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    Thread: The ONE & ONLY 2012 Politics/Election Thread

    1. Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      04-30-2012 10:35 PM #2401
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      I took your statement about McCain as a blanket statement about politicians in general. I don't consider him a Republican. Bill Clinton is more of a Republican than McCain.
      I used McCain because he has more houses than he can count on one hand.

      I could use Robert Chase who last I knew has the biggest home in the state of CT. I will not assume but I have strong feeling not every person who visits that house for work is a highly paid and trusted specialist.
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      04-30-2012 10:52 PM #2402
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      I used McCain because he has more houses than he can count on one hand.

      I could use Robert Chase who last I knew has the biggest home in the state of CT. I will not assume but I have strong feeling not every person who visits that house for work is a highly paid and trusted specialist.
      Alright, fair enough.

      I've never seen extremely low paid people myself. I actually asked one guy why flat out. The response that I got was "Jeff.. if you were in my position; would you feel safe knowing that the impoverished have access to your home? Besides; I believe everyone is entitled to a decent wage for their labor.."

      It made a lot of sense to me, and the attitude from others that I've dealt with was similar. God I wish I could say which politico im quoting; as you'd definitely shít yourself.

    3. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      04-30-2012 11:07 PM #2403
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      I'll just leave this here.

      Krugman makes my blood boil. What a hack

      Someone needs to ask Krugman why he won't debate Bob Murphy and allow the $70,000 of dollars in donations to feed low income individuals to be released.
      Came to watch a gynecologist argue monetary policy with an economist. Leaving satisfied.


    4. 05-01-2012 09:17 AM #2405
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Came to watch a gynecologist argue monetary policy with an economist. Leaving satisfied.
      Please don't call Krugman an economist. It's insulting to anyone with a basic
      sense of finance. Krugman is who you quote when you don't know what you're
      talking about.

      Remember: Keynesian economics has failed everywhere it's been tried....

      On a Micro scale, when hard times hit a man, he cuts back spending, focuses
      on any debt, and deals with the pain until his budget makes sense again. As a
      result, he recovers that much quicker.

      This has been and continues to be true on a Macro scale, and it's the reason
      we are still suffering through an extremely weak recovery (if you can call it
      that).
      Last edited by adoniram7; 05-01-2012 at 09:23 AM.

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      05-01-2012 09:25 AM #2406
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      Please don't call Krugman an economist. It's insulting to anyone with a basic sense of finance.
      I can only assume you make such claims while sitting next to your very own Nobel medal.

      The austerians have been proven fundamentally wrong and their policies are destroying the economies of the first world. But Ron Paul's economic theories make them look like geniuses.

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      05-01-2012 09:28 AM #2407
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      On a Micro scale, when hard times hit a man, he cuts back spending, focuses
      on any debt, and deals with the pain until his budget makes sense again. As a
      result, he recovers that much quicker.

      This has been and continues to be true on a Macro scale, and it's the reason
      we are still suffering through an extremely weak recovery (if you can call it
      that).
      Yes, household budgets operate just like national economies and finance! Why, just the other day I printed up several trillion dollars.

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      05-01-2012 09:37 AM #2408
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Came to watch a gynecologist argue monetary policy with an economist. Leaving satisfied.
      Came to watch a gynecoligist who predicted the financial collapse years before it happen debate a nobel prize winning economist who couldn't see it happening. Leaving satisfied.

    8. Member pentaxshooter's Avatar
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      05-01-2012 09:50 AM #2409
      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      I can only assume you make such claims while sitting next to your very own Nobel medal.
      Because we know those mean so much these days, with Obama winning a "peace" prize and all.
      The austerians have been proven fundamentally wrong and their policies are destroying the economies of the first world. But Ron Paul's economic theories make them look like geniuses.
      They would have had to been able to implement their policies for them to be proven wrong, no? Since Mises in the early 1900's, they have predicted every boom/bust with eerie accuracy. That's what Austrian Business Cycle Theory allows...

      Also, destroying what? Please, find out where you misplaced your meds and take them.
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      05-01-2012 09:55 AM #2410
      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      I can only assume you make such claims while sitting next to your very own Nobel medal.
      Point? Obama was awarded the Nobel Prize for absolutely no reason. Unless you consider his minimal amount of time in the Senate; where he voted "present" more times than than he casted actual votes Nobel prize worthy? Perhaps it was his campaign promises?

      Either way my point is that Obama receiving the award proved how worthless it really is...

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      05-01-2012 10:02 AM #2411
      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      Yes, household budgets operate just like national economies and finance! Why, just the other day I printed up several trillion dollars.
      well, if you did that and had to pay interest on that printed money (like the government does), it is similar to taking out another credit card that must be paid back w/ interest. And how is running up additional unsustainable debt going to get you out of your debt problem?

      What happens if all the interest rates on your credit cards double? How easy will it be to handle the increased interest payments and still be able to afford food, shelter, gas, etc.? Will you be forced to cut back your spending and work harder/pick up a second job, or will you just look for another creditor to issue you a credit card so you can keep spending?

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      05-01-2012 10:03 AM #2412
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Also, destroying what? Please, find out where you misplaced your meds and take them.
      Please re-read. Austerian != Austrian.

      1) No one takes the Austrian school seriously, for good reason. Admittedly, this allows them to proclaim that their theories have never been implemented, as you have just done. On the other hand, it's prevented their crazy ideas from destroying the world economy.

      2) No one should take the austerians seriously, but most of western Europe seems to have. Good luck with that, enjoy the double dip recessions!

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      05-01-2012 10:13 AM #2413
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      well, if you did that and had to pay interest on that printed money (like the government does), it is similar to taking out another credit card that must be paid back w/ interest. And how is running up additional unsustainable debt going to get you out of your debt problem?

      What happens if all the interest rates on your credit cards double? How easy will it be to handle the increased interest payments and still be able to afford food, shelter, gas, etc.? Will you be forced to cut back your spending and work harder/pick up a second job, or will you just look for another creditor to issue you a credit card so you can keep spending?
      This is why it's plainly insane to compare household budgets to national economies. It requires absurdist propositions that simply don't reflect reality. But let's give it a shot!!!

      The correct analogy for the US budget, in this case, would be a household where I can get unlimited loans at negative real interest rates. Not doubled interest rates, NEGATIVE. Therefore I would (and should (and did -- 1.9% car loan!)) take out such loans even when I have cash.

      The question, therefore, has nothing to do with borrowing. It has to do with productive spending. In a general sense, we should be spending money on anything with a good economic multiplier. For an individual, this might be a college education (or not -- I'm looking at you, art historians). For the government, this is something like food stamps.

      But the comparison is still stupid.

    13. Member pentaxshooter's Avatar
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      05-01-2012 10:17 AM #2414
      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      I can only assume you make such claims while sitting next to your very own Nobel medal.

      The austerians have been proven fundamentally wrong and their policies are destroying the economies of the first world. But Ron Paul's economic theories make them look like geniuses.
      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      Please re-read. Austerian != Austrian.
      I saw.

      1) No one takes the Austrian school seriously, for good reason. Admittedly, this allows them to proclaim that their theories have never been implemented, as you have just done. On the other hand, it's prevented their crazy ideas from destroying the world economy.
      When you don't have a substantive objection call the other side "crazy". Works every time.

      2) No one should take the austerians seriously, but most of western Europe seems to have. Good luck with that, enjoy the double dip recessions!
      Enjoy your unsustainable debt and currency crisis
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    14. 05-01-2012 10:31 AM #2415
      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      Yes, household budgets operate just like national economies and finance! Why, just the other day I printed up several trillion dollars.
      Actually, it does, because money works like that. Gravity doesn't just change
      on a whim, at least in this part of the universe. Neither does money. This is
      Econ 101. You can play all of the games you want by printing money, and it
      doesn't change a thing.

      No country has ever gotten out of a recession through spending.

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      05-01-2012 10:43 AM #2416
      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      This is why it's plainly insane to compare household budgets to national economies. It requires absurdist propositions that simply don't reflect reality. But let's give it a shot!!!

      The correct analogy for the US budget, in this case, would be a household where I can get unlimited loans at negative real interest rates. Not doubled interest rates, NEGATIVE. Therefore I would (and should (and did -- 1.9% car loan!)) take out such loans even when I have cash.
      The US government doesn't have cash in savings. It actually has negative savings. Negative $16 trillion. What happens when the next time you go to get a car loan, the rate is now 6%. How will that impact your ability to manage your finances. Keep in mind...no savings account. What happens when lenders start to realize you are over leveraged and cut off the credit?

      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      The question, therefore, has nothing to do with borrowing. It has to do with productive spending. In a general sense, we should be spending money on anything with a good economic multiplier. For an individual, this might be a college education (or not -- I'm looking at you, art historians). For the government, this is something like food stamps.

      But the comparison is still stupid.
      The comparison is valid. Your examples however lack validity. Government spending on food stamps does nothing to increase production or economic growth. It actually retards growth by allocating spending away from the means of production, savings, & investment and over the long term de-incentivises people to work.

      It has everything to do with borrowing. Debt, the interest on debt, & deficits play a huge role whether on the personal consumer level, business corporation level, or government level. Although, as a fan of Krugman and his spot on economic analysis over the last 10 years (sarcasm), I understand why your focus is on spending with little regard to where the money comes from.

    16. 05-01-2012 11:10 AM #2417
      Mixmaster needs to watch the video posted on page 65, post #2255.

    17. Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      05-01-2012 01:20 PM #2418
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      The US government doesn't have cash in savings. It actually has negative savings. Negative $16 trillion. What happens when the next time you go to get a car loan, the rate is now 6%. How will that impact your ability to manage your finances. Keep in mind...no savings account. What happens when lenders start to realize you are over leveraged and cut off the credit?
      We have interest from loans and I can't remember but the US does have some type of bond/investment reserve I recall from government classes in school.

      Regardless we can print money (at risk to our own currency) and your household cannot.

      I fail to see why people keep falling back on treating the government like a personal checkbook. Not even business do this. GM doesn't rely on only cash reserves to fund new development, business take loans on the promise to pay that back with interest to lenders.
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      05-01-2012 01:55 PM #2419
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Enjoy your unsustainable debt and currency crisis
      Paulites are a part of this society/economy too, and if you all are actually interested making a positive change, learn how to work within the confines of REALITY to move toward something better. Sitting back on your completely unrealistic idealism and contributing nothing but "I told ya so" means you're about as worthless as people with no idea or thoughts at all. "Everyone is stupid but us" only gets you so far.

    19. 05-01-2012 02:19 PM #2420
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      We have interest from loans and I can't remember but the US does have some type of bond/investment reserve I recall from government classes in school.

      Regardless we can print money (at risk to our own currency) and your household cannot.

      I fail to see why people keep falling back on treating the government like a personal checkbook. Not even business do this. GM doesn't rely on only cash reserves to fund new development, business take loans on the promise to pay that back with interest to lenders.
      I agree completely about the personal checkbook comment - there has been, continues
      now more than ever, and will continue to be crony capitalism and long as the federal
      government exists. The way to mitigate this is to greatly reduce the size and scope
      of the federal government. Less money = less power = less corruption.

      FYI - many companies rely on cash reserves to fund new development. Those that do
      tend to have the strongest balance sheets and survive recessions better than those
      who rely on loans.

      BTW - Printing more money is a joke. Give X dollars with Y value, printing another X dollars does
      NOT GIVE 2Y in value. It is a trick the Feds play that give the illusion of liquidity.

      The purpose of the household example is to show THE BEST WAY that nations get
      themselves out of a recession, proven time and time again. You can talk about
      the additional flexibility the Feds have all you want, but that would be in the weeds
      and missing the more important point that Keynes does not work.

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      05-01-2012 02:30 PM #2421
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Paulites are a part of this society/economy too, and if you all are actually interested making a positive change, learn how to work within the confines of REALITY to move toward something better. Sitting back on your completely unrealistic idealism and contributing nothing but "I told ya so" means you're about as worthless as people with no idea or thoughts at all. "Everyone is stupid but us" only gets you so far.
      Oh, if you only sitting on my computer was all I did. I'm a lot more involved than you think
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      05-01-2012 02:35 PM #2422
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      We have interest from loans and I can't remember but the US does have some type of bond/investment reserve I recall from government classes in school.

      Regardless we can print money (at risk to our own currency) and your household cannot.

      I fail to see why people keep falling back on treating the government like a personal checkbook. Not even business do this. GM doesn't rely on only cash reserves to fund new development, business take loans on the promise to pay that back with interest to lenders.
      How does a business evaluate whether to take that loan and how does the lender evaluate whether to give that loan? They weigh the risk and benefits including the costs of the loan and the ability for the business to repay. What if the interest rates are being manipulated and are signalling that now is a good time to borrow because there is a large supply of money, but in reality, there is not a large supply and the true economic signals should be pointing to savings? How much malinvestment will come about because of a false sense of the cost of money?


      Government subsidies and Fed backed gaurantees artificially reduce risk, resulting in malinvestment. If you know you have a seemingly unlimited & gauranteed line of credit (personal checkbook example) you will make drasctically different decisions related to spending and investing then if it was your own personal savings you were working with and the element of risk was present. This same premise applies to business & government in the macroeconomic sense.

      With the government gaurantees of Fannie and Freddie & their gauranteed LOC from the Fed Reserve reducing the risk of mortgage lending, many lenders went nuts with speculation and overleveraging & relaxing lending standards. Why did these lenders do this? Risk...or lack of perceived risk. Who was responsible for removing or lessening the perception of risk?

      Risk impacts the decisions of every level, personal/business/government. The artificial reduction of risk leads to the malinvestment. This is the same whether personal/business/government.

      The ability to print money is no different than the ability to have a gauranteed line of credit (credit card w/ no limit). The Fed acts as a gauranteed credit card for the government, ready and willing to buy any debt necessary to finance the deficit. The fed here is equivalent to let's say Chase and the ability to buy the US debt at interest is equivalent to an individual borrowing money from their line of credit at Chase w/ interest. The ability to repay this borrowed money comes from working (in the personal checkbook case) or taxing (in the government's case).

      The ability to print the money will ultimately be our downfall. There is no restraint on how big the bond bubble & currency bubble will become. If the printing press was all we needed for prosperity, why is anyone working in this country? Why can't we all just have little printing presses and print our money up whenever we need more?

      We have enjoyed the status of having the reserve currency for many decades and to believe that we will hold this ability in the face of our current fiscal and monetary policies indefinitely is shortsighted. When we lose this honor bestowed on the US dollar, the full impact of our economic policies over the last 100 years will show themselves and the liquidation of debt and the malinvestment will be forced upon the marketplace with much more impact than if this problem was tackled now.

      Is your only argument for differentiating government level economic laws and personal economic laws the printing press?

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      05-01-2012 04:45 PM #2423
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      The purpose of the household example is to show THE BEST WAY that nations get
      themselves out of a recession, proven time and time again. You can talk about
      the additional flexibility the Feds have all you want, but that would be in the weeds
      and missing the more important point that Keynes does not work.
      I'd rather just focus on the people first and worry about the trade balance later.

      Get a nationalized education and healthcare system setup then cut away at other expenses as you see fit. Protect peole first so come better or worse at least we have our health and a mean to change our skills if the demand arrises.

      Oh, if you only sitting on my computer was all I did. I'm a lot more involved than you think
      Making a video on facebook doesn't count
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      05-01-2012 05:18 PM #2424
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      I'd rather just focus on the people first and worry about the trade balance later.

      Get a nationalized education and healthcare system setup then cut away at other expenses as you see fit. Protect peole first so come better or worse at least we have our health and a mean to change our skills if the demand arrises.
      So increase costs even more then attempt to reduce costs? You know how well the Federal Government is at reducing costs. What happens when the programs to educate people and provide healthcare has are bankrupt and have no money? The Federal Government has a great track record of bankrupting programs and running them into the red....The borrowed money party to facilitate these programs won't last, and will ultimately lead to worse economic conditions.

      I understand that these things sound good in theory and they may appear to work for a short time, but the long term effects are economically damaging.

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      05-01-2012 06:11 PM #2425
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      So increase costs even more then attempt to reduce costs? You know how well the Federal Government is at reducing costs. What happens when the programs to educate people and provide healthcare has are bankrupt and have no money? The Federal Government has a great track record of bankrupting programs and running them into the red....The borrowed money party to facilitate these programs won't last, and will ultimately lead to worse economic conditions.

      I understand that these things sound good in theory and they may appear to work for a short time, but the long term effects are economically damaging.
      Silly statement. People are not bankrupt and have money.

      Your basing your entire political stance that government = always corrupt/always wastful. And because of this we must eliminate government as much as possible.

      Did you even stop to consider what happens next? - I'll tell you. Corruption and waste just move down a level. States. Counties. Town. Households. There is not "government" that is corrupt there are people working within a government that bring corruption and waste.
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