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    Thread: Phaeton ATF Concern (Please Help!)

    1. Member
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      12-08-2011 07:26 PM #1
      Hi Guys,

      I just took my Phaeton to a VW dealer to have the ATF changed a month ago, as my Phaeton has 169000 KMs on the clock and I believe the ATF is not a "life time" item. I have posted the pictures in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...)-(ATF-Coolant

      My car runs fine before the ATF change, I changed the ATF just as a precautionary measurement because I want to keep my Phaeton for a long time, after the ATF change, the car was fine when I drove 300 KMs back home, (that was back in October), but recently I have noticed something strange with my transmission, it doesn't do that all the time, just when the temp is below freezing point (especially below minus ten, but in Canada, we can get -20 or even -30 easily): the transmission seems jerks between 3 to 4 and 4 to 5, and sometime you can feel a moment of power loss when the gear shifts to 5th gear. and when the car goes down hill, the RPM jumps up and down when the gear is not actually shifting. the symptom seems getting better when the transmission completely warms up.

      At first I thought it is because the dealer didn't upgrade the TCM and ECM as I read post on the TOC, the transmission software will need to be upgraded when the fluid was changed, the ATF dealer put into my transmission is G060162A2, I have contacted several other VW dealers and ZF, confirmed that is the correct part number for my Phaeton, but got mixed results on the TCM upgrade, all the VW dealers I talked to said the TCM doesn't need to be upgraded in my case, and it is when you update the TCM, fluid needs to be changed and not the other way around, but the email I received from ZF said the TCM needs to be updated, otherwise the clutch could be burned after a longer time.

      I have been doing research online, and seems the jumping RPMs is related to the torque convertor, or the trans filter wasn't installed correctly. I talked to the service manager of the dealer which performed the work on my car, he said from his experience, sometimes a transmission with such high mileage, if you changed the ATF, it might have some problems, as the detergent in the new ATF will wash out the residue in the old transmission which the transmission already relies on to maintain proper seal, it might settle down after some time. I also performed a Vag-Com scan on my car, but shows no fault code found on transmission.

      I am getting mixed information and really frustrated right not, now I feel I should believe "if it is not broken, don't fix it", I want to take care of my transmission by changing the ATF, but now I end up start to have problems, what shall I do now? Is it just because the new ATF is very sensitive to low temperature? Or is there something wrong with my torque convertor or is it because the dealer didn't do the job right?

      Please help!

      Thanks

      Tomas

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      12-09-2011 07:31 AM #2
      Let's see...first off, the fluid change itself is not the problem. Changing your fluid will never, ever, ever, cause a problem. Now this is assuming the correct fluid is used, the right filter is installed and done correctly (not difficult, mind you), the fluid is at its proper level (this too is not ultra exact, they do have a upper and lower limit so don't believe it when you read "that the fluid needs to be at exactly 50C when you check it", they are not that picky), and no wiring damage was done during the filter swap. I have heard a million times from customers that they don't want to flush their transmission because they heard somewhere that it could ruin it. This is absurd. Change your fluid every week, month, year, whatever, it will not hurt your transmission. Next off, assuming you have the W12 engine, the unit is a ZF 5HP24A. This is very similar to the more common ZF 5HP19FLA in Audi Quattro cars. If you are having trouble with the 3-4 and 4-5 upshifts, than the torque converter is not likely the problem. The torque converter issue would be the clutch inside used for lock-up slipping causing a chatter/vibration upon application. I believe this unit engages TCC (torque converter clutch) in 2nd gear on up to 5th, depending on throttle position and fluid temperature. Also, another reason it is not likely the torque converter is because you claim to have issues only when the transmission is cold; the TCC will not apply when the fluid is cold. Fluid selection is also not really likely. Regardless of what ZF or VW tell you what you MUST use, this is untrue. They do not make lubricants and therefore other vendors, Esso, Shell, etc. will likely have a fluid that matches the requirements. For example, VW has a fluid for this car with a dealer number, which I believe you listed, however, Esso Type LT 71141, is what it really is. Also, there are companies such as International Lubricants Inc. makes a line called Lubegard which is an additive package which serves like a multivitamin for transmission fluid. You would use synthetic Dexron IV with the addition of Lubegard Platinum. This additive takes regular fluid and adds supplementary chemicals whether they be anti-oxidants, surfactants, and/or friction modifiers. So don't worry about them putting in the wrong fluid, especially at the dealer. In terms of ZF's recommendation of a TCM upgrade, this may or may not be necessary. I would rely more on VW's recommendation as it is their vehicle and your vehicle may not require it as I understand there are two different transmissions used in this car, a 5 speed and a 6-speed. The only reason that they would recommend a TCM flash with a fluid change is for two reasons; one, they have seen a significant number of failures/problems with the transmission and have attributed it to software or they have made a change in the fluid they recommend and with the new fluid (new meaning different type all together) they require a new shift program to compensate for the different fluid characteristics, most likely a change in friction modifier content. It is true that if the latter is the reason and you do not get the TCM upgrade, then you will glaze and burn the clutches. But if the dealer doesn't recommend it and you cannot find a specific TSB (technical service bulletin) addressing your car specifically, then I wouldn't focus on this too much. With that said, however, your concerns could be related to the software and/or fluid, so I would look into this further to verify that your car doesn't require the TCM update. Remember, ZF makes a lot of transmissions for a lot of machinery so they may be confused as to what unit your car has in it exactly. Lastly, the work you had done in the post you linked here did not require a dealer at any capacity, let alone a "specialist". The Phaeton isn't all that special; yes, it seems to have been imported for a limited time to the US (not sure about Canada), but the transmission and the engine are used in other cars made by Volkswagen Auto Group (VAG). However, to each his own. See what you find about the true recommendation on this transmission and if we need to diagnose this problem further, we can.

      Brad

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      12-09-2011 10:24 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      In terms of ZF's recommendation of a TCM upgrade, this may or may not be necessary. I would rely more on VW's recommendation as it is their vehicle and your vehicle may not require it as I understand there are two different transmissions used in this car, a 5 speed and a 6-speed. The only reason that they would recommend a TCM flash with a fluid change is for two reasons; one, they have seen a significant number of failures/problems with the transmission and have attributed it to software or they have made a change in the fluid they recommend and with the new fluid (new meaning different type all together) they require a new shift program to compensate for the different fluid characteristics, most likely a change in friction modifier content. It is true that if the latter is the reason and you do not get the TCM upgrade, then you will glaze and burn the clutches. But if the dealer doesn't recommend it and you cannot find a specific TSB (technical service bulletin) addressing your car specifically, then I wouldn't focus on this too much.
      Brad
      This is an Audi TSB that seems to apply, maybe there is an equivalent VW TSB. Seems the latter of your two reasons is correct.

      http://uberlame.com/a6_tsb/Transmiss...2037-06-13.pdf

      But that said, I can certainly see how the additive pack in new fluid would be much more active than the depleted pack in the old fluid. Not sure it would be active to the point of removing 'beneficial varnish' or creating debris particles to make the solenoids sticky though.

      PS - picture in the link from the OP show it's a ZF 6HP-19
      Last edited by Charlie_M; 12-09-2011 at 10:32 AM. Reason: add PS

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      12-09-2011 12:06 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_M View Post
      This is an Audi TSB that seems to apply, maybe there is an equivalent VW TSB. Seems the latter of your two reasons is correct.

      http://uberlame.com/a6_tsb/Transmiss...2037-06-13.pdf

      But that said, I can certainly see how the additive pack in new fluid would be much more active than the depleted pack in the old fluid. Not sure it would be active to the point of removing 'beneficial varnish' or creating debris particles to make the solenoids sticky though.

      PS - picture in the link from the OP show it's a ZF 6HP-19
      Charlie_M is right, my Phaeton is not a W12, it is V8 with 6 speed ZF transmission, it is a 6HP-19. Tans code GUN. And thanks for the Audi TB PDF, it provided me the most information I can find so far.

      Tomas

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      12-09-2011 12:33 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Let's see...first off, the fluid change itself is not the problem. Changing your fluid will never, ever, ever, cause a problem. Now this is assuming the correct fluid is used, the right filter is installed and done correctly (not difficult, mind you), the fluid is at its proper level (this too is not ultra exact, they do have a upper and lower limit so don't believe it when you read "that the fluid needs to be at exactly 50C when you check it", they are not that picky), and no wiring damage was done during the filter swap. I have heard a million times from customers that they don't want to flush their transmission because they heard somewhere that it could ruin it. This is absurd. Change your fluid every week, month, year, whatever, it will not hurt your transmission. Next off, assuming you have the W12 engine, the unit is a ZF 5HP24A. This is very similar to the more common ZF 5HP19FLA in Audi Quattro cars. If you are having trouble with the 3-4 and 4-5 upshifts, than the torque converter is not likely the problem. The torque converter issue would be the clutch inside used for lock-up slipping causing a chatter/vibration upon application. I believe this unit engages TCC (torque converter clutch) in 2nd gear on up to 5th, depending on throttle position and fluid temperature. Also, another reason it is not likely the torque converter is because you claim to have issues only when the transmission is cold; the TCC will not apply when the fluid is cold. Fluid selection is also not really likely. Regardless of what ZF or VW tell you what you MUST use, this is untrue. They do not make lubricants and therefore other vendors, Esso, Shell, etc. will likely have a fluid that matches the requirements. For example, VW has a fluid for this car with a dealer number, which I believe you listed, however, Esso Type LT 71141, is what it really is. Also, there are companies such as International Lubricants Inc. makes a line called Lubegard which is an additive package which serves like a multivitamin for transmission fluid. You would use synthetic Dexron IV with the addition of Lubegard Platinum. This additive takes regular fluid and adds supplementary chemicals whether they be anti-oxidants, surfactants, and/or friction modifiers. So don't worry about them putting in the wrong fluid, especially at the dealer. In terms of ZF's recommendation of a TCM upgrade, this may or may not be necessary. I would rely more on VW's recommendation as it is their vehicle and your vehicle may not require it as I understand there are two different transmissions used in this car, a 5 speed and a 6-speed. The only reason that they would recommend a TCM flash with a fluid change is for two reasons; one, they have seen a significant number of failures/problems with the transmission and have attributed it to software or they have made a change in the fluid they recommend and with the new fluid (new meaning different type all together) they require a new shift program to compensate for the different fluid characteristics, most likely a change in friction modifier content. It is true that if the latter is the reason and you do not get the TCM upgrade, then you will glaze and burn the clutches. But if the dealer doesn't recommend it and you cannot find a specific TSB (technical service bulletin) addressing your car specifically, then I wouldn't focus on this too much. With that said, however, your concerns could be related to the software and/or fluid, so I would look into this further to verify that your car doesn't require the TCM update. Remember, ZF makes a lot of transmissions for a lot of machinery so they may be confused as to what unit your car has in it exactly. Lastly, the work you had done in the post you linked here did not require a dealer at any capacity, let alone a "specialist". The Phaeton isn't all that special; yes, it seems to have been imported for a limited time to the US (not sure about Canada), but the transmission and the engine are used in other cars made by Volkswagen Auto Group (VAG). However, to each his own. See what you find about the true recommendation on this transmission and if we need to diagnose this problem further, we can.

      Brad
      Hi Brad,

      Thanks for the reply! Your reply is by far the most professional and knowledgeable reply I got(I have contacted several VW dealers, Audi dealers and ZF, none of them provided such informative reply), you must be a service manager or something, am I right?

      My car is a V8 Phaeton, using ZF 6HP-19, trans code GUN (this is from the tran's plate picture I took) according to ZF's document:http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf the ATF should be G055005A2, but the reply I got from ZF and VW dealers saying it is a 6HP-19A and the ATF is G060162A2, that is why I am confused and thought the wrong type of fluid was used.

      The service manager of the dealer that performed the work on my car also told me the TCM upgrade may not apply in my situation. He asked me to do a GFF at my local VW dealer as he need the software version, so I scanned my car with Vag-Com and sent him the follow, but haven't heard back from him:

      Address 01: Engine Tag: ZHS\4D0-907-560-BGH.clb
      Controller: 4D0 907 560 CS Hardware:
      Component: 4.2L V8/5V G 0040
      Coding: 0007873
      VCID: 79F2F160495F
      No Fault Codes found.
      Readiness: 0010 1101
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 02: Auto Trans Tag: ZHS\09L-927-760.clb
      Controller: 09L 927 760 C Hardware: GS1 9.0 4.1 *
      Component: AG6 09L 4,2L V8 1003
      Coding: 0001102
      VCID: 377637583FCB
      No Fault Codes found.

      The bolted letter is my ECM and TCM software version

      So if I don't need to worry about the ATF and software upgrade, what else could be the issue? Maybe it is just because of the cold temp and combination of the new fliud detergent? the reason I say that is because normally when I drive to work in the morning, the problem is most noticable, and when I drive the car at lunch time or going back home after work, it is alomost fine (I have underground heated parking at work), seems only temp related.

      Thanks!

      Tomas

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      12-09-2011 01:17 PM #6
      First off, I am not a service manager...that is almost offensive! Just kidding, I am not real fond of dealers for various reasons, especially when it comes to transmissions. I am actually a transmission rebuilder, more domestic than import, as well as an organic chemist. The latter is my main employment and the former is now just supplemental income. I have been rebuilding since 98', so a few years, but I am always learning! Anyway, the ZF 6HP16 is basically a six-speed Quattro. I am not sure whether there is really any internal difference, I think the 6th gear is just another combination of clutches being applied. Either way, I am very skeptical that the new fluid is the culprit. This "beneficial varnish" some speak of really doesn't exist. This fluid does not parts, instead, the coating that people always observe is very fine particles of clutch material, which is very normal. With the mileage your car has on it you would have observed this in addition to an intimidating amount of build up on the pan magnet. As long as it is gray/black and not silvery or brass colored, all is normal. This is normal wear and tear; nothing to be concerned about. What may be an issue is if a different fluid was added from what was in it prior (meaning different type not new versus old as in age). As mentioned prior, the main difference between fluids from say an Audi/VW to a Ford to a Chrysler is more often than not, a difference in friction modifier content. This is most often determined by the make up of the clutches as some excel as accepting slip and others not so much. This, among other factors, determine fluid requirements. Getting back to your point, I would verify that the fluid installed was the same as prior and if it is not, then check to see if a software update is required. If this comes out to be okay, than we may have to look into which components could cause these complaints. When you took it in, did anyone reset the transmission adaptive shift when they scanned it, if they scanned it. Was the battery unhooked for a long period of time or any fuses removed and replaced? See what you find here and I will address further once I hear back. Also, if you are comfortable with it, could you post your VIN and I will look into the issue as well. Good Luck!

      Brad

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      12-09-2011 01:37 PM #7
      Hi Brad,

      Good to know a little bit of your back ground, what a skillful man!

      Here is my car's VIN number: WVWAF63D048011799 I hope that helps.

      I was there watching them chaging the ATF, they didn't use a VAS 505x to scan the car or monitor the temp or unhook the battery, I don't know if they reset the adaptive control, I think they may not. Can I do that myself with Vag-Com?

      According to the service manager, he said they put in the same honey color ATF as the old one in the reansmission, but I have no way of verifying what they said. And I am not sure the original ATF part number in the transmission. I am confused with all these ATF part number already, but just by the look of it, I would say G060162A2 is a latest part number, than G055005A2 and G055162A2.

      Tomas

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      12-12-2011 07:26 AM #8
      Tomas,

      I looked up your VIN and found nothing relevant to this issue, in terms of TSB's, from 4/25/2011 on back. Since then I found no TSB's, so my resource may be out of date or there really haven't been any TSB's issued at all since this time. The last TSB relevant to the vehicle's transmission specifically was issued on 1/16/2007 regarding the torque converter leaking due a bearing/bushing problem, which I believe is only an issue during a replacement. The oil recommended by this resource was VW G 052 162A2, so I am unsure where all of the numbers are coming from or how they differ in terms of composition. I will continue looking today and then we will address the components that can cause this issue, however, the fact that is started after work done on the car is interesting, though may be a coincidence.

      Brad

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      12-12-2011 11:19 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Tomas,

      I looked up your VIN and found nothing relevant to this issue, in terms of TSB's, from 4/25/2011 on back. Since then I found no TSB's, so my resource may be out of date or there really haven't been any TSB's issued at all since this time. The last TSB relevant to the vehicle's transmission specifically was issued on 1/16/2007 regarding the torque converter leaking due a bearing/bushing problem, which I believe is only an issue during a replacement. The oil recommended by this resource was VW G 052 162A2, so I am unsure where all of the numbers are coming from or how they differ in terms of composition. I will continue looking today and then we will address the components that can cause this issue, however, the fact that is started after work done on the car is interesting, though may be a coincidence.

      Brad
      Hi Brad, thanks for your constant help on this. From the research I have been doing, I also believe G052162A2 was the original factory filled ATF on this ZF 6HP-19 transmission, however, every VW dealers I asked, they said G060162A2 is the ATF for this transmission right now, since the service i had was an ATF and filter change, not a flush, so there must be some of the old fluid still left in there, could it be a result of mixing different types of fluids?

      Now I am more certain the problem is temprature related, it shifts wierd in the morning, but after 4 to 5 KMs of drving, it is getting better, and then fine for the rest of the day. So I guess we need to focus on temprature sensitive components in the transmisson?

      Thanks!

      Tomas

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      12-12-2011 12:47 PM #10
      Your fluid idea is good, though it would help if we knew what the difference between them is. Was is manufacturer or ingredients? Also, I called my local VW dealer and they said that there is no such TSB for your vehicle that deals with the transmission. Unless you have found one, I would say the TSB regarding reprogramming of the trans after a fluid change does not exist for this car. Other companies use different fluids for this unit. If I remember correctly, the Audi I worked on had a dark blue fluid not the honey colored you speak of. If you have time, try and see if you can find out whhy they changed fluid recommendations and what the difference between the number I gave you and the number you said they added. I will get back to you on the VB later this afternoon/evening.

      Brad

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      12-12-2011 01:12 PM #11
      Thanks Brad,

      I have sent another email to ZF inquiring about the ATF difference, hopfully they can provide me some useful information.

      Looking forward to hear back from you regarding the VB.

      Tomas

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      12-12-2011 08:30 PM #12
      Tomas,

      I am going to be looking into this VB but I may not be able to respond in depth for a day or two. I would see if you can look up how to reset your adaptive shift program. Some cars are simple and others not so. You could pull the fuses from the transmission computer for an hour or so and re-install them and then go and drive but I don't know if this will force a re-adapt. Look it up. Keep me updated on the fluid. I will be checking the forum but will have limited time to reply to posts and I need to look into your VB as I am more familiar with the 4HP19FLA, but even that has been some time ago.

      Brad

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      12-12-2011 11:13 PM #13
      That is fine Brad, I will see what I can find on the adaptive control reset and I will keep you posted on any info I heard from ZF.

      Thanks for your help!

      Tomas

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      12-13-2011 07:52 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Your fluid idea is good, though it would help if we knew what the difference between them is. Was is manufacturer or ingredients? Also, I called my local VW dealer and they said that there is no such TSB for your vehicle that deals with the transmission. Unless you have found one, I would say the TSB regarding reprogramming of the trans after a fluid change does not exist for this car. Other companies use different fluids for this unit. If I remember correctly, the Audi I worked on had a dark blue fluid not the honey colored you speak of. If you have time, try and see if you can find out whhy they changed fluid recommendations and what the difference between the number I gave you and the number you said they added. I will get back to you on the VB later this afternoon/evening.

      Brad
      I know the TSB I pointed to above is for Audi and not VW, but it's the same tranny, and we've seen before where VW issues a TSB for a part or issue and Audi does not, or vice-versa. The new fluid (blue G055162A2) in that TSB referred to the new fluid as 'optimized', and was changed over on the production line too so the 'chirping' noise issue could be fixed.

      Regarding the fluid mixing, it does seem that could be a concern when switching to the new blue from the old honey fluid. The TSB procedure indicates a drain, fill, flush (run through the gears 5-6 times on the lift), drain, and final fill cycle. So not 100% fluid change, but closer than just a drain and refill.

      Again, it may not apply, but the adaptation procedure from that TSB:

      1.Drive vehicle with low engine performance until the ATF temperature reaches 60° C, ( ATF temperature must not exceed 100° C)
      2.With brake pedal depressed, vehicle completely stopped and engine at idle, switch gear selector from "N" to "D" for 3 seconds repeat 5 times. Perform the same procedure from "N" to "R".
      3.Shift from 1st to 2nd while driving at low load and shift down from 2nd to 1st, repeat 5 times.
      4.Drive at low engine load (engine torque between 80 Nm and 100 Nm refer to 02 automatic gearbox, MVB 09, 1st display value) till the transmission has shifted in to 6th gear (vehicle speed between 50 and 60 mph). Stay in this 6th gear for 60 seconds. let the vehicle roll to a standstill (with gentle brake application at the end). Repeat four times. The aim is to shift up and down under a very light engine load.

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      12-13-2011 08:42 AM #15
      I agree with Charlie_M on the TSB issuance between Audi and VW and it is true that the Phaeton uses the same transmission as the A8 4.2 L. One concern with this TSB is the blue fluid. It was noted by Tomas that they added a honey colored fluid so this would not be the "optimized" fluid mentioned in the TSB, therefore this would not be applicable here. Also of note is the TSB's subject; it is related to the TCC which is not applied when the transmission is cold, which is when Tomas is having issues. I wonder if any difference or complications would be experienced if the software update were installed regardless. I think that we are looking to much into the fluid being the culprit, however being that the symptoms seemed to have materialized after the service does give it some validity.

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      12-13-2011 08:45 AM #16
      One more thing, the adaptation procedure this TSB mentions is assuming that old one was cleared or reset. If you do the adaptation without clearing the old one the transmission will likely treat it as just regular driving and not make any significant changes to the shift pattern.

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      12-13-2011 11:01 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      One more thing, the adaptation procedure this TSB mentions is assuming that old one was cleared or reset. If you do the adaptation without clearing the old one the transmission will likely treat it as just regular driving and not make any significant changes to the shift pattern.
      Right, I should have mentioned that. The TCM is actually re-flashed entirely by the dealer, not just poking some bits to trigger an adapt.

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      12-13-2011 02:14 PM #18
      I had a scary experience this morning with my transmission.

      It was a cold morning, -12 C, the car shifts strangely as expected, and wondering around 4th and 5th gear, seems like it can't make up it's mind on which gear to go, it will shift to 5th gear, and then shift back to 4th gear, and then shift back to 5th again. Since the transmission runs fine when it is warm, so I decided to hit the high way to warm it up a bit quickly (Later turned out to be a bad decision).

      Just when I was accelerating, and the transmission shifts from 4th to 5th, then all of a sudden, it jumps back to 4th, and then all the PRNDS lights are lit up and it won't show the current gear, the transmission jumps to limp mode, so I slowed down to a safe speed, and pulled over at the next exit. Shut the engine, and then restart the car, and then drive slowly for the rest of the trip, and it was fine again.

      But that really scared me a lot, since it happened in the middle of a high way acceleration. What in the world is going on with my transmission?

      Tomas

    19. Member
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      12-13-2011 06:06 PM #19
      Hi Brad and Charlie_M,

      I made a same post on Phaeton forum as well, from their reply, especially after the scary experience I had this morning, some say the fluid leve mgiht be too low.

      I talked to a local transmission shop this afternoon, after he heard my symptom, he said the ATF level is low right away.

      While I was at VW dealer changing ATF, the tech wasn't using the VAS 505x tool to monitor the temp when filling the ATF nor checking the level after test drove it. That might explained the low fluid theory.

      Anyway since my transmission went into Limp mode, I will do a scan with Vag-Com and see what kind of fault code I got.

      Thanks!

      Tomas

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      12-13-2011 11:37 PM #20
      OK, so tonight I scanned my transmission, and below is the transmission fault code, doesn't really tell you much, more seems like a computer glitch to me:

      1 Fault Found

      17168 - Shift Monitoring: 4-5 Shift
      P0784 - 000 - - - Intermittent
      Freeze Frame:
      RPM: 2592 /min
      RPM: 2400 /min
      RPM: 1728 /min
      (no units): 43.0
      (no units): 50.0
      Temperature: 25.0°C
      T.B.Angle: 17.2°
      Voltage: 13.20 V


      Tomas

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      12-14-2011 06:56 AM #21
      Tomas,

      It is possible the fluid is low as dropping out of gear is a common symptom, though 4-5 hunting (flip-flopping) can be other items. The computer seemed to have caught the hunting and flagged it, causing it to go into limp mode. I would expect it to show other symptoms if it was fluid and it would presumably be significantly worse when the fluid is cold as it will be at a lower level. Though, with that said, definately check the fluid and clear the codes.
      Brad

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      12-14-2011 10:39 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Tomas,

      It is possible the fluid is low as dropping out of gear is a common symptom, though 4-5 hunting (flip-flopping) can be other items. The computer seemed to have caught the hunting and flagged it, causing it to go into limp mode. I would expect it to show other symptoms if it was fluid and it would presumably be significantly worse when the fluid is cold as it will be at a lower level. Though, with that said, definately check the fluid and clear the codes.
      Brad
      Brad,

      According to the fault code, the low ATF level might actually be the cause: http://engine-codes.com/mobil/p0784_volkswagen.html

      I think we are going to the right direction here to check the fluid level first. and the service manager agreed to check the ATF level at no charge to me. I will keep everyone posted, hopefully it was something simple.

      Tomas

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      12-14-2011 02:54 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by tomasty View Post
      Brad,

      According to the fault code, the low ATF level might actually be the cause: http://engine-codes.com/mobil/p0784_volkswagen.html

      I think we are going to the right direction here to check the fluid level first. and the service manager agreed to check the ATF level at no charge to me. I will keep everyone posted, hopefully it was something simple.

      Tomas
      I forgot you had VAGCom available. I posted this in another thread about the ZF-5HP19A (aka 01V):

      I guess this is a ZF unit, 01V, right? This SSP http://www.allroadfaq.com/downloads/...i_o1v_o1vl.pdf has lots of good info on troubleshooting the 01V via scans, and exactly what the data in the measuring blocks means.

      See this thread too: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...F-trans-thread!
      VW and Audi ATs can be put into limp mode for (at least) two main reasons: either an electrical fault is detected or mis-match is detected between expected shaft speeds and detected shaft speeds. Electrical faults are usually wiring or solenoid open or short circuits, and can be either hard (continuous) or intermittent depending on what is failing. In the 5-speed ATs, limp mode forces only Reverse and 4th, so (if 6 speeds also go to 4th in limp), your 5-4 downshift was not hunting but rather commanded limp mode.

      The good news is that no solenoid codes or electrical fault codes were recorded. The bad news is that the solenoid does not necessarily do what the TCM tells it to: it may stick or delay even if the electrical signal is correct. A 'speed mismatch' cause of going into limp mode could be either a sticking solenoid or a mechanical (clutch, piston, pressure) issue allowing the slip.

      If you find a document similar to the one I linked to, but for the 6HP19, you will find a table of solenoid and clutch logic. Using that table you can find what solenoid or clutch may be causing issues. There are also tons of outputs you can measure (and log, I believe) in VAGCom, such as all the solenoid commands, solenoid current (for the pressure control valves), dynamic shift index (where you are in the economy-sport continuum), etc.

      The referenced PDF also explains something I wondered about: the TCC has three states, Open = off, Control = partial(!), and closed = locked up. The TSB we've been discussing referred to the problem in the 'control' part of the TCC operation, so I can see how fluid additive packages and TCM programming could really affect TCC clutch wear.

      I hope it *is* something simple, but I'm doubtful.
      Last edited by Charlie_M; 12-14-2011 at 10:41 PM. Reason: fixed links

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      12-14-2011 09:20 PM #24
      Tomas,

      Is your scanner set-up able to view these parameters? I was under the impression that only the higher-end scanners could observe this. I have a Snap-On Solus and would love to be able to use something cheap like Ross-tech's system. Do you Tomas or Charlie_M know of other more affordable scanners capable of observing the parameters mentioned? I hate bringing the Solus everywhere. On the link you posted ragarding the code, if you look at most of the transmission shift complaint codes you will see low fluid level as a diagnosis. Which is understood as it the easiest thing to check and can cause of myriad of complaints. Also, the links you posted (Charlie_M) are not working.

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      12-14-2011 11:18 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Tomas,

      Is your scanner set-up able to view these parameters? I was under the impression that only the higher-end scanners could observe this. I have a Snap-On Solus and would love to be able to use something cheap like Ross-tech's system. Do you Tomas or Charlie_M know of other more affordable scanners capable of observing the parameters mentioned? I hate bringing the Solus everywhere. On the link you posted ragarding the code, if you look at most of the transmission shift complaint codes you will see low fluid level as a diagnosis. Which is understood as it the easiest thing to check and can cause of myriad of complaints. Also, the links you posted (Charlie_M) are not working.
      Sorry, links are fixed now.

      Ross-Techs VCDS (as it's called now) is da Bomb on a small netbook computer; I've only scratched the surface when I've used it. Everything in a 'measuring block' can be read once or logged, say during a test drive. Of course the more things you log, the lower the sample rate, but it really helps. You can also do output tests, where you command outputs like individual solenoids, secondary air injection pump, Haldex signals, etc. Here is an example of 01V TCC troubleshooting using VCDS (CoolAirVW is a semi-regular poster in this AT forum):
      http://www.kansascitytdi.com/audi%20...tcc%20code.htm

      Here is the 'label' file for this 6HP19, which tells the program what capabilities that particular controller can communicate. Each controller has it's own label file (hope it's OK to post it)

      Code:
      ; VAG-COM Label File
      ;
      ; Audi A6 (4F) / Audi A8 (4E) / VW Phaeton (3D)
      ;
      ; Component: J217 - Transmission Electronic (#02) - 09L/6HP19
      ;
      ; P/N: 09L-927-156-???
      ;
      ; includes measuring blocks and coding
      ;
      ; This file is part of a redirection package,
      ; make sure you have all of the following files.
      ;
      ; 4E-02.LBL
      ; 4F-02.LBL
      ; 09L-927-760.LBL (09L - 6HP19)
      ;
      ; created on 06/Mar/2006 by Michael Moore (Michael@Ross-Tech.com)
      ; enhanced on 29/Jan/2008 by Sebastian Stange (Sebastian@Ross-Tech.com)
      ;
      ; last modification: 29/Jan/2008
      ;
      ; requires VAG-COM 405.0 or newer
      ;
      ;
      ;---------------------------------------------------
      ;
      ; Measuring Blocks
      ;
      ;---------------------------------------------------
      ;
      ;
      001,1,Engine Speed,,Range: 0...8160 RPM
      001,2,Transmission,Speed (G182),Specification: 0...8160 RPM
      001,3,Transmission,Outp. Speed (G195),Range: 0...8160 RPM
      001,4,Engaged Gear,,Range: 1/2/3/4/5/6/1M/R
      ;
      002,1,Curret,Shift Program,See Label File
      ;  0....4 = Steep Down Hill Driving
      ;  5....9 = Slight Down Hill Driving
      ; 10...14 = Level Road Surface
      ; 15...19 = Slight Inclination
      ; 20...24 = Large Inclination
      ; 25...26 = Winter Driving 
      ;      27 = Tiptronic Function 
      ;      29 = Limp Mode: Excessive Transmission Temperature
      ; 30...31 = Warm-Up Driving Condition
      ;      32 = City Driving
      ;      34 = Cruise Control ON: Steep Down Hill
      ;      35 = Cruise Control ON: Slight Down Hill
      ;      36 = Cruise Control ON: Level Road Surface
      ;      37 = Cruise Control ON: Slight Inclination
      ;      38 = Cruise Control ON: Large Inclination
      ;      39 = Mountain Driving with increased Transmission Temperature
      ;      40 = Tiptronic Function with increased Transmission Temperature
      ; 41...45 = Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) Function
      002,2,Accelerator Pedal,Position,Range: 0.0...100.0 %
      002,3,Transmission,Outp. Speed (G195),Range: 0...8160 RPM
      002,4,Engaged Gear,,Range: 1/2/3/4/5/6/1M/R
      ;
      003,1,Brake Light,Switch,Range: Brakes/[No Display]
      003,2,Shift Lock,Solenoid (N110),Range: PN active/PN inactive\n\nR/D/S = PN inactive\nP/N/Brake not applied = PN active\nP/N/Brake applied = PN inactive
      003,3,Vehicle Speed
      003,4,Supply Voltage,(Valves),Specification: approx. Battery Voltage
      ;
      004,1,Transmission Fluid,Temperature (G93),Range: -40.0...+150.0 °C\nSpecification (Level Check): 30.0...50.0 °C (See Factory Repair Manual for Details!!!)
      004,2,Selector Lever,Position,Range: P/Z1(P-R)/R/Z1(R-N)/N/Z2(N-D)/D/Z3(D-S)/S
      004,3,Multi-Function,Switch (F125),0010 = P\n0011 = Z1 (between P/R)\n0001 = R\n0101 = Z1 (between R/N)\n0100 = N\n1100 = Z2 (between N/D)\n1110 = D\n1111 = Z3 (between D/S)\n1101 = S
      004,4,OBD-Info,,xxx1 = Engine Start recognized\nxx1x = Warm-Up Cycle recognized\nx1xx = Driving Cycle recognized\n1xxx = Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) active
      ;
      005,1,Solenoid Valve 1,(N88),OFF = R/1/2/3\nON = 4/5/6
      005,2,Pressure Control,Valve 1 (N215)
      005,3,Pressure Control,Valve 2 (N216)
      005,4,Engaged Gear,,Range: 1/2/3/4/5/6/1M/R
      ;
      006,1,Pressure Control,Valve 3 (N217)
      006,2,Pressure Control,Valve 4 (N218)
      006,3,Pressure Control,Valve 5 (N233)
      006,4,Pressure Control,Valve 6 (N371)
      ;
      007,1,Transmission Fluid,Temperature (G93),Range: -40.0...+150.0 °C\nSpecification (Level Check): 30.0...50.0 °C (See Factory Repair Manual for Details!!!)
      007,2,Pressure Control,Valve 6 (N371)
      007,3,Torque Converter,Clutch Status
      007,4,Torque Converter,Slip
      ;
      008,1,Kick-Down,Switch,Range: Kick-Down/[No Display]
      008,2,Accelerator Pedal,Position,Range: 0.0...100.0 %
      008,3,Driving Mode,,Range: Deceleration (Engine Brake)/[No Display] (Acceleration)
      008,4,Control Module,Temperature,Range: -40.0...+150.0 °C
      ;
      009,1,Engine Torque
      009,2,Engine Speed,,Range: 0...8160 RPM
      009,3,Accelerator Pedal,Position,Range: 0.0...100.0 %
      009,4,Dynamic Shift,Program,See Label File
      ;  1 = Gear Selection According to Driving Program
      ;  8 = Shift Position P
      ; 10 = Shift Program Low Friction Value Detection
      ; 12 = Spontaneous Vehicle Delay
      ; 13 = ASR mode
      ; 15 = Tiptronic Mode
      ; 16 = Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) Mode
      ; 17 = Hot Mode
      ; 18 = Warm-Up Program
      ; 20 = Spontaneous Down-Shift
      ; 26 = Selecting Gear
      ;
      010,1,Torque Converter,Amplification,Range: 0.00...2.55
      010,2,Engine Speed,,Range: 0...8160 RPM
      010,3,Engaged Gear,,Range: 1/2/3/4/5/6/1M/R
      010,4,Acceleration
      ;
      011,1,Selector Lever,Position,Range: P/Z1(P-R)/R/Z1(R-N)/N/Z2(N-D)/D/Z3(D-S)/S
      011,2,Tiptronic Switch,(F189) Recognition,Range: M-Switch (Operated)/[No Display] (Not Operated)
      011,3,Tiptronic Switch,(F189) Up/Down,Range: Up Switch/Down Switch/[No Display] (Not Operated)
      011,4,Tiptronic Buttons,&& Shift Paddels,See Label File
      ; xxxx1 = Tiptronic Down Switch (Selector Lever)
      ; xxx1x = Tiptronic Recognition Switch (selector Lever)
      ; xx1xx = Tiptronic Up Switch (Selector Lever)
      ; x1xxx = Tiptronic Up Switch (Steering Wheel)
      ; 1xxxx = Tiptronic Down Switch (Steering Wheel)
      ;
      012,1,Nominal,Engine Torque
      012,2,Engine Variant,(ECU Signal)
      012,3,Transm. Variant,(ECU Signal)
      012,4,CAN Software Level,(ECU Signal)
      ;
      013,1,Selector Lever,Position,Range: P/Z1(P-R)/R/Z1(R-N)/N/Z2(N-D)/D/Z3(D-S)/S
      013,2,Shift Lock,Solenoid (N110),Range: PN active/PN inactive\n\nR/D/S = PN inactive\nP/N/Brake not applied = PN active\nP/N/Brake applied = PN inactive
      013,3,Multi-Function,Switch (F125),0010 = P\n0011 = Z1 (between P/R)\n0001 = R\n0101 = Z1 (between R/N)\n0100 = N\n1100 = Z2 (between N/D)\n1110 = D\n1111 = Z3 (between D/S)\n1101 = S
      013,4,Voltage,(Terminal 30),Specification: min. 9.0 V
      ;
      014,1,Transmission Fluid,Temperature (G93),Range: -40.0...+150.0 °C\nSpecification (Level Check): 30.0...50.0 °C (See Factory Repair Manual for Details!!!)
      014,2,Control Module,Temperature,Range: -40.0...+150.0 °C
      014,3,Thermal Protection,,Range: 0 (not active) / 1 (active)\nSpecification: 0
      014,4,Maximum,Engine Torque
      ;
      015,4,Transmission Fluid,Temperature (G93),Range: -40.0...+150.0 °C\nSpecification (Level Check): 30.0...50.0 °C (See factory Repair Manual for Details!!!)
      ;
      16,1,Accelerator Pedal,Position,Range: 0.0...100.0 %
      16,2,Vehicle Speed
      16,3,Curret,Shift Program,See Label File
      ;  0....4 = Steep Down Hill Driving
      ;  5....9 = Slight Down Hill Driving
      ; 10...14 = Level Road Surface
      ; 15...19 = Slight Inclination
      ; 20...24 = Large Inclination
      ; 25...26 = Winter Driving 
      ;      27 = Tiptronic Function 
      ;      29 = Limp Mode: Excessive Transmission Temperature
      ; 30...31 = Warm-Up Driving Condition
      ;      32 = City Driving
      ;      34 = Cruise Control ON: Steep Down Hill
      ;      35 = Cruise Control ON: Slight Down Hill
      ;      36 = Cruise Control ON: Level Road Surface
      ;      37 = Cruise Control ON: Slight Inclination
      ;      38 = Cruise Control ON: Large Inclination
      ;      39 = Mountain Driving with increased Transmission Temperature
      ;      40 = Tiptronic Function with increased Transmission Temperature
      ; 41...45 = Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) Function
      016,4,Dynamic Shift,Program,See Label File
      ;  1 = Gear Selection According to Driving Program
      ;  8 = Shift Position P
      ; 10 = Shift Program Low Friction Value Detection
      ; 12 = Spontaneous Vehicle Delay
      ; 13 = ASR mode
      ; 15 = Tiptronic Mode
      ; 16 = Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) Mode
      ; 17 = Hot Mode
      ; 18 = Warm-Up Program
      ; 20 = Spontaneous Down-Shift
      ; 26 = Selecting Gear
      ;
      017,1,Control Module,Afterrun,Range: Afterrun/[No Display]
      017,2,Supply Voltage,(Terminal 30)
      017,3,Supply Voltage,(Terminal 15)
      017,4,CAN-Information,(Terminal 15),Range: Term 15 On/Term 15 Off
      ;
      125,0,CAN-Databus Powertrain (Communication)
      125,1,Engine,Electronics,Specification: Engine 1\nDisplay Range: Engine 1/Engine 0
      125,2,Brake Electronics,,Specification: ABS 1\nRange: ABS 1/ABS 0
      125,3,Steering Angle,Sensor (G85),Specification: Steer. ang. 1\nRange: Steer. ang. 1/Steer. ang. 0
      125,4,Instrument Cluster,,Specification: Instruments 1\nRange: Instruments 1/Instruments 0
      ;
      126,0,CAN-Databus Powertrain (Communication)
      126,1,Distance,Regulation (J428),Specification: Distance 1\nDisplay Range: Distance 1/Distance 0
      126,2,Parking Brake,Electronics (J540),Specification: Park Brake 1\nDisplay Range: Park Brake 1/Park Brake 0
      126,3,Steering Wheel,Electronics (J527),Specification: St. Wheel 1\nRange: St. Wheel 1/St. Wheel 0
      126,4,Gateway,(J533),Specification: Gateway 1\nRange: Gateway 1/Gateway 0
      ;
      127,0,CAN-Databus Powertrain (Communication)
      127,1,Level Control,,Range: Level 1/Level 0
      ;
      ;
      ;---------------------------------------------------
      ;
      ; Coding
      ;
      ;---------------------------------------------------
      ;
      ;
      C00,Automatic Transmission 09L/6HP19 (J217) Coding
      C01,000?x0x: Tiptronic Buttons
      C02,0 = Tiptronic Buttons/Paddles not installed
      C03,1 = Tiptronic Buttons/Paddles installed
      C04,000x?xx: Unknown
      C05,0 = Unknown (Audi)
      C06,1 = Unknown (Volkswagen)
      C07,000xx0?: Region/Powertrain
      C08,1 = All-Wheel-Drive (Rest of World)
      C09,2 = All-Wheel-Drive (North American Region)
      C10,3 = Front-Wheel-Drive (Rest of World)
      C11,4 = Front-Wheel-Drive (North American Region)
      C12, 
      C13,NOTE: Engine must be turned OFF before Transmission Coding can be changed.
      ;

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