2012 PZEV 2.0 T oil question

[spand]

This is a first time post, seems like a great forum.

I have 2012 2 liter CC. It is the PZEV moter, so CA emissions. The owners manual calls for 502.00 or 503.00. The sticker under the hoods states 502.00. I am pretty sure our dealer uses the Castrol SLX Pro LL3 which is 504 and 507 approved so they can use it across the board (gas and TDI). I want to go to the dealer while the vehicle is under warranty, otherwise I would do all changes myself - love the oil filter being on top.

I have been reading posts trying to figure out if I should insist on 502 or just go with the 504/507 oil the dealer has. I am not sure if there is a concesus on which way to go - it seems the 502 may provide better wear protection vs better intake deposit control with 503/507. One other thing, I plan on changing the oil every 5k rather than 10k per VW. About 1200 miles on it currently.

Any comments on 502 vs 504 would be great, and also does 504 encompass 502?

By the way, the vehcile is really nice, at least that is what my wife says as she pulls out of the garage smiling leaving me a little jealous!!

[DasCC]

504 superseded 502. They'll both work.


Typos courtesy of iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

[spand]

thanks for the info, will "trust" the dealer that they will use the 504 oil. i guess i am still curious why the sticker under the hood specifically states 502.00 - the vehicle has a late 2011 build date, i would imagine it would include the 504 option as well.

[gmikel]

504 does not superside 502 but rather 503.. google vw oil specs. it's probably all good but if you're on warranty use what's called for.

[DasCC]

504 does not superside 502 but rather 503.. google vw oil specs. it's probably all good but if you're on warranty use what's called for.

Oops I stand corrected! I knew it replaced something


Typos courtesy of iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

[BsickPassat]

504 does not superside 502 but rather 503.. google vw oil specs. it's probably all good but if you're on warranty use what's called for.

504 does "supercede" both 502 and 503 specifications. It is suitable for both flexible service (503) and fixed intervals (502)

likewise, 507 covers both fixed (505) and flexible service (506) for TDI's

[Apexxx]

Problem.

The sticker states VW 502 because that's what's needed to deal w/our high sulphur fuels in the USA. Although 504 "exceeds the requirements of 502" or is "recommended for 502", the products themselves are very different, 504 being a low-saps oil...basically low-additive, intended for the nice clean Euro petrol.

In contrast, dealer Syntec 502 has high additive levels, across the board.

Any qualified shop should know this, and use 504 in the diesels only. A prime example is BMW, they already acknowledge the issue with low-saps LL-04 oils in the USA, specing the "older" LL-01 oils instead.

You mention Cali emissions, afaik, there is no difference in the engine or emissions. Unless CA legislates low-sulphur fuel, you are in the same boat as everyone else and should avoid the low--saps oils.


http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html

[BsickPassat]

502 is also low SAPs since the last revision.

[gmikel]

504 does "supercede" both 502 and 503 specifications. It is suitable for both flexible service (503) and fixed intervals (502)

likewise, 507 covers both fixed (505) and flexible service (506) for TDI's

it's not what i read but, i do believe you know what you're talking about

[spand]

Re: CA emissions, this was unfortunately my non-technical way of trying to describe the engine, i know there are two types (CBFA and CCTA), living in RI, we have the "CA" emission which I used instead of the proper term CBFA. But the manual specs 502 for the CBFA motor. is this issue improtant enough to insist the dealer uses a 502 or will my 5k oil changes allow me to always have enough additives if using 504. Also, i have read that the 504 oil may help in reducing intake build up b/c of the additives used in the formulation.

[spand]

btw - thanks for the link apexxx

[Apexxx]

I thin it'd be best to say, not to use 504 oils in cars not ever speced for it. That is, avoid it in most cases.

Many of the DI and deposit issues came about at the same time as VW 504...and there were definitely problems.

I have some Valvoline Racing Synth for this summer. Any oil rated API SL, SM, or SN won't have any issues with excessive zink or SA.

[BsickPassat]

Many of the DI and deposit issues came about at the same time as VW 504...and there were definitely problems.
.

100% wrong.

the DI and deposit issues came about due to the nature of DI.

Even one of your favorite sources, Lubrizol, lists a study showing Euro 4 oils, ie Low-SAPs oil (which includes 504 and some 502) show a reduction of deposits in the intake compared to Mid-SAPs oils (Euro 3)

[Apexxx]

Umm, I said it was *at the same time*, which it was.

low-saps is a BMW LL-04, with <.8% SA, not VW 504 with <1.5%, not really a huge reduction over the previous <1.6%.

idk what your point is anyway.

Intake deposits, in a warm lab, with European fuels is hardly the touchstone for our deposit issues in USA. If you are to buy into the test thing, how did we end up with such a grevious deposit issue anyway? I mean afterall, didn't VW "test" the fuel/oil combo of VW 502 and USA fuels? Hmm?

Everyone says, "oh the VW engineers know everything". Well, do they?

[gmikel]

Umm, I said it was *at the same time*, which it was.

low-saps is a BMW LL-04, with <.8% SA, not VW 504 with <1.5%, not really a huge reduction over the previous <1.6%.

idk what your point is anyway.

Intake deposits, in a warm lab, with European fuels is hardly the touchstone for our deposit issues in USA. If you are to buy into the test thing, how did we end up with such a grevious deposit issue anyway? I mean afterall, didn't VW "test" the fuel/oil combo of VW 502 and USA fuels? Hmm?

Everyone says, "oh the VW engineers know everything". Well, do they?

switch to the other half and take your meds.

[Dennis M]

502 is also low SAPs since the last revision.

Are you sure about? Because there are high SAPS 502 oils. Look at M1 0W-40 for instance. It has 1000 ppm's of phosphorus, 1100 ppms' of zinc, and sulphated ash of 1.3% and meets 502 so I believe it would not be considered low or even mid SAPS.
M1 0W-40 data sheet pdf
M1 zinc & phosphorus levels pdf
This Motul X-clean data sheet has more info on mid SAPS levels

TYPE OF USE
Lubricant specially designed for last generation cars, powered by turbo Diesel direct injection or
gasoline engines, EURO IV emission regulation compliant, requiring an ACEA C3 engine oil, high
HTHS (> 3.5 mPa.s) viscosity and "Mid SAPS" with reduced content of suphated ash (= 0.8%),
phosphorus (0.07 = x = 0.09%) and sulphur (= 0.3%).
Suitable for any type of Diesel or gasoline engines calling for ACEA A3/B3 or A3/B4 lubricants.
ATTENTION : For BMW vehicles, this product can be used for gasoline engines only in European
Union countries, Switzerland, Norway and Liechtenstein. Refer to BMW recommendation.

And here's the Lubrizol document.
http://www.lubrizol.com/richmedia/En...6LowerSAPS.pdf

[BsickPassat]

Umm, I said it was *at the same time*, which it was.

low-saps is a BMW LL-04, with <.8% SA, not VW 504 with <1.5%, not really a huge reduction over the previous <1.6%.

idk what your point is anyway.

Intake deposits, in a warm lab, with European fuels is hardly the touchstone for our deposit issues in USA. If you are to buy into the test thing, how did we end up with such a grevious deposit issue anyway? I mean afterall, didn't VW "test" the fuel/oil combo of VW 502 and USA fuels? Hmm?

Everyone says, "oh the VW engineers know everything". Well, do they?

mass produced gasoline direct injection was introduced prior to Audi.

Other companies, including Toyota and Mitsubishi introduced GDI to the masses before Audi --- and they have experienced the carbon deposits before the Euro IV days.

At least Toyota, learned from their earlier GDI (D4) production and introduced D4-S with both port & direct injection. They introduced that when VW/Audi just introduced us to the 2.0T FSI. And the D4-S does not suffer from carbon deposits, using US Gas and regular Group II engine oil.

Lo and behold... the next generation of FSI/TSI technology is marrying port injection with direct injection, just like Toyota.

[Apexxx]

Are you sure about? Because there are high SAPS 502 oils. Look at M1 0W-40 for instance. It has 1000 ppm's of phosphorus, 1100 ppms' of zinc, and sulphated ash of 1.3% and meets 502 so I believe it would not be considered low or even mid SAPS.
M1 0W-40 data sheet pdf
M1 zinc & phosphorus levels pdf
This Motul X-clean data sheet has more info on mid SAPS levels

TYPE OF USE
Lubricant specially designed for last generation cars, powered by turbo Diesel direct injection or
gasoline engines, EURO IV emission regulation compliant, requiring an ACEA C3 engine oil, high
HTHS (> 3.5 mPa.s) viscosity and "Mid SAPS" with reduced content of suphated ash (= 0.8%),
phosphorus (0.07 = x = 0.09%) and sulphur (= 0.3%).
Suitable for any type of Diesel or gasoline engines calling for ACEA A3/B3 or A3/B4 lubricants.
ATTENTION : For BMW vehicles, this product can be used for gasoline engines only in European
Union countries, Switzerland, Norway and Liechtenstein. Refer to BMW recommendation.

And here's the Lubrizol document.
http://www.lubrizol.com/richmedia/En...6LowerSAPS.pdf

Good post. Syntec 5w-40 is (what I consider) high organo-metallics, like 1200ppm across the board.


Lubrizol explains, ina roundabout way, the new oils aren't for engine longevity or performance, rather emissions protection and EU legislation:

UEIL Congress 2005
– European automotive lubricant trends and impact on base oil
requirements
• Growth in demand for lighter viscosity grades is resulting in a
change in base oils used for engine oil formulations: API Group III
• Aftertreatment compatibility is leading to
a new generation of additive technology:
Lower SAPS1 engine oils
• These changes are the result of new
emissions legislation: Euro 42


Note 1 – SAPS is a common acronym for Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, Sulphur
Note 2 - Detailed in Directive 98/69/EC


So, as I say, oils like Mobil 1 High Miles aren't trying to meet the "uber-important VW spec", because it's not actually ideal, outside the European Parliament building.

For USA, there are either *very few* good oils for 2.0 TSI or they *all* pretty much work fine, meaning auto store jug synthetic 5w-30....the answer depends on the amount of brainwashing. Sure, the tech tells the layman that 504 is "new and better".... thus the cycle begins.

Anyway, back to the OT, 504 for 5000 miles in a new vehicle if the dealer is paying for it....sure, fine. The data I've seen, I wouldn't trade anything in my home oil stash for M1 ESP or SLX Pro OE.

I have my last fill of green German Syntec 0w-30 coming up...

[gmikel]

Umm, I said it was *at the same time*, which it was.

low-saps is a BMW LL-04, with <.8% SA, not VW 504 with <1.5%, not really a huge reduction over the previous <1.6%.

idk what your point is anyway.

Intake deposits, in a warm lab, with European fuels is hardly the touchstone for our deposit issues in USA. If you are to buy into the test thing, how did we end up with such a grevious deposit issue anyway? I mean afterall, didn't VW "test" the fuel/oil combo of VW 502 and USA fuels? Hmm?

Everyone says, "oh the VW engineers know everything". Well, do they?

with di NO fuel goes by the intake valve. what does it matter the source? just wondering

[spand]

apexxx - is GC 502 approved? i used this for my nissan 3.5 - served me well for 120,000 miles

[Apexxx]

Yes, sir.



There is a whisper of fuel drawn across the intake when the valves lap doing VVT stuff. Crankcase oil mist is discharged into the intake, that's most of the deposit problem.


Using less volatile oil is the best way to minimise vapour condensation. SynPower 10w-30 is amazingly low, under 10% NOWACK

This is an old AMSoil study.




I Seafoam my intake once a year and I don't **** with the airfilter.
Top-Tier fuels often too.

[gmikel]

Yes, sir.



There is a whisper of fuel drawn across the intake when the valves lap doing VVT stuff. Crankcase oil mist is discharged into the intake, that's most of the deposit problem.


Using less volatile oil is the best way to minimise vapour condensation. SynPower 10w-30 is amazingly low, under 10% NOWACK

This is an old AMSoil study.




I Seafoam my intake once a year and I don't **** with the airfilter.
Top-Tier fuels often too.

do they offer buy one get one free if you call in the next 30 minutes and throw in free shipping?

[GL03]

The dealer is using a oil convenient and cost profit for them and not for your vehicles benefit.

Use the factory recommended oil. FInd a dealer that has it or have them order the oil prior to your service visit.

Request factory 502 or 503 on your paperwork.

[meboice]

So what gets rid of the deposits? I have an 2012 TDi, but my 07 Passat 2.0 might benefit from a shop injector cleaning service to help remove the deposits, yes?

[gmikel]

So what gets rid of the deposits? I have an 2012 TDi, but my 07 Passat 2.0 might benefit from a shop injector cleaning service to help remove the deposits, yes?

while it might clean the injectors, it will do nothing for the intake valves or ports. no fuel passes through the intake tract as it is injected directly into the combustion chamber. the pcv is plumbed into the intake tract and eventually fouls the intake valve and ports. you can try seafoam through the iat port or manually clean the valves. manual cleaning is best, but requires removal of the intake manifold.

[BsickPassat]

seafoam is useless through the IAT port as well as their spray can through the throttle body

there is manual cleaning... and supposedly BG's chemically assisted manual cleaning

[gmikel]

i feel the same way, but some seem to think it helps. after doing a mnaual cleaning myself, cannot imagine a spay doing the job.