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    Thread: The ONE & ONLY 2012 Politics/Election Thread

    1. 05-02-2012 12:50 PM #2451
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Nobody in their right mind thinks that fires won't be put out if the government went away. Of course the private sector would provide those services. The fundamental question about that is whether or not the private sector can equitably perform services that are humanitarian in nature. As inefficient as our government is, some services should not be run with maximizing profits in mind. Making the government more efficient is essential, not turning everything over to the free market.

      A large part of the anti-government argument is that power corrupts, which is completely true. Would I rather have someone in power that I and my fellow citizens vote for (and vote out when they prove to be corrupt), or would I rather have the power go to whoever can amass the most wealth? Definitely the former.
      The "private sector" does humanitarian things perfectly well already. Far better
      than the government in many cases.

      I believe the things the federal government should do were outlined in the
      Constitution. I've not seen particularly much evidence that it has done well
      outside those limitations - certainly not better than the free market, or
      otherwise through the free association of individuals to lend helping hands.

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      05-02-2012 12:50 PM #2452
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      Good grief. That isn't helpful at all, and I'm not interested in venturing
      down rabbit holes.
      You don't like free books?
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    3. 05-02-2012 12:53 PM #2453
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      You don't like free books?
      FOCUS, man, focus.

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      05-02-2012 01:15 PM #2454
      I'm antiwar myself, and I just lost a lot of respect for you Pentax. Your conversation, and your reaction to other people's responses was not cool. [Neither was the invitation for you to stand in front of someone's rifle, but that doesn't justify your approach or what you said.]

      Protest the war, but support the soldier

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      05-02-2012 01:20 PM #2455
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      Good grief. That isn't helpful at all, and I'm not interested in venturing
      down rabbit holes.
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      I'm antiwar myself, and I just lost a lot of respect for you Pentax. Your conversation, and your reaction to other people's responses was not cool. [Neither was the invitation for you to stand in front of someone's rifle, but that doesn't justify your approach or what you said.]

      Protest the war, but support the soldier
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      05-02-2012 02:28 PM #2456
      I've had veteran after veteran message me and say thanks for what I said.
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      05-02-2012 02:52 PM #2457
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      The "private sector" does humanitarian things perfectly well already. Far better
      than the government in many cases.

      I believe the things the federal government should do were outlined in the
      Constitution. I've not seen particularly much evidence that it has done well
      outside those limitations - certainly not better than the free market, or
      otherwise through the free association of individuals to lend helping hands.
      Is that so? Is that the old "If the government weren't taking all my money for taxes, I'd have no problem donating to the unemployed, disabled, injured veterans, and otherwise needy folks" defense? Society as a whole has an interest in caring for those who can't care for themselves, and without a profit motive for those who can. If I were to venture a guess, even if you paid no taxes, you probably wouldn't be passing out checks to the unemployed.

      What is your evidence that the government has not done well at providing a police force, roads and other infrastructure, fire department, military, social programs, etc.? Just because things aren't exactly as you want them to be doesn't mean they aren't working.

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      05-02-2012 02:53 PM #2458
      I don't really like wading into political or military debates much but Im going to here. I do agree that the military service people are extremely brave and are doing something I would not do myself. That doesn't mean I like or agree with what they do or in any way feel indebted to them. I tend to keep my opinions to myself because I just don't care for the debate that would likely flow from it, but if I did for some reason feel the need to engage in a conversation about it don't feel I would need to couch my feelings and opinions regardless if the other person is military or not. While I personally wouldn't bother I see nothing wrong with what Pentax did.
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      05-02-2012 03:47 PM #2459
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Either way, asking me to step in front of his gun so he can "put a round straight through me" is never excusable. I don't care what I said.
      You can't kick a hornet's nest and then cry because you got stung...
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      05-02-2012 04:06 PM #2460
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      I've had veteran after veteran message me and say thanks for what I said.
      Not sure if serious

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      05-02-2012 04:11 PM #2461
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      Not sure if serious
      Completely. But then again I am friends with a lot of anti-war vets

      So your conversation with your military friend popped up in my news feed. As a veteran of the armed forces myself, I want to say thank you for speaking the truth even when it's unpopular. A lot (and I mean a lot) of veterans look for meaning in the horror they've been subjected to, so they rationalize how what they did and even them being over there in the first place was a "good thing."

      Someone mentioned the Americans killed in the 9/11 attacks, so that justifies inflicting 3-4 9/11's on ourselves in dead soldiers in these pointless wars of aggression? Not to mention, hundreds of thousands of dead innocent Iraqi, Afghani, and Pakistani civilians (they don't count as human anyway), and millions more wounded and displaced.

      Half of the people in that thread are ignorant chickenhawks who are such cowards that they would sacrifice all of their rights and millions of lives (including the troops they pretend to support) to save themselves from the statistically nonexistent threat of terrorism. Meanwhile, they drive their cars and eat fatty foods everyday, and one of the two will be the thing that actually kills them, not some scary brown person.

      Living free means putting up with the fact that there is danger in the world and acknowledging that bad things and bad people exist, and living a free and peaceful life anyway. If you and your government flail around like terrified children, destroying millions of lives at home and abroad just so you can enjoy the ILLUSION of security, guess what (and forgive the cliche') the terrorist have indeed won. /rant
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      05-02-2012 04:18 PM #2462
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Completely. But then again I am friends with a lot of anti-war vets
      Well then that makes what you just said a semi disingenuous statement doesn't it?

      Again I agree with 75% of your politics. But damn bro. What you did is akin to yelling the "n word" in Detroit, and then being perplexed as to why you got jumped!

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      05-02-2012 04:30 PM #2463
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      Well then that makes what you just said a semi disingenuous statement doesn't it?
      No, because that one was from someone I previously was unaware of being a vet.
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      05-02-2012 05:41 PM #2464
      Quote Originally Posted by jds215 View Post
      Have you ever worked for both a small local company and a national major corporation? I can tell you that it is easier to influence policies and decisions at a small local company than at a major national corporation. This same concept applies at the government level as well.
      Ever watched the news when X companies merges or buys out Y company?

      In most cases they explain out the assets and liabilities of companies involved. Most companies carry some kind of debt be is outstanding loans, purchase orders, or employee benefits. It comes down to the basic reason we have things like credit cards in the first place. Life woule be sucky if we had to buy everything with solid cash or gold coins.

      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      See Zuk's response.

      Also, it is a falsehood that if government went away, there'd be anarchy. NOT.
      If you understand anything about Economics, and Demand, you'd know that
      almost overnight you'd have specialists in any area of the particular service in
      demand filling the vacuum.
      And there we have it - the unreasonable expectation.

      The answer is no I don't want a world where I have to resort to hiring private security as police or make a call and use a credit card if I need a fire put out. I want to call 911 get a response and perhaps only have to pay if I was responsible in a case where emergency crews had some basic response fee.

      Nevermind the whole fact if we are also deregulating the government there is not much preventing these private providers from offering low quality service or engaging in uncompetitive price fixing tactics.


      Like I said earlier the only thing that has been accomplished is shifting corruption down a few levels.
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      05-02-2012 06:20 PM #2465
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Life woule be sucky if we had to buy everything with solid cash or gold coins.
      Credit cards could still exist with a commodity backed currency



      Like I said earlier the only thing that has been accomplished is shifting corruption down a few levels.[/QUOTE]
      Where it is more accountable and easily influenced. How is that a bad thing?
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      05-02-2012 06:43 PM #2466
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Where it is more accountable and easily influenced. How is that a bad thing?
      Accountable to whom.
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      05-02-2012 07:13 PM #2467
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Accountable to whom.
      If we all owned gold instead of paper bills in the last 10 years we would all be rich as ****.

      That is assuming the currencies of the world all collapsed like in 08.
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      05-02-2012 07:19 PM #2468
      Where it is more accountable and easily influenced. How is that a bad thing?
      <br />
      <br />
      Accountable to whom.
      The "consumer"

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      05-02-2012 07:21 PM #2469
      Quote Originally Posted by rsj0714 View Post
      If we all owned gold instead of paper bills in the last 10 years we would all be rich as ****.

      That is assuming the currencies of the world all collapsed like in 08.
      Anytime someone crows about how smart they are for investing in silver and gold in the face of the great eventually collapse I just laugh inside.

      Your gold is going to be worth as much as my bills.


      The "consumer"
      Do you try on purpose to just repeat the more far flung libertarian talking points

      The consumer... so the armed masses who are vigilant and watch over all business to ensure a fair and trustworthy society?
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      05-02-2012 07:48 PM #2470
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Do you try on purpose to just repeat the more far flung libertarian talking points

      The consumer... so the armed masses who are vigilant and watch over all business to ensure a fair and trustworthy society?
      The consumer picks and chooses which business survives in a capitalist system, buy purchasing goods and services from whoever he/she sees fit.

      Only when government steps in with its self serving regulation, and selective taxing does the consumer lose control over the marketplace.

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      05-02-2012 07:53 PM #2471
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Anytime someone crows about how smart they are for investing in silver and gold in the face of the great eventually collapse I just laugh inside.
      That was the joke. The problem with gold is it will fall.
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zero View Post
      Station wagons are for moms and Europe.

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      05-02-2012 08:28 PM #2472
      Quote Originally Posted by dubinsincuwereindiapers View Post
      The consumer picks and chooses which business survives in a capitalist system, buy purchasing goods and services from whoever he/she sees fit.

      Only when government steps in with its self serving regulation, and selective taxing does the consumer lose control over the marketplace.
      Still the issue of price fixing or worse industry wide low quality for the sake of profits.
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      05-02-2012 08:40 PM #2473
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Still the issue of price fixing or worse industry wide low quality for the sake of profits.
      Show me an example of price fixing (of any meaningful length) that occurred outside of government mandate/support.
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      05-02-2012 09:09 PM #2474
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Show me an example of price fixing (of any meaningful length) that occurred outside of government mandate/support.
      The most famous example I can think of:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine_...ing_conspiracy

      The lysine price-fixing conspiracy was an organized effort during the mid-1990s to raise the price of the animal feed additive lysine. It involved five companies that had commercialized high-tech fermentation technologies, including American company Archer Daniels Midland (ADM), Japanese companies Ajinomoto and Kyowa Hakko Kogyo, and Korean companies Sewon America Inc. and Cheil Jedang Ltd. A criminal investigation resulted in fines and three-year prison sentences for three executives of ADM who colluded with the other companies to fix prices. The foreign companies settled with the United States Department of Justice Antitrust Division in September through December 1996. Each firm and four executives from the Asian firms pled guilty as part of a plea bargain to aid in further investigation against ADM. The cartel had been able to raise lysine prices 70% within their first nine months of cooperation.[1]
      And:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christie's#Price-fixing_scandal


      In 2000, allegations surfaced of a price-fixing arrangement between Christie's and Sotheby's, another major auction house. Executives from Christie's subsequently alerted the Department of Justice of their suspicions of commission-fixing collusion.
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      05-02-2012 09:28 PM #2475
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      OK.. so your two examples of price fixing are for some chemical that the average person would never purchase, and a high end auction house, that sells things that only the very wealthy can afford?

      Amirite? This is your argument for price fixing?

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      05-02-2012 09:31 PM #2476
      YKK was another company that dealt with price-fixing.

      If Pentax is asking for companies that existed outside of government then it's harder to prove. Companies couldn't exist without a government charter pretty much since corporations were thought up.
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      05-02-2012 09:38 PM #2477
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      YKK was another company that dealt with price-fixing.

      If Pentax is asking for companies that existed outside of government then it's harder to prove. Companies couldn't exist without a government charter pretty much since corporations were thought up.
      Ding ding ding.

      Modern-day corporations are products of the state, not free market institutions.
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      05-02-2012 10:07 PM #2478
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      YKK was another company that dealt with price-fixing.

      If Pentax is asking for companies that existed outside of government then it's harder to prove. Corporations couldn't exist without a government charter pretty much since corporations were thought up.
      Fixed that for ya

      The point is; price fixing as its being presented is not a problem, and there are likely more examples of pricing being artificially raised via government intervention and taxes levied to present an unfair advantage to select companies which successfully lobbied, and bought themselves either tax breaks, or had heavier taxes imposed on their competition.

      Example...

      Monsanto

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#section_8
      http://www.democraticunderground.com...ess=433x749738
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile..._b_243810.html
      http://bestmeal.info/monsanto/facts.shtml

      Tell me Monsanto hasn't bought its alarming success BECAUSE of government intervention.

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      05-02-2012 10:07 PM #2479
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Ding ding ding.

      Modern-day corporations are products of the state, not free market institutions.
      So basically I can't provide any examples because you fixed a question to suit your own narrow worldview
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      05-02-2012 10:35 PM #2480
      Quote Originally Posted by pentaxshooter View Post
      Ding ding ding.

      Modern-day corporations are products of the state, not free market institutions.
      It's not just modern day corporations. Every corporation that's ever existed required the government to at least some degree.

      I'm not sure how a PO box in Delaware shows the government undermining of the free market. Then again I think a 100% free market would be a pretty depraved place.
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      05-03-2012 06:53 AM #2481


      Dick has a heart?
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    32. 05-03-2012 07:57 AM #2482
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      It's not just modern day corporations. Every corporation that's ever existed required the government to at least some degree.

      I'm not sure how a PO box in Delaware shows the government undermining of the free market. Then again I think a 100% free market would be a pretty depraved place.
      Good grief, this completely misses the point.

      First, a corporation is a group of people doing business. The term "corporation"
      is a tax idea. But groups of people doing business has been occurring since
      humans started trading. And "corporations" can be a couple people.

      Second, depravity starts with humans acting in that manner. Therefore,
      any system will have problems. ANY system. The one with the LEAST
      of all is ours. World-wide we have the LEAST corruption. The ones with
      the most tend to be those with the highest concentration of power in
      the hands of the few; i.e. communist, and dictatorships.

      Thus, if we have a continuum from least worst to best (with warts),
      it goes from examples like Kony and other dictators, to USSR (think Stalin),
      with a close second CHINA, and then on the other end of the spectrum,
      we have the United States being the best.

      Or, at least, we used to be, but since the 1900s boy have we started
      screwing that up as well.

      In sum, the general but imperfect rule is: less government, more freedom,
      less corruption, less depravity, less injustice.

      And of course, anyone who has ever worked in and around our federal
      government knows it's the most inefficient way of getting anything done.

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      05-03-2012 08:11 AM #2483
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      Good grief, this completely misses the point.

      First, a corporation is a group of people doing business. The term "corporation"
      is a tax idea. But groups of people doing business has been occurring since
      humans started trading. And "corporations" can be a couple people.

      Second, depravity starts with humans acting in that manner. Therefore,
      any system will have problems. ANY system. The one with the LEAST
      of all is ours. World-wide we have the LEAST corruption. The ones with
      the most tend to be those with the highest concentration of power in
      the hands of the few; i.e. communist, and dictatorships.

      Thus, if we have a continuum from least worst to best (with warts),
      it goes from examples like Kony and other dictators, to USSR (think Stalin),
      with a close second CHINA, and then on the other end of the spectrum,
      we have the United States being the best.

      Or, at least, we used to be, but since the 1900s boy have we started
      screwing that up as well.

      In sum, the general but imperfect rule is: less government, more freedom,
      less corruption, less depravity, less injustice.

      And of course, anyone who has ever worked in and around our federal
      government knows it's the most inefficient way of getting anything done.
      There was less government in 1820 than there was in 1999. Which society do you think was better for minorities? Women? Or do they not matter in your narrative since they had the terrible misfortune of not being born white males?

      I'm not going to argue that government always does right but there are times when they get it right. Also, there are weird times in the "good old days" when the government halted the free market. Southern states would not allow for the freeing of slaves by bequest and not allowing minorities to own property or get a private education.

      If we had a regulatory setup like the 1820s now it would probably work but it took a good deal of meddling to get where we are today. Also, thanks for the irrelevant history of corporations as if I was totally unaware.
      PSN: PhilipGTI
      Quote Originally Posted by joness0154 View Post
      If your ass looks like a Jeep after playing off-road, I don't know what to say. Change up your diet, maybe?

    34. 05-03-2012 09:23 AM #2484
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      There was less government in 1820 than there was in 1999. Which society do you think was better for minorities? Women? Or do they not matter in your narrative since they had the terrible misfortune of not being born white males?

      I'm not going to argue that government always does right but there are times when they get it right. Also, there are weird times in the "good old days" when the government halted the free market. Southern states would not allow for the freeing of slaves by bequest and not allowing minorities to own property or get a private education.

      If we had a regulatory setup like the 1820s now it would probably work but it took a good deal of meddling to get where we are today. Also, thanks for the irrelevant history of corporations as if I was totally unaware.
      OK, now expand your argument world-wide please. You seem to think
      slavery and minorities and women issues are all uniquely American.

      Boy are you wrong. TOTALLY wrong. Of course, modern revisionists
      like to leave out that comparison to make us all look like horrible people.
      But then, that's been the point: to undermine all that is good about
      this country.
      Last edited by adoniram7; 05-03-2012 at 09:25 AM.

    35. Geriatric Member ATL_Av8r's Avatar
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      05-03-2012 09:29 AM #2485
      Quote Originally Posted by A.Wilder View Post

      Dick has a heart?
      Mine does. Sometimes I can feel it beating.
      MemeGate 2012 - First Responder, post #2

      Quote Originally Posted by .skully.
      Mike, quote me in your signature

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