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    Thread: Phaeton ATF Concern (Please Help!)

    1. Member
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      01-15-2012 07:06 AM #36
      All,

      I stand corrected. It is plain as day that it is a 6HP19FLA, I apologize. Yes, I see that Wikipedia is wrong so will likely fix that, but I have other sources that say it is the 6HP26. 4.5 hours to swap the fluid and re-flash the computer? A skilled technician can remove the whole transmission in 4.5 hours!
      The fluid you mention retails at $45 per unit ($46 canadian dollar) directly from VW, whether that is quart or liter or what ever and if you multiply that by 6 you get $270, which is still absurd, kind of a monopoly of sort on VW/ZF's part because people are afraid to switch to alternative fluids. Transmission fluid is not as complex as they make you believe. Many shops stock one or two generic fluids (Dexron VI and Mercon V) and then add the appropriate additive to supplement friction modifiers and they have no problem whatsoever. CVT transmissions cannot use this combination so they would require a different fluid altogether.
      In terms of your shift concerns, give it time to set the adapts and then go from there. I know it is a waiting game, but damage will not likely happen as long as there isn't any slipping; the transmission can deal with mild banging but not slipping.
      I don't think that you need to go to New York to visit Nat, but I would call him or email him to pick his brain though. I know what you mean with loosing faith in VW, I have my first VW, an 08 Jetta 2.5, which I enjoy for what it is but it has the nightmare of a transmission, the 09G, and I had to rebuild and experiment with the VB at about 65000 miles. This was all because the dealer wouldn't recognize that it had a problem, due to their ineptness. They did finally replace the VB, but the clutches were burnt so I had to deal with that end. It pissed me off, but in hindsight, the car is reliable, easy to fix, and parts are fairly priced, but it wasn't the first impression I was looking for. Keep your head up.

      Brad

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      01-15-2012 07:37 AM #37
      I fixed the Wikipedia entry so it should be accurate.

      Brad

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      01-15-2012 06:11 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by tomasty View Post
      Hi Brad and Charlie_M,

      Thanks for your guys’ professional and helping attitude, I must say after my bad treatment at the VW dealer, I feel like I would never buy another VW anymore despite they are great cars and I already have two of them, because I don’t want to deal with the bad service and support VW has in North America anymore. But this forum, perhaps can change my mind.

      To Charlie_M: right now ther harsh shift on 3-4, 4-5 when cold seems gone, occasionally I still got mild one on 4-5 gear change(actually only happens twice on 400 KMs drive so far), but the RPM surging problem is still there, it is arround 1300 RPM to 2000 RPM, when my foot is light on gas, and gear is not shifting, the RPM just jump up and down by it self

      Tomas
      Seems like a lot of hours for the work that was done. These forums are tremendously helpful even if you rely on someone else to do the work; fore-warned is fore-armed as they say.

      Anyway, does the surging happen when you would normally expect the torque converter to be locked up? If so, you may be seeing the same thing as the well-known problem torque converter clutch seal problem on the ZF5HP19 series of transmissions. There is a good write-up of the symptoms, causes, and repairs here:
      http://www.articlesbase.com/cars-art...ns-350850.html

      Please read it for yourself and see what you think. A few things don't fit though: yours is 6HP19, not 5HP19, and there are usually codes stored when the problem is detected. You have none of those codes, right? Perhaps codes are stored only when the problem is more frequent? I know with engine codes in particular, they have to appear a certain number of times in a certain number of miles, before they are deemed to be valid and the MIL is turned on.

      Nat could probably tell you right away if the problem appears on both 6HP19 and 5HP19 units.

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      01-15-2012 07:42 PM #39
      Another helpful article for the 5HP19.

      http://www.sonnax.com/system/pdfs/15...pdf?1289926277

      Brad

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      01-15-2012 10:15 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      All,

      I stand corrected. It is plain as day that it is a 6HP19FLA, I apologize. Yes, I see that Wikipedia is wrong so will likely fix that, but I have other sources that say it is the 6HP26. 4.5 hours to swap the fluid and re-flash the computer? A skilled technician can remove the whole transmission in 4.5 hours!
      The fluid you mention retails at $45 per unit ($46 canadian dollar) directly from VW, whether that is quart or liter or what ever and if you multiply that by 6 you get $270, which is still absurd, kind of a monopoly of sort on VW/ZF's part because people are afraid to switch to alternative fluids. Transmission fluid is not as complex as they make you believe. Many shops stock one or two generic fluids (Dexron VI and Mercon V) and then add the appropriate additive to supplement friction modifiers and they have no problem whatsoever. CVT transmissions cannot use this combination so they would require a different fluid altogether.
      In terms of your shift concerns, give it time to set the adapts and then go from there. I know it is a waiting game, but damage will not likely happen as long as there isn't any slipping; the transmission can deal with mild banging but not slipping.
      I don't think that you need to go to New York to visit Nat, but I would call him or email him to pick his brain though. I know what you mean with loosing faith in VW, I have my first VW, an 08 Jetta 2.5, which I enjoy for what it is but it has the nightmare of a transmission, the 09G, and I had to rebuild and experiment with the VB at about 65000 miles. This was all because the dealer wouldn't recognize that it had a problem, due to their ineptness. They did finally replace the VB, but the clutches were burnt so I had to deal with that end. It pissed me off, but in hindsight, the car is reliable, easy to fix, and parts are fairly priced, but it wasn't the first impression I was looking for. Keep your head up.

      Brad
      Thanks Brad, I would contact Nat next week and see what his opinion is on this. I hope it is still adopting to the new software, and will give it some time.

      One question though, what is the difference between transmission banging and slipping? Now I am kind of not sure if what I felt is a bang or slip?

      And when you say the 09G is a trouble transmission, that worries me as well, cause I also have a 2011 Golf 2.5, it also use the 09G transmission, what is the issue with this transmission? To be honest, I always feel my Golf's transmission should be more smooth since it is a brand new car. My beef with it is that: whent the car move off from stand still, it feels like the power is abrupt, like it can't wait to jump to the second gear. I just assume that is what is supposed to be since it is a new car, is it normal or it is just my paranoia? I thought maybe the transmission just learned some bad habit at tha factory or at the dealer, and was going to reset the adoption program.

      Tomas
      Last edited by tomasty; 01-15-2012 at 10:18 PM.

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      01-15-2012 10:46 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_M View Post
      Seems like a lot of hours for the work that was done. These forums are tremendously helpful even if you rely on someone else to do the work; fore-warned is fore-armed as they say.

      Anyway, does the surging happen when you would normally expect the torque converter to be locked up? If so, you may be seeing the same thing as the well-known problem torque converter clutch seal problem on the ZF5HP19 series of transmissions. There is a good write-up of the symptoms, causes, and repairs here:
      http://www.articlesbase.com/cars-art...ns-350850.html

      Please read it for yourself and see what you think. A few things don't fit though: yours is 6HP19, not 5HP19, and there are usually codes stored when the problem is detected. You have none of those codes, right? Perhaps codes are stored only when the problem is more frequent? I know with engine codes in particular, they have to appear a certain number of times in a certain number of miles, before they are deemed to be valid and the MIL is turned on.

      Nat could probably tell you right away if the problem appears on both 6HP19 and 5HP19 units.
      Thanks guys for the info,

      I have read both articles you guys provided, I am aware of this problem with 5 speed ZF trans on W12 Phaeton, the Phaeton forum already have lots of discussion on this, and my problem is different I believe: First, I didn't get any MIL lights on the dash, and when scan with Vag-Com, no error stored in TCM, besides the limp mode error I got at one time that you guys already know. Second, the 5 Speed problem happens at higher speed (45 mph and above), but my surging problem happens at lower speed(between 20 mph to 30 mph), I am not sure if the 6 speed and 5 speed shared the same torque converter, but according to Phaeton forum, the problem is only on W12.

      Here is a post from the Phaeton forum that talking about the surging problem that I have and W12 5 speed problem:

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2841889

      And the below post discuss about V8 Phaeton transmission problem, some people does have similar problem that I have, and VW's solution was to replace the transmission under warranty, but nobody really knows what the problem is, and I don't have warranty on my Phaeton.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2420606

      I have read all the posts on Phaeton forum about transmissions, still don't know what the problem is with my transmission. Basically the solution was:

      1. Just changing ATF fixed some people's problem
      2. Flush ATF, drain and refill and then flash TCM just like what has been done on my Phaeton
      3. Trans Oil cooler damaged and engine coolant mixed with ATF
      4. Replace torque convertor or valve body
      5. Replace the entire transmission

      I have tried the first two already, and the third one shouldn't apply, becuase if it does, the dealer should notice the abnormal ATF(Accordig to them, the old ATF seems normal. God, should I trust them again on this?) I hope I don't need to get into the last two options.


      Tomas
      Last edited by tomasty; 01-15-2012 at 10:53 PM.

    7. 01-16-2012 06:55 AM #42
      Tomas -

      It's too late to give suggestions but maybe you'll find them helpful in the future...

      ATF & Filter: From the pix you posted, ATF & filter change looks like something you can tackle yourself. $484 for 6L ($80.67/L) is a legalized robbery. You can buy ZF or VW/Audi OEM ATF at ECSTuning for $42-44 US per liter. Not sure where you can buy the filter... maybe PelicanParts.com or just get it from the dealer.

      Maintenance: You may want to read my thread for kicks... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...8baloney!!!%29. Now I'm no pro but I do believe you waited too long to change the ATF and the new fluid's detergent might be playing havoc with your tranny... plus the fact that the VW Tech didn't check the fluid level may have added to the problem. New fluid, in a high mileage tranny that hasn't seen regular service, can cause problems. The detergents in the new ATF can break down crud which is then circulated through out the tranny. If this is indeed the problem, you may want to drop the pan, replace the filter and refill the ATF after 500 miles. Hopefully, whatever crud that is loose will come out with the old fluid.

      My '01 New Beetle (01M auto) has its ATF drain/refill and filter change at every 50k mile interval. Only 3L of the 5L capacity (60%) is drained, leaving 40% of the old fluid in the convertor. That's it. At 197k miles, I'm either doing something right or I'm just stupid lucky... or both.

      As for ATF mixing with antifreeze/coolant, you can check the coolant reservoir/tank. If the coolant looks like chocolate shake, then you have oil in the coolant and/or coolant in the oil Check the motor oil for the same, if it looks normal then the ATF has gotten into the coolant via the ATF/coolant heat exchanger.

      Dealer: VW dealers can sometimes be the best places to destroy your car, especially one that is unique as your Phaeton. Because there are so few of them in N.America, few techs have the expertise to work on them. They follow the technical literature which may not be up-to-date or sometimes inaccurate. So make sure your VW dealer's service department has a solid reputation. I usually rely on the local V-Dub community for recommendation, search the internet, read reviews, etc. There are 7 VW dealers within 30 minutes of my residence but I trust only 2 of them. I notice that family-owned & operated dealers seem to have better service than large corporate chain dealers. Family dealers understand that good service is a life-saver during economic downturns when car sales is slow. Corporate chain dealers have more cash to move around so they emphasize sales over service. The one I go to will have cars lining up at 6.30am Monday to Saturday.

      Final comment: nice looking Phaeton and the undercarriage looks clean.

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      01-16-2012 06:59 AM #43
      Tomas,

      Addressing the 09G concern, these transmissions are, for the most part quite adequate internally except for a sleeve that could spin in the case causingn 3-4 shift problems and lack of 4th altogether, but this isn't very common. Their weka spot, as with almost every Aisin Warner transmission is the VB itself and the solenoids and software. The VB is the main problem child, though. The problems are numerous, but primarily they suffer from banging upshifts and/or downshifts, which can also be TCM adapt problems, so it is hard to diagnose these units because of how much overlap there is between VB being the cause and computer. You didn't go into much detail of your concern here but what you did describe sounds quite normal. If you are seeing more of a firm, positve shift than this is fine. These units aren't like some Allison transmissions which actually change the shift characteristics according to the driver, instead they set the characterisitics based on a window of "possibilities" which it determines from speed senors, primarily. If it notices overlapping or neutralization of shifts, with reason, it will change solenoid signals to minimize/eliminate this. So it is not likely that your trans caught the flu, per se.

      The difference between a slip and a bang is easy, but these descriptors are sort of ambiguous. A bang is just that, the shift happens so fast that the car jolts, sometimes uncomfortably, which unless extreme, the transmission has no problem with this mechanically. Slipping is in the other direction of feel. A slip, when significant, will make a shift feel almost non-existant but you see the tachometer slowly drop signifiying a gear change. A slip is when the shift takes to long to apply because the pressure to the clutch is slow to get line pressure. This is almost always caused by a leak somewhere internally. Slips are death for clutches and if they go on for a long time can cause heat damage to hard parts of the transmission. Now a word about slipping, many cars have soft shifts and this is intended because many drivers don't want a firm, positive shift. So don't just to a soft shift as being a slip, it may be intended. TCC's are almost always slipping, this is how they are designed to work and use clutches able to handle this.

      I am skeptical that you have a TCC problme as your issue seemed to show itself after the work done, which makes me think is either VB or software, but likely the latter. The order of events you present is true but a common misconception exists here, specifically, in regards to the fluid change. I won't go into this too far but fluid flushes/fill is used as a preventative measure, not a solution to a problem. So if you are having issues, it is unlikely a flush will fix a problem. However, there are instances where this happen, but this is due to a restricted filter. One has to think about what was restricting it; likely clutch material, bushing material, etc. so the transmission is has issues regardless, so it can be a Band-Aid of sorts.

      I would give the adapt more time to fine-tune itself. I would say if it came to something needing to be replaced it will likely be VB. These are particularly prone to issues as there aren't a lot of valve updates for it. not meant to be a kick in the pants, but a rebuilt unit from Eriksson for your car, I believe, is around $2500 USD (not removed or installed however). These transmissions are rather easy to build so I wouldn't be too stressed if it ever comes to this as if you wanted to, I beleive you could likely rebuild it yourself. Anyway, call Nat and pick his brain, he has always been very frinedly and willing to share his knowledge with me. Good luck!

      Brad
      Last edited by bjohns86; 01-16-2012 at 07:05 AM.

    9. 01-16-2012 06:59 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      All,
      I know what you mean with loosing faith in VW, I have my first VW, an 08 Jetta 2.5, which I enjoy for what it is but it has the nightmare of a transmission, the 09G, and I had to rebuild and experiment with the VB at about 65000 miles. This was all because the dealer wouldn't recognize that it had a problem, due to their ineptness. They did finally replace the VB, but the clutches were burnt so I had to deal with that end. It pissed me off, but in hindsight, the car is reliable, easy to fix, and parts are fairly priced, but it wasn't the first impression I was looking for. Keep your head up.

      Brad
      Brad - sorry to hear about your tranny problem. Do you know if VW sorted out the 09G already? I'm considering the Golf or Beetle 2.5L with the 09G as a future purchase.

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      01-16-2012 07:49 AM #45
      cadenza_7o,

      I have worked out the kinks now, but at the time there were no parts available for this unit; now they are more accessible. This experience has allowed me to become very proficient at troubleshooting the 09G., though I shouldn't jinx myself. Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about this transmission if you are getting a new car, but if it is used, make sure you give a sufficient test drive before you purchase as the issues are more intermittant than not. Let me know if I can be of further help.

      Brad
      Last edited by bjohns86; 01-16-2012 at 07:52 AM.

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      01-16-2012 01:48 PM #46
      Hi Cadenza_7o,

      Thanks for the reply, actually it was your post that made me decided to change ATF on my Phaeton, I bought the car has 166,000 KMs on the clock, and I have only put on 4000 KMs so far. My guess is that the previous owners just believe whatever VW told them and never had the ATF changed. So I wasn't really given much chances.

      I know I have been ripped off badly this time, but I did have done lots of research on the dealers before I went, there is a VW dealer in where I live, but I don't trust them at all, the one I pick is 300 KMs from home, and was actually recommended by another VW dealer I contacted, because this dealer has the only Phaeton tech in the entire province, and the review was not bad neither, but my experience this time told me different.

      Interesting you mentioned the new ATF might play the role on high milage transmission, the service manager told me the same thing when the problem first started. Maybe that is why they want to do the second drain/refill process, but they didn't change the filter on the second drain.

      I did check the coolant tank, it is pink, and no dropping on the fluid level, and the dealer said the old ATF color seems just slightly darker than the new ATF, so hopefully there is no problem with the ATF/coolant heat exchanger.

      I think from now on I will try to find a private trusted mechanic who knows German cars, might be hard to find, but I think I am done with dealers.

      Tomas

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      01-16-2012 02:44 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Tomas
      I am skeptical that you have a TCC problme as your issue seemed to show itself after the work done, which makes me think is either VB or software, but likely the latter.
      Well if the surging does not improve with age, at least Tomas has the tools to see for sure whether the TCC is slipping. Using VCDS, we can log the same measuring blocks that VW uses to confirm the need for torque converter replacement per the (5-speed!) VW technical bulletin here:
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/attachmen...9&d=1304878825

      We can log Measuring block #7, which will show TCC status in field #3 (open, control, or closed) as well as TCC slip in field #4 (RPM difference). For the 5-speed, VW TSB specified to replace the TC if the slip was over 120 RPM in control or over 10 RPM when closed.

      I would give the adapt more time to fine-tune itself.

      Brad
      I agree. If the problem persists, then we can talk more about how to log the data while you are driving to reproduce the problem. Of course Brad or Ned may have other (better) suggestions of what things to log while driving (I posted the data available for logging earlier in this thread).

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      01-17-2012 12:10 AM #48
      Thanks guys for all the inputs.

      I will give it some time and keep driving it, see if things will change.

      I have also sent a email to Nat, will keep you guys posted when I heard something.

      Tomas

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      01-17-2012 11:10 PM #49
      Hi guys, I received a reply from Nat, he replied my email the second day, what a great man! And he brought up some interesting points:

      It is hard to say exactly what is going on but I suspect there are two things happening. The 3-4 and 4-5 shifting problems concerns me because we have seen a few of these transmissions have severe wear issues with bushings inside the transmission. Clutch "B" is particularly susceptible to problems due to fact it is supported by several shafts that can each have worn bushings and the cumulative effect ends up at the "B" clutch drum. Fixing that may require disassembly and replacement of bushings.

      The surging sounds like possible torque converter clutch issue. I know that Audi/VW had more issues with this than BMW or Jaguar and their solution is to change oil to 8 speed oil ( blue color) and reprogram TCM. I assume that the dealership got it right (at least the 2nd time) but I cannot cross the oil p/n to a ZF p/n so I'm not sure

      Nat

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      01-18-2012 08:31 AM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by tomasty View Post
      Hi guys, I received a reply from Nat, he replied my email the second day, what a great man! And he brought up some interesting points:

      The surging sounds like possible torque converter clutch issue. I know that Audi/VW had more issues with this than BMW or Jaguar and their solution is to change oil to 8 speed oil ( blue color) and reprogram TCM. I assume that the dealership got it right (at least the 2nd time) but I cannot cross the oil p/n to a ZF p/n so I'm not sure

      Nat
      There is a flyer about OEM <--> ZF oil P/N interchange here: http://www.thectsc.com/index.php?p=p...e_id=tech_info Look for the 'LifeGuard Fluids' brochure; seem they have quite a bit of ZF info and parts available.

      ZF LifeGuard8 crosses to VW G060162. (The A1, A2 suffix refers to the size of the container AFAIK)

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      01-18-2012 01:22 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by tomasty View Post
      I know that Audi/VW had more issues with this than BMW or Jaguar and their solution is to change oil to 8 speed oil ( blue color) and reprogram TCM. I assume that the dealership got it right (at least the 2nd time)
      Nat[/B]
      I know the second time the VW dealer put in the same G060162A2, and it is not blue in color, it is honey color, so they might have done it wrong again.

      At this point, I really don't know what to do, I think I will just keep driving it and hope it is a TCM software issue, and pray to God that one day it will be all back to normal.

      Thanks guys for all the helps you guys offered, especially to Brad and Charlie_M, you guys are the most professional, knowledgable and kind hearted forum members I have ever seen.

      I really love my Phaeton, and hope to keep it for a long time, maybe one day when I have all the tools and resources and knowledge, I can rebuild the transmission myself. But at this point, I can't spend any more money on it, otherwise my wife would kill me

      Tomas

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      01-18-2012 03:34 PM #52
      Just got another email from Nat today, he said he was wrong about the color of the 8 speed ATF, it should be green, not blue, and the part number G060162A2 seems to the 8 speed ATF, but dealer told me the color is honey, Oh, I am so confused now.

      Tomas

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      01-19-2012 05:13 PM #53
      Tomas,

      Put the TCC concern to bed by using the VCDS program you have and graph or log and then graph the TCC slip speed, solenoid amperage draw, and engine rpm, input rpm. With these, you can see what the TCM is commanding of the TCC, what the slip speed is at commanded current, as well as monitor for slipping by comparing the engine rpm to the input speed sensor signal. If you are getting unacceptable TCC slippage or hangup, it is likely to be caught by the TCM, but if not you may be able to visually see what is going on. If you see what is happening but cannot explain it you can send the graph to me or Nat or anyone else for that matter and get another viewpoint. I am going to speculate that it isn't due to the fluid as once you change to the "right" fluid, if there ever was a mistake made here, then the problem would go away, assuming no lasting damage was done to the TCC, which I doubt there was. If you are unfamiliar with how to do this I can walk you through it. Good luck!

      Brad

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      01-19-2012 05:17 PM #54
      Also, don't put too much faith in fluid color as Audi could have a different color than BMW which may have a different color than ZF. If you are still concerned, call another dealer, say, in Minnesota or Ontario and ask the service or parts department guy if they know what color the fluid is of the part number you mentioned, or simply squeeze under your can and loosen the drain/fill plug until a little stream starts; no need to worry about this negligible loss!

      Brad

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      02-22-2012 07:04 AM #55
      Tomas,

      Any news on your Phaeton?

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      05-24-2012 03:21 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Tomas,

      Any news on your Phaeton?
      Hi Brad,

      Sorry I didn't see your reply till now, haven’t log in to the forum for quite a bit of time.

      My Phaeton has been sitting in the garage for the most of the time during the past few months, only drove it on the weekend, as I was a bit of afraid to drive it now. so far only has put on about 800 KMs on it since the incident.

      The RPM surging problem and flare shift is still there, but once the transmission is warmed up, like say after 5 to 6 KMs of driving then everything is fine. I understand last time we discussed this, we figure the TCM might need some time to fine tune the shift point, the TSB says 500 mils, 800 KMs is probably not enough yet. so I am patiently waiting for it to get better on its own and try to learn to live with it.

      I am planning to take it to a long high way trip (3000 KMs)in the next few months, hope that will help with the transmission adoption.

      Thanks for still remembering me and I will keep you posted if anything changed.

      Worst case, I am hoping one day I can run into a talent person like you to rebuild the transmission or save enough money to get a new transmission once for all.

      Tomas

    22. Member
      Join Date
      Nov 7th, 2011
      Location
      Woodbury, MN
      Posts
      323
      Vehicles
      2008 VW Jetta 2.5
      05-25-2012 07:44 AM #57
      Did you ever get ahold of Nat of at Eriksson Industries regarding this?

    23. Member
      Join Date
      May 24th, 2011
      Location
      Alberta, Canada
      Posts
      167
      Vehicles
      2004 VW Phaeton V8, 2011 VW Golf Mk6, 2011 Mercedes-Benz C-Class
      05-25-2012 12:58 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by bjohns86 View Post
      Did you ever get ahold of Nat of at Eriksson Industries regarding this?
      Hi Brad,

      Yes I did, and I posted his reply on post #49. Without get hold of the actual car, all he can do is guessing as well.

    24. n00b
      Join Date
      Aug 17th, 2010
      Location
      Tennessee
      Posts
      5
      Vehicles
      2004 VW Phaeton
      11-19-2012 10:12 AM #59
      Any new feedback regarding your surging issue?

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