mk4 track cars. . lets see what you got.

[ianacole]

I miss mine

http://www.wasabiraceteam.com/galler...pionships.html

[zooyork155]

I miss mine

http://www.wasabiraceteam.com/galler...pionships.html

GTS2, that must have been awesome! Mind sharing details on your setup?

[ianacole]

GTS2, that must have been awesome! Mind sharing details on your setup?

It was a hoot! Most details can be found here: http://www.wasabiraceteam.com/carbuildspec.html We used GIAC software.

[zooyork155]

It was a hoot! Most details can be found here: http://www.wasabiraceteam.com/carbuildspec.html We used GIAC software.

Thanks!
What were you're impressions regarding the Peloquin diff? I'm on the fence between that and wavetrac and am having a hard time believing all the conjecture about wavetrac's superiority.

[chois]

@chois
haha, thank you for your concern.

No worries. Some of us always tend to make that comment in a thread with cars like this, maybe more for other folks that are reading than anything. Not everyone is aware of the risk.

I decided a while back that what made me comfortable on the street and on the track were different enough that I would not mess with double duty stuff. It is as much about not wanting to wad up a nice street car, as it is about not wanting to live with track/race car characteristics and risks on the street. We all have a different take on those things...

On the differential questions - if the car is really just a track car, I can't say enough good about a welded differential or a spool. In my circle of road racing VW friends we have tested quaiffe and wavetrak but have found a locker to the be fastest solution. The Quaiffe did better with a whole lot of preload, but then it only lasted one race. The wavetrak was modified with more aggressive friction discs, but still did not lock as aggressively as we wanted. The old VW Motorsport clutch style diffs were more tuneable, and may be better but we didn't test them. I know that the APR continental challenge guys have some sort of very nice differential setup, but it is 5 digit price range...

my $.02

[ianacole]

Thanks!
What were you're impressions regarding the Peloquin diff? I'm on the fence between that and wavetrac and am having a hard time believing all the conjecture about wavetrac's superiority.

We actually removed the Peloquin in favor of a Kaaz LSD. The Kaaz performed much better in race conditions than the Peloquin (which was great in autocross).

[WOB-SH573]

We actually removed the Peloquin in favor of a Kaaz LSD. The Kaaz performed much better in race conditions than the Peloquin (which was great in autocross).

interesting, more on the Kaaz please.

[chois]

We actually removed the Peloquin in favor of a Kaaz LSD. The Kaaz performed much better in race conditions than the Peloquin (which was great in autocross).

The thing with the Kaaz is that it still opens up on decel. One of the benefits of the locker is that you can not lock one front tire, only both, so you can get away with a little more aggressive braking. That and you can also make the track wider. When you really need to a pass only requires about 2 - 3 feet of pavement.

[ianacole]

The thing with the Kaaz is that it still opens up on decel. One of the benefits of the locker is that you can not lock one front tire, only both, so you can get away with a little more aggressive braking. That and you can also make the track wider. When you really need to a pass only requires about 2 - 3 feet of pavement.

If I recall, and it's been over a year, the Kaaz was a 1.5 diff, full lock on accel, .5 lock on decel... They offer both, check the bottom of this page:

http://www.kaazusa.com/tech_intro.html

Again, if I recall correctly, we went with the 1.5 and we could outbrake almost everyone.

[zooyork155]

For someone working their way through hpde to TT and not planning any w2w, would a peloquin be a good investment or is the Kaaz worth the difference? Does a Kaaz require more maintenance?

[ianacole]

For someone working their way through hpde to TT and not planning any w2w, would a peloquin be a good investment or is the Kaaz worth the difference? Does a Kaaz require more maintenance?

I'd recommend the Kaaz over the Peloquin, and I really liked the Peloquin. Depending on "abuse," the Kaaz will require periodic maintanance.

[rex_racer]

The KAAZ as purchased from KAAZ is a 1.5 way unit. You can change the friction plates and the cone spring to alter the lockup rate and the total amount that it locks up. You can also purchase a 2 way cam for it, allowing for 100% lock in both directions. KAAZ recommends changing the fluid after each full track day. If you are running the car in a DD/autox situation, you can extend the intervals to every 5,000 miles, but it is preferable that you change even sooner than that to fully extend the life of the differential. When used with larger tires, ie more than a 225 the plates do a decent job of holding each other and will lock pretty well. When used with a 245 on up, the plates will slip under the factory build, this isn't to say that it doesn't lock, just that they won't pop in and out of place.

I was one of the early adopters for the MKIV platform and put roughly 50k miles on the unit before rebuilding it. I was quite a bit past the service life of the plates and probably should have rebuilt it around 30-35k miles for maximum performance. However I have always used the plates with at least a 245 width tire and as an autox DD setup. In a road racing situation, I would expect to rebuild the differential once per season, especially so if the car is a track only car.

Between a Peloquin and a Wavetrac I would go w/ a Wavetrac unit simply becuase it nearly removes lag time before the differential operates. For a full out setup however, the spool as recommended earlier would likely be the best option. Each setup has its own characteristics and very specific setup and driving style, as well as ability to forgive the driver for clumsy driving.

[WOB-SH573]

Thanks for the info. Curious where you guys would rate the Quaife against the above diffs since it hasn't been mentioned. thanks

[2 doors]

Quaife = Peloquin. They are the same design/style of diff.

The Kazz sounds like a lot of work to me. Dropping the trans for maintenance is more than I'd want to mess with.

[2 doors]

My only advice to you is not to get to carried away (I did!!) if you're not carefull you end up with a car that's just to fragile, expensive & time consuming to keep running.

QFT. This is the main reason I haven't done anything more than chip my car. Sure a BT would make it faster, but I'm not willing to risk shortening the life of the engine, the downtime and cost associated with an engine rebuild. I learned my lesson using the lower ball joint spacers to try and gain negative camber. I lost the entry fee for a day at the track and never completed a single lap after my halfshaft seperated. Then I had to pay to fix that.

Turning laps in a slow car is more fun than spending a track weekend wrenching on a broken fast car.

[2 doors]

Details of the cage:
1. It's a half-cage. There are no bars up front to hit my head on (Cage is behind the seats ONLY).

I don't know who first coined this term, but they should be shot, IMO. This is a silly, non-sensical, incorrect term. There is no such thing as a half-cage. A cage is, by definintion, an enclosed space. You either have one or you don't. You cannot have half of one. Would you take small children to the zoo where the lions, tigers and bears were kept in half-cages? Would you live next to the prison where the inmates were kept in half-cells? Would you eat your soup out of a half-bowl? Would you keep your goldfish in a half-tank?

What you have is a four point roll BAR, nothing more, nothing less. If and when you add bars to the front, then you will have a roll CAGE.

(rant over)

I have a similar Autopower bar in my car, except I got mine with the bolt in harness bar and diagonal bar. In hindsight, I might have been better getting the welded verison like you have. It looks like you reinforced the mounting points at the floor. I did the same. I was very disappointed to see that the intended mounting points were right over the rubber drain plugs in the floor. Actually, in hindsight, I would have been better off having a custom bar built.

[WOB-SH573]

QFT. This is the main reason I haven't done anything more than chip my car. Sure a BT would make it faster, but I'm not willing to risk shortening the life of the engine, the downtime and cost associated with an engine rebuild. I learned my lesson using the lower ball joint spacers to try and gain negative camber. I lost the entry fee for a day at the track and never completed a single lap after my halfshaft seperated. Then I had to pay to fix that.

Turning laps in a slow car is more fun than spending a track weekend wrenching on a broken fast car.

I hear ya, missed plenty of days trying to fix my car AT the track. NOT fun...

[3lfk1ng]

I don't know who first coined this term, but they should be shot, IMO.

haha, It's a term that everyone uses and understands, don't let it get to you.

[rex_racer]

A Quaife is built relatively the same as the Peloquin, although some have claimed that the Peloquin biases more torque to the loaded wheel. I have not seen any quantifiable data or testing to prove this, other than peoples opinions from driving various cars with both TBDs. Most would rate the Peloquin higher than the Quaife as warranty support seems to be better and they tend to come with ARP ring bolts, which is necessary hardware for installing the ring gear to the differential.

[MkV_Racer]

As far as Diffs go I cannot say enough good things about the Wavetrac. Tech support was awesome. The warranty is great. I ran mine on DOT slicks and never had a wheel spin problem. Even when a tire was unloaded. I did have the upgraded frictions. They updated mine for free.

I Also Used a Kaaz. Loved it at first. Then it wore out. No tech support and parts were impossible. After less than a season it needed rebuilt and it took two months to get parts. Rebuilt lasted a while longer with some upgraded steels they sent. I decided that when I took it out again I was going to switch to the Wavetrac. Never looked back.

Drove cars with Quaifes/Peloquins and like them but there a few track we run on that if you touch the curbs it creates a problem.

[turbonium89]

has any one converted to irs? without going to awd?

[2 doors]

I don't know if anyone has. I've thought about it (I'm an engineer, so I think about stuff like that). It doesn't seem either easy to do, or really worth it. There's not sufficient structure under the car to attach arms and links to. You'd have to add a whole lot of braces and things that would just add weight. And really, what would you hope to gain? You can buy shims to change the camber and/or toe. You still have sway bars, springs and shocks available to tune the handling. On a track/race car, you're certainly not worried about ride comfort.

[3lfk1ng]

If you're downright crazy you could do what 034 motorsports did. They went IRS in their mid-engine 2.7T based GTI-RS with a Porsche 996 rear suspension from Porsche Dismantlers in LA.

When I talked to them at Wustefest last year they said that it needed a lot of dialing in. The front of the car handled like a Golf and the rear like a Porsche. At the time they were messing around with different springs on the front.

It just doesn't seem feasible.

[rex_racer]

Have you ever disconnected the rear shocks and removed the rear springs? The arms move fairly independent of each other considering there's an 18mm bar tieing them together in addition to the beam setup. If you're looking to increase grip, you're working on the wrong end.

[turbonium89]

i was just curious as to whether anyone had done it. i know id never do it unless i had the awd to go with it shipped to my door for free. and thats the only way hahaha.

034 is preeettty insane. and that car is crazy. idk how they manage to pull it off 75% of the time without more things breaking. i heard they have destroyed 20 different rear diffs. its amazing what you can do with cars.

i just want a low, wide, light, fun to drive jetta. and reason i didnt put another car make and model there is because i own it, and i'm lovin' being stuck with her cause she amazes me with what we've been through. never would have thought i'd like the jetta.

my gf and i are building her a 69 bug and that makes me want to make my own. she has been learning everything about tracking my car through me, and wants to expand it towards her bug. it makes me happy that just taking a under dog type of car and doing a few small things can make them surprise a lot of people at the track. its rewarding

next for the jetta is to get suspension and brakes.
i really want a good set of coils with camber plates, i want upper and lower strusses, i want spherical joints in the control arms and transmission dogbone mount.
for brakes, i want the r32 or equivalent front brakes, and i want to swap my oe fronts to the rear.

then from there i want to work on some aero. whats your opinions

[4ceFed4]

For suspension I ran:
Ground Control coilovers
Ground Control front camber plates
Ground Control reach articulating perches
850 front springs, 500 rear
Shine Racing Service rear sway bar
Front Sway bar removed
H2 Sport front spindles & control arms

Nice setup, very similar to mine. What struts and shocks are you running? You seemed to have left out the most important part

Without spending $1200 a corner I haven't found much that can actually keep up with spring rates that high.

[rex_racer]

Nice setup, very similar to mine. What struts and shocks are you running? You seemed to have left out the most important part

Without spending $1200 a corner I haven't found much that can actually keep up with spring rates that high.

ADs can easily handle those rates. I've run my ADs from 400lb on up to 950lb springs. Cost per shock is far below $1200.

[4ceFed4]

ADs can easily handle those rates. I've run my ADs from 400lb on up to 950lb springs. Cost per shock is far below $1200.

ADs?

[1FLiGLi]

Turning laps in a slow car is more fun than spending a track weekend wrenching on a broken fast car.

AMEN, Brother 2 doors!!! Exactly why I will never turbo, SC, etc. my 16V. It's slow, but (knock on wood) it's reliable.

Cheers,

FLi

[2 doors]

next for the jetta is to get suspension and brakes.
i really want a good set of coils with camber plates, i want upper and lower strusses, i want spherical joints in the control arms and transmission dogbone mount.
for brakes, i want the r32 or equivalent front brakes, and i want to swap my oe fronts to the rear.

then from there i want to work on some aero. whats your opinions

If I were to do my suspension over again, it would be Koni yellows and GC coilovers. I have the lower tie bar and it gave a small, but noticeable steering improvement. I'm still not convinced upper strut bars do much, so I say save your money. Spherical bushings for the lower control arms are a good idea, but I don't think there would be much benefit in the dogbone.

For brakes, swapping the OE fronts to the rear will be too big and heavy and not easy to do. Get the 337/20th rears (vented 10" very similar to TT and R32's, but made for FWD cars) and some aggressive pads.

I say again - put some money aside for safety gear. Race seats and harnesses are great investments.

[2 doors]

AMEN, Brother 2 doors!!! Exactly why I will never turbo, SC, etc. my 16V. It's slow, but (knock on wood) it's reliable.

Cheers,

FLi

See you next weekend. Let's hope the weather is better than this weekend.

[rex_racer]

ADs?

ADs, Advance Design. They are an in house shock made by Ground Control. My particular units were valved for a 600-1000lb spring range. However in testing I have found that they still work on the street with rates as low as 400. I have only gone as high as 900 (checked my springs tonight and I don't have 950s in the box), and the shocks felt like they were still able to handle the rate on the street as well as the track, so I wouldn't doubt their 1000lb range. I did quickly remove the 900lb spring however, as the car was a bit too loose. With the higher rear downforce package I think the car would have stuck better, but we lost a LOT of accell just going to our medium downforce package, so we opted not to use that overall suspension and aero package.

I'll refer you to my AD thread I created and have kept mostly up to date: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...advance+design.

I've taken the past almost 2 years now off from autox and motorsports and ventured into competitive mountain biking. I still have the car and since I'm not racing I've been testing w/ various setups around a BRB setup and a BFB setup. Its lead to some VERY interesting results on the street. The car feels better than it ever has before and I have confidence that if I were to go back now, the car would be quicker. I'll need to update the AD thread at some point with all my findings. While I'm taking the time off I'm attacking a lot of maintenance issues ranging from leaks to worn bushings. The car essentially going through an overhaul.

[chois]

I run ADs as well. If you do make a big change in spring rate, they can easily be rebuilt/revalved for the new application.

[mcgyver7923]

I'm subscribing. Lots of great info here guys!! I have been running my 1.8t reliably for years and have put probably 15k track miles on it since I got it in 03. I'm really loving all the suspension and aero talk. I just added a Water/Meth setup to my car to deal with heat issues at the track with my K04 and the car is quite a bit quicker now running in the APR 100octane tune. I'm concerned about down force at full throttle going through the kinks on some tracks. The car already felt kinda light...but now I think I'll be doing 8-10mph faster!!!! I'm looking at cages and seats. My butt and knee are sore after every track day :-(. I'm also thinking about what to do to the suspension next. I'm only running H&R sport springs and bilstein struts and shocks. I have ground control camber plates but not the cut versions and the maintenance sucks on them. I also have a bildon rear bar in the axle beam. Honestly the car is amazingly balanced as is running nitto NT-01's. I have all poly bushings in the front other then the subframe mounts which are fresh OE. I do have the stock front sway bar. I also have a nuespeed strut tower brace. I have poly spring perches in the rear.

Adding to this that I do have a harness bar and 4 points installed. Not sure how to mount the 5th with the stock Wolfsburg seats.

Can you guys recommend some cost effective suspension changes? I'm afraid to make it worse but I know I can make it stick more in the corners.

[rybacs]

YouTube " vw GLI 1.8t @ njmp lighting circuit "