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    Thread: The ONE & ONLY 2012 Politics/Election Thread

    1. Member
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      05-01-2012 10:43 AM #2416
      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      This is why it's plainly insane to compare household budgets to national economies. It requires absurdist propositions that simply don't reflect reality. But let's give it a shot!!!

      The correct analogy for the US budget, in this case, would be a household where I can get unlimited loans at negative real interest rates. Not doubled interest rates, NEGATIVE. Therefore I would (and should (and did -- 1.9% car loan!)) take out such loans even when I have cash.
      The US government doesn't have cash in savings. It actually has negative savings. Negative $16 trillion. What happens when the next time you go to get a car loan, the rate is now 6%. How will that impact your ability to manage your finances. Keep in mind...no savings account. What happens when lenders start to realize you are over leveraged and cut off the credit?

      Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash View Post
      The question, therefore, has nothing to do with borrowing. It has to do with productive spending. In a general sense, we should be spending money on anything with a good economic multiplier. For an individual, this might be a college education (or not -- I'm looking at you, art historians). For the government, this is something like food stamps.

      But the comparison is still stupid.
      The comparison is valid. Your examples however lack validity. Government spending on food stamps does nothing to increase production or economic growth. It actually retards growth by allocating spending away from the means of production, savings, & investment and over the long term de-incentivises people to work.

      It has everything to do with borrowing. Debt, the interest on debt, & deficits play a huge role whether on the personal consumer level, business corporation level, or government level. Although, as a fan of Krugman and his spot on economic analysis over the last 10 years (sarcasm), I understand why your focus is on spending with little regard to where the money comes from.

    2. 05-01-2012 11:10 AM #2417
      Mixmaster needs to watch the video posted on page 65, post #2255.

    3. Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      05-01-2012 01:20 PM #2418
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      The US government doesn't have cash in savings. It actually has negative savings. Negative $16 trillion. What happens when the next time you go to get a car loan, the rate is now 6%. How will that impact your ability to manage your finances. Keep in mind...no savings account. What happens when lenders start to realize you are over leveraged and cut off the credit?
      We have interest from loans and I can't remember but the US does have some type of bond/investment reserve I recall from government classes in school.

      Regardless we can print money (at risk to our own currency) and your household cannot.

      I fail to see why people keep falling back on treating the government like a personal checkbook. Not even business do this. GM doesn't rely on only cash reserves to fund new development, business take loans on the promise to pay that back with interest to lenders.

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      05-01-2012 01:55 PM #2419
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Enjoy your unsustainable debt and currency crisis
      Paulites are a part of this society/economy too, and if you all are actually interested making a positive change, learn how to work within the confines of REALITY to move toward something better. Sitting back on your completely unrealistic idealism and contributing nothing but "I told ya so" means you're about as worthless as people with no idea or thoughts at all. "Everyone is stupid but us" only gets you so far.

    5. 05-01-2012 02:19 PM #2420
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      We have interest from loans and I can't remember but the US does have some type of bond/investment reserve I recall from government classes in school.

      Regardless we can print money (at risk to our own currency) and your household cannot.

      I fail to see why people keep falling back on treating the government like a personal checkbook. Not even business do this. GM doesn't rely on only cash reserves to fund new development, business take loans on the promise to pay that back with interest to lenders.
      I agree completely about the personal checkbook comment - there has been, continues
      now more than ever, and will continue to be crony capitalism and long as the federal
      government exists. The way to mitigate this is to greatly reduce the size and scope
      of the federal government. Less money = less power = less corruption.

      FYI - many companies rely on cash reserves to fund new development. Those that do
      tend to have the strongest balance sheets and survive recessions better than those
      who rely on loans.

      BTW - Printing more money is a joke. Give X dollars with Y value, printing another X dollars does
      NOT GIVE 2Y in value. It is a trick the Feds play that give the illusion of liquidity.

      The purpose of the household example is to show THE BEST WAY that nations get
      themselves out of a recession, proven time and time again. You can talk about
      the additional flexibility the Feds have all you want, but that would be in the weeds
      and missing the more important point that Keynes does not work.

    6. Member pentaxshooter's Avatar
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      05-01-2012 02:30 PM #2421
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Paulites are a part of this society/economy too, and if you all are actually interested making a positive change, learn how to work within the confines of REALITY to move toward something better. Sitting back on your completely unrealistic idealism and contributing nothing but "I told ya so" means you're about as worthless as people with no idea or thoughts at all. "Everyone is stupid but us" only gets you so far.
      Oh, if you only sitting on my computer was all I did. I'm a lot more involved than you think
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      05-01-2012 02:35 PM #2422
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      We have interest from loans and I can't remember but the US does have some type of bond/investment reserve I recall from government classes in school.

      Regardless we can print money (at risk to our own currency) and your household cannot.

      I fail to see why people keep falling back on treating the government like a personal checkbook. Not even business do this. GM doesn't rely on only cash reserves to fund new development, business take loans on the promise to pay that back with interest to lenders.
      How does a business evaluate whether to take that loan and how does the lender evaluate whether to give that loan? They weigh the risk and benefits including the costs of the loan and the ability for the business to repay. What if the interest rates are being manipulated and are signalling that now is a good time to borrow because there is a large supply of money, but in reality, there is not a large supply and the true economic signals should be pointing to savings? How much malinvestment will come about because of a false sense of the cost of money?


      Government subsidies and Fed backed gaurantees artificially reduce risk, resulting in malinvestment. If you know you have a seemingly unlimited & gauranteed line of credit (personal checkbook example) you will make drasctically different decisions related to spending and investing then if it was your own personal savings you were working with and the element of risk was present. This same premise applies to business & government in the macroeconomic sense.

      With the government gaurantees of Fannie and Freddie & their gauranteed LOC from the Fed Reserve reducing the risk of mortgage lending, many lenders went nuts with speculation and overleveraging & relaxing lending standards. Why did these lenders do this? Risk...or lack of perceived risk. Who was responsible for removing or lessening the perception of risk?

      Risk impacts the decisions of every level, personal/business/government. The artificial reduction of risk leads to the malinvestment. This is the same whether personal/business/government.

      The ability to print money is no different than the ability to have a gauranteed line of credit (credit card w/ no limit). The Fed acts as a gauranteed credit card for the government, ready and willing to buy any debt necessary to finance the deficit. The fed here is equivalent to let's say Chase and the ability to buy the US debt at interest is equivalent to an individual borrowing money from their line of credit at Chase w/ interest. The ability to repay this borrowed money comes from working (in the personal checkbook case) or taxing (in the government's case).

      The ability to print the money will ultimately be our downfall. There is no restraint on how big the bond bubble & currency bubble will become. If the printing press was all we needed for prosperity, why is anyone working in this country? Why can't we all just have little printing presses and print our money up whenever we need more?

      We have enjoyed the status of having the reserve currency for many decades and to believe that we will hold this ability in the face of our current fiscal and monetary policies indefinitely is shortsighted. When we lose this honor bestowed on the US dollar, the full impact of our economic policies over the last 100 years will show themselves and the liquidation of debt and the malinvestment will be forced upon the marketplace with much more impact than if this problem was tackled now.

      Is your only argument for differentiating government level economic laws and personal economic laws the printing press?

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      05-01-2012 04:45 PM #2423
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      The purpose of the household example is to show THE BEST WAY that nations get
      themselves out of a recession, proven time and time again. You can talk about
      the additional flexibility the Feds have all you want, but that would be in the weeds
      and missing the more important point that Keynes does not work.
      I'd rather just focus on the people first and worry about the trade balance later.

      Get a nationalized education and healthcare system setup then cut away at other expenses as you see fit. Protect peole first so come better or worse at least we have our health and a mean to change our skills if the demand arrises.

      Oh, if you only sitting on my computer was all I did. I'm a lot more involved than you think
      Making a video on facebook doesn't count

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      05-01-2012 05:18 PM #2424
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      I'd rather just focus on the people first and worry about the trade balance later.

      Get a nationalized education and healthcare system setup then cut away at other expenses as you see fit. Protect peole first so come better or worse at least we have our health and a mean to change our skills if the demand arrises.
      So increase costs even more then attempt to reduce costs? You know how well the Federal Government is at reducing costs. What happens when the programs to educate people and provide healthcare has are bankrupt and have no money? The Federal Government has a great track record of bankrupting programs and running them into the red....The borrowed money party to facilitate these programs won't last, and will ultimately lead to worse economic conditions.

      I understand that these things sound good in theory and they may appear to work for a short time, but the long term effects are economically damaging.

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      05-01-2012 06:11 PM #2425
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      So increase costs even more then attempt to reduce costs? You know how well the Federal Government is at reducing costs. What happens when the programs to educate people and provide healthcare has are bankrupt and have no money? The Federal Government has a great track record of bankrupting programs and running them into the red....The borrowed money party to facilitate these programs won't last, and will ultimately lead to worse economic conditions.

      I understand that these things sound good in theory and they may appear to work for a short time, but the long term effects are economically damaging.
      Silly statement. People are not bankrupt and have money.

      Your basing your entire political stance that government = always corrupt/always wastful. And because of this we must eliminate government as much as possible.

      Did you even stop to consider what happens next? - I'll tell you. Corruption and waste just move down a level. States. Counties. Town. Households. There is not "government" that is corrupt there are people working within a government that bring corruption and waste.

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      05-01-2012 11:13 PM #2426
      http://news.antiwar.com/2012/05/01/o...-through-2024/

      Months of “not quite public” Obama Administration efforts to negotiate a still-secret pact to ensure that US troops will continue to occupy Afghanistan through at least 2024 came to an end today, with a “not quite public” visit to Afghanistan by President Obama to sign the pact.

      The first reports that President Obama had landed in Afghanistan for this A totally unannounced visit were quickly followed by denials from both the White House and the US Embassy in Afghanistan, which condemned the reports as untrue. Later they conceded they were true, and made no attempt to explain why they lied in the first place.

      The terms of the deal, which will govern US military operations in the country from the start of 2015 through the end of 2024, have not been made public, and as with President Bush and the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) in Iraq, there was no effort to consult on the long-term pact with Congress.

      Interestingly, with the ink now drying on the document and the US officially committed to the occupation of Afghanistan for another decade, officials are continuing to tout 2014 as the “end” of the war. This speaks to how the 2024 date, though openly discussed by the Karzai government in Afghanistan and privately acknowledged as part of the secret pact, has not been publicly presented to the American public. When they will officially spring it on us remains unclear.
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      05-02-2012 01:08 AM #2427
      I just had an absolutely bizzare experience on Facebook dealing with the wars and our troops. I'm still taking it all in at this point. Will update tomorrow with a recap. Whoa.

      All in a "discussion" that broke our under this screenshot a FB of mine made and posted.
      Last edited by pentaxshooter; 05-02-2012 at 01:11 AM.
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      05-02-2012 07:36 AM #2428
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      I just had an absolutely bizzare experience on Facebook dealing with the wars and our troops. I'm still taking it all in at this point. Will update tomorrow with a recap. Whoa.

      All in a "discussion" that broke our under this screenshot a FB of mine made and posted.
      Political beliefs notwithstanding;

      Why on earth would you say things like that to a soldier?

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      05-02-2012 07:44 AM #2429
      a) While he's not a politician, he's good at using political speak. "I follow order....I served my country and defended it."

      b) More importantly, what's the backstory to this. Were you being a straight up dick or is there more to the story?

      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      Why on earth would you say things like that to a soldier?
      It appears to be a former soldier....although once a marine...always a marine.
      There's nothing wrong with asking that question, as Tyler did, as long as it evolved from some sort of conversation.

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      05-02-2012 08:12 AM #2430
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      I like the way a cleared biased website attempts to paint it as if we will occupy and control Afghanistan for another decade.

      http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/02/politi...html?hpt=hp_t2

      Obama said he remains committed to pulling 23,000 troops out of the country by the end of summer and sticking to the 2014 deadline to turn security fully over to the Afghan government. He said that NATO will set a goal this month for Afghan forces to be in the lead for combat operations next year.
      "We will not build permanent bases in this country, nor will we be patrolling its cities and mountains," the president said during a speech at Bagram Air Base early Wednesday. "That will be the job of the Afghan people."

      Some U.S. forces will remain in a post-war Afghanistan as military advisers, but both U.S. and Afghan officials have yet to decide how many troops will continue supporting the Afghan military, and for how long.
      So we may leave observes and advisers. A wise choice would also leave in secret some intelligence or special forces assets just in case.

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      05-02-2012 08:27 AM #2431
      Quote Originally Posted by FlashRedGLS1.8T View Post
      a) While he's not a politician, he's good at using political speak. "I follow order....I served my country and defended it."

      b) More importantly, what's the backstory to this. Were you being a straight up dick or is there more to the story?



      It appears to be a former soldier....although once a marine...always a marine.
      There's nothing wrong with asking that question, as Tyler did, as long as it evolved from some sort of conversation.
      Meh..

      Its pretty selfish, and immature to say hurtful things to someone who served in order to further your own political agenda, and impress your fellow Paulites on Facebook.

      Tyler I like you, but son I am dissapoint

    17. 05-02-2012 08:57 AM #2432
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      I'd rather just focus on the people first and worry about the trade balance later.

      Get a nationalized education and healthcare system setup then cut away at other expenses as you see fit. Protect peole first so come better or worse at least we have our health and a mean to change our skills if the demand arrises.



      Making a video on facebook doesn't count
      Both go completely counter to our way of going about things.

      The strength of this country is in its people. They are from all over the planet,
      of all religions, thoughts, cultures, and expressions.

      Thus, education needs to highly flexible to account for drastically different
      approaches to math, the sciences, and etc. Group think is very, very bad
      for science, health care, chemistry, and so on. About the only thing that
      probably should be taught is English, basic math, and US History (not
      the revisionist stuff, thankyouverymuch).

      It is up to people to protect and defend and care for themselves. It is
      NOT something for government to do. In addition, this violates the diversity
      rule. Giving people the freedom to decide what is good, what is bad,
      what is risky, and what is not is how people evolve. It allows for demand
      to change, continuously, to the best, most effective medicine for their
      own particular circumstance for example. It is why we today have
      chiropractors, acupuncturers, and more.

      This concept that a small group of people (a federal government full of
      non-gods) could *possibly* understand and adapt to the most diverse
      group of peoples on the planet is absolutely utterly full of fail. It is
      the basis for communism, and this also ALWAYS fails.

      The reality is that the world is chaotic and ever changing, it is fluid,
      and not something to be pinned down. This is why a free market, and
      free choice in the areas of healthcare and education is so critical.
      Last edited by adoniram7; 05-02-2012 at 10:21 AM.

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      05-02-2012 09:34 AM #2433
      While "defended it from whom?" is a valid question, I think it's absolutely misguided to downplay the actions of a soldier who volunteered to serve his country and did what it asked of him. Whether or not there should be military bases on foreign soil indefinitely, or whether or not we should engage ourselves in foreign conflicts is NOT the soldier's decision, and badgering him for the meaning of actions he was asked to carry out is entirely non-productive when it comes to furthering the cause.

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      05-02-2012 10:40 AM #2434
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      It is up to people to protect and defend and care for themselves. It is
      NOT something for government to do.
      Sorry you lost me there.

      Going by this I'd almost think you' want us to also eliminate all local emergency services as well. It is my duty to defend my home. Put out any fires. And patch up my own injuries or use my money to pay someone else directly and not via taxes.

    20. 05-02-2012 11:11 AM #2435
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Sorry you lost me there.

      Going by this I'd almost think you' want us to also eliminate all local emergency services as well.
      Of course, in the context of a discussion about the size and scope of federal government, that wouldn't be a reasonable conclusion.
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    21. 05-02-2012 11:49 AM #2436
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Sorry you lost me there.

      Going by this I'd almost think you' want us to also eliminate all local emergency services as well. It is my duty to defend my home. Put out any fires. And patch up my own injuries or use my money to pay someone else directly and not via taxes.
      See Zuk's response.

      Also, it is a falsehood that if government went away, there'd be anarchy. NOT.
      If you understand anything about Economics, and Demand, you'd know that
      almost overnight you'd have specialists in any area of the particular service in
      demand filling the vacuum.

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      05-02-2012 11:53 AM #2437
      Quote Originally Posted by FlashRedGLS1.8T View Post
      a) While he's not a politician, he's good at using political speak. "I follow order....I served my country and defended it."

      b) More importantly, what's the backstory to this. Were you being a straight up dick or is there more to the story?
      I shared the link to that Anti-war.com article posted above and a discussion about the role of the US in Afghanistan began. Fairly civil and I simply made the point that I hate to see soldiers go off to fight and die in wars we shouldn't be involved in. He then said he would be glad to go back over there and I simply asked why. That quickly led to the screen shot you see (he posted it on his wall saying "this is why I don't talk to college kids about politics" and that is where the real madness took place. I'll share what happened there at the end of this.


      It appears to be a former soldier....although once a marine...always a marine.
      There's nothing wrong with asking that question, as Tyler did, as long as it evolved from some sort of conversation.
      It did. As I have shown.
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      Meh..

      Its pretty selfish, and immature to say hurtful things to someone who served in order to further your own political agenda, and impress your fellow Paulites on Facebook.
      I did not say anything hurtful, merely asking simple questions.

      Tyler I like you, but son I am dissapoint
      I'm sorry you feel that way. I will continue to do whatever I can to raise awareness in order to help try and stop more men/women (civilian and miliitary) dying for fruitless causes


      So he posted that picture on his wall. I didn't even see it untill someone sent me a message saying you might wanna go check it out. Let me share with you some of the posts that were made by his other military friends. This first guy threatened to kill me

      I got about 40 comments in before i couldnt take it anymore. Tyler youre an ignorant child. And one may think calling someone ignorant and a child at the same time is redundant but no. Not only do you have no knowledge of what we go through. Thats the ignorant part. But youre a child in the ways you try and voice your opinion behind a keyboard. Youre a spineless coward who would tuck its tail at the first sign of a veteran. I dont even know who the hell you are but you just lost 100% of my respect for you. Please... If you dont know, or dont agree with what we're over there fighting for, i invite you to stand in front of my mk19.. mounted m2.. Or 240b as i send a round straight through you. Im re-enlisting this month and i guarantee you if i learned anything while i was in. It was how to beat the **** out of ignorant bastards like yourself who know nothing about freedom or what it means to defend it. Whether you work a desk job, construction, or for a furtune 500 company.. You take your orders from someone higher than you. The only difference is we believe in our orders. And we'll fight for those beliefs till we have no bullets left. And when we have no bullets left ill climb down restrepo and engage the enemy in hand to hand and show them what macp is all about till i have no stength left in my body. And when i have no stength left in my body. I assure you they will know who the united states of ****ing america truely is.
      Needlesss? hardly. War sucks, but you have to decide if you'd rather fight the war here, or at its source. I think i speak for every american when i say i'd rather it be fought there.
      so 9-11 didnt happen i guess? Again, ignorance hurts.
      what a dick, probably doesnt even know whats really going on lol probably thinks kony is alive lol
      You think our rights have been stripped? Try walking down the streets of baghdad, with little kids and their mothers crying they are so happy to have us there. Thats where people like you fail to realize the truth. What you see as war, is what soldiers, marines, airmen, and sailors see as saving a population. Shame on you man. You cannot argue against something you don't understand.
      I hate the Internet for this reason... not everyone deserves to voice their opinion.
      I have zero qualms with our treatment of prisoners in Gitmo. I think that if you threaten one of us, you threaten all of us citizens. I think Gitmo is doing it right.
      For the good of the majority, a few must suffer, such as terrorists in Gitmo.
      The first part of this is my comment, followed by one by the OP
      I'd like to also say thanks to all the troops. I respect their dedication and resolve to serve this country, I simply wish it was in a different manner.
      11 hours ago · Like · 1

      Then **** YOU. **** you your not a American. Your a ****ing blind idiot. **** YOU. You will probably spit on the troops you claim to support. **** YOU


      Okay I have been waiting to say something to this ..First hi ! Nathan I Am steph=) second I am sickened by how you are talking about and to the people whom are defending your right to talk **** !
      Instead of telling them how wrong they are you should be on your knees thanking them and the families of the men and women who have lost there lives defending your right to be utterly stupid.!
      Nope dont bother sending more links about how war is wrong cause I don't care. Let me ask you this. What if there was no war when hitler was alive ? No one to stop him let me tell you we would not be where we are right now ! Nope not at all who knows you may not exsist. That's just one example . And guarenteed you would have been the cowards that would run anf hide when your needed to go fight. Instead there are men and women to protect us ! And hell they willing go! And for heaven sake give up so much to do so! Have some respect or keep your courageless mouth shut. We all know that if something happened where you live you would be guy cowarding in the corner=)
      What. the. ****.

      i figured it out.. hes a hipster. war, military, freedom, and politics is too mainstream for him.
      And this classic argument,
      Think you got it hard? The US is heaven compared to being a resident of 3rd world countries like the Philippines, North Korea, Syria, nations within Africa, etc. be thankful our "Tyrannical" government is as "bad" as you think it is. Sarcasm aside, we are not even close to that point.
      Mindless meatheads. I'm sorry, but that's all that can be said. This is only a few of the more choice comments. I chimed in here or there, but it was more enjoyable to sit back and laugh at these goons.
      Last edited by pentaxshooter; 05-02-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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      05-02-2012 11:54 AM #2438
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      See Zuk's response.

      Also, it is a falsehood that if government went away, there'd be anarchy. NOT.
      If you understand anything about Economics, and Demand, you'd know that
      almost overnight you'd have specialists in any area of the particular service in
      demand filling the vacuum.
      We need to have a talk.

      You need to take the an-cap red pill.
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    24. 05-02-2012 12:02 PM #2439
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      We need to have a talk.

      You need to take the an-cap red pill.
      "an-cap red pill". No idea wtf that is.

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      05-02-2012 12:17 PM #2440
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Silly statement. People are not bankrupt and have money.

      Your basing your entire political stance that government = always corrupt/always wastful. And because of this we must eliminate government as much as possible.

      Did you even stop to consider what happens next? - I'll tell you. Corruption and waste just move down a level. States. Counties. Town. Households. There is not "government" that is corrupt there are people working within a government that bring corruption and waste.
      Our Federal Government is Bankrupt and does not have money. That's why we have to have the Fed print money and buy US debt in the absence of foreign debt monetization.

      My entire political argument is not based only on that idea, but it certainly plays an important role. My political stance is based on the COTUS and the founding fathers' intent for the role of government and what I have seen the Federal Government do over the history of our country.

      In your assessment of what happens next, you imply that individuals have just as much influence at the federal level as the state/county/town level to enact ideas, policies, etc. I couldn't disagree more.
      We have much more influence over local government matters than at the Federal Level. To deny this is false.

      The structure of the Federal Government and it's intent has been manipulated to the point that corruption is gauranteed due to the benefits one can obtain from it. The more the government justifies sticking it's nose into the lives of it's citizens, policies, regulations, and laws will be written to benefit certain groups over others. This is why the COTUS was written to limit Federal Government powers. If there were no handouts to give, people wouldn't make shady back room deals and pass legislation to ensure they and there buddies get the handouts.

      It seems you are admitting corruption is present at the Federal Level and at the same time are advocating further reach into US citizens lives, which will lead to increased opportunity for corruption/waste/and abuse. US history tells us these things are present and have been present at the Federal Level for quite sometime.

      Frankly I can't trust our US government based on past actions, most specifically over the last 100 years. To see some of the things our Federal Government has done and has proposed to do in the past and currently is quite sobering and I can't help but come to the conclusion that most of those in gov at the federal level on both sides of the isle are not working in the best interest of the american people. As long as they can justify big government programs and polices, we will only see more of the same corruption/waste/abuse.

      Have you ever worked for both a small local company and a national major corporation? I can tell you that it is easier to influence policies and decisions at a small local company than at a major national corporation. This same concept applies at the government level as well.

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      05-02-2012 12:20 PM #2441
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      "an-cap red pill". No idea wtf that is.
      Anarchco-capitalist. The "red pill" is an allegory to the realization you get after reading a few books. Namely, Constitution of No Authority - Lysander Spooner, For a New Liberty - Murray N. Rothbard and The Law - Frederic Bastiat. Those should get you started on the right track
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      05-02-2012 12:21 PM #2442
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      I shared the link to that Anti-war.com article posted above and a discussion about the role of the US in Afghanistan began. Fairly civil and I simply made the point that I hate to see soldiers go off to fight and die in wars we shouldn't be involved in. He then said he would be glad to go back over there and I simply asked why. That quickly led to the screen shot you see (he posted it on his wall saying "this is why I don't talk to college kids about politics" and that is where the real madness took place. I'll share what happened there at the end of this.



      It did. As I have shown.

      I did not say anything hurtful, merely asking simple questions.


      I'm sorry you feel that way. I will continue to do whatever I can to raise awareness in order to help try and stop more men/women (civilian and miliitary) dying for fruitless causes


      So he posted that picture on his wall. I didn't even see it untill someone sent me a message saying you might wanna go check it out. Let me share with you some of the posts that were made by his other military friends. This first guy threatened to kill me

















      The first part of this is my comment, followed by one by the OP




      What. the. ****.



      And this classic argument,


      Mindless meatheads. I'm sorry, but that's all that can be said. This is only a few of the more choice comments. I chimed in here or there, but it was more enjoyable to sit back and laugh at these goons.
      Making a soldier question his service, where he undoubtedly saw brothers killed right in front of him is not good for his mental health.

      The last thing a guy like that needs to hear is that it was all for nothing dude. IMO you made a bad choice by attempting to raise awareness for your cause in that way. It's one thing to spread awareness by spreading your beliefs to those who may be on the fence about devoting their lives to military service; its another thing entirely to tell a guy his buddies died for nothing, and that he wasted his time..

      It was a selfish choice bro, and not cool regardless of how you justify it to yourself.

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      05-02-2012 12:24 PM #2443
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      See Zuk's response.

      Also, it is a falsehood that if government went away, there'd be anarchy. NOT.
      If you understand anything about Economics, and Demand, you'd know that
      almost overnight you'd have specialists in any area of the particular service in
      demand filling the vacuum.
      Nobody in their right mind thinks that fires won't be put out if the government went away. Of course the private sector would provide those services. The fundamental question about that is whether or not the private sector can equitably perform services that are humanitarian in nature. As inefficient as our government is, some services should not be run with maximizing profits in mind. Making the government more efficient is essential, not turning everything over to the free market.

      A large part of the anti-government argument is that power corrupts, which is completely true. Would I rather have someone in power that I and my fellow citizens vote for (and vote out when they prove to be corrupt), or would I rather have the power go to whoever can amass the most wealth? Definitely the former.

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      05-02-2012 12:27 PM #2444
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      Making a soldier question his service, where he undoubtedly saw brothers killed right in front of him is not good for his mental health.

      The last thing a guy like that needs to hear is that it was all for nothing dude. IMO you made a bad choice by attempting to raise awareness for your cause in that way. It's one thing to spread awareness by spreading your beliefs to those who may be on the fence about devoting their lives to military service; its another thing entirely to tell a guy his buddies died for nothing, and that he wasted his time..

      It was a selfish choice bro, and not cool regardless of how you justify it to yourself.
      X2. Whatever we feel about the war, respect the ones fighting it. Those people rightfully trust the judgement of their commanding officers, and their duty is to follow their orders. If we don't like the strategic vision of the military, the ballot is the way to address that. Telling a veteran he risked his life for nothing is just trolling.

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      05-02-2012 12:31 PM #2445
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Telling a veteran he risked his life for nothing is just trolling.
      But it's true
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      05-02-2012 12:38 PM #2446
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      But it's true
      That doesn't make it right Tyler. Are YOU going to pay for his psychologist? How about his rehab if the guy turns to substance abuse over this stuff?

      What if by some long shot the guy takes your words to heart, and blows his brains out?

      What you said is inexcusable, regardless of your justification. THINK MAN....

    32. 05-02-2012 12:42 PM #2447
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      But it's true
      So you might think. Others are entitled to conclude that telling someone he is wasting his life, even if you think that, is gratuitously abrasive.

      I would imagine that it would peeve someone to perform the kind of military service that supports your ability to speak freely, only to have you insult him for it.

      You aren't required to behave politely, but others are entitled to note your breach.

      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Would I rather have someone in power that I and my fellow citizens vote for (and vote out when they prove to be corrupt), or would I rather have the power go to whoever can amass the most wealth? Definitely the former.
      That's a false choice though. Market don't hand power over to whoever can "amass the most wealth". It gives discrete bits of power, mostly over one's own efforts and the results of one's efforts, in specific situations and distributed widely through the population.

      Moreover, you do not have the power to vote someone out for being corrupt, if you are in a political minority. By way of contrast, economic markets serve to protect minority rights.
      Last edited by zukiphile; 05-02-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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    33. 05-02-2012 12:47 PM #2448
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Anarchco-capitalist. The "red pill" is an allegory to the realization you get after reading a few books. Namely, Constitution of No Authority - Lysander Spooner, For a New Liberty - Murray N. Rothbard and The Law - Frederic Bastiat. Those should get you started on the right track
      Good grief. That isn't helpful at all, and I'm not interested in venturing
      down rabbit holes.

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      05-02-2012 12:50 PM #2449
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      That doesn't make it right Tyler. Are YOU going to pay for his psychologist? How about his rehab if the guy turns to substance abuse over this stuff?

      What if by some long shot the guy takes your words to heart, and blows his brains out?

      What you said is inexcusable, regardless of your justification. THINK MAN....
      It should be noted that I never actually said, in that conversation, that they were fighting for nothing.

      Either way, asking me to step in front of his gun so he can "put a round straight through me" is never excusable. I don't care what I said.
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    35. 05-02-2012 12:50 PM #2450
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Anarchco-capitalist. The "red pill" is an allegory to the realization you get after reading a few books.
      You know what is very interesting about that?
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