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    Thread: No S4 Avant, no A4 Avant, now no A3 Sportback?!?! WTF Audi?

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      02-03-2012 03:24 PM #1
      I know this is a tired topic, but WTF does Audi want me to drive these days. I need a hatch. I want something sportier than a Q5. So I guess I'll be driving a 2007 S4 Avant until Audi gets a new CEO?

    2. Member Travis Grundke's Avatar
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      02-04-2012 11:16 AM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by xtemperedx View Post
      I know this is a tired topic, but WTF does Audi want me to drive these days. I need a hatch. I want something sportier than a Q5. So I guess I'll be driving a 2007 S4 Avant until Audi gets a new CEO?
      More likely until consumers start demanding wagons/hatches in larger volume. With a sales volume of only ~100,000 units per year in North America, Audi of America cannot afford to bring every single niche model to these shores.

      The current plan is for an A3 sedan, which should sell in *far* greater numbers than the Sportback has, plus to bring the Q3 to effectively take the place of the A3 Sportback. There is still a very small outside chance we may get the A3 Sportback, but were I a betting man I'd put it on an A3 sedan and a Q3.

    3. 02-04-2012 11:06 PM #3
      Would sales of the A3 sedan take away from sales of the 4 other 4-door sedan models, though, or are these customers who would not be purchasing an audi otherwise? I'm sure the Q3 must be a success and offering a 4-door hatch A3 would be detrimental to a successful Q3 line.

    4. Member Travis Grundke's Avatar
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      02-05-2012 09:20 AM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
      Would sales of the A3 sedan take away from sales of the 4 other 4-door sedan models, though, or are these customers who would not be purchasing an audi otherwise? I'm sure the Q3 must be a success and offering a 4-door hatch A3 would be detrimental to a successful Q3 line.
      One of the advantages of the new MQB and MLB architectures is that Audi/Volkswagen can introduce niche products far more affordably to take advantage of market preferences and smaller segments. Case in point, the A5 Sportback which essentially gives you the look of the A5/S5 but with the greater functionality of the traditional A4 sedan. Same can be said for the A7, which may draw a few sales from the A6 and A8, but likely will help drive additional sales instead of cannibalizing.

      In the case of the A3 sedan, just based on the interior design language we saw at CES, the car is clearly targeted at a different demographic than is the traditional A4. The A4 will be larger, more traditional and appeal to a different market segment than the A3. It's always possible that A3 sedan sales may steal from A4 sales, but as Steve Jobs said of the iPhone stealing sales from the iPod line: so long as we're cannibalizing ourselves, Apple doesn't care.

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      02-05-2012 06:28 PM #5
      All of these are good points, but they don't help me get my surfboard to the beach without having to use a roof rack.

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      02-06-2012 09:46 AM #6
      I was at the Philly Auto Show this past weekend and was surprised at the number of people looking at the A3. At one point, I had to wait a little while to check it out because there were so many people around it. I disappointed a few folks when I told them there are no plans for a hatch for the revised A3. Maybe AoA will reconsider.

    7. Member Travis Grundke's Avatar
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      02-06-2012 01:55 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Dennis M View Post
      I was at the Philly Auto Show this past weekend and was surprised at the number of people looking at the A3. At one point, I had to wait a little while to check it out because there were so many people around it. I disappointed a few folks when I told them there are no plans for a hatch for the revised A3. Maybe AoA will reconsider.
      There's still an outside chance that they will retain it. My gut is that if they run into production delays for the sedan they will introduce the Sportback to fill the void.

    8. 02-22-2012 02:03 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by xtemperedx View Post
      I know this is a tired topic, but WTF does Audi want me to drive these days. I need a hatch. I want something sportier than a Q5. So I guess I'll be driving a 2007 S4 Avant until Audi gets a new CEO?
      Can't even get the A5 Sportbak

    9. Member KnockKnock's Avatar
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      02-22-2012 10:58 PM #9
      The A4 Avant exists in a way through the A4 Allroad. I agree with the above posting, that the SportBack won't make it due to the Q3. They haven't said NEVER. But if the A3 sedan does 30K units/yr, and the Q3 does another 20K, then sure, maybe they can bring the SportBack.

      Right now the whole A3 line (sportback) is doing less than 10K units/yr. That ain't a lot of demand. Kick and scream as much as you want, but business is business.

    10. Member dmorrow's Avatar
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      02-23-2012 09:03 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by KnockKnock View Post
      The A4 Avant exists in a way through the A4 Allroad. I agree with the above posting, that the SportBack won't make it due to the Q3. They haven't said NEVER. But if the A3 sedan does 30K units/yr, and the Q3 does another 20K, then sure, maybe they can bring the SportBack.

      Right now the whole A3 line (sportback) is doing less than 10K units/yr. That ain't a lot of demand. Kick and scream as much as you want, but business is business.
      I agree, with the A3 sedan, unless it is huge hit, there is a lot of risk in bringing the sportback also. I assume that some of the potential sportback buyers will get the sedan and the potential for the sportback may be less than the current model.

      They decide to bring models hear they can make money with and I could see a business case for not bringing the sportback. A4 Avants, BMW wagons, Mercedes wagons don't exactly fly out of the dealership. Some like Audi's Allroad and Subaru's Outback give them the offroad look to help them look less like wagons.

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      02-25-2012 02:55 AM #11
      I thought one of the goals of the current gen A3 Sportback was to bring new, young buyers into the brand. So, they brought me into the brand, but are not going to offer anything that I could step up into. No A5 Sportback. No A4 Avant. No A3 Sportback.

      And the Q3 doesn't cut it. I've seen it, sat in it, studied it. First, it's not off the MQB. It's exterior is not especially attractive. And the packaging of the back row and trunk area are relatively tight.

      It looks like bye bye Audi

    12. 02-26-2012 07:18 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post
      I agree, with the A3 sedan, unless it is huge hit, there is a lot of risk in bringing the sportback also. I assume that some of the potential sportback buyers will get the sedan and the potential for the sportback may be less than the current model.

      They decide to bring models hear they can make money with and I could see a business case for not bringing the sportback. A4 Avants, BMW wagons, Mercedes wagons don't exactly fly out of the dealership. Some like Audi's Allroad and Subaru's Outback give them the offroad look to help them look less like wagons.
      yes, there is a lot of risk in offering a sportback version of the A3, since just offering a sedan version wouldn't alienate or turn-off the thousands of loyal Audi a3 customers that liked their cars and want to replace them with a new model. I'm sure they won't get angry and go looking at Mini's or Fiats or the new Volvo V40 (like my wife who otherwise loves her A3 hatch is doing right now).

      Becuase, hey, let's face it, Americans don't like hatches, that why brands like Mini could NEVER survive selling just hatchbacks, and even if htey could, they'd just be low-end models that aren't optioned to the hilt with lucrative shiny bits. (If this doesn't drip with sarcasm in your ears, then you probably are a good fit for the Audi of America product development group.)

      And that new BMW 328 wagon that doesn't sell? BMW just re-stated that they will keep bringing it over. Something about caring about a small but loyal contingent of customers who demand a wagon. The fact that it goes from 0-60 about half a tick slower that an S4, gets 36 mpg, and can be had with a proper stick shifted transmission doesn't hurt, either.

      Audi has it's headgasket shoved up it's tailpipe lately with product offerings. Good thing Audi spends all that time and money on the fancy headlights, I bet they look great in the competition's rear view mirror.

    13. 02-26-2012 11:04 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by michA3er View Post
      It looks like bye bye Audi
      I don't think Audi really cares. They are doing the same thing with manual transmissions in the product range. VW is doing the same thing too. They are exchanging the smaller volume brand loyalist and enthusiast customers for higher volume customers in the fatter middle of the market where the profits are better. They are probably resigned to the fact that they are going to loose some of the former to gain more of the latter. At some point, I'll be looking for an alternative for both brands as they begin to no longer build products I'd like to own.

      You're collateral damage.

    14. 02-26-2012 11:14 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by xtemperedx View Post
      I know this is a tired topic, but WTF does Audi want me to drive these days. I need a hatch. I want something sportier than a Q5. So I guess I'll be driving a 2007 S4 Avant until Audi gets a new CEO?
      They want you to drive whatever they decide build and not necessarily what you want.
      Last edited by VR6Now; 02-26-2012 at 01:39 PM.

    15. Member dmorrow's Avatar
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      02-26-2012 07:19 PM #15
      There are all kinds of models and variations they could bring and they do make decisions on what they think will be profitable, what company doesn't.

      They could bring 5 door/sedan, FWD/AWD, manual/DSG, gas/diesel, two trim levels of each, and now they have 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 32 different cars without bringing colors or any other stand alone options in the mix. Since most in the U.S. won't deal with ordering cars and waiting for months to get them, and dealers won't stock 32 A3's (even if all one color) which ones should they build to maximize profits? No matter what they decide some won't be happy and will buy other cars. Also, each variation adds to the production costs of all of them.

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      02-28-2012 02:02 AM #16
      I will have to wait and see if BMW is still willing to offer proper 6 speed manual in the new F31 wagon. If that is the case, that car will be most likely my A3's replacement, unless Audi decides to bring the hatchback here (with manual transmission and quattro. FWD is doable but I would still prefer AWD here in CO.). Honestly new A3 hatchback would be perfect in size (~ 172 in?). I like smaller vehicles for parallel parking.
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      02-28-2012 11:09 PM #17
      I'm starting to think Wagons are becoming more popular, its just the data isn't showing it yet. And the reason wagons aren't popular at the moment is because the American options to choose from when going for a wagon are Volvo Subaru, BMW, mercedes.

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      03-04-2012 09:48 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by KnockKnock View Post
      Right now the whole A3 line (sportback) is doing less than 10K units/yr. That ain't a lot of demand. Kick and scream as much as you want, but business is business.
      Perhaps the poor sales were due to the fact that it was outdated compared to the rest of the lineup. I passed on it three years ago because of this but would have bought the new one next year for sure if they hadn't killed the Sportback version.

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      03-05-2012 03:29 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by VR6Now View Post
      I don't think Audi really cares. They are doing the same thing with manual transmissions in the product range. VW is doing the same thing too. They are exchanging the smaller volume brand loyalist and enthusiast customers for higher volume customers in the fatter middle of the market where the profits are better. They are probably resigned to the fact that they are going to loose some of the former to gain more of the latter. At some point, I'll be looking for an alternative for both brands as they begin to no longer build products I'd like to own.

      You're collateral damage.
      There's no doubt these product decisions are mainly driven by wanting higher profits. The Q3 should be quite profitable for Audi since it is built off of an older platform and is being assembled in lower-wage Spain.

      However, if Audi hopes to achieve their 200k/year sales goal they can't afford the "collateral damage" of losing buyers they once had. To say the A3 Sportback didn't sell in high enough volumes is a little disingenuous considering they never really marketed it in the U.S., mainly because European sales pretty much consumed the full production volume. Unless Audi has increase production capacity for the new A3 I can't imagine they have allotted much more volume to the U.S. over Europe.

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      03-05-2012 03:35 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post
      There are all kinds of models and variations they could bring and they do make decisions on what they think will be profitable, what company doesn't.

      They could bring 5 door/sedan, FWD/AWD, manual/DSG, gas/diesel, two trim levels of each, and now they have 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 32 different cars without bringing colors or any other stand alone options in the mix. Since most in the U.S. won't deal with ordering cars and waiting for months to get them, and dealers won't stock 32 A3's (even if all one color) which ones should they build to maximize profits? No matter what they decide some won't be happy and will buy other cars. Also, each variation adds to the production costs of all of them.
      I would buy the general gist of your argument if it weren't for the fact that you can configure an A3 in Germany a bazillion different ways and Audi apparently still makes a decent profit. Of course, most Germans are willing to wait on an order to get exactly what they want.

    21. Member dmorrow's Avatar
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      03-05-2012 09:57 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by michA3er View Post
      I would buy the general gist of your argument if it weren't for the fact that you can configure an A3 in Germany a bazillion different ways and Audi apparently still makes a decent profit. Of course, most Germans are willing to wait on an order to get exactly what they want.
      I see close to zero chance in them ceritifiying all possible configurations and making them order only choices.

      For those that want the 5 door I still think the problem is they only say they want the 5 door which seems simple until you say - is the FWD, DSG, Diesel ok? Or is it the AWD, DSG, Diesel? Or the AWD gas, DSG? Or the FWD, manual, diesel? or the.....

      Once you start looking at all the combinations, if they bring the 5 door (no chance at all possible configurations), some won't be happy.

    22. 03-06-2012 07:30 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post
      I see close to zero chance in them ceritifiying all possible configurations and making them order only choices.

      For those that want the 5 door I still think the problem is they only say they want the 5 door which seems simple until you say - is the FWD, DSG, Diesel ok? Or is it the AWD, DSG, Diesel? Or the AWD gas, DSG? Or the FWD, manual, diesel? or the.....

      Once you start looking at all the combinations, if they bring the 5 door (no chance at all possible configurations), some won't be happy.
      the debate always rounds down to how many cars of a particualr variant does Audi need to sell to be profitable or break even. You know what the answer is? the answer is no one cares, they just go shop elsewhere. See, here's how it works:

      My wife has a 2006 A3 She loves it, but it's long in tooth and we've been waiting for the new A3 to come out. Audi dropped the sportback, so now she's looking at either the BMW 3 series wagon (with a stick), or that jaw-droppingly hot Mercedes A Class hatch that hit the floor in Geneva yesterday. Have you even seen that thing? It makes the new A3 look 4 years old just by sitting next to it.

      Now we can resume the debate about homolgation costs to the consumer. Oh, wait... the consumer already left the showroom, nevermind.

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      03-06-2012 11:27 AM #23
      I understand the argument about not being able to offer every version. I'll take a 5door quattro manual diesel, please. But for some buyers (like me) 5-door with anything >>>>> sedan with whatever. I bought a 3.2Q even though it wasn't available in manual.

      Some options are more important to offer than others, and I'd argue that a 5-door option for the A3 is about as important as anything else.

    24. Member dmorrow's Avatar
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      03-06-2012 05:09 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by FractureCritical View Post
      the debate always rounds down to how many cars of a particualr variant does Audi need to sell to be profitable or break even. You know what the answer is? the answer is no one cares, they just go shop elsewhere. See, here's how it works:

      My wife has a 2006 A3 She loves it, but it's long in tooth and we've been waiting for the new A3 to come out. Audi dropped the sportback, so now she's looking at either the BMW 3 series wagon (with a stick), or that jaw-droppingly hot Mercedes A Class hatch that hit the floor in Geneva yesterday. Have you even seen that thing? It makes the new A3 look 4 years old just by sitting next to it.

      Now we can resume the debate about homolgation costs to the consumer. Oh, wait... the consumer already left the showroom, nevermind.
      Producing everything for everyone isn't going to happen and I am sure they realize it will cause them to lose some customers. Right now some complain about not having the AWD diesel or the AWD gas manual and I am sure this caused them to lose some customers. Time will tell where they decide to draw the line.

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      03-10-2012 09:36 AM #25
      I looked at used A3s when I thought I'd need to replace my GTI. I thought the next A3 would be my next car some years from now when my beloved GTI does bite the dust. But Audi's decided that I, as a hatchback/wagon buyer, am "collateral damage". I can't even pay a bit more to get a nice A4 avant anymore.

      I don't want a small SUV option. I want the option of a car.

      Oh, hey, BMW has decided that it's going to deliberately support wagon buyers like me even though there aren't as many of us. Hey, look, those of us who want practicality and like the wagon/estate style like to know we're appreciated. Hey, look, once we form a lasting bond with a carmaker we're likely to return to that carmarker -- as long as they make what we want.

      Hey, look, there's an AWD version, if I want.

      Hey, look, I can have it delivered to me in Germany. Nice vacation. I've wanted to go there for a while now.

      Hello, 328 AWD wagon.

      Goodbye, Audi. Goodbye, decontented VW.


    26. Member dmorrow's Avatar
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      03-10-2012 10:21 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Buran View Post
      I looked at used A3s when I thought I'd need to replace my GTI. I thought the next A3 would be my next car some years from now when my beloved GTI does bite the dust. But Audi's decided that I, as a hatchback/wagon buyer, am "collateral damage". I can't even pay a bit more to get a nice A4 avant anymore.

      I don't want a small SUV option. I want the option of a car.

      Oh, hey, BMW has decided that it's going to deliberately support wagon buyers like me even though there aren't as many of us. Hey, look, those of us who want practicality and like the wagon/estate style like to know we're appreciated. Hey, look, once we form a lasting bond with a carmaker we're likely to return to that carmarker -- as long as they make what we want.

      Hey, look, there's an AWD version, if I want.

      Hey, look, I can have it delivered to me in Germany. Nice vacation. I've wanted to go there for a while now.

      Hello, 328 AWD wagon.

      Goodbye, Audi. Goodbye, decontented VW.

      From looking at BMW's site it looks like the 328i AWD Manual wagon starts at $40,395 (includes Destination).

      The A3 AWD starts at $31,725 (includes Destination).

      Maybe I missed something but it looks like different price points.

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      03-10-2012 12:45 PM #27
      If there is no A3 that I am willing to buy, then there's no point in comparing at all, is there? Audi won't even have a price point by then for me to look at.

      I still could get a non-AWD small wagon from BMW, a vehicle that Audi is no longer willing to sell me. (Whether or not any fully-loaded -- tech packages, nav, the works) used A3s will be on the market by then is unknown. I sure couldn't find much in the way of options when I thought my black-ice crunch back in January had probably totalled my all-options 2007 GTI).

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      03-10-2012 03:12 PM #28
      This sucks so much. :-(
      VWoA/AoA: Hatch (Golf R) or Sportback (S3) or Avant (B9 S4)

    29. 03-13-2012 07:46 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post
      Producing everything for everyone isn't going to happen and I am sure they realize it will cause them to lose some customers. Right now some complain about not having the AWD diesel or the AWD gas manual and I am sure this caused them to lose some customers. Time will tell where they decide to draw the line.
      No, they don't realize it. They just think that people will suck it up and buy the sedan. IF Audi truly understood that thousands of otherwise happy current sportback customers were pissed that they couldn't replace their cars, don't you think that they'd make it? Audi sells that rediculous A7 in pittifully small numbers every month and they're still bringing over the S7, which will sell in the teens, if they're lucky.

      This isn't Audi being clever or realistic, it's Audi being stupid and driving customers away to Mini and BMW where such things can be had.

    30. Member dmorrow's Avatar
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      03-13-2012 09:15 AM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by FractureCritical View Post
      No, they don't realize it. They just think that people will suck it up and buy the sedan. IF Audi truly understood that thousands of otherwise happy current sportback customers were pissed that they couldn't replace their cars, don't you think that they'd make it? Audi sells that rediculous A7 in pittifully small numbers every month and they're still bringing over the S7, which will sell in the teens, if they're lucky.

      This isn't Audi being clever or realistic, it's Audi being stupid and driving customers away to Mini and BMW where such things can be had.
      You and they may have differing opinions about how many customers they will lose but I guarantee that they understand that with fewer variations the potential market goes down. I am sure they made a decision to bring over the TDI based on projections of how many it would sell. Every business out there understands this. Your local donut shop doesn't want to make 40 different kinds of donuts (and throw away some of each), they do it to increase sales. It's crazy to think that if they don't bring the A3 5 door that all of these customers will go to the 4 door.

      If you are right, why don't they bring over the 3 door? They don't realize that some people would buy it that aren't currently buying the 5 door?

      YTD the A7 (Jan. & Feb) the A7 is selling in greater numbers than the A3 and I am sure they make much more profit per car for the A7. Maybe one A7 equals the profit for three A3's?

      From here http://www.quattroholic.com/2012/03/...bruary-us.html

      A7 - 1227 YTD A3- 1054 YTD. Last year, same time period, A3 - 1101 so it isn't a sudden drop for the A3. Now bring over both variations and numbers would go up but by how much?

    31. 03-14-2012 12:55 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post
      If you are right, why don't they bring over the 3 door? They don't realize that some people would buy it that aren't currently buying the 5 door?

      YTD the A7 (Jan. & Feb) the A7 is selling in greater numbers than the A3 and I am sure they make much more profit per car for the A7. Maybe one A7 equals the profit for three A3's?

      From here http://www.quattroholic.com/2012/03/...bruary-us.html

      A7 - 1227 YTD A3- 1054 YTD. Last year, same time period, A3 - 1101 so it isn't a sudden drop for the A3. Now bring over both variations and numbers would go up but by how much?
      The A7 may be the single greatest flop of the brand. 1227 A7's? that's pathetic. Last time I took my car in for service, my dealer had 11 of them on the lot. that's over $1M in inventory just sitting and bleeding the dealer of interest payments. Funny how Audi never talks about that part, huh? Don't you also find it just a little funny that Audi sells only handful more A7's after spending MILLIONS in marketing the thing, (there go your profits!) while the little A3, which doesn't even get a picture on a milk carton in terms of advertizing investment, sells just as well.

      The A3 is realtively cheap to put on the lot, and the CAR TYPE is a proven seller. BMW sells tons of Minis! Let's be honest here: Audi just plain sucks at selling anything that isn't a white/black/grey SUV or sedan. When confronted with something that doesn't fit that mold, they change it to fit.

    32. 03-14-2012 09:39 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post
      YTD the A7 (Jan. & Feb) the A7 is selling in greater numbers than the A3 and I am sure they make much more profit per car for the A7. Maybe one A7 equals the profit for three A3's?
      Could the sales numbers of the A7s to A3s have something to do with supply. Me thinks yes. Cars.com shows 1258 A7s and only 583 A3s nationwide. Cars.com doesn't represent all U.S. inventory but I'd bet the proportions are correct. You can't sell what you don't have. Also, the new A7 better be out pacing a car that's only had minor updates in the course of six years.

      My local dealer has no A3s whatsoever and quite a few A7s.

    33. Member tincanman99's Avatar
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      03-15-2012 03:57 AM #33
      I am NOT interested in an A3 sedan. As it was when I bought my A3 in 2007 the sales guy pushed me to the A4. What part of I dont want a sedan do they not understand.

      My A3 is loaded and easily cost as much as an A4 but the driving experience is very different. Its a smaller car and drives like a smaller car. The A4 has become a quite large car now, its hardly a compact sedan.

      Frankly I dont see the A3 sedan selling huge numbers for the simple fact that if the price is almost the same as the A4 and the A3 is smaller than the A4 who will want it? Its the same issue with the BMW 1 series.

      That being said if there is no A3 hatch I will just buy a GTI or a Mini. I have 0 interest in Audi's sedans.

      If Audi wants to alienate the enthusiast segment in exchange for the broader market to make more $$ than go for it. Just remember the enthusiast market is what kept your brand alive when you were in the hole. To the general public, Audi is another Lexus.

    34. 03-15-2012 09:29 AM #34
      Personally, I don't think there is room in the line up for both the Q3 and A3 5dr if they decided to bring more than the 2.5TFSI over. A Q3 TDI or 2.0 TSI would overlap with the A3 in a market where cute-utes are growing in sales and wagons are fading.

      As the A4 moves up in price, it does make some room for another sedan which do sell better in the states.
      Last edited by VR6Now; 03-15-2012 at 09:34 AM.

    35. Member
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      03-15-2012 09:04 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by tincanman99 View Post
      I am NOT interested in an A3 sedan. As it was when I bought my A3 in 2007 the sales guy pushed me to the A4. What part of I dont want a sedan do they not understand.

      My A3 is loaded and easily cost as much as an A4 but the driving experience is very different. Its a smaller car and drives like a smaller car. The A4 has become a quite large car now, its hardly a compact sedan.

      Frankly I dont see the A3 sedan selling huge numbers for the simple fact that if the price is almost the same as the A4 and the A3 is smaller than the A4 who will want it? Its the same issue with the BMW 1 series.

      That being said if there is no A3 hatch I will just buy a GTI or a Mini. I have 0 interest in Audi's sedans.


      If Audi wants to alienate the enthusiast segment in exchange for the broader market to make more $$ than go for it. Just remember the enthusiast market is what kept your brand alive when you were in the hole. To the general public, Audi is another Lexus.
      Right on the money!!

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