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    Thread: Did Hyundai lie again?

    1. Member bhtooefr's Avatar
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      12-04-2011 07:32 AM #101
      Here's the test schedules that the 2007 EPA test includes:

      http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

      I do think there are some issues with the EPA's methodology - due to CAFE requirements, the old 1975 test cycles - designed when there was less traffic, and under the 55 mph national speed limit - are still there. Also, stop-start isn't used, meaning some automakers don't want to bring stop-start technology (they fear that Americans aren't ready for stop-start's NVH additions, especially with no gain in EPA ratings.)

      I think it'd be best for the EPA to use three sets of test, all the same cycles:

      A heavy traffic city surface street test (think NYC)
      A moderate traffic city surface street test (able to reach 35 mph consistently, hitting lights about half the time)
      A light traffic city surface street test (able to reach 35 mph and stay there)
      A 55 mph 2-lane highway cycle
      A 75 or 80 mph divided highway cycle

      These cycles would be run three times. All three sets would be run at a certain target cabin temperature, with the testing facility refrigerated or heated as required - if it's too hot in the cabin, additional ventilation and/or AC are used. If it's too cold, heat is used. The three sets would be: Average US winter temperature, average US spring and fall temperature, average US summer temperature.

      The heavy/moderate/light is necessary, due to multiple definitions of city. For instance, where I live, I have light to moderate city traffic (although I short-trip, killing my fuel economy). But, my results are completely useless to someone living in NYC.

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      12-04-2011 09:41 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by zhenya00 View Post
      Dude, you are NOT your car.

      Get a grip. You look ridiculous.

      hyundai gets wrongfully accused of 'LYING' and you want me to sit here and listen? me? Bones Jones? no way!!

      and did you add anything to this discussion? if not then GT$@#$@O.

    3. Member zhenya00's Avatar
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      12-04-2011 12:49 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Bones_Jones View Post
      hyundai gets wrongfully accused of 'LYING' and you want me to sit here and listen? me? Bones Jones? no way!!

      and did you add anything to this discussion? if not then GT$@#$@O.
      Being part of the discussion is one thing. Treating a corporate entity as if it is your first-born is quite another. You've clearly developed some irrational emotional attachment to Hyundai, which makes your own contribution to the discussion of little value because nobody can be critical of them without your knee-jerk reactions. There is a reasoned, logical discussion going on in this thread about whether Hyundai is gaming the EPA system. You're just not part of it because of those rose-colored glasses..
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      12-04-2011 01:07 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by zhenya00 View Post
      Being part of the discussion is one thing. Treating a corporate entity as if it is your first-born is quite another. You've clearly developed some irrational emotional attachment to Hyundai, which makes your own contribution to the discussion of little value because nobody can be critical of them without your knee-jerk reactions. There is a reasoned, logical discussion going on in this thread about whether Hyundai is gaming the EPA system. You're just not part of it because of those rose-colored glasses..
      my rose-colored glasses says this is just another hyundai attack thread simply because hyundai has been rising too fast. I believe my buddies words and my own cars over things i read in internet. like CP1 said, Nissan has Juke, even civic hybrid had some issues, and i'm sure many other models had its issues. i've owned 12 cars in last 15 years(only 3 were hyundais) and most of my cars never reached its EPA numbers.

      singling out hyundai just because those unreliable sourses makes me laugh. and i provided some facts that those websites are fluke.

      and again this is hyundai's reply


      Update: Hyundai has responded to the Consumer Watchdog’s allegations, pointing out that more often than not real-world fuel economy differs from EPA ratings due to things like driving conditions, traffic, driver habit, and weather.
      For its part, Hyundai made note that an Elantra tested by Consumer Reports achieved 39 mpg highway (1 mpg shy of its 40 mpg highway rating). Hyundai also said that, “Consumer Reports’ city rating, which is a much more severe driving cycle than the EPA city cycle, shows the Elantra at 20 mpg.” Hyundai continued, “That’s better than Honda Civic at 19 mpg, Focus at 18 mpg, and Cruze at 17 mpg.”
      Hyundai was quick to point out that real-world owner data posted on the EPA’s website showed the 2011 Elantra achieving an average of 30.7 mpg, which is reasonably close to the Elantra’s EPA combined rating of 33 mpg.
      Hyundai also added that it understands its customer’s sensitivity to not achieving the EPA ratings, and that its important for it and other automakers to make it clear to buyers that EPA ratings are essentially best-case scenario estimations, “For example, a 20 MPG car that falls short of its fuel economy rating by 10 percent is off by only 2 MPG,” it said. “But a 40 MPG car driven in real-world conditions that drive a 10 percent reduction is off by a much more noticeable 4 MPG.”
      “It’s important for manufacturers to explain these points to owners,” said Hyundai, “We’re working hard at that at Hyundai, including the application of technologies like ActiveEco calibrations designed specifically to improve real-world fuel economy results.”


      Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/hyundai-re...#ixzz1faerACxx
      and stop talking about me. talk about if hyundai is lying or not. IMO, hyundai has done nothing wrong here.

      and if you are not going to add anything to this thread, just GT!@#$!@$O.

    5. Member zhenya00's Avatar
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      12-04-2011 01:18 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Bones_Jones View Post
      my rose-colored glasses says this is just another hyundai attack thread simply because hyundai has been rising too fast. I believe my buddies words and my own cars over things i read in internet. like CP1 said, Nissan has Juke, even civic hybrid had some issues, and i'm sure many other models had its issues. i've owned 12 cars in last 15 years(only 3 were hyundais) and most of my cars never reached its EPA numbers.

      singling out hyundai just because those unreliable sourses makes me laugh. and i provided some facts that those websites are fluke.

      and again this is hyundai's reply




      and stop talking about me. talk about if hyundai is lying or not. IMO, hyundai has done nothing wrong here.

      and if you are not going to add anything to this thread, just GT!@#$!@$O.
      So you trust the sample size of yourself and a few friends, who probably all live and drive in a similar area more than your trust a random sample size of dozens or hundreds of users voluntarily reporting? LOL.

      That press release from Hyundai is just fluff. Of course real world numbers are different. The question is WHY Hyundai's real world numbers tend to be lower than EPA estimates when most other manufacturer's tend to see higher reported numbers. That's a fair question, and nobody is 'singling out Hyundai' because 'they have been rising too fast.'
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    6. 12-04-2011 11:55 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by GTRaavv View Post
      It is hilarious that you try and counter those who are trying to keep yall from weasling out of a valid criticism - which numerous other Hyundai supporters agree with mind you - by responding with BMW, Honda, and Nissan retorts as if that is really going to upset us. So juvenille - might as well cap it off with a "na na na na nah."
      When did I stated this was not an issue?

      I merely stated that it was an "issue", but nothing like "Did Hyundai Lie Again" since many Elantra owners ARE getting the combined EPA mileage or better.

      Also, I don't see you coming up w/ proof that this has been a constant for Hyundai.

      Not only have you "weaseled" out of that one, you also tried to weasel out of Juke getting numerous complaints about its fuel economy by blaming it on the gas tank. lol

      According to Fuelly...

      16 Juke owners get the 27 combined or better.

      29 get below the EPA rating (that's 65%)


      Quote Originally Posted by GTRaavv View Post
      And as far as the consistent definition, I mean people complaining about this issue happening in several models and numerous magazines getting well-below the EPA claims for numerous models. This isn't a one model issue like the Juke (which could in part have been caused by a smaller gas tank which Nissan rectified by sending out gift cards). This has happened with the Elantra, the regular Sonata, and the Sonata hybrid - which has been a huge issue.
      Again, NAME the several other Hyundai models. (you keep repeating "several" over and over again, and yet you never come up w/ the actual models).

      And gee, you really think that Juke owners complaining about miles per gallon are complaining about the size of the gas tank (that would be owners complaining about the range on a full tank)?

      Nice try.


      Quote Originally Posted by gonzo08452 View Post
      I thought this thread is about Hyudai? Yet, I keep seeing posts about how bad BMW, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM mpgs are
      That's b/c posting about something where some owners/drivers attain something and other don't is pretty silly.


      [quote]The Toyota Corolla is about as far removed from driving excitement as Nicole “Snooki” Polizzi is from Harvard Medical School. This is a car best purchased by people who simply want to get from one place to another at a sedate speed while enjoying a soft ride, who place a great deal of trust in the Toyota brand, and who cannot imagine buying anything else in the compact car class.

      Clearly, that’s not where we stand. We tested a 2011 Corolla S, which looked sporty but was not. Indifferent interior assembly quality, downmarket interior materials, an uncomfortable driver’s seat and position, and driving dynamics in need of a defibrillator machine were our chief complaints about the car. It didn’t help that we only got 28.6 mpg with the five-speed manual transmission, short of the EPA’s combined 31-mpg rating.

      http://www.vehix.com/car-reviews/2011/toyota/corolla

      Otherwise, we'd be seeing threads like this...

      Oh noes, Vehix didn't get the EPA rating for the Corolla...
      Last edited by CP1; 12-05-2011 at 12:13 AM.
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      12-05-2011 12:09 AM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by zhenya00 View Post
      So you trust the sample size of yourself and a few friends, who probably all live and drive in a similar area more than your trust a random sample size of dozens or hundreds of users voluntarily reporting? LOL.

      That press release from Hyundai is just fluff. Of course real world numbers are different. The question is WHY Hyundai's real world numbers tend to be lower than EPA estimates when most other manufacturer's tend to see higher reported numbers. That's a fair question, and nobody is 'singling out Hyundai' because 'they have been rising too fast.'

      why would i not believe my own sister, and my buddies? and why would i not believe mid 40's church going folks? and why should i believe anything from fuelly.com or internet hearsay? i proved with links that fuelly can't be trusted because apparently there are trolls out there who types in ridiculous mpg numbers. all i know is there is at least few people in this board, and people around me get advertised mpg. and i own 2 hyundais currently. i also owned 08 elantra as well. I came from 6 Hondas. i get advertised mpg. sometimes worse, sometimes better.

      and last time i checked there wasn't a thread about 'nissan lying again' 'honda lying again' and etc. you gotta admit hyundai gets attacked alot lately. and i maybe a homer, but i don't just praise hyundai. i attacked sonata hybrid which i consider a major flop even though it is selling very well. i also think Veloster is somewhat boring to drive. i've never been a fan of Tucson. i also think Hyundai's latest design don't age well. but one thing i do know is that hyundai is reading all the criticism and try to get better. that's why i love about this brand. they always try to get better. they are my kinda brand.

    8. Banned Chris Stack's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 12:16 AM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by Bones_Jones View Post
      i maybe a homer
      Correct, except for the "maybe."

    9. 12-05-2011 12:20 AM #109
      ^^ I seem to recall, while defending Hyundai against unfair attacks, that, at the same time, those of us haven't been w/o our fair share of criticism (if not more).

      Heck, I got attacked for having the gall to criticize the silver painted plastic on the dash of the Veloster which I simply detest.

      Also, unlike others who have tried to pawn off the Camry SE as a "choice" for posters looking for a sporty sedan (you all know who did that), I've actually tried to dissuade a couple of posters from keeping the Sonata SE Turbo on their list.

      Same for the thread of the poster who was trying to decide btwn the Odyssey and Sedona (all of us picked the Honda).
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      12-05-2011 12:39 AM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by CP1 View Post
      while defending Hyundai against unfair attacks
      I'm glad you're out here defending them. What are they, your sister?

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      12-05-2011 01:35 AM #111
      Fuelly has too many trolls

      1 guy signed up for 2012 azera. 12.3mpg? suspicious
      http://www.fuelly.com/driver/jaimep/azera

      veloster - rest gets 31-37mpg, but 1 car with only 22.7mpg doing 40/60? lol. must be a lemon
      http://www.fuelly.com/car/hyundai/veloster/2012

      11 accord coupe 4 banger only getting 12.3mpg? lol srly?
      http://www.fuelly.com/driver/pugmobile/accord

      and i'm supposed to believe what people say on internet? hell naw!

      fuelly or wherever people are complaining about fuel economy = too small of a sample size & too many trolls

      case closed.

    12. 12-05-2011 02:21 AM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      I'm glad you're out here defending them. What are they, your sister?
      What is Honda to you, your mother? (Hypocrite much?)

      And why are you having such a conniption if I or others defend Hyundai from unfair attacks?
      Why you wouldn’t (buy an Optima SX):

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      12-05-2011 02:29 AM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by CP1 View Post
      What is Honda to you, your mother? (Hypocrite much?)

      And why are you having such a conniption if I or others defend Hyundai from unfair attacks?
      Yeah dude, I'm a total Honda defender. Look at me shouting down people in the Honda CEO say Civic sucks thread


      I don't have a conniption, it just seems odd that someone should have to go out and defined a multi billion company against "unfair attacks" on the Internet. Really?

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      12-05-2011 02:43 AM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      Yeah dude, I'm a total Honda defender. Look at me shouting down people in the Honda CEO say Civic sucks thread


      I don't have a conniption, it just seems odd that someone should have to go out and defined a multi billion company against "unfair attacks" on the Internet. Really?
      It seems to be the worst with Hyundai these days. Mention anything negative about Hyundai and the shills/fanboys will gather like vultures. Their marketing/PR is very sophisticated it seems.

    15. 12-05-2011 03:11 AM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Snrub View Post
      It seems to be the worst with Hyundai these days. Mention anything negative about Hyundai and the shills/fanboys will gather like vultures. Their marketing/PR is very sophisticated it seems.
      hi 1sick

    16. 12-05-2011 04:04 AM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      Yeah dude, I'm a total Honda defender. Look at me shouting down people in the Honda CEO say Civic sucks thread


      I don't have a conniption, it just seems odd that someone should have to go out and defined a multi billion company against "unfair attacks" on the Internet. Really?

      Well, it's hard to defend it when the CEO of Honda says "it sucks."

      And oh, please - you have defended Honda many a time.

      Just b/c you don't do it a few times or even criticize Honda yourself, that doesn't mean that you aren't a "Honda defender."

      My list of criticisms of Hyundai has been well-documented; but I somehow doubt that you wouldn't regard me as anything but a "Hyundai defender."

      And speaking of - it was I who criticized the design of the dashes in both the Genesis and Equus sedans while "person o bano mucha mucha" (see below) liked it (b/c he liked bland, boring designs fit for "old fogies").

      And unlike OP (and a no. of others), I save my criticism for Hyundai where it is warranted (such as its steering feel - which I probably have been most vocal about) and not relegated to some juvenile, tabloid hit-job.

      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      hi 1sick
      lol
      Last edited by CP1; 12-05-2011 at 04:11 AM.
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    17. 12-05-2011 10:11 AM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      I'm still searching for that elusive 33mpg highway on my Sonata 2.0t. After over a year and nearly 15,000 miles, the closest I've gotten is 30.65mpg.
      LOL my 2001 Passat with a 2.8l V6, fulltime AWD, at 70mph with no aircon on averaged 29.1 MPG, even though its rated at 24mpg hwy.

    18. Geriatric Member ByronLLN's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 10:23 AM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by Jettavr666 View Post
      LOL my 2001 Passat with a 2.8l V6, fulltime AWD, at 70mph with no aircon on averaged 29.1 MPG, even though its rated at 24mpg hwy.
      And under EPA highway conditions, it would probably get 24mpg.

      Just like the Jeep I drove a few weeks back, which would pull 25mpg in steady-state highway driving, but dipped down to its EPA rating (22mpg) over the course of a long highway drive involving traffic and congestion--what EPA is meant to replicate.

      Hyundai's numbers make no sense.
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      12-05-2011 10:35 AM #119
      Does Fuelly.com account for outliers? I checked the site and didn't see the methodology behind its calculations. If not, it really should eliminate the top and bottom 5% results from its calculated average.

    20. Member zhenya00's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 10:56 AM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by masa8888 View Post
      Does Fuelly.com account for outliers? I checked the site and didn't see the methodology behind its calculations. If not, it really should eliminate the top and bottom 5% results from its calculated average.
      I don't know, but it's easy enough yourself to look at the median rather than the average. For the 2011 Elantra, that's ~30mpg, which is close enough to the average of 30.8. In fact, for the half dozen or so models I quickly scanned, the median and their average were all within ~1mpg, so not bad.
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    21. Member zhenya00's Avatar
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      12-05-2011 11:05 AM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by Bones_Jones View Post
      why would i not believe my own sister, and my buddies? and why would i not believe mid 40's church going folks? and why should i believe anything from fuelly.com or internet hearsay? i proved with links that fuelly can't be trusted because apparently there are trolls out there who types in ridiculous mpg numbers. all i know is there is at least few people in this board, and people around me get advertised mpg. and i own 2 hyundais currently. i also owned 08 elantra as well. I came from 6 Hondas. i get advertised mpg. sometimes worse, sometimes better.
      Why? One, because people who give you their numbers in conversation tend to exaggerate (more so than people who meticulously log and report their actual mileage), two because it's an EXTREMELY small sample size of people who all live and drive in roughly the same area! You reject a sample size of dozens or hundreds of voluntary users from all over the place as 'too small' but then derive your own conclusions from your own sample size that is homogenous and orders of magnitude smaller!

      Try this exercise. Go to Fuelly and look at half a dozen 2010 or 2011 model year cars, and compare their reported average (or median) numbers to their EPA rated number. I did this, and every one was between 1 and 5 mpg higher than EPA average, EXCEPT for Hyundai where most models were reporting 1-3 mpg lower than EPA estimates. That's quite a spread.

      But you're right, I'm sure it's just a bunch of people trolling Hyundai because they can't stand to see them grow.

      Case closed.
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    22. 12-05-2011 11:59 AM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by PassSedanGLX View Post
      And under EPA highway conditions, it would probably get 24mpg.

      Just like the Jeep I drove a few weeks back, which would pull 25mpg in steady-state highway driving, but dipped down to its EPA rating (22mpg) over the course of a long highway drive involving traffic and congestion--what EPA is meant to replicate.

      Hyundai's numbers make no sense.
      thats probably correct.

      Its really a bit crazy with hyundai because my parents have a last gen elantra, that will easily average 35mpg under mostly highway, but a little mixed driving.

      It seems like hyundai tailored the new elantra just to the test, and not real world driving. Whats ironic is that Honda usually does exactly the opposite, and people generally get better mileage in the real world than their EPA ratings suggest.

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      12-05-2011 12:16 PM #123
      This thread reminds me of the time I got a $1.02 check from Hyundai as part of a class action suit for them overestimating the horsepower on my wifes '01 Elantra.
      I do not understand why some coupes make the grade and others do not. Everyone knows, for instance, that the Corrado was as tasty as an East End prize fighter with the looks of a Benetti super-yacht. The four-cylinder was good, but the VR6 was about as close as you could get to Ferraridom without buying a Ferrari. And what happened? You all went to the pub instead. -Jeremy Clarkson-

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      12-05-2011 12:43 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by Bones_Jones View Post
      Fuelly has too many trolls

      1 guy signed up for 2012 azera. 12.3mpg? suspicious
      http://www.fuelly.com/driver/jaimep/azera

      veloster - rest gets 31-37mpg, but 1 car with only 22.7mpg doing 40/60? lol. must be a lemon
      http://www.fuelly.com/car/hyundai/veloster/2012

      11 accord coupe 4 banger only getting 12.3mpg? lol srly?
      http://www.fuelly.com/driver/pugmobile/accord

      and i'm supposed to believe what people say on internet? hell naw!

      fuelly or wherever people are complaining about fuel economy = too small of a sample size & too many trolls

      case closed.
      Those cases don't sound unreasonable if the person spends on a good deal of time city driving the the highway driving is traffic. Keep in mind 60% freeway may be slogging traffic.
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      12-05-2011 01:16 PM #125
      I think its time to get in on this gang bang.

      Yet another thread ruined by the Hyundai PR team (CP1, BJ).

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