeed RSB in storage. When I get around to updating dampers and springs, perhaps I'll want to revisit this experiment.

exactly, on race mode the rear diff engine brakes the car, providing better braking and handling. I need to get me a switch, I've been running in sport mode.

Mr. Peach, I forget - do you have the Haldex controller with switch? I do, and feel that on race mode, the way it keeps the rear axles engaged under braking really helps with braking stability. I'm not completely sure about throttle lift, but I -think- it helps there too.

That's what keeps every event fun, you're constantly learning no matter skill level

Anytime you are on the track and can evaluate your car's handling characteristics and your own skills at the limits, I think you are learning whether you are officially in "driver's school" or not...and that is a good thing...

a little teaser @Buttonwillow, tracking with Willangford making the pass a month ago:

[abeR]

wheres the vid Ryan????

[Ryan E.]

Just got the SD cards from Will, we got a few different positions this time and used both of his gopro's instead of my in car Canon D550. Going to try and make some time over the next week, got a lot going on with moving and work...

I'd love to see some WITW video action, one year I will make it

wheres the vid Ryan????

[abeR]

im interested how they came out , and where you positioned them.. looking to grab a bunch of WiTW footage..

[Ryan E.]

We did:

• front bumper, pretty low
• rear quarter behind passenger to catch the front wheels turning
• rear hatch, Will said the rear hatch was cool and captured the exhaust well.
• in car, on the headrest camera mount I have

I dig the front bumper cam a lot.

[motrrrpsycho]

a little teaser @Buttonwillow, tracking with Willangford making the pass a month ago:

Sweet pic, Ryan! Passing an Elise? Niiiiice! They let you take passengers? That's cool. That was strictly prohibited at the few events I have been at so far, aside from instructors riding with n00bs. My kids are too young now, but I figure they would prolly like to come with me when they are big enough to not need car seats any more.

This was the outing right after getting your cams installed, yeah? You still going to do a cam review post?

BTW - what's thing sticking out of your right lower grill?

[Slave IV]

BTW - what's thing sticking out of your right lower grill?

..One of the GoPro's he's been talking about...

And for the pic!

[Mr_Peach]

We did:

• front bumper, pretty low
• rear quarter behind passenger to catch the front wheels turning
• rear hatch, Will said the rear hatch was cool and captured the exhaust well.
• in car, on the headrest camera mount I have

I dig the front bumper cam a lot.

motrrrpsycho:
That's a bumper cam (GoPro).

abeR:
I'm messing with my vids right now (I have zero "post" skills, so I'm learning on the fly). I tried:

• front bumper, same position as Ryan - fun to watch, but not as tack sharp as I'd like. I think the AF caught a point on the pavement about six feet in front of car.
• passenger door, low. Watch the suspension work.
• rear quarter
• inside, passenger rear window, just above front headrest. Not bad, shows some cockpit stuff. Be sure to set metering to "spot".
• inside, straight down from sunroof in front of passenger headrest. Angled slightly left, this is consistently a great image. Also 'spot'.
• Outside, front of sunroof centered. OK, a tad boring.

I'll get them posted up, probably late this coming weekend.

[motrrrpsycho]

Oh - that's the bumper cam - cool. I assumed the GoPro on the driver side of the bumper was the "bumper cam".

[Mr_Peach]

Oh - that's the bumper cam - cool. I assumed the GoPro on the driver side of the bumper was the "bumper cam".

Sorry, jumped in too quick. Looks like the transponders they use at Buttonwillow.

[Slave IV]

Sorry, jumped in too quick. Looks like the transponders they use at Buttonwillow.

lol, ditto

[motrrrpsycho]

Oh, transponder heh - no worries. I started imagining maybe GoPro had an add on remote / tube shaped cam in a heat protective material specifically to stick through front grills or other small space / hot applications, but... never mind

back on the suspension topic - I'm still debating rather I want to try the GC coilover kit like Ryeboy or just try to do enough research to identify an alternative OE style replacement spring to get stiffer rates but stay as close to stock ride height as possible.

I was checking out the new VWR offerings through APR and noticed this blurb in their info on their sport springs:

VWR does not recommend sport springs on 4-Motion vehicles such as the Golf R and R32 as lowering the ride height from the factory does not offer a significant improvement and can even harm the ride and handling balance of these vehicles. For these vehicles the VWR Streetsport and Streetsport+ Coilover Systems are highly recommended.

And also it looks like they sell their basic coilover kits with progressive springs which they recommend for the street with linear springs as an upgrade / interchangeable option for the track:

VWR springs are delicately selected per each vehicle chassis' design and weight. VWR springs are power-coated blue with VWR Logos etched in and come standard as progressive springs. Progressive springs offer a comfortable daily driving experience on the street and offer excellent control over the bumps and sudden elevation changes seen on streets around the world.

For the track minded enthusiast, a full linear front and rear spring is available. Linear springs offer superior control on the track over progressive springs but do so at the cost of comfort on the street. These springs are designed to directly swap onto your StreetSport or StreetSport Plus suspension and are an excellent upgrade for anyone who frequents the track. Many VWR customers simply swap to the linear springs for a track day even and then back to the progressive springs when on the street.

[Slave IV]

VWR does not recommend sport springs on 4-Motion vehicles such as the Golf R and R32 as lowering the ride height from the factory does not offer a significant improvement and can even harm the ride and handling balance of these vehicles. For these vehicles the VWR Streetsport and Streetsport+ Coilover Systems are highly recommended.

LOL, awesome!

[motrrrpsycho]

Oh - not trying to say "neener neener, I have the right idea and this proves it" or any such thing - not by any stretch - so hope it didn't come off that way! Obviously allot of people have done coilover kits or lowering springs and been very happy with them. I just seem to have a slightly different take or different goal in mind - more of a performance street orientation than track (I'm weird) and was surprised to find this. Seems to be a different take on suspension mods than what you typically hear. Different strokes, right? Just sharing as an alternative perspective in case others have similar thoughts.

[Slave IV]

Haha nope...just interesting to hear that the people who have the most R&D on this car and platform say that about suspension setups for it. I still think the Ohlins are the way to go no matter what you are after, unless it is just going as low as possible.

[SilverSquirrel]

OP:
Anti roll bar stock specs:

Golf V R32: 22,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,0 (4-motion)

taken from this swaybar thread on the MKV forum: (other arb specs listed as well)
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showth...ght=fsb&page=7

[Slave IV]

OP:
Anti roll bar stock specs:

Golf V R32: 22,0 solid / 21,7 x 3,0 (4-motion)

taken from this swaybar thread on the MKV forum: (other arb specs listed as well)
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showth...ght=fsb&page=7

Awesome, thanks!

[Fast1one]

Haha nope...just interesting to hear that the people who have the most R&D on this car and platform say that about suspension setups for it. I still think the Ohlins are the way to go no matter what you are after, unless it is just going as low as possible.

I'm glad I decided to wait on my suspension install as APR has confirmed my suspicions that lowering the R will likely make the handling worse. I'm ok with sacrificing a small amount of performance for looks as a few MM lower won't be too bad, but I will wait on the H2sport spindles (if they ever get released!) until I throw on my suspension. Hopefully they have some improvement for the MKV R platform.

I was starring at my suspension the other day and decided against doing anything for now. Looking at the stock LCA, its pretty obvious why it won't make a big difference: The LCA is already pretty parallel to the ground on the stock suspension.

BTW, does anyone know if the MKV GTIs share the same spindle design? It is my understanding that the MKIV R32, along with the MK1 Audi TT, have an upgraded spindle design compared to the regular golf and GTI variants. The R32 had a steel version while the Audi TT was aluminum. However, speaking to one of my friends he seems to think that the MKVs had the same spindle design across all variations.

I don't have access to a MKV golf or GTI to poke my head under there. Anyone know for sure?

[Slave IV]

I'm glad I decided to wait on my suspension install as APR has confirmed my suspicions that lowering the R will likely make the handling worse. I'm ok with sacrificing a small amount of performance for looks as a few MM lower won't be too bad, but I will wait on the H2sport spindles (if they ever get released!) until I throw on my suspension. Hopefully they have some improvement for the MKV R platform.

I was starring at my suspension the other day and decided against doing anything for now. Looking at the stock LCA, its pretty obvious why it won't make a big difference: The LCA is already pretty parallel to the ground on the stock suspension.

BTW, does anyone know if the MKV GTIs share the same spindle design? It is my understanding that the MKIV R32, along with the MK1 Audi TT, have an upgraded spindle design compared to the regular golf and GTI variants. The R32 had a steel version while the Audi TT was aluminum. However, speaking to one of my friends he seems to think that the MKVs had the same spindle design across all variations.

I don't have access to a MKV golf or GTI to poke my head under there. Anyone know for sure?

You can get Passat Control Arms and Spindles, which are aluminum and will reduce your unsprung weight by around 5lbs per wheel. TT parts will give you camber adjustment but also widen your track (front only). Details found in this thread.

[Fast1one]

You can get Passat Control Arms and Spindles, which are aluminum and will reduce your unsprung weight by around 5lbs per wheel. TT parts will give you camber adjustment but also widen your track (front only). Details found in this thread.

Not looking to reduce unsprung weight, though that's not a bad thing. Rather, I want to improve the geometry of the front suspension by lowering the LCA mounting point on the spindle. This would effectively raise the roll center, allowing me to go lower without negatively affecting the performance of the vehicle.

Peak under the car and look at the LCA. For McPherson strut suspensions, you really don't want to lower the car further than when the LCA is parallel to the ground. Lower the suspension further and the roll center will drop much faster than the center of gravity will, increasing the roll couple and causing the car to roll MORE while turning. In extreme cases, the roll center could be located below the ground and the distance between the roll center and center of gravity will be immense. This is why handling could get worse even if the C.G. gets lower.

I have read in some places that the MK2 Audi TT spindles are an improvement over the MKV Golf spindles. But I have no way of knowing if people are just making assumptions based on the A4 (MKIV) platforms, where the Audi TT and R32 had improved suspension geometry to lower the car more than the standard Golf. VAG achieved this in the A4 platform with different spindles:

http://audittmk1.blogspot.com/2009/0...s-how-bad.html

[Slave IV]

Not looking to reduce unsprung weight, though that's not a bad thing. Rather, I want to improve the geometry of the front suspension by lowering the LCA mounting point on the spindle. This would effectively raise the roll center, allowing me to go lower without negatively affecting the performance of the vehicle.

Peak under the car and look at the LCA. For McPherson strut suspensions, you really don't want to lower the car further than when the LCA is parallel to the ground. Lower the suspension further and the roll center will drop much faster than the center of gravity will, increasing the roll couple and causing the car to roll MORE while turning. In extreme cases, the roll center could be located below the ground and the distance between the roll center and center of gravity will be immense. This is why handling could get worse even if the C.G. gets lower.

I have read in some places that the MK2 Audi TT spindles are an improvement over the MKV Golf spindles. But I have no way of knowing if people are just making assumptions based on the A4 (MKIV) platforms, where the Audi TT and R32 had improved suspension geometry to lower the car more than the standard Golf. VAG achieved this in the A4 platform with different spindles:

http://audittmk1.blogspot.com/2009/0...s-how-bad.html

Well, you are sparking more good discussion and things to think about/research on. I feel like the experts probably already thought of these things and that is why VWR and Ohlins both agree that the best way to improve handling on this car is to improve the components but not the geometry of the suspension. Please post any further findings you come up with though.

[Fast1one]

Most well versed suspension gurus will tell you the same thing. I learned the parallel LCA rule back when I owned my previous car. I have been pretty much riding on the hope that H2Sport will release their sport spindles for the MKV platform. Otherwise, I'll just install my coilovers, lower the car slightly for aesthetics and call it a day