Suspension spec thread

[ryeboy]

Dumb Q:

What's the typical 'wear out' path for OEM?

I'm sitting at about 80K (and of course 4.5 years) and assuming that my OEM dampers might be getting tired.

If I got new dampers (Ohlins, for sake of argument), are my stock OEM springs still good to go? I mean, ignoring any desire for stiffer / linear / lower, do springs wear out at the same rate as dampers? Differently?

Good question, Mr. P. I'm no suspension expert, but my guess is that springs may settle a bit over time (that is the case for me) but that they otherwise retain their primary capabilities. When I purchased my Ohlins, Beau at Performance Shock talked me out of staying with stock springs--arguing that it would be a waste paired with such a capable damper. Jeff at Ohlins USA confirmed this (I was worried about changing spring rates without revalving--Jeff told me not to worry). Both suggested looking at linear springs with a somewhat higher rates. Two solutions seem to be out there: Tom at H2Sports and Ground Control (talk to Donovan) make conversion kits that allow linear race springs to be used on Ohlins dampers for our vehicles. Tom's kit looks really well thought out but pricier. I will receive the GC kit and springs next week and I'll report back. I'm going to give Eibachs (450 lb front and 350 rear) at stock ride height a try.

[Slave IV]

Good question, Mr. P. I'm no suspension expert, but my guess is that springs may settle a bit over time (that is the case for me) but that they otherwise retain their primary capabilities. When I purchased my Ohlins, Beau at Performance Shock talked me out of staying with stock springs--arguing that it would be a waste paired with such a capable damper. Jeff at Ohlins USA confirmed this (I was worried about changing spring rates without revalving--Jeff told me not to worry). Both suggested looking at linear springs with a somewhat higher rates. Two solutions seem to be out there: Tom at H2Sports and Ground Control (talk to Donovan) make conversion kits that allow linear race springs to be used on Ohlins dampers for our vehicles. Tom's kit looks really well thought out but pricier. I will receive the GC kit and springs next week and I'll report back. I'm going to give Eibachs (450 lb front and 350 rear) at stock ride height a try.

Nice info...looking forward to hearing your impressions when you get this done since I'm probably going with a very similar route. Are you trying to go a bit lower too or stay at stock height?

[Slave IV]

Just an interesting observation...I still have received NO information about most the coilover setups for the MkV R32 after several months of trying to provide this information for everyone.

I recently found that the coilovers I was waiting to be ready for my B5 S4 have just been released:


There is no group buy asking people to pay up, there is no "hype" at all about them...just there for people who happened to notice they are finally available. I emailed PSI with some questions and I got an immediate response with details about spring rates and anything else I asked about. That is the way companies should operate and that is standard for most quality products for anything I buy. It is very strange to me why so many people here don't seem to care about the basic info that should come with the products you buy and it's even more puzzling why it's so hard to get the info for products on this car even if you do care.
Just sayin'
I can't wait to get these things on my S4!

[JRutter]

Bump to keep the quest alive.

[Harry_Krishna]

Bump to keep the quest alive.

Bump from me too, as I need more info on the compression/rebound settings for my KW V3 coilovers.

But damn! I bought my V3's about 4 years ago. Those sweet Club Sports with camber plates weren't out back then. Hell, NO camber plates at all, were around then, argh!!!!

[Slave IV]

Bump to keep the quest alive.

Bump from me too, as I need more info on the compression/rebound settings for my KW V3 coilovers.

But damn! I bought my V3's about 4 years ago. Those sweet Club Sports with camber plates weren't out back then. Hell, NO camber plates at all, were around then, argh!!!!

Thanks! Let's get more info!...I hope some vendors who read this can chime in with whatever they know since it should help their business as well as everyone interested in suspension upgrades. I can only think of one good reason why they wouldn't disclose this information and it's not a good one but I know KW and other companies listed here are known for quality products that are well thought out so comeon!

[VAD@HPA]

...I hope some vendors who read this can chime in with whatever they know since it should help their business as well as everyone interested in suspension upgrades...

Agreed...when I receive the KW info, I will post it...

[Slave IV]

Agreed...when I receive the KW info, I will post it...

[motrrrpsycho]

When I purchased my Ohlins, Beau at Performance Shock talked me out of staying with stock springs--arguing that it would be a waste paired with such a capable damper. Jeff at Ohlins USA confirmed this (I was worried about changing spring rates without revalving--Jeff told me not to worry). Both suggested looking at linear springs with a somewhat higher rates. Two solutions seem to be out there: Tom at H2Sports and Ground Control (talk to Donovan) make conversion kits that allow linear race springs to be used on Ohlins dampers for our vehicles. Tom's kit looks really well thought out but pricier. I will receive the GC kit and springs next week and I'll report back. I'm going to give Eibachs (450 lb front and 350 rear) at stock ride height a try.

Hey Jay, so if I understand correctly - you did not do an Ohlins coil over kit, but just bought Ohlins shocks and are pairing those with Eibach springs - but this requires a special adapter since you are getting constant rate springs?

I'm interested in a spring upgrade and would also like to stay stock height and was thinking about the same for spring weights. I just got Koni FSD shocks last summer and am pretty happy with those. I am undecided as to constant or progressive rate springs though - as I want to remain more street set up focused then track and drive hard on (what can be) bumpy back roads, so I want some initial compliance / don't want my springs to beat me up too much. If I were to go constant rate though, any idea if I would need some sort of adaptor like you are talking about? H2Sports site is apparently down for maintenance, but I'll check out ground control and give Eibach a call to ask, but just wondered what infos / thoughts you might have. Thanks!

[motrrrpsycho]

Oh - I guess you are talking about this:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/...p/II=717/CA=65

This MKV GTI kit fits, yeah? And the Eibach springs are included it looks like - nice!

[ryeboy]

Oh - I guess you are talking about this:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/...p/II=717/CA=65

This MKV GTI kit fits, yeah? And the Eibach springs are included it looks like - nice!

Yep. That's the one. Here is what it looks like installed on the Ohlins.

[IMG][/IMG]

You remove the spring perch and the sleeve slides into place and then it works pretty much like any other coilover. The GC kit is reasonably solid, but there is some tweaking needed. For example, I needed to wrap the strut body with about 2 layers of 3M electrical tape to make the sleeve fit snuggly. I'm a bit stuck right now b/c the upper strut bearing adaptor is 0.75 mm too small to fit over the stock strut bearing. I'm waiting for a replacement. To their credit, GC has been extremely responsive.

Some questions to those more wise than me in suspension matters:

I'm still a bit leery about the spring length. GC recommended a 7" spring at 450 lb/in for the front and 350 lb/in for the rear. For the purposes of the photo of the front strut, I've got the lower spring perch at its max height. But with ~2200 lbs of front weight sitting on 900 lbs of springs--should I expect a compression of 2.44 in? This would leave me with about 1.8 inches of suspension travel. That doesn't seem like much, but then again, I don't know what the stock suspension travel is either. Comments?

At the highest setting, there is also no spring precompression. This seems like it would limit the ability of the suspension to "droop" or extend to maintain tire contact to about 2.5 in as well. The OEM springs are highly compressed under the strut bearing even before being loaded by chassis weight. I imagine this would increase the ability of the inner tire to maintain road contact during a turn or to extend to maintain road contact during a dip in the road surface. Am I thinking about this correctly?

What about front versus rear spring rates? Some seem to think the rear should be sprung more highly than the front. Whereas some kits seem to maintain a similar ratio to what I have (e.g., clubsports). Any insights into this?

[Ryan E.]

7" inch sounds about right, I believe that's what my KW's are at. I hear for 450lb and higher you want 7" or shorter, any longer and the ride height would be effected. How long is the rear?

I think that's a good rate, from what I've read these dampers can handle 30% more than stock. I'm not sure what stock is, but it looks like you have Ohlins blessing to run some decent rates. Al Walker and others had issues running too crazy of a rear rate: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...1#post67411426

I would go no higher than 450 in the rear, my 400's feel pretty stiff already. I could see a range of 450-550max up front.

When you say there's no spring compression at the highest setting, is that when they're on the car? You should check with your GC guy on that, it's seems that you would want some preload.

Overall they look very nice

[ryeboy]

7" inch sounds about right, I believe that's what my KW's are at. I hear for 450lb and higher you want 7" or shorter, any longer and the ride height would be effected. How long is the rear?

I think that's a good rate, from what I've read these dampers can handle 30% more than stock. I'm not sure what stock is, but it looks like you have Ohlins blessing to run some decent rates. Al Walker and others had issues running too crazy of a rear rate: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...1#post67411426

I would go no higher than 450 in the rear, my 400's feel pretty stiff already. I could see a range of 450-550max up front.

When you say there's no spring compression at the highest setting, is that when they're on the car? You should check with your GC guy on that, it's seems that you would want some preload.

Overall they look very nice

Thanks Ryan. They are not yet mounted, so for sure they will be compressed upon mounting. The rear springs are also 7" which seems shorter than some kits. I calculated the front spring rate to be about 300 lb/in based on some dubious calculations--so I'm closer to 50% over stock.

I have plenty of room to lower the car if needed, so I could probably get away with taller springs, but it is odd that for each increase in length, you only seem to get only a small increase in usable travel distance (e.g., 450 lb/in Eibachs: 7" = 4.2" travel; 8" = 4.7"). Curious...

[Slave IV]

Thanks for the recent contributions

I'm curious as to who came up with those rates as well...Ground Control?

Ryan E, do you have aftermarket sways? It still makes logical sense to me to not use sways and go with stiffer spring rates in the rear than the front.

With all this info around...we still have no answers about the stock setup huh? Man, I think that info would really help us come up with better solutions.

Also, has anyone inquired with Swift Springs about custom springs and rates yet? I know they would be able to come up with some answers and a great solution if someone sent them stock springs for analysis.

Those Ohlins look beautiful by the way

[Harry_Krishna]

I wish I could remember his Vortex ID on here. I think his name was Mark? He owns and races (or used to race, been a few years) a super tricked out MKIV R32, and lived in Louisiana somewhere. He at one time, had been the fastest (SCCA) R32 in the country, and came close to doing great at the Solo II Nationals and Pro Solo. He might have some good insight on the specs we need.

Another person would be Don Ishtook. He owns a shop here in Texas, and has been racing Audi, Porsche, and VW's for many years. He is the one who got SCCA to finally allow DSG in pro racing. It had been considered as an automatic trans, which is not allowed.



http://www.istooks.com/

[Ryan E.]

No aftermarket sway bars on my car...

Thanks for the recent contributions

I'm curious as to who came up with those rates as well...Ground Control?

Ryan E, do you have aftermarket sways? It still makes logical sense to me to not use sways and go with stiffer spring rates in the rear than the front.

With all this info around...we still have no answers about the stock setup huh? Man, I think that info would really help us come up with better solutions.

Also, has anyone inquired with Swift Springs about custom springs and rates yet? I know they would be able to come up with some answers and a great solution if someone sent them stock springs for analysis.

Those Ohlins look beautiful by the way

[ryeboy]

Thanks for the recent contributions

I'm curious as to who came up with those rates as well...Ground Control?

Ryan E, do you have aftermarket sways? It still makes logical sense to me to not use sways and go with stiffer spring rates in the rear than the front.

With all this info around...we still have no answers about the stock setup huh? Man, I think that info would really help us come up with better solutions.

Also, has anyone inquired with Swift Springs about custom springs and rates yet? I know they would be able to come up with some answers and a great solution if someone sent them stock springs for analysis.

Those Ohlins look beautiful by the way

Those rates were arrived at by talking to several people: Beau at Performance Shock; Dick Shine at SRSVW; and Jeff at Ohlins. All seemed to agree that 400 was the minimum they would consider and Dick Shine was talking about 500 lbs front (with Bilsteins). I figured why not start at 450 as 500 lbs seemed like more of a race set up than a dual purpose car. My only concern was the spring length and there GC went to great lengths to convince me to give 7" a try. For the rear rates, there was some consensus. Beau of PS and GC thought running the same rate springs or higher out back would make things squirrely. I knew that Ryan's clubsports ran lower rates on the back springs, so 350 rears seemed like a reasonable match with 450 lb fronts. Again, my only leap of faith was the spring length: 7" seems too short, but then again GC has set up plenty of mkV vehicles so it's not as though they have no experience to offer. Time will tell.

Now that I'm this far into the experiment, I'm asking myself why I didn't just stick with the stock springs?

On the other hand, I've learned a fair amount about suspension set ups and I'm always up for an experiment that doesn't put my life at risk

[Slave IV]

Those rates were arrived at by talking to several people: Beau at Performance Shock; Dick Shine at SRSVW; and Jeff at Ohlins. All seemed to agree that 400 was the minimum they would consider and Dick Shine was talking about 500 lbs front (with Bilsteins). I figured why not start at 450 as 500 lbs seemed like more of a race set up than a dual purpose car. My only concern was the spring length and there GC went to great lengths to convince me to give 7" a try. For the rear rates, there was some consensus. Beau of PS and GC thought running the same rate springs or higher out back would make things squirrely. I knew that Ryan's clubsports ran lower rates on the back springs, so 350 rears seemed like a reasonable match with 450 lb fronts. Again, my only leap of faith was the spring length: 7" seems too short, but then again GC has set up plenty of mkV vehicles so it's not as though they have no experience to offer. Time will tell.

Now that I'm this far into the experiment, I'm asking myself why I didn't just stick with the stock springs?

On the other hand, I've learned a fair amount about suspension set ups and I'm always up for an experiment that doesn't put my life at risk

Thanks ryeboy! I'm looking forward to hearing your review once you get it all sorted.
As for your earlier comment about spring length and suspension travel, I'd think it would have to do with how many coils and a few other factors (if one spring type uses more coils, it would probably reduce the overall suspension travel).

[Mr_Peach]

cross posting for posterity:

OEM RSB FTMFW!

OK, got carried away with the acro-speak.

Pulled my Neuspeed Rear Sway Bar off and put the OEM one back on. Left the Neuspeed billet end links on... they look cool, they still work for taking the slop out of the bar, and besides, *ahem*, one of the cone washers was sort of frozen in place on the mounting bolt. I have replaced that bolt once after the 2009 Fastivus when I discovered it had fallen off. I have a vague recollection that the bolt I used was more of an interference fit with the cone washer than the stock one.

I am listening to those with more experience than I (you know who you are) who have pointed out to me that 'lifting the rear inside wheel' is not really the same thing as 'great handling'. I'm going to try the OEM RSB at a track day next weekend. If I like it, I'll probably dump the Neuspeed.

Did my usual 'test cloverleaf' after the install. I wouldn't say the OEM RSB is 'clearly superior', but it's also not 'clearly inferior'. There's a little more body lean, particularly in response to a 'panic lane change' input. It was rainy out, so it was difficult to really pull max G's. Still, I got it loose a bunch of times, and it still seems to be retaining the 'scary neutral' characteristics. I am running the upgraded Haldex with switch set on 'race' full time.

I'm pretty sure I substantially tamed the trailing throttle oversteer / lift throttle oversteer I've had for a couple years (ever since I added the race haldex to the RSB). I actually set out to initiate trailing throttle oversteer on a few passes, and I couldn't get it to break away. I could feel the chassis unsettle and lean, but it wouldn't break the tail loose. I could 'set' the tail out a bit under hard throttle, but not on the lift.

So for the moment, I am back to 'box stock' suspension, except for the end links and lighter wheels. About 82,600 on the clock.

[ryeboy]

cross posting for posterity:

Peach, an interesting experiment. Please update after you've had some track time on the OEM RSB. Are you going to be able to compare lap times from before (neuspeed) and after (OEM)? Or are there too many other variables in play?

[Mr_Peach]

Too many variables, I'm afraid

1. I'm not that consistent, my lap times with transponders are all over the place
2. My regional Audi club doesn't like timing, it goes against their charter
3. I've not been to Oregon Raceway Park before. Should be fun!

[ryeboy]

Too many variables, I'm afraid

1. I'm not that consistent, my lap times with transponders are all over the place
2. My regional Audi club doesn't like timing, it goes against their charter
3. I've not been to Oregon Raceway Park before. Should be fun!

Alas, we'll have to depend on the well-seasoned Peach butt dyno for an answer

[motrrrpsycho]

Hey all, I'm thinking of doing the same GC kit as Ryeboy (only with Koni FSD shocks) though I'm not completely sure that I want strait rate springs. I'm odd in that I am focusing more on a bumpy backroad thashing set up then a smooth track set up, so I want to go stiffer than stock, stay stock ride height so as not to loose any travel, and still have some initial give in the compression to take the edge off sharp bumps. Bump compliance is not a concern to me in terms of comfort, but more in terms of keeping the chasis stable and planted, and also not setting up so stiff that the car is beating itself up and developing all kinds of rattles and such. I am wondering if I could do something such as a Passat H&R sport spring kit, idea being stiffer but still progressive springs but not lowering as the R32 spec H&Rs would. Thoughts on that or other ideas? Thanks!

[abeR]

I wish I could remember his Vortex ID on here. I think his name was Mark? He owns and races (or used to race, been a few years) a super tricked out MKIV R32, and lived in Louisiana somewhere. He at one time, had been the fastest (SCCA) R32 in the country, and came close to doing great at the Solo II Nationals and Pro Solo. He might have some good insight on the specs we need.

Another person would be Don Ishtook. He owns a shop here in Texas, and has been racing Audi, Porsche, and VW's for many years. He is the one who got SCCA to finally allow DSG in pro racing. It had been considered as an automatic trans, which is not allowed.



http://www.istooks.com/

hey harry

that was mark smith

more info here

http://www.3zero3motorsports.com/blo...ew-mark-smith/

[Slave IV]

Hey all, I'm thinking of doing the same GC kit as Ryeboy (only with Koni FSD shocks) though I'm not completely sure that I want strait rate springs. I'm odd in that I am focusing more on a bumpy backroad thashing set up then a smooth track set up, so I want to go stiffer than stock, stay stock ride height so as not to loose any travel, and still have some initial give in the compression to take the edge off sharp bumps. Bump compliance is not a concern to me in terms of comfort, but more in terms of keeping the chasis stable and planted, and also not setting up so stiff that the car is beating itself up and developing all kinds of rattles and such. I am wondering if I could do something such as a Passat H&R sport spring kit, idea being stiffer but still progressive springs but not lowering as the R32 spec H&Rs would. Thoughts on that or other ideas? Thanks!

It sounds like progressive springs may be a good idea or getting helper springs like you see on the KW kits. You might want to try a car with Ohlins and I think anyone serious about suspension owes it to themselves to try before buying anything because you really will be amazed at how comfortable they are on top of the performance they give. I haven't tried out too many suspensions for the MkV platform but I've tried all kinds on different cars and I really have never felt anything that was comparable to Ohlins...Just have a complete comfort and confidence inspiring feel and I think it's mostly due to the dampers ability to react much faster than most competitors.


Oh, thanks for the link abe!

[-VDubSack-]

Great thread! How did I not find this earlier??? Definitely amazed at the lack of info out there as I'm starting my search for a new suspension AST's seem to be the leading candidate at the moment but I've got some time since I won't be back on track with the R until November.

Subscribed

[Slave IV]

Great thread! How did I not find this earlier??? Definitely amazed at the lack of info out there as I'm starting my search for a new suspension AST's seem to be the leading candidate at the moment but I've got some time since I won't be back on track with the R until November.

Subscribed

Thanks! I just updated the OP with info on Camber Plates since that has been a hot topic (I only know of the GC option and forgot the other one..if anyone remembers, please post), VW Racing options and some more info on the Ohlins based on discussion in this thread.

Keep the info coming guys...an informed consumer helps reduce un-needed products and makes room for more better products in the world!

[ryeboy]

Thanks! I just updated the OP with info on Camber Plates since that has been a hot topic (I only know of the GC option and forgot the other one..if anyone remembers, please post), VW Racing options and some more info on the Ohlins based on discussion in this thread.

Keep the info coming guys...an informed consumer helps reduce un-needed products and makes room for more better products in the world!

FWIW, Dick Shine snickered about the "dainty" GC camber plate and its tendency to destruct on the track. Of course, he may be developing his own, so take it for what it's worth. Nonetheless, he did have good things to say about Vorshlag's plate, but I don't think they make a mkV kit.

[Slave IV]

FWIW, Dick Shine snickered about the "dainty" GC camber plate and its tendency to destruct on the track. Of course, he may be developing his own, so take it for what it's worth. Nonetheless, he did have good things to say about Vorshlag's plate, but I don't think they make a mkV kit.

Noted...I searched myself and it seems like the only other option besides coilovers with built in plates and the VWR specific plates is from H2Sport but there is is very little info about them including where to purchase so I'm leaving them off the OP for now.

[Aviator.]

smaller tires, camber, more low

[Slave IV]

smaller tires, camber, more low

Mods (if there are any, lol), please delete the last post by Aviator j/k

[motrrrpsycho]

I did some calling around today, talked to someone at Swift Springs, someone at Vorshlag, and someone at Performance Shock. They all seemed to agree that if I wanted to stay stock ride height, a kit like what Ryboy is doing is the way to go as everything else is designed to lower, and they all basically said that it might be possible to find just springs that would work, but could potentially be very difficult to find just the right combination of length and weight, so might take some trial and error.

I'm glad helper springs were mentioned, I didn't know what those were before - seems like they might help achieve what I'm after. The above guys I talked to seemed to think they might be worth trying with a GC kit as well. Ryeboy - just curious - had you considered helper springs at all? I have not asked GC about them yet, but will next time I call them.

FYI to anyone looking at the AST kit from Vorshlag - the guy mentioned to me that they do not normally stock that kit and would be about a 6 week lead time to order it.

[Aviator.]

Mods (if there are any, lol), please delete the last post by Aviator j/k

[Slave IV]

I did some calling around today, talked to someone at Swift Springs, someone at Vorshlag, and someone at Performance Shock. They all seemed to agree that if I wanted to stay stock ride height, a kit like what Ryboy is doing is the way to go as everything else is designed to lower, and they all basically said that it might be possible to find just springs that would work, but could potentially be very difficult to find just the right combination of length and weight, so might take some trial and error.

I'm glad helper springs were mentioned, I didn't know what those were before - seems like they might help achieve what I'm after. The above guys I talked to seemed to think they might be worth trying with a GC kit as well. Ryeboy - just curious - had you considered helper springs at all? I have not asked GC about them yet, but will next time I call them.

FYI to anyone looking at the AST kit from Vorshlag - the guy mentioned to me that they do not normally stock that kit and would be about a 6 week lead time to order it.

Good to know! I think most of them agree that you could use slightly lower springs with the Ohlins if you did want to lower a bit too. That still seems like the best option to me no matter what your goal is (unless it is just to get as low as possible with no care for ride quality or handling). You may be thinking about it a bit too much at this point and if possible, just try the Ohlins with stock springs or something close and I'm willing to bet they will give you everything you are asking for. Their ability to handle bumps is amazing compared to anything else I've experienced.

[motrrrpsycho]

Good to know! I think most of them agree that you could use slightly lower springs with the Ohlins if you did want to lower a bit too. That still seems like the best option to me no matter what your goal is (unless it is just to get as low as possible with no care for ride quality or handling). You may be thinking about it a bit too much at this point and if possible, just try the Ohlins with stock springs or something close and I'm willing to bet they will give you everything you are asking for. Their ability to handle bumps is amazing compared to anything else I've experienced.

I know Ohlins makes top shelf stuff, but also $$$ right? I'll have to see how much they cost - now I'm curiuos. You may be right that Ohlins shocks with the right valving would do the trick for me - sounds worth looking at. I just put Koni FSD shocks on last summer though and I feel they have taken me a noticeable step in the direction I want to go. I feel that I just need a bit more compression dampening now, particularly in the front. I wish I could just find springs that would put me at stock ride height (or at least less than 1" lower) while being stiff enough for me to keep the nose of my car from diving so hard when I hit mid corner bumps - my front air dam is ground down to maybe half what it was now. Seems like it should not be that complicated or expensive of a problem to solve, IDK... If Ryeboy's kit works out I'll probably just go that route.