Suspension spec thread

[abeR]

I've had 2 sets of SHS fail after a weekend at the dragon.



2 years in a row


Yay

[BlixaBargeld]

Or just come to Waterfest we could meet somewhere

[ryeboy]

Or just come to Waterfest we could meet somewhere

Waterfest is a good idea, but alas I leave for Germany on the 21st. After I get back, I'll have some time as the wife and our boy are at her folks for 2 weeks.

[BlixaBargeld]

Greetings to the Vaterland !

[yellow bunny]

Wow, just read through all of the posts. I love the information! Many moons ago, I too started on this suspension trek also. Graduate school put a pause to it. Here is a link to my old post http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...pe-suspension!

I am now ready to resume playing.

BTW, as in my link: Factory rates were measured at 180 lbs up front and 250lbs in the rear.

My current setup, non-coil over: 250 front and 375 rear with rear NSB at hardest setting

Plans are: coil over (not sure which), H2sport spindles, passat aluminum LCA with H2port bearings, H2sport camber plates, Tyrol sport subframe bushing kit, RB aluminum front calipers and 2 piece front & rear rotors.

Manny

[BlixaBargeld]

Interesting that the rates are so different. One higher in the front the other in the back .... Hmmm

[ryeboy]

Wow, just read through all of the posts. I love the information! Many moons ago, I too started on this suspension trek also. Graduate school put a pause to it. Here is a link to my old post http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...pe-suspension!

I am now ready to resume playing.

BTW, as in my link: Factory rates were measured at 180 lbs up front and 250lbs in the rear.

My current setup, non-coil over: 250 front and 375 rear with rear NSB at hardest setting

Plans are: coil over (not sure which), H2sport spindles, passat aluminum LCA with H2port bearings, H2sport camber plates, Tyrol sport subframe bushing kit, RB aluminum front calipers and 2 piece front & rear rotors.

Manny

Manny, Very interesting thread. Shame it petered out 2 years ago. When I have more time, I'll chime in with some more thoughts.

Thanks for sharing!

Jay

[yellow bunny]

Interesting that the rates are so different. One higher in the front the other in the back .... Hmmm

Spent some hours at Shine Racing. Mr. Shine generously shared his expertise! Measurements were taken, ftg, roll center figured...springs measured etc. We tested with/ without OEM and with NSB RSBs.

I was surprised to learn that the front springs were a softer rate as compared to rear.

I didnt mention on here but I'm running Koni Sports at present.

[BlixaBargeld]

Both of you are staying close to stock height and the rear spring rates are almost identical 350 and 375 but the front is anything but 250 vs 450. Wonder if one of you could try the other option 250>450 or 450>250 and see what the difference feels like.

[yellow bunny]

Both of you are staying close to stock height and the rear spring rates are almost identical 350 and 375 but the front is anything but 250 vs 450. Wonder if one of you could try the other option 250>450 or 450>250 and see what the difference feels like.

I am planning to experiment, I am planning to see how Jay makes out. I need a little more time to piece together some parts.

I just Purchased a used PSS 10 from the classifieds. So the PSS springs will be set aside. I think Bilstein makes a quality damper but the spring rates that come with the kit are too soft 250F and 285R, IMO for what I'm looking for. I think this is what is hindering to the most part some people's opinion of the PSS system.

Things left to buy: camber plates, sport hubs, LCA spherical bearings.

[BlixaBargeld]

Maybe the front springs could be used for a test on the GC/Oehlins set up ( as this is the same rate of your set up) .....

[ryeboy]

Both of you are staying close to stock height and the rear spring rates are almost identical 350 and 375 but the front is anything but 250 vs 450. Wonder if one of you could try the other option 250>450 or 450>250 and see what the difference feels like.

Easier said than done

Agreed that it would be an interesting experiment.

[ryeboy]

I am planning to experiment, I am planning to see how Jay makes out. I need a little more time to piece together some parts.

I just Purchased a used PSS 10 from the classifieds. So the PSS springs will be set aside. I think Bilstein makes a quality damper but the spring rates that come with the kit are too soft 250F and 285R, IMO for what I'm looking for. I think this is what is hindering to the most part some people's opinion of the PSS system.

Things left to buy: camber plates, sport hubs, LCA spherical bearings.

Interesting stuff.

Curious to know: why sport hubs if you plan to stay near stock ride height?

[yellow bunny]

Interesting stuff.

Curious to know: why sport hubs if you plan to stay near stock ride height?

Ah, I understand your question. I am not looking necessarily into any specific height.

What my goal it overall improve the handling of the vehicle. The sport hubs will allow me to set the geometry, as you know, of the suspension so that the roll center in not increased. This will allow for the old theory of lower center of gravity to hold true in improving the car's handling.

So my car will end up being lowered, but lowered correctly.

[ryeboy]

Ah, I understand your question. I am not looking necessarily into any specific height.

What my goal it overall improve the handling of the vehicle. The sport hubs will allow me to set the geometry, as you know, of the suspension so that the roll center in not increased. This will allow for the old theory of lower center of gravity to hold true in improving the car's handling.

So my car will end up being lowered, but lowered correctly.

Ah, so. I get it: flexible setup options. Nice.

I have the R back since last evening with the 10" 350 lb/in springs installed. Now sitting about 25 1/4" front and back (dialed up the fronts a tad from "full down" and dialed down the rear perches about an inch from "full up"). Given what you shared with us about stock spring rates and rear being > than front rates, perhaps it explains why I needed 10" springs in back to balance out the stiffer (7" 450 lb/in) springs in front. After horsing around today to and from work, I'm not sure I'd want to reduce the front rates: they provide nice resistance to brake dive and some roll resistance (even with the OEM fsb). Road irregularities are felt more than before but with the Ohlins they don't upset the chassis (or at least much less than with stock). The reduced unsprung weight likely also plays a factor in helping the suspension settle more quickly than before. Impacts in the rear are perhaps a tad more than stock, but again the impact is not harsh or jarring and the chassis settles almost instantly. I also feel much less of a tendency to "push" in turns but no sense that the back end was coming loose (of course with our wimpy OEM rsb). The car feels more alive, more planted, and begging for more speed. I would have been tempted to dial in a touch more damping/rebound into the Ohlins, but Tom told me to keep my paws off the damper knobs until I have another few hundred miles on it.

These impressions are all very preliminary and might change when I get to a track or with simply more seat time. Just thought I would toss 'em out there for discussion's sake.

[Slave IV]

Wow, just read through all of the posts. I love the information! Many moons ago, I too started on this suspension trek also. Graduate school put a pause to it. Here is a link to my old post http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...pe-suspension!

I am now ready to resume playing.

BTW, as in my link: Factory rates were measured at 180 lbs up front and 250lbs in the rear.

My current setup, non-coil over: 250 front and 375 rear with rear NSB at hardest setting

Plans are: coil over (not sure which), H2sport spindles, passat aluminum LCA with H2port bearings, H2sport camber plates, Tyrol sport subframe bushing kit, RB aluminum front calipers and 2 piece front & rear rotors.

Manny

Thanks for reading the thread and posting the info! Been waiting so long for that info and I figured someone had to know.

ryeboy, can't wait to hear how it goes when some of you can compare different setups...I agree that the different setups you mentioned are the ones I'd like to hear about and I'd add the VWR setups into the mix as well if anyone has those on their car to compare.

[yellow bunny]

Ah, so. I get it: flexible setup options. Nice.

I have the R back since last evening with the 10" 350 lb/in springs installed. Now sitting about 25 1/4" front and back (dialed up the fronts a tad from "full down" and dialed down the rear perches about an inch from "full up"). Given what you shared with us about stock spring rates and rear being > than front rates, perhaps it explains why I needed 10" springs in back to balance out the stiffer (7" 450 lb/in) springs in front. After horsing around today to and from work, I'm not sure I'd want to reduce the front rates: they provide nice resistance to brake dive and some roll resistance (even with the OEM fsb). Road irregularities are felt more than before but with the Ohlins they don't upset the chassis (or at least much less than with stock). The reduced unsprung weight likely also plays a factor in helping the suspension settle more quickly than before. Impacts in the rear are perhaps a tad more than stock, but again the impact is not harsh or jarring and the chassis settles almost instantly. I also feel much less of a tendency to "push" in turns but no sense that the back end was coming loose (of course with our wimpy OEM rsb). The car feels more alive, more planted, and begging for more speed. I would have been tempted to dial in a touch more damping/rebound into the Ohlins, but Tom told me to keep my paws off the damper knobs until I have another few hundred miles on it.

These impressions are all very preliminary and might change when I get to a track or with simply more seat time. Just thought I would toss 'em out there for discussion's sake.

ryeboy,
So do you still sense a bit of understeer? if so, I wonder if the NSB RSB may help further neutralize or cause subtle oversteer? That's is unless you prefer the safer understeer option. lol

SlaveIV,
thanks for your work here. As you can see in my post from years ago, I was met with resistance initially. I would love to receive further feedback from TechEd, even though I must read and re-read his posts due to the large amount of auto engineering and race experience jargon! lol
It is good information.

Now if I could get through to Mr. Shine, he is one tough person to get a hold of. He owns a cell phone, but I think it is only to state that he has one . I am sure that he will scald me for purchasing the Bilstein PSS system. He has mentioned that they are inferior dampners as compared to the Bilstein sports (even though I am not going with the PSS springs.)

[SilverSquirrel]

Now if I could get through to Mr. Shine, he is one tough person to get a hold of. He owns a cell phone, but I think it is only to state that he has one . I am sure that he will scald me for purchasing the Bilstein PSS system. He has mentioned that they are inferior dampners as compared to the Bilstein sports (even though I am not going with the PSS springs.)

I saw Dickie this spring. I was able to get thru to him at the shop, but only because he was there and recognized my caller ID (longtime customer) I drove down for a visit and consult. Hes really cut back the work hours and projects due to his health, but he is still working on a MKV suspension package.

Im pretty sure the Bilstein HD's I have in my A3 3.2 are damped WAY wrong for the heavy boat that is the A3 3.2Q. (3920 with 200lb driver, on drive on truck scale)

I had hoped he would be able to revalve the HDs for me, or help me with numbers. I had my rear springs out at the time, so we put them on his spring jig, and they measured out an honest 300 lb/in,: Dickie told my they were the stiffest mkv rear spring he has measured, stiffer than the R32. I havent had a chance to get him my front springs yet. He did think it was possible that the HD's were over damped on compression, and possibly underdamped on rebound, for the 3.2Q, but there would be a lot of trial and error / hit or miss with re-valving, and he doesnt do that these days, we just sort of left it at that, but i plan to follow up with him when I can.

anyway, you need to be REALLY persistant to get Mr Shines time and attention.

[yellow bunny]

I saw Dickie this spring. I was able to get thru to him at the shop, but only because he was there and recognized my caller ID (longtime customer) I drove down for a visit and consult. Hes really cut back the work hours and projects due to his health, but he is still working on a MKV suspension package.

Im pretty sure the Bilstein HD's I have in my A3 3.2 are damped WAY wrong for the heavy boat that is the A3 3.2Q. (3920 with 200lb driver, on drive on truck scale)

I had hoped he would be able to revalve the HDs for me, or help me with numbers. I had my rear springs out at the time, so we put them on his spring jig, and they measured out an honest 300 lb/in,: Dickie told my they were the stiffest mkv rear spring he has measured, stiffer than the R32. I havent had a chance to get him my front springs yet. He did think it was possible that the HD's were over damped on compression, and possibly underdamped on rebound, for the 3.2Q, but there would be a lot of trial and error / hit or miss with re-valving, and he doesnt do that these days, we just sort of left it at that, but i plan to follow up with him when I can.

anyway, you need to be REALLY persistant to get Mr Shines time and attention.

Squirrel, did you have a mk1 scirocco? I think I remember someone with same nickname from the old Walpole SRS, this would have been in the early to mid 1990s.

Anyhow, I know how difficult it is to get a hold of him.
300 is definitely unexpected in a similar vehicle. Curious to see what the fronts measure at?

If you do get in touch with Mr. Shine, tell him Manny says hello and is looking to setup sometime with him. I hope he is doing well.

[ryeboy]

ryeboy,
So do you still sense a bit of understeer? if so, I wonder if the NSB RSB may help further neutralize or cause subtle oversteer? That's is unless you prefer the safer understeer option. lol

There is probably some bit of understeer remaining, but I'm reluctant to play with the rsb just yet. I like to keep both rear tires on the tarmac--especially once I get the GenII Haldex installed. I really want to keep the suspension as "independent" as possible. In any case, the steering feel and chassis reaction to turn in has changed dramatically--in a good way. There is probably more optimizing (including an alignment) and spherical bearings, damper settings, etc. before I mess with sway bar rates.

[SilverSquirrel]

Squirrel, did you have a mk1 scirocco? .

not me. I had a silver coupe quattro, and a black 4000csq that Shine serviced in those days.
But I did have a MK2 rocco WAY back.

[Slave IV]

There is probably some bit of understeer remaining, but I'm reluctant to play with the rsb just yet. I like to keep both rear tires on the tarmac--especially once I get the GenII Haldex installed. I really want to keep the suspension as "independent" as possible. In any case, the steering feel and chassis reaction to turn in has changed dramatically--in a good way. There is probably more optimizing (including an alignment) and spherical bearings, damper settings, etc. before I mess with sway bar rates.

Good plan. Try using a slightly later apex on turns too...I haven't noticed much understeer and I get the rear to chirp a lot on turns with my stock everything car right now. Haldex controller is definitely going to be my next major mod before suspension or anything. I did just get the Tyrol subframe kit (thanks for the heads up!) and a VWR engine mount that will be going in soon.

[yellow bunny]

There is probably some bit of understeer remaining, but I'm reluctant to play with the rsb just yet. I like to keep both rear tires on the tarmac--especially once I get the GenII Haldex installed. I really want to keep the suspension as "independent" as possible. In any case, the steering feel and chassis reaction to turn in has changed dramatically--in a good way. There is probably more optimizing (including an alignment) and spherical bearings, damper settings, etc. before I mess with sway bar rates.

Very good, keep with your plans. I have the Haldex set at race mode at all times.

Squirell, very good. Maybe we have met maybe not. I had mk1 yellow GTI for awhile, that Dick helped me setup the suspension and turbo engine.

[abeR]

hey slave

I should have the SHS spring rates shortly. I am getting my kit rebuilt and KW suggested they can get me this info.


we will see.

[Slave IV]

hey slave

I should have the SHS spring rates shortly. I am getting my kit rebuilt and KW suggested they can get me this info.


we will see.

Awesome, thanks! Wonder why HPA can't just provide them though.

[abeR]

Awesome, thanks! Wonder why HPA can't just provide them though.

my only guess is they don't want to. or don't care to answer.


its like an illusion.

[Slave IV]

You're probably right. They said they were going to get all the rates for KW suspension including SHS almost a year ago but I haven't seen anything yet. Well, I won't say more because I don't want to get this thread deleted and I still want a haldex controller from them.

[VAD@HPA]

You're probably right. They said they were going to get all the rates for KW suspension including SHS almost a year ago but I haven't seen anything yet...

If I had the information I would share, I did request it as you asked.

...my guess is that KW does not want the information to be made public...dont know what else to say...

[abeR]

If I had the information I would share, I did request it as you asked.

...my guess is that KW does not want the information to be made public...dont know what else to say...

HPA introduced the SHS kit in 2004 with the MKIV R32, in an attempt to offer the PERFECT suspension solution for the enthusiast looking to gain better control at corner entry on high-speed sprints, yet use their car in the harsh real world environment. The SHS kit is built in the same factory as KW, but to HPA's valve, spring rate and ride height specifications. While not as low as some other suspension options, they are more compliant on the top end for our North American roads (and winters).


taken from here
http://forums.kilometermagazine.com/...for-MK6-Owners!
Im sure you can find the same paragraph many other places.

so the kits are built to your specifications - (as stated above - pulled from one of the group buy threads ) but you cant get this info?

( its like the crabby patty secret formula? )

either Keir misled everybody in these prior posts or you're not telling the whole story

I drank the HPA kool aid once or twice.. never again.





hows the fam?


always remember

a happy wife is a happy life.


sorry to take a dump in your thread slave.

[Slave IV]

Exactly, I figured HPA would know the specs on their "own" coilovers. I talked to some reps from KW a couple years ago and they were able to give me all the specs I wanted for another car I own, fwiw. Anyways, I'm over it and if anything, this info should help anyone who sells the kits and the community in general. I personally would never buy a suspension setup without knowing those basic details.

[JRutter]

Quick Ohlins VWSMI00 questions:

Can you retrofit the GC package later on down the road?

How hard is it to adjust the damping on the front struts? Do you do this at the top of the mount, through the top?

I'm really tempted to take off the coilovers and go to this with the oem euro springs that I already have.

{edit} I called Performance Shock and got answers.

So yes, you can get the GC sleeves, perches, and springs later on if you want, with ryeboy paving the way on rates and lengths.

They said that both front and rear were adjustable on the car, but I think he had descriptions of front and read mixed up when he was describing them.

They will have more in stock mid Aug.

[HPA motorsports 1]

Exactly, I figured HPA would know the specs on their "own" coilovers. I talked to some reps from KW a couple years ago and they were able to give me all the specs I wanted for another car I own, fwiw.

Slave,

I am sorry that my sales team was unable to deliver on your request. We don’t market our product with the rates as on the rear the spring is progressive and the tech details for the MK4 were defined a little over a half decade ago. That said, it is simple enough to extract the working rate and for the MK4 progressive spring, and the fronts unlike the MK5 and later are linear.

The MK4 R32

Front 515lb
Rear (progressive) working rate of 420lbs

I don’t get up here a lot these days, but feel free to IM me should you have further needs.

[Slave IV]

No apologies necessary..as i said, it was for your own benefit to provide info for the products you sell and I'm not trying to figure it out. If you can provide clear numbers someday, great...otherwise, don't worry about it.
Thanks!

[motrrrpsycho]

I have the R back since last evening with the 10" 350 lb/in springs installed. Now sitting about 25 1/4" front and back (dialed up the fronts a tad from "full down" and dialed down the rear perches about an inch from "full up"). Given what you shared with us about stock spring rates and rear being > than front rates, perhaps it explains why I needed 10" springs in back to balance out the stiffer (7" 450 lb/in) springs in front. After horsing around today to and from work, I'm not sure I'd want to reduce the front rates: they provide nice resistance to brake dive and some roll resistance (even with the OEM fsb). Road irregularities are felt more than before but with the Ohlins they don't upset the chassis (or at least much less than with stock). The reduced unsprung weight likely also plays a factor in helping the suspension settle more quickly than before. Impacts in the rear are perhaps a tad more than stock, but again the impact is not harsh or jarring and the chassis settles almost instantly. I also feel much less of a tendency to "push" in turns but no sense that the back end was coming loose (of course with our wimpy OEM rsb). The car feels more alive, more planted, and begging for more speed. I would have been tempted to dial in a touch more damping/rebound into the Ohlins, but Tom told me to keep my paws off the damper knobs until I have another few hundred miles on it.

These impressions are all very preliminary and might change when I get to a track or with simply more seat time. Just thought I would toss 'em out there for discussion's sake.

Jay - any updates with more seat time? I have heard from a shop that has installed them that the VWR coils do NOT retain stock ride height - they will lower you as much as anything else out there - so I would rather get KW's based on price, plus found out they have spacers available, plus overall user reviews (have found no reviews on VWRs so far) -OR- do the GC kit ala ryeboy

[ryeboy]

Quick Ohlins VWSMI00 questions:

Can you retrofit the GC package later on down the road?

How hard is it to adjust the damping on the front struts? Do you do this at the top of the mount, through the top?

I'm really tempted to take off the coilovers and go to this with the oem euro springs that I already have.

{edit} I called Performance Shock and got answers.

So yes, you can get the GC sleeves, perches, and springs later on if you want, with ryeboy paving the way on rates and lengths.

They said that both front and rear were adjustable on the car, but I think he had descriptions of front and read mixed up when he was describing them.

They will have more in stock mid Aug.

Yes. The struts and and dampers are adjustable at the bottom. Easily accessible. Very nice feature.

Though happy with my set up, I think a simpler way to go may be to simply change out the OEM struts/dampers for the Ohlins and use the OEM springs. You probably would get 80% of the benefit of my system without the coilover issues.

Jay - any updates with more seat time? I have heard from a shop that has installed them that the VWR coils do NOT retain stock ride height - they will lower you as much as anything else out there - so I would rather get KW's based on price, plus found out they have spacers available, plus overall user reviews (have found no reviews on VWRs so far) -OR- do the GC kit ala ryeboy

Not so much. I've been in Frankfurt for the last 8 days. I have been able to determine that even on the worst roads in NYC (namely, the Van Wyck, certain stretches of the GCP, the Belt Parkway, and the Cross Island Parkway, Cross Bronx Expressway, etc.) the suspension set up tolerates those abusive surfaces relatively well. The higher spring rates certainly make some impacts, pavement dips, etc feel stronger than stock, but the car never felt unsettled. I've got a meeting in Bridgehampton starting Monday to which I'll drive. That should give me some time to form impressions on more civilized roadways.