50% of the American population — poor or low income

[O_G]

new data

And yet retailers are forecasting better holiday shopping sales. I guess Black Friday month has been going particularly well.

Debt is selling well—the delusion of a standard of living being maintained rather than being stolen piece-by-piece.

It's OK, though, more Americans are now using food stamps than ever before. As long as people can eat, they can continue to buy debt.

[O_G]

Speaking of debt:



Why?

while CEOs and shareholders have been cashing in, wages as a percent of the economy have dropped to an all-time low.

[Swapped6n]

Interesting, seriously.


I hope we can keep this thread going on a decent level though.

[Chilledman]

such a joke .

I cant imagine why half the population is broke , its mostly full with idiots that dont want to work, cant manage there money. Or that happy with a job that is just a place to keep there time filled with .

Its not that hard to get into the top 10% , all it takes is some hard work ( OMG I know) and some drive.

Well that and not spending the majority of your time goofing off on FB or other websites and actually working while at work.

Its the people who acutally work , who invented something , who acutally do something who make it to the top 1% - or the kids who got lucky and born into .

But hey there the evil ones

[Egilbe]

such a joke .

I cant imagine why half the population is broke , its mostly full with idiots that dont want to work, cant manage there money. Or that happy with a job that is just a place to keep there time filled with .

Its not that hard to get into the top 10% , all it takes is some hard work ( OMG I know) and some drive.

Well that and not spending the majority of your time goofing off on FB or other websites and actually working while at work.

Its the people who acutally work , who invented something , who acutally do something who make it to the top 1% - or the kids who got lucky and born into .

But hey there the evil ones

You do realize if everyone thought like you, no one would buy or sell anything, not even heating and cooling systems? Our species would become extinct, because no one would have any kids. Just because you think a certain way doesn't make it right or wrong, just different.

[Chilledman]

You do realize if everyone thought like you, no one would buy or sell anything, not even heating and cooling systems? Our species would become extinct, because no one would have any kids. Just because you think a certain way doesn't make it right or wrong, just different.

We could thin out the herd on this planet by 25% and the majority wont be missed. Or even noticed that there gone.

People would buy stuff , I buy stuff every single day , granted I am much more self relient then most here .
- I just bought a inducer fan motor for my furnace today ....
I also take the time to make sure every month what my budget is and spend with in that budget .

Also on kids , just think of the benfit if people were tested before being able to have kids , and amazing benifits that would entail , not only just simple geneitcs but on the care those kids would recive . Your foolish to belive that letting everyone and anyone have kids is a good idea.

[Brake_Dust]

such a joke .

I cant imagine why half the population is broke , its mostly full with idiots that dont want to work, cant manage there money. Or that happy with a job that is just a place to keep there time filled with .

Its not that hard to get into the top 10% , all it takes is some hard work ( OMG I know) and some drive.

Well that and not spending the majority of your time goofing off on FB or other websites and actually working while at work.

Its the people who acutally work , who invented something , who acutally do something who make it to the top 1% - or the kids who got lucky and born into .

But hey there the evil ones

spelling and cardboard cut out reasoning fail..

sorry had to..

back on topic

[Chilledman]

spelling and cardboard cut out reasoning fail..

sorry had to..

back on topic

LOL ok since speeeling makes the world go round , I wish I could find the graph that shows the intellegence levels in the US and you wonder why 50% is broke idiots.

[synthsis]

Its not that hard to get into the top 10% , all it takes is some hard work ( OMG I know) and some drive.

Ok, so you're in the top 10% of our economic society? I'm not trolling, I honestly want to know.

[Egilbe]

Ok, so you're in the top 10% of our economic society? I'm not trolling, I honestly want to know.

yeah, he probably is, but he's a lot closer to the bottom 90% than the top 1%

[seymore15074]

such a joke .

I cant imagine why half the population is broke , its mostly full with idiots that dont want to work, cant manage there money. Or that happy with a job that is just a place to keep there time filled with .

Its not that hard to get into the top 10% , all it takes is some hard work ( OMG I know) and some drive.

Well that and not spending the majority of your time goofing off on FB or other websites and actually working while at work.

Its the people who acutally work , who invented something , who acutally do something who make it to the top 1% - or the kids who got lucky and born into .

But hey there the evil ones

o rly?

[trbochrg]

such a joke .


Its not that hard to get into the top 10% , all it takes is some hard work ( OMG I know) and some drive.

You don’t have to agree with everything that Chilledman says, but I totally agree that about the hard work. You may not get into the top 10% but you can be well above the poverty level.

We moved to the US (Legally for the record) when my parents were 40 and 34 years old respectively back in 1980 (i was 3). They were farmers and had lived on an island that was 7 miles wide and about 11 miles long for their entire lives, they sold their cattle to help pay to come to the US. They kept their house and all of the farmland that they owned at the time.

The US was really a new world to them, they got jobs working in factories and cleaning office buildings. They did not speak English. They were able to buy a house and a car and didn’t have credit cards. We were never hungry and always had the essentials. I may not have had brand name clothes the first few years and did have to wear hand me downs quite a bit but I never went to school with holes in my shoes or clothes. McDonalds was a treat that we got to go to once every 3 months or so if we were lucky.

My parents are retired now, they own their home outright and go on vacation back to "the old country" once a year where they still have their little house and all of their farmland.

Unfortunately (as may have already been covered in previous posts) many people just don’t want to work if they can avoid it and blame everyone else for their financial problems.

[Chilledman]

I sure hope you dont agree with everything I type , I post some crazy ass stuff

[GeoffD]

You don’t have to agree with everything that Chilledman says, but I totally agree that about the hard work. You may not get into the top 10% but you can be well above the poverty level.

We moved to the US (Legally for the record) when my parents were 40 and 34 years old respectively back in 1980 (i was 3). They were farmers and had lived on an island that was 7 miles wide and about 11 miles long for their entire lives, they sold their cattle to help pay to come to the US. They kept their house and all of the farmland that they owned at the time.

The US was really a new world to them, they got jobs working in factories and cleaning office buildings. They did not speak English. They were able to buy a house and a car and didn’t have credit cards. We were never hungry and always had the essentials. I may not have had brand name clothes the first few years and did have to wear hand me downs quite a bit but I never went to school with holes in my shoes or clothes. McDonalds was a treat that we got to go to once every 3 months or so if we were lucky.

My parents are retired now, they own their home outright and go on vacation back to "the old country" once a year where they still have their little house and all of their farmland.

Unfortunately (as may have already been covered in previous posts) many people just don’t want to work if they can avoid it and blame everyone else for their financial problems.

Was the 7 x 11 mile island in the Azores?

I was born in New Bedford, Ma. That part of the country has always had a big Azores immigration. I can think of a bunch of rags-to-riches or at least rags to comfortable middle/upper middle class stories. I think the distinction is that the people had a good work ethic and were born pretty bright. The people who were lazy or not particularly bright probably stayed in the Azores. I don't think work ethic alone gets it done. You also need the good luck to be born with above-average intelligence. Stupid people can only handle repetitive task jobs and those don't pay well in 2011 when we don't have unions and there's always the threat of pushing the job to Asia.

If you moved to a decaying New England mill town now, you'd have a lot less opportunity than 1980. There are a heck of a lot less jobs and section 8 has pushed rent costs up.

[Jader Pack]

But hey there the evil ones

As someone who is currently top 25% and plans to reach top 5-10%, I disagree with your general sentiment as well as reject your strawman. The OP did not say the top X% are evil; rather, the implication is that the system is not functioning correctly. If the vast majority of people are struggling, I would agree with that sentiment.

I also reject your convenient way of closing your mind to the problem: I highly doubt that everyone is as lazy and stupid as you claim. The majority want to work but cannot find any. I also reject the idea that everyone can get rich with hard work.

An economic system should benefit almost everyone who is willing to work. Ours does to a far better degree than in many other countries, but the vast and growing gap between wealthy and poor indicates that the majority of the people are not benefiting from the majority of the wealth in our countries. Why should this be?

[O_G]

Ours did to a far better degree than in other developed countries...

My edit, particularly given the first two graphics I posted.

The wheels fell off some time ago. It's just that people have been suckered into not seeing it. The schemers are clever, I'll give them that. Even now, the public is still utterly mystified by such unicorns as "small businesses" and what those unicorns are used to do to them and their kids on a daily, and nightly, basis. The level of naivete and delusion is mind-boggling.

We run the risk, by laying out the pros and cons of a particular argument, of inducing people to join in on the debate, and in this regard it is possible to lose control of a process that only we fully understand.

[Chilledman]

As someone who is currently top 25% and plans to reach top 5-10%, I disagree with your general sentiment as well as reject your strawman. The OP did not say the top X% are evil; rather, the implication is that the system is not functioning correctly. If the vast majority of people are struggling, I would agree with that sentiment.

I also reject your convenient way of closing your mind to the problem: I highly doubt that everyone is as lazy and stupid as you claim. The majority want to work but cannot find any. I also reject the idea that everyone can get rich with hard work.

An economic system should benefit almost everyone who is willing to work. Ours does to a far better degree than in many other countries, but the vast and growing gap between wealthy and poor indicates that the majority of the people are not benefiting from the majority of the wealth in our countries. Why should this be?

Do I agree the system is a bit misfunctioning , sure , but is it broken , NO .
Why do you reject the idea that everyone can get rich with hard work ? ( excluding those that are not mental or physicaly capable of it )

Close my mind LOL I see more different people on a day to day basis then the next 10 posters here to base my claims on ..... I see very few people with any sort of movitation to move up at all , or at least to work that little bit more to make there lives better. Most view there jobs as a space to occupy there lifes with till the weekend when they can spend it doing something pointless as argueing with people on the interent ....

And its the simple things of doing ....

Putting a full 8hrs of work in.
Eating Correctly
Exercising

Just imagine if the intept 50% acutally did those to the fullest extent ... imagine what we used to get done .... now all I see is fat people everywhere sitting down , surfing the interent .

You should of seen the obease mutants at the hockey game I went to last night , I thought I was going to be eaten alive by some of them

[Egilbe]

Most view there jobs as a space to occupy there lifes with till the weekend when they can spend it doing something pointless as argueing with people on the interent ....

And its the simple things of doing ....

Putting a full 8hrs of work in.
Eating Correctly
Exercising

Just imagine if the intept 50% acutally did those to the fullest extent ... imagine what we used to get done .... now all I see is fat people everywhere sitting down , surfing the interent .

You should of seen the obease mutants at the hockey game I went to last night , I thought I was going to be eaten alive by some of them

I've seen your posts on what you eat on a typical day.

[Jader Pack]

My edit, particularly given the first two graphics I posted.

The wheels fell off some time ago.

I disagree. A large percentage of the world's population lives without many of the luxuries that even poor people here consider a necessity. Running water (or even clean water), electricity, heat when it's cold, a room for each person, TV, Internet, phone, three meals a day... all while the elite in many of those countries live like kings.

We live in a very lucky part of the world. Still, there's nothing wrong with wanting to improve on that.

I can't see any reason why wealth should be as concentrated as it is here. I'm ok with the market rewarding highly-desired people lavishly, but the degree it's reached these days is ridiculous. What's the point in living in a rich society if you can't participate in the wealth?

[Jader Pack]

Do I agree the system is a bit misfunctioning , sure , but is it broken , NO .
Why do you reject the idea that everyone can get rich with hard work ? ( excluding those that are not mental or physicaly capable of it )

Close my mind LOL I see more different people on a day to day basis then the next 10 posters here to base my claims on ..... I see very few people with any sort of movitation to move up at all , or at least to work that little bit more to make there lives better. And its the simple things of ....

Putting a full 8hrs of work in.
Eating Correctly
Exercising

Just imagine if the intept 50% acutally did those to the fullest extent ... imagine what we used to get done .... now all I see is fat people everywhere sitting down , surfing the interent .

Never said it was broken. Like I say, things here are better than most places in the world. That's no reason not to improve it; since when has "good enough," been good enough?

I get the feeling you're seeing what you want to see or believe you'll see. I don't get that impression from people at all. The lazy, scam-the-system, never work at all types exist, but I feel they're a tiny minority. Most people want to participate in society, find a job they can do and do it well. Those people certainly aren't the cream of the crop who lead, take risks, and push society upwards (and who , when successful, deserve to be rich), but they still deserve a fair proportion of the wealth that the society they participate in generates. These days, I don't think they're getting that.

[Chilledman]

Never said it was broken. Like I say, things here are better than most places in the world. That's no reason not to improve it; since when has "good enough," been good enough?

I get the feeling you're seeing what you want to see or believe you'll see. I don't get that impression from people at all. The lazy, scam-the-system, never work at all types exist, but I feel they're a tiny minority. Most people want to participate in society, find a job they can do and do it well. Those people certainly aren't the cream of the crop who lead, take risks, and push society upwards (and who , when successful, deserve to be rich), but they still deserve a fair proportion of the wealth that the society they participate in generates. These days, I don't think they're getting that.

I see the complete opposite of that with the simple facts of obesity on the rise and all these other health issues from complacencey of thats "good enough" I see why to many people that dont want work and just want to spend there days goofing off , espically more from people my age and younger. I dont see the drive to work hard any more and be rewarded for it .

I think we agree more then we disagree , that yes the top of the field the top .1% has way to much , but again thats more being born into it then acutally earn it anymore.

- Anyhow off for the day got customers to see

- My views could be skewed a bit since the HVAC Field is a bit harder then most and right now most customers I speak to / Mech HVAC Contractors cant find skilled people let alone someone to work for them anymore . Starting Pay with just your EPA cert for a 18yr old is $12-15hr depending on knowledge and such.

[Manu44]

Google "top 10% income". Here are the first three links that all use 2009 or 2010 IRS data.

http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

This is the key thing that OWS and other idiots that chant "pay your fare share" like to ignore. The top 10% of earners pay 70% of the federal taxes.

Rich people may pay 15% tax rate bit they have a WAY larger base as well as being taxed in more ways than average people.

Every time these things are brought up in these stupid threads, these posts are "overlooked", when in reality the above data (from the IRS) is very relevant.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

[Egilbe]

This is the key thing that OWS and other idiots that chant "pay your fare share" like to ignore. The top 10% of earners pay 70% of the federal taxes.

Rich people may pay 15% tax rate bit they have a WAY larger base as well as being taxed in more ways than average people.

Every time these things are brought up in these stupid threads, these posts are "overlooked", when in reality the above data (from the IRS) is very relevant.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

They should pay the most taxes. They are gaining the most benefits from the system. Poor people don't pay taxes because they are poor. If the poor weren't poor, they could pay taxes, right?

As a percent of income and total taxed amount, the poor pay a fair bit in taxes.

[ATL_Av8r]

Why don't the bottom 50% pay their fair share?

[Egilbe]

Why don't the bottom 50% pay their fair share?

federal income tax is different than total taxes

[GeoffD]

Why don't the bottom 50% pay their fair share?

I don't get this....

You're married, have two kids, and make a combined $30K. Since the US has crap public transportation, you need two cars. You have to pay rent & utilities. You have to feed and clothe your kids. I don't get this "politics of greed" thing where you think someone in those circumstances should be paying federal income taxes. We have earned income tax credits and child tax credits to offset payroll taxes so those people don't have to live in their car.

There are millions of households exactly like this.

[ATL_Av8r]

I don't get this...

You're married, have two kids, and make a combined $30K.

I don't get that either. That's just ridiculous

[2Cor]

I don't get that either. That's just ridiculous

Can you define "fair share"?

[GeoffD]

This is the key thing that OWS and other idiots that chant "pay your fare share" like to ignore. The top 10% of earners pay 70% of the federal taxes.

Rich people may pay 15% tax rate bit they have a WAY larger base as well as being taxed in more ways than average people.

Every time these things are brought up in these stupid threads, these posts are "overlooked", when in reality the above data (from the IRS) is very relevant.

I'm top-5%. My Federal income tax ends up being about 22% of my gross. When you add in FICA (6.2% of the first $106K) and Medicare (1.45%), I'm at 27.22%. Personally, I object to the truly rich who pay less than 15%.

If I were setting tax policy, I'd index capital gains to the inflation rate and tax it as ordinary income. I'd bring back income averaging to handle people with 1-time events from getting slaughtered. If you did that, you could drop the top bracket down to about 30%. That would put the truly rich at the same tax rate I pay.

[TIGninja]

[Jader Pack]

Exactly ! Thats the real disturbing part .... its for two people making less then $8hr ....

Most $8 an hour jobs leave you no opportunity to raise kids. You'd spend your whole salary on day care or... what other option than stay home?

And yes, I think anyone who puts in their 40 hours a week should be able to afford to raise a family.

[GeoffD]

Most $8 an hour jobs leave you no opportunity to raise kids. You'd spend your whole salary on day care or... what other option than stay home?

And yes, I think anyone who puts in their 40 hours a week should be able to afford to raise a family.

I know lots of people who do it. You can't both work "regular hours". Somebody has to work evenings and/or weekends. You're doing service jobs.... waitress/bartender/cook/dishwasher, store clerk, low end health care jobs like nursing home night/weekend staff.

[Diamond Dave]

Most $8 an hour jobs leave you no opportunity to raise kids. You'd spend your whole salary on day care or... what other option than stay home?

And yes, I think anyone who puts in their 40 hours a week should be able to afford to raise a family.

That's one point of view. The other point of view is that you make life decisions by your financial situation. I personally don't think minimum wage (no skill required, warm body staffing) is what you can "raise a family on. Supporting a wife + kid(s) + dog + iPhone plans, etc. are for people that put the time in to get an education, receive trades training, or took the time to be skilled in their trade.

FYI, in the educated world, few people really work a 40hr work week. That's for the unskilled workers to do. Those of us that got an education or skills training and have risen to the top of our fields work between 50 and 60 hours frequently. So, to your point that you feel someone making $8/hr at 40hrs per week, no, there is no reason in hell that person should be able to afford having kids and a family. Who in their right mind would marry and have kids with a person that can only find an $8/hr job

Everyone (who participates) should be able to share equitably in the wealth it generates.

Life isn't about equity and "it" didn't create crap. A motivated, skilled, and capable person put their own well being on the line to make something happen. They put up ALL of the risk and effort to bring a product to market or to establish a viable business (whether they hire employees or not).

There is equal OPPORTUNITY in this country; that is defined as an opportunity to succeed based on your skill or luck as well as the opportunity to fail based on your skill or luck. There is no guarantee that you reap rewards just because you're a worker. The great rewards in this country are for people that make business happen. Worker bees do their job and they get paid. If worker bees don't feel they are being paid enough, they either need to be better at their job, go find a new job, or start their own business.

Nothing funny about it. You have a kid with your unemployable boyfriend at 17 and then complain that life is hard? You're an idiot.

BINGO! Oh, wait, you said something that people don't like to hear.

Believe me, I don't like condoms or pulling out, but there's one thing that I don't like more than either of those; having kids when I'm not ready. Kind of like, one of the major reasons I can't handle being a criminal; it's not getting caught that I have a problem with. It's the prison rape. Prison rape is a deal breaker for me, so I can't do the crime.

pretty ridiculous. and you wonder why the average family can't get ahead...

Why should they be "getting ahead"? What's wrong with just being. Getting ahead is for people that don't have time to think about 40hr work weeks. Getting ahead is for people that learn a skill and seek to improve at that skill. Getting ahead is for people that have learned how to produce high quality work or work product.

is there still reasonable opportunity for a person of "low income" to get an education, good job, or better themselves?

To me, it seems like a combination of addiction to failure and learned behavior. If you come from a household where people don't value education; you won't value education. If you come from a household where you complain that "the rich fat cats owe me", then you'll feel like you are owed as well.

Any person in the country can get straight A's in middle school and high school; but it takes work. The government hasn't yet figured out how to stop this type of discrimination yet. Any person in the country that gets excellent grades has a strong chance of getting grants or scholarships for a formal education (be that college or trades). MOST every person in the country could join one of our armed forces branches and receive a free college education AND receive best of breed skills training.

But this isn't happening because working hard is too tough. Army work is too tough. Studying hard and learning is too tough.

It's a simple recipe to avoid being ignorant and poor in this country. Graduate from high school seems to be the bar that most people can't clear.

[seymore15074]

It's a simple recipe to avoid being ignorant and poor in this country. Graduate from high school seems to be the bar that most people can't clear.

Did you just claim that most people don't graduate high school?

It's official, this is the new make up **** and bitch about it thread.

[mad8vskillz]

It's official, this is the new make up **** and bitch about it thread.

My cat doesn't like my dog!

/i have no pets