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    Thread: sports car cummins swap?

    1. Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      12-26-2011 08:21 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by CBi View Post
      QFT, which was the point I was trying to get across when I posted the Audi TDi vid.

      But, OH MY GOD ITS A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR RACE CAR how can it possibly be relevant???!!?

      It's relevant because the motor spins to a whopping 5000 RPM, that's why, and it's torque-tarded enough to pull some serious gear and go fast and compete with high-revving SI engines.

      A 4-banger TDi engine with boost and gearing in a lightweight chassis could do just the same, on a smaller scale.
      It is also a multi million dollar high performance racing engine with turbochargers and a displacement at the maximum for its class (which happens to be much larger than the vast majority of production cars sold in the world) at the time of 5.5 liters.

      It should be a no-brainer that it makes loads of torque and can still be geared to accelerate very fast and also top out well north of 200.I would also note this engine would be far too large to be used today in ALMS.

      The simple fact that only a 5 speed trans is used speaks volumes to the amount of torque available. As stated though, it isn't even relevant to he discussion at hand. Why you ask?

      Because racecar.
      Last edited by patrikman; 12-26-2011 at 08:23 PM.
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    2. Member CBi's Avatar
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      12-26-2011 08:34 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      As stated though, it isn't even relevant to he discussion at hand. Why you ask?

      Because racecar.
      It's 100% relevant to this post:

      Quote Originally Posted by PassSedanGLX View Post
      I see the torquetards are out in full force today.

      It's true that you can't make horsepower without torque, but you also can't turn torque into MPH without RPM.

      Yeah, you can gear a small diesel to do 0-60 in 4 seconds, but it'll already be well on its way to a top speed of 62.
      So I provided video example of a "small" diesel (ie not the truck motors others are posting) with a lot of torque and not a lot of horsepower moving very fast on a racetrack.

      I'm done with this thread.

    3. Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      12-26-2011 08:49 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by CBi

      So I provided video example of a "small" diesel (ie not the truck motors others are posting) with a lot of torque and not a lot of horsepower moving very fast on a racetrack.

      I'm done with this thread.
      How is 5.5 liters with twin turbos "small"? It is ridiculous to even compare. When unrestricted these engines make well over 1000hp and unknown torque. All of this in a car when race ready with a driver and fluids weighs less than an empty Miata.

      Totally relevant, I am glad you are done with this thread.
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      12-26-2011 09:32 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by CBi View Post
      Sigh............

      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Madness
      Back when making your car faster and better handling was the big thing.
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      12-26-2011 10:51 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      If you can take an engine and gear it to do 0-60 in 4 seconds, you can have a set of gears to make it hit high top speeds aswell, converting its high torque, low RPM into high RPM, low torque.
      If it produces the power to have sufficient mechanical advantage for sustaining that momentum and still be pleasant to drive, sure. In practice, nobody builds cars with crazy short low gears and super-tall cruising gears because they're not terribly pleasant to drive. You get a cruising gear with no passing power and a an obnoxious NVH nightmare around town.

      Quote Originally Posted by CBi View Post
      QFT, which was the point I was trying to get across when I posted the Audi TDi vid.

      But, OH MY GOD ITS A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR RACE CAR how can it possibly be relevant???!!?

      It's relevant because the motor spins to a whopping 5000 RPM, that's why, and it's torque-tarded enough to pull some serious gear and go fast and compete with high-revving SI engines.

      A 4-banger TDi engine with boost and gearing in a lightweight chassis could do just the same, on a smaller scale.
      Wow, dude.
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    6. Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      12-26-2011 10:56 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by PassSedanGLX View Post

      Wow, dude.
      Torquetards. It has a nice ring to it.

      Reminds me of something a great man (the name escapes me right now) once said.

      "Horsepower wins races, torque sells cars to retards."
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      12-27-2011 08:16 AM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Reminds me of something a great man (the name escapes me right now) once said.

      "Horsepower wins races, torque sells cars to retards."


      Great point except you have it exactly BACKWARDS. The phrase goes:

      "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."
      - Enzo Ferarri
      - Carroll Shelby

      Yes, the quote is attributed to both these great men. Considering their rivalry, that's pretty ironic. Regardless, the truth is there for us to appreciate. Look it up.
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      12-27-2011 09:38 AM #78
      fully dressed (hoses, pumps, etc), doesn't the 6.7 cummins weigh close to 1200 lbs?
      Compared to say, an LS1 which comes in just under 500?

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      12-27-2011 09:56 AM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by Scott@USRT View Post
      Great point except you have it exactly BACKWARDS. The phrase goes:

      "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."
      - Enzo Ferarri
      - Carroll Shelby

      Yes, the quote is attributed to both these great men. Considering their rivalry, that's pretty ironic. Regardless, the truth is there for us to appreciate. Look it up.
      The gentleman he's referring to intentionally warped the quote for the purposes of being ironic, insulting and humorous.

      The truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter how you make power as long as the engine, driveline and chassis are designed to work in harmony. All else being equal (besides gearing, of course), there's no magic formula where a car with 150hp and 200lb-ft of torque will beat a car with 200hp and 150lb-ft of torque. It just doesn't work that way.
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      12-27-2011 10:48 AM #80
      HP makes speed, torque is what you feel. Or, hp is how much work is done, torque is how the work is done. Arguing about it is petty and pointless.

      Take your car (non-turbo) up to it's torque peak and punch it. Feel that? Now take it to it's power peak and punch it. Notice the thrust is less? The car will accelerate and change speeds at a rate that exactly matches the torque curve. If the torque wasn't important, then why would that be? You also shift at the power peak in order to maximize torque in the next gear, because you want it to maximize the change in speed in the next gear.

      Oh, and the Audi is in fact a pure sports car: lightweight, 2 seat open car designed around road race use.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

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      12-27-2011 11:14 AM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      HP makes speed, torque is what you feel. Or, hp is how much work is done, torque is how the work is done. Arguing about it is petty and pointless.

      Take your car (non-turbo) up to it's torque peak and punch it. Feel that? Now take it to it's power peak and punch it. Notice the thrust is less? The car will accelerate and change speeds at a rate that exactly matches the torque curve. If the torque wasn't important, then why would that be? You also shift at the power peak in order to maximize torque in the next gear, because you want it to maximize the change in speed in the next gear.
      Nobody is arguing that torque is meaningless or intangible, but it's simply not an apples-to-apples statistic. With all other things being truly equal (except gearing), two properly-driven cars with the same horsepower will be equally fast around a racetrack regardless of torque numbers. The reverse is not true.

      Looking at horsepower and torque simultaneously will tell you something about how an engine feels to drive and where it makes its power.

      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      Oh, and the Audi is in fact a pure sports car: lightweight, 2 seat open car designed around road race use.
      Nobody is arguing that. The Audi came up tangentially on a completely unrelated point to which it was not germane.
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      12-27-2011 11:14 AM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by PassSedanGLX View Post
      The gentleman he's referring to intentionally warped the quote for the purposes of being ironic, insulting and humorous.
      -all very good things.

      All else being equal (besides gearing, of course), there's no magic formula where a car with 150hp and 200lb-ft of torque will beat a car with 200hp and 150lb-ft of torque. It just doesn't work that way.
      TRUTH


      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      HP makes speed, torque is what you feel. Or, hp is how much work is done, torque is how the work is done. Arguing about it is petty and pointless.
      But, discussing the technical aspect is worthwhile. As for the comparison, I rather like "Holzwarth's Law": Horsepower sets how fast you hit the wall. Torque sets the size of the hole.

      Oh, and the Audi is in fact a pure sports car: lightweight, 2 seat open car designed around road race use.
      Agreed, but it isn't a proper example of a diesel engine swap or a street machine. Thus, I'd put the R10 in the category of "race car" rather than conventional "sports car". But, this is no objective measure. -strictly my personal stance.
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      12-27-2011 11:17 AM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by PassSedanGLX View Post
      With all other things being truly equal (except gearing), two properly-driven cars with the same horsepower will be equally fast around a racetrack regardless of torque numbers. The reverse is not true.
      Well... it depends. On a tight and twisty course or one with lots of traffic, the vehicle with more area under the torque curve will have an advantage.
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      12-27-2011 11:28 AM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by Scott@USRT View Post
      Well... it depends. On a tight and twisty course or one with lots of traffic, the vehicle with more area under the torque curve will have an advantage.
      Right, but that's assumed to be equal. If you're actually measuring, even something with relatively little torque can still have a substantial area under the curve if it is capable of revving high. For all the jokes people like to make, an S2000 actually has a lot of area under the torque curve because it's very linear and very broad.

      And some diesels actually have very small areas under the curve because their torque peaks very early and then falls off abruptly.
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      12-27-2011 12:13 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Chaos View Post
      you would prob need to use something smaller like a 4bt.
      My goodness. Youve obviously never seen a 4BT. As pointed out, theyre heavy when dressed with turbo and accessories and will make you happy that NVH engineers exist to keep motors like that out of regularly used passenger vehicles. Youre also forgetting the main drawback of these motors, the HEIGHT. Theyre extremely tall and will require you to do some creative, and probably blind spot creating, hood modifications.

      I love diesel threads. So much misguided crap.


      OP, go for a car based diesel. Theyre more compact and are designed to rev a little more to mimic gas motors. If I were to build a diesel sports car, 100% would be this:

      +
      VW TDI
      +
      Acme Adapters Toyota transmission kit

      THAT would be a ton of fun. Light enough for a chipped TDI and you would have a ton of fun. Not too mention it would handle insanely well.

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      12-27-2011 01:21 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      The Monte Carlo wasn't a sportscar. Neither was any of the other Buicks, Chevys, Oldsmobiles, or Cadillacs that used the Olds 350D. The engine is actually quite sought after in Olds circles, because of its durability when converted to gas. It is actually the most durable Oldsmobile street engine ever installed in a car.
      Are you referring to the LF9 V8 diesel engine platform?

      I recall owning a 1981 Chevy longbox 2WD diesel truck. It had the LF9 engine in it. Horrible motor. Somewhat unreliable and ALWAYS leaked oil. Fuel pump was always having issues, even after numerous rebuilds, and it had so-so power/torque. I remember my father and I rebuilt that motor many times. It was a pain in the ass to deal with. It did, however, get pretty good fuel mileage in the order of 18city/26highway. We encountered many of the problems mentioned below....


      From Wikipedia:
      LF9 Diesel

      The LF9 was a 350 cu in (5,737 cc) diesel V8 produced from 1978-1985.

      Applications;

      350N 1978–1985 Chevrolet, Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Cadillac, and Checker Marathon cars
      Early 120 hp (89 kW) 220 ft·lbf (300 N·m) torque
      Later 105 hp (78 kW) and 205 ft·lbf (278 N·m) torque

      350N 1978–1980 GMC and Chevrolet light trucks "pickups"
      125 hp (93 kW) and 225 ft·lbf (305 N·m) torque

      Variations;

      1978–1980 Early block Identified by "D" cast into both sides of block
      Up to 125 bhp (93 kW)
      external EGR from 1978–1981 (single stud air cleaner)
      internal EGR from 1982–1985 (two stud air cleaner)
      Used a conventional flat tappet hydraulic camshaft/flat tappet hydraulic lifters which required 3,000 mi (4,800 km) oil change intervals.

      1981–1985 Improved block Identified by "DX" cast into both sides of block.
      Up to 105 bhp (78 kW)
      Internal EGR
      All 5.7 diesels from 1978–1985 used 1/2" diameter cylinder head bolts.
      Longer main bolts with fully tapped holes in block.
      Newly introduced roller lifters/rollerized camshaft extended oil change intervals to 5,000 mi (8,000 km).

      Diesel differences;

      The Oldsmobile diesel is believed by some to be a converted gasoline engine. While they share the same bore and stroke and some external bolt patterns (transmission and exhaust manifolds) they are quite different.

      GM began with a substantially different bottom end when compared with its gasoline cousin.

      Diesel blocks
      3" diameter injection pump mount is cast into the top of the lifter valley.This casting was part of the engine block.
      Camshaft nose modified to incorporate injection pump drive gear.
      A round plastic button in the 1981-1985 DX blocks was used with a stiff spring to prevent the camshaft from "walking" back and forth.
      Block castings are much thicker and heavier. It's possible to overbore the cylinders by 0.125in without sonic testing.
      Solid heavy cast main webs were used.
      Reputedly, GM used a higher nickel cast iron alloy for the block and heads.

      Diesel crankshafts
      Cast nodular iron used in all Olds diesel crankshafts.
      Main bearing journal diameter was increased to 3.0" which made that area the same as that of the Olds 455 crankshaft.
      Vibration damper modified to allow eccentric for crank-driven fuel lift pump

      Diesel pistons and rods
      Diesel rods are shorter at 5.886" long.
      Diesel connecting rods use a bronze bushing with a full floating piston pin.They did not use press fit piston pins like many gasoline engines do.Snap-rings are used to retain the piston pin within the piston.
      Diesel pistons have large valve reliefs with a flame slot and a steel insert to reinforce the top piston ring area.

      Fuel systems
      No OEM fuel/water separator was factory installed on any Olds Diesel.
      Crank eccentric driven fuel lift pump mounted in same location as gasoline fuel pump.
      Fuel line heater between lift pump and filter.
      Intake mounted 10 micrometer fuel filter.
      Stanadyne Roosamaster DB2 mechanical diesel injection pump.
      1978-79 Pencil Injectors held in by a mounting clamp.
      1980-85 Poppet injectors thread into the cylinder head like a spark plug.

      Heads
      The same 10-head bolt pattern as their smallblock gasoline cousins.
      The same exhaust manifold bolt pattern as their smallblock gasoline cousins.
      Precombustion chambers were used since this engine is a indirect-injected design.
      Valve springs contained a vibration dampener with rotators.

      Head variations
      Very early castings were stamped D3 and used 5/16" injector hold down retaining bolts and clamps.
      D3A castings were created a little later and used 3/8" injector hold down bolts and clamps.
      Both D3 and D3A heads accepted external EGR and pencil injectors.
      Some D3A heads accepted poppet injectors as well.
      D3B Later heads
      All had internal EGR
      Pencil or poppet injectors
      1 or 2 locating dowels

      The Oldsmobile diesel gained a reputation for unreliability and anemic performance that badly damaged the North American passenger diesel market for the next 20 years.[17][18]
      [edit] Oldsmobile diesel problems
      [edit] Head bolts

      GM used "torque to yield", commonly known as "stretch" or "angle torque", head bolts. This allowed the bolt pattern to remain the same as the gas powered counterpart with an increase in clamping load when compared to standard head bolts. A total of 10 bolts per head were used, four per cylinder with the center three pairs shared. This permitted the use of the same tooling and reduced setup costs. This design did not provide adequate clamping force under the severe conditions to which these engines were subjected. Overheating or excessive cylinder pressure could breach the seal of the head gasket and in severe cases break the bolts.

      Improved head gaskets from Fel-Pro and head stud kits from ARP[19] are now available to make the engine more reliable in this area.
      [edit] Pump timing

      The Stanadyne injection pump was driven with the use of a short stubby shaft with a built in helical gear which meshed with a gear on the front section of the camshaft. With high mileage,the timing chains tended to stretch a little (like any other timing chain) and the injection pump timing could become less than perfect. The pump timing can be adjusted dynamically with the use of a Snap-on MT480 analog diesel timing meter or with one of the more modern meters used today.
      [edit] Water in fuel

      Arguably a major portion of the LF9 engine's problem could have been simply avoided by using a water separating fuel filter. The lack of water separators was a fuel system deficiency across GMs' light duty diesel lineup into the late 1980's.

      Water will rust the steel internals of the fuel system. Rust will damage the precision parts in diesel fuel injection pumps and high pressure diesel injectors causing erratic operation. Injecting fuel too much prior to TDC on the compression stroke will cause pressure conditions similar to pre-ignition / detonation in gasoline engines. Water in varying amounts will also be injected with the fuel charge. Any rust in the steel fuel lines, fuel filter, pump etc can damage replacement parts and continue to cause injection cycles out of time.
      [edit] Consumer created fuel problems

      Water in gasoline fuel systems can be addressed by adding anhydrous alcohol [drygas] to the fuel. This technique does not work with diesel fuel. Some consumers used drygas in their diesels to combat the water, but the Alcohol in drygas accelerated the wear of the governor flex rings inside the early Stanadyne DB injection pumps. These pumps included an ignition advance mechanism based on pump housing fuel pressure. The housing pressure was affected by fuel return flow. Pieces of a damaged governor flex ring lodged in the fuel return check ball assembly. The sometimes intermittently blocked return line combined with a damaged governor caused erratic ignition timing. The flex ring governor was replaced, by Stanadyne in 1985, with a much improved Elastomer Insert Drive Governor Assembly commonly referred to as an EID. The EID is a service replacement part that eliminates the disintegrating flex ring.[20]

      The above mix of conditions originating with water in the fuel contributed to creating extreme cylinder pressures far exceeding those foreseen by the LF9 engine designers. These pressures would damage the head gasket and sometimes break head bolts.

      A head gasket leak effectively quenched ignition in the affected cylinder. This allowed unburnt fuel and coolant to leak into the crankcase, and would thin the lubricating oil. It also combined with combustion byproducts to make mild acids that attacked the copper/babbitt bearings and aluminum pistons. A head gasket failure can be particularly damaging in a diesel. A diesel engine has effectively no piston to head clearance at TDC on the compression stroke. The introduction of coolant into the cylinders can cause hydrolock. Hydrolock typically results in bent/broken crankshafts, pulled threads on main bolts, and bent connecting rods, effectively destroying an engine.

      Because the various failures these engines encountered were causally interrelated, and dealership technicians were unfamiliar at best with passenger car diesel engines, recurrent failures were possible because only the most obvious symptoms of trouble were addressed. The "one use only" head bolts were commonly re-used and symptoms in other interrelated systems ignored. Thus, cars could suffer multiple head gasket/head bolt failures from re-use of head bolts or a damaged injection system.

      The Oldsmobile Diesel V6 engines, although sharing much of the same production history, were produced on different tooling, where it was feasible to upgrade the head bolt pattern to what is arguably a superior design capable of withstanding more consumer abuse. However, the fuel system suffered from the same deficiencies.
      The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of the sheep.

    17. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      12-27-2011 02:39 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by PassSedanGLX View Post
      Nobody is arguing that torque is meaningless or intangible, but it's simply not an apples-to-apples statistic. With all other things being truly equal (except gearing), two properly-driven cars with the same horsepower will be equally fast around a racetrack regardless of torque numbers. The reverse is not true.

      Looking at horsepower and torque simultaneously will tell you something about how an engine feels to drive and where it makes its power.
      True, but the fact is, peopel are arguing that it's irrelevant. A car with more torque will acellerate harder than one without. And they'll do it more flexibly, as in will do it in any gear. the HP makes speed, the torque is what makes it fun. Too much of this argument is devolved into "high torque is meaningless, as hp gets you around the track." Torque gets you out of the corners.


      Nobody is arguing that. The Audi came up tangentially on a completely unrelated point to which it was not germane.
      Actually patrickman did say it's not a sports car, and it in fact is a preu sports car. And it is a way of showing that a low rpm engine with high torque can get you around a racetrack as fast as something with a lot of hp and not much torque. No, it's not a tow truck engine, but it's not a high rpm screamer, either, and it shows the potential of the engine type. I understand what they were trying to point out by bringing it into the discussion about a diesel in a sports car.

      I've thought about a TDi swap into the MGB for just this reason: lots of torque in a lightweight car doesn't need rpms to be fun.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    18. Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      12-27-2011 03:18 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post

      Actually patrickman did say it's not a sports car, and it in fact is a preu sports car. And it is a way of showing that a low rpm engine with high torque can get you around a racetrack as fast as something with a lot of hp and not much torque. No, it's not a tow truck engine, but it's not a high rpm screamer, either, and it shows the potential of the engine type. I understand what they were trying to point out by bringing it into the discussion about a diesel in a sports car.

      Given that you are such a champion of definition, doesn't the term sports car refer to road going touring cars?


      Are you going to say the R15 is not sports car becaus of its closed cockpit design?

      A prototype race car is designed to have two seats because the rules dictate that, but I have seen dozens and dozens of LMP cockpits and I have NEVER EVER seen one with two seats in it.

      If an F1 car were to have two seats for some sort of exhibition, would that also be sportscar?
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    19. Member rabbit07's Avatar
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      12-27-2011 04:00 PM #89
      Pimp My Ride did a Duramax diesel swap into a 1965 Impala SS.

      http://www.hotrodhomepage.com/hrhp/2...-diesel-power/

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      12-27-2011 04:08 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post


      Are you going to say the R18 is not sports car because of its closed cockpit design?
      FTFY.

      the R15 and R15++ were the last generation of open-top audi prototype racers. the current R18 and R18H are their new closed-top prototype.
      welcome to the layer cake

    21. Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      12-27-2011 05:49 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by n0rdicalex. View Post
      FTFY.

      the R15 and R15++ were the last generation of open-top audi prototype racers. the current R18 and R18H are their new closed-top prototype.
      Oops, got a bit messed up there. Because they never ran the car in ALMS I kind of forget there was another open topped car after that and we are now on 18, which I will likely never see either.
      ...tunes from the car makin' everybody dizzy. bumpin' Flaming Lips, Johnny Cash and Biggie...

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    22. 01-18-2012 04:18 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by dodger21 View Post


      Clicked off 10s all day.

      Sent from my rooted Velocity Ally
      nice chally - wonder how much he had to chop the car for the swap. I have an nice 72 cuda. wish mine was limelight though *drool*

    23. Member jazzcat2001's Avatar
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      01-18-2012 05:16 AM #93



      200 mph in texas mile


      the car i believe is in the 8s now...i know they breezed through the 9s..Nitrous Express owners car.

      35 mpg..worlds fastest street driven diesel
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      01-19-2012 08:06 AM #94
      And for sale last I knew.

      Sent from my rooted Velocity Ally

    25. Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      01-19-2012 08:19 AM #95
      Pony car diesel swaps are pretty cool, but a drag car isn't a sports car.
      ...tunes from the car makin' everybody dizzy. bumpin' Flaming Lips, Johnny Cash and Biggie...

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    26. Member jazzcat2001's Avatar
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      01-20-2012 05:01 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Pony car diesel swaps are pretty cool, but a drag car isn't a sports car.
      street car that runs 8s in the quarter and can break 200 mph in a standing mile is still pretty cool...whatever you call it
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