Fresh VRT - Working out the kinks

[Insan3Vr6]

Scroll to the bold if you don't wanna read:

Ok so i got my recently put together vr6 turbo running (obd2 mk3). Just trying to iron out some of the details before I feel comfortable driving it. My thread is here : http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...n3-s-GTI-Build

I think it's running rich, it smells of gas and I'm not totally sure when it's supposed to start building boost. It's a C2 30# tune. It's basically a modified kinetic stage 2 for those who are familiar. Few questions so I know I have this right. FYI there is NO COOLANT in the car, so I don't leave it running for very long.

This is a poorly drawn, crude, almost embarrassing rendering of my vacuum line setup. All good?


I'm also noticing some carbon buildup around coming from between the turbo and downpipe. Idle has significantly calmed down, but stays around 900RPM.

In Short

Are my vac lines good?
Any other reasons the car would run rich? IAT installed, MAF should be fine, c2 30# tune with injectors.

I just want to make sure the motor is good before I throw the front end on.

[vergessen wir es]

Assuming your ecu was reset it will take several minutes to both warn up and get out of warmup enrichment as well as adjust fuel trims.....longer than you can leave it run without coolant.

[Insan3Vr6]

Assuming your ecu was reset it will take several minutes to both warn up and get out of warmup enrichment as well as adjust fuel trims.....longer than you can leave it run without coolant.

I figured as much just wasn't totally sure, guess I can't hope for much when you run the car for less than 30 seconds at a time. All I did in regards to the ECU was leave it in accessory for about 10 minutes.

I'll have to hook up the radiator to see if I can get it to go through a full warmup cycle.

Any other thoughts?

[PjS860ct]

Wastegate goes to turbo or intercooler pipe before the throttle body... manifold works but over works the turbo at part throttle ...

[Insan3Vr6]

Wastegate goes to turbo or intercooler pipe before the throttle body... manifold works but over works the turbo at part throttle ...

Do you think this would cause an 'overboosting' problem the way mine is set up? I don't want to blow anything up, turbo has some shaft play if that means anything. PO of the wastegate and manifold said he ran the line from the manifold to the 'side port' on the wg (Tial 38mm), and the one on the top is open.

[Insan3Vr6]

Yeah...

[Capt.Dreadz]

Did anyone mention that the Wastegate vac line doesn't go to the intake.

Don't T the FPR. Just remove the WG line (& put it on the compressor side of the turbo) and plug the FPR in that spot. This way the BOV & FPR has it's own line.

[Insan3Vr6]

Did anyone mention that the Wastegate vac line doesn't go to the intake.

Don't T the FPR. Just remove the WG line (& put it on the compressor side of the turbo) and plug the FPR in that spot. This way the BOV & FPR has it's own line.

Nope, learning the turbo stuff as I go. The turbo doesn't have a vac fitting on it though? Do I have to make my own in a certain spot?

[Capt.Dreadz]

Nope, learning the turbo stuff as I go. The turbo doesn't have a vac fitting on it though? Do I have to make my own in a certain spot?

You can tap the turbo housing or the boost tube nearest to the housing. The reason why you want the FPR on its own line is because you want it to have a solid signal. If the BOV line goes, it won't take the most important line which is the FPR. Are you using a boost controller?

[Insan3Vr6]

You can tap the turbo housing or the boost tube nearest to the housing. The reason why you want the FPR on its own line is because you want it to have a solid signal. If the BOV line goes, it won't take the most important line which is the FPR. Are you using a boost controller?

No boost controller. Just the 6lb wastegate spring.

I do have an extra port I'm not using the on intake that I'm not using...That may be better suited than the T fitting.

Mainly I want to get the car to stop spewing black **** from the exhaust, which I assume is the cause of running rich, since it smells like gas, and make sure my vac lines are all good so I don't blow anything up.

[Capt.Dreadz]

No boost controller. Just the 6lb wastegate spring.

I do have an extra port I'm not using the on intake that I'm not using...That may be better suited than the T fitting.

Mainly I want to get the car to stop spewing black **** from the exhaust, which I assume is the cause of running rich, since it smells like gas, and make sure my vac lines are all good so I don't blow anything up.

Then you should have a vac line from the lower port on the WG to the comp. side of the turbo. The top port on the WG stays open.

I didn't notice if you mentioned it but do you have a wideband gauge? There's no real way of knowing how rich you really are. What bar FPR do you have?

[Insan3Vr6]

No wideband yet. I do have a narrowband I haven't hooked up yet. I'm hoping it's just because the car hasn't done a full warmup cycle to adjust the fuel?

3.0bar fpr

[cabzilla]

if you can afford a turbo vr, you can afford a wideband. Ive been saying this since 2003.

[Capt.Dreadz]

if you can afford a turbo vr, you can afford a wideband. Ive been saying this since 2003.

I totally agree with the old timer above...

Without a w/b, everything would be a guess. Without knowing exactly where your a/f's are at during idle & throughout the rev, we can't say what it is. The level of rich/lean can tell us alot. It could look like its running rich but actually be leaned out. Narrowband has no place in a turbo application (unless you're using it via standalone for datalogging purposes).


FYI, my car does the same when its cold. It runs at 13 till it warms up. Then it drops to 14.7 It also sputters a bit. It's the nature of the software. As long as your a/f's are within spec & its running fine when warm, you're good. My a/f's are spot on. Both at idle & throughout the rev.

Also, if you're using the old oxygen sensor, swap in a new one. You want your ECU to get a fresh signal. It's a do or die thing but every bit counts.

[Insan3Vr6]

I totally agree with the old timer above...

Without a w/b, everything would be a guess. Without knowing exactly where your a/f's are at during idle & throughout the rev, we can't say what it is. The level of rich/lean can tell us alot. It could look like its running rich but actually be leaned out. Narrowband has no place in a turbo application (unless you're using it via standalone for datalogging purposes).


FYI, my car does the same when its cold. It runs at 13 till it warms up. Then it drops to 14.7 It also sputters a bit. It's the nature of the software. As long as your a/f's are within spec & its running fine when warm, you're good. My a/f's are spot on. Both at idle & throughout the rev.

Also, if you're using the old oxygen sensor, swap in a new one. You want your ECU to get a fresh signal. It's a do or die thing but every bit counts.

Ok so this is pretty much leaning towards my theory of needing to let the car warm up before making any further conclusions. I had my narrowband WAY before I decided to go turbo, and figured something was better than nothing. I was also between jobs when I finally got the motor started, so I was trying to make things work with what I had.

My new job starts this week, so I can get the other stuff I need come payday.

I will absolutely be getting a wideband (recommendations?), just haven't gotten there yet, and the 02 sensor I have in there was new about a two years ago, and I haven't had any problems with it. Widebands come with the necessary 02 sensor correct? Might as well kill two birds with one stone.....

Still learning the ins and outs on the turbo stuff. Awesome help so far

Doesn't VAG COM read the fuel trims? I have the 'lite' version...

[Capt.Dreadz]

VAG-com only will give you a narrowband reading. Narrowband is just that..narrow. If your car dips down to say 10.5, the narrowband won't go that far down. Same if it were rich as it doesn't go as high. IIRC, n/b measures between 12-16 while w/b measures 10-20.

As far as which one to get, i would do some reasearch. There are alot of good ones on the market. Its just a matter of finding the one that suits you. It took me a month to find the right w/b. I went with a Innovate MTX-L. My first choice was a PLX DM600 but i got the MTX-L for a great deal. I had a cheap GloShift w/b gauge before that which worked fine. I just needed more features then it had.


I hear you on trying to make what you had work. It happens to most of us. I was at that point in my build except i got into a bad 4 wheeler accident which put me outta work (and ultimately ended my career).

What plugs are you running & @ what gap?

[Insan3Vr6]

Yeah I've been reading up on a few. I was looking at the AEM UEGO w/b or the Zeitronics Zt-2 setup - IDK If i want an LCD screen just hanging out in my car though. I'll keep researching.

Sucks about the accident

I'm running NGK BKR7E's at whatever gap they came with, so I think it's .032

[JoHnsVrT]

Like previous people said wastegate to turbo fitting not to manifold. Aem Uego is great thats what im running no complaints i wouldnt drive the car until having a wideband it can save you some headaches you dont want to deal with.

[JoHnsVrT]

Also that gap is to large you want to be at .21 .22 depending what your car likes better

[Insan3Vr6]

Like previous people said wastegate to turbo fitting not to manifold. Aem Uego is great thats what im running no complaints i wouldnt drive the car until having a wideband it can save you some headaches you dont want to deal with.

Also that gap is to large you want to be at .21 .22 depending what your car likes better

Yeah I guess I'll have to make my own fitting somewhere, because the PO had the WG hooked up to the manifold...What issues would I run into by leaving it on the manifold? Someone above said it would work but 'overwork' the turbo?

I'll have to take the plugs out and gap them, didn't know I had to do that when the plugs were recommended to me.

[mike minnillo]

This is how I have my vacuum stuff routed.



the issue referred to about "overworking" the turbo is pretty simple. through the length of piping going from the turbo, through the intercooler, and to the throttle body, its a given that there will be some boost pressure that is lost. typically, its a small amount, maybe 1 or 2 psi. so, while your wastegate spring will need 6 psi to open, to make 6 psi at the manifold, your turbo may have to actually make 7 or 8 psi. also, its best to have as direct of a route as possible between the compressor and the WG to alleviate any issues with lag between the turbo and the manifold.

[Insan3Vr6]

Awesome, that's extremely helpful. I was thinking about getting myself a vacuum block to 'organize' things a bit more down the road. Appreciate the diagram

I don't have a boost controller, just the wastegate. I have a bunch of extra vac fittings laying around I can probably fit somewhere.

[Capt.Dreadz]

This is how I have my vacuum stuff routed.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...acuumsetup.jpg

I also use a vacuum block. only difference to yours is my FPR goes to the intake & i'm using the top port on my WG....and no evap.

[Insan3Vr6]

I also use a vacuum block. only difference to yours is my FPR goes to the intake & i'm using the top port on my WG....and no evap.

Do you have a cel for your evap? I want all the **** out of my way if I can do it without a CEL. And I thought the top port of the WG is supposed to be vented or recirculated somewhere?

[Insan3Vr6]

Well I finally got everything buttoned up and running.


But my brake pedal falls right to the floor when I hit them, and the car almost stalls out for lack of vaccum. I bled them and there is NO air the lines. Master cylinder was fine before I took the car apart, so it makes me think it's a vaccum thing, but the only line I see involving the brakes is the one going to the brake booster, which is attached.

Any ideas?

[dubinsincuwereindiapers]

Well I finally got everything buttoned up and running.


But my brake pedal falls right to the floor when I hit them, and the car almost stalls out for lack of vaccum. I bled them and there is NO air the lines. Master cylinder was fine before I took the car apart, so it makes me think it's a vaccum thing, but the only line I see involving the brakes is the one going to the brake booster, which is attached.

Any ideas?

If you used a soft line to the brake booster; it may be collapsing on you. I had this happen on a high speed run in my 1.8t after I rerouted/deleted a bunch of schit. I had to hit the shoulder on the highway to avoid rearending another motorist

[Insan3Vr6]

It's the OEM ends to the booster (hard line) everything else is just regular rubber hose

[dubinsincuwereindiapers]

It's the OEM ends to the booster (hard line) everything else is just regular rubber hose

So you cut the OEM hard line, and clamped regular rubber hose to it? If so.. Thats your problem. If not you have a HUGE vacuum leak somewhere else..

[Insan3Vr6]

So you cut the OEM hard line, and clamped regular rubber hose to it? If so.. Thats your problem. If not you have a HUGE vacuum leak somewhere else..

I didn't cut anything. It uses the OEM hardline to attach to the booster, with the check valve on it, and then it goes to a rubber hose and into the intake manifold. I had to do it this way because I converted to a short runner. The intake and the hose were given to me by the PO and he never had any problems with it.

It doesn't matter if the car is on or off they feel the same so I'm starting to think vacuum is not the issue, but idk.

[Insan3Vr6]

I also don't think I have a vac leak 1. because everything is hooked up and 2. because my gauge says so.

[dubinsincuwereindiapers]

I didn't cut anything. It uses the OEM hardline to attach to the booster, with the check valve on it, and then it goes to a rubber hose and into the intake manifold. I had to do it this way because I converted to a short runner. The intake and the hose were given to me by the PO and he never had any problems with it.

It doesn't matter if the car is on or off they feel the same so I'm starting to think vacuum is not the issue, but idk.

The rubber hose is collapsing.. trust me, I didn't think it was possible either. Use a firmer piece of hose from the hardline to the intake manifold, and make sure the check valve(s) are installed in the correct orientation.

[Capt.Dreadz]

If that is when the engine is warm, you have a small leak. It should read 20hg when warm....unless you're running a cam. Brakes have nothing to do with your vacuum line.....unless you forgot to install the rubber gasket on the back of the brake booster. MC's can go just by letting it sit out with no fluid.

ftw, i did the samething, using rubber line on the OEM plug (that goes in the brake booster) and i've no problems.

[dubinsincuwereindiapers]

If that is when the engine is warm, you have a small leak. It should read 20hg when warm....unless you're running a cam. Brakes have nothing to do with your vacuum line.....unless you forgot to install the rubber gasket on the back of the brake booster. MC's can go just by letting it sit out with no fluid.

ftw, i did the samething, using rubber line on the OEM plug (that goes in the brake booster) and i've no problems.

Then why did I lose my brakes when the line was collapsing on my car?

After the incident I had; you could physically see the line collapse under vacuum, and the brake pedal got hard as a rock; you couldn't push it in.

Your wrong on this one dreadz. Im nit speculating; I've EXPERIENCED IT FIRST HAND

[Capt.Dreadz]

I understand what you're saying but you're not understanding what he's saying......if that makes sense. You're right though, if he had used the stock plastic line, it would've collapsed.

He remove the hardline from the plastic 90* plug that goes into the BB hole & replaced it with a rubber hose. In my case i used fuel inj. hose.

Edit: Here you can see my hose just below the main plug. That goes from BB to intake with a T going to the vac port (which feeds the EBC, Gauge & w/m)

[dubinsincuwereindiapers]

I understand what you're saying but you're not understanding what he's saying......if that makes sense. You're right though, if he had used the stock plastic line, it would've collapsed.

He remove the hardline from the plastic 90* plug that goes into the BB hole & replaced it with a rubber hose. In my case i used fuel inj. hose.

I get it dude; as I did the same thing as him. I used a piece of hose that was too flimsy, I later replaced it with a piece of fuel line like you used, and all was well.

There's not too many things it can be; assuming that it worked before