A/C system: Retrofit or recharge? '87 16V

[Scirocco16]

Hey guys, the seller of my new '87 Scirocco 16v says the A/C system needs recharging. A/C will be pretty much a necessity here in ks this summer, i imagine.
I want to do it right, but the cheapest way possible.
I don't know if i can find a way to simply recharge the system without taking out the r-12?

The right way, i suppose would be to have it recovered/evacuated and retrofit all the o-rings and adapters with a kit like this. http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volks.../Climate/362/1
-then replace the receiver/drier, and charge it with r134a and an oil charge from the auto parts store?

am I correct? I've heard you can buy retrofit kits where you just put in some special oil to "recondition" the o-rings for r134 instead of replacing them?

[BluDemon]

When I bought my car the AC didn't work so I just tossed some R134 into the system to see if it would kick on. It did and ran cold for a few weeks until it leaked out that's when I decided to tear into the system.

Found the leaks, replaced the condenser, dryer and seals then took it to Firestone for a vacuum test and recharge. Been good for the last few years

[Scirocco16]

It looks like that's probably what i'm going to do. Is it absolutely necessary to replace the condenser? Do I need to buy a kit like I linked to in the first post, or is there a cheaper way to replace seals?

[BluDemon]

It looks like that's probably what i'm going to do. Is it absolutely necessary to replace the condenser? Do I need to buy a kit like I linked to in the first post, or is there a cheaper way to replace seals?

My condenser and AC lines were rusted that's why I had them replaced. The seal kit looks pretty good. I'm not sure what BFI used when they put my system back together but it's been tight ever since. I had a intermittent compressor issues a year or so ago and found the wires going to it were corroded so after a good cleaning and a little crimp it's been good.

The AC over all works OK but it's a struggle to cool a HOT car down the middle of the day. When I take long trips and start the AC early it will be nice and cold all day long.

[Scirocco16]

Thanks BluDemon! I hope when i start working on the system, i don't find too much rust.

Ok so i think what I'm going to do is replace the seals with the kit in my first post, replace the receiver/drier, and have someone pull a vacuum on it. Then I'll fill it with r134a from a can, and an oil charge.
I have a few cans of r134a in the basement that we were going to use in my truck, that i think will work great.

Is this the right procedure?
Does anyone know of a cheaper way?

[echassin]

Whenever sellers say "it just needs a charge" it'd be safer to assume that what is meant is "the A/C leaks like a seive" and that you'll need to redo it.

the good news is it's not hard to DIY, but you'll need some skills and tools.

In my case the condenser was cracked, the compressor seal was leaking, and all the O-rings were hard.

I replaced every single O-ring with 134a compatible ones, found a compressor seal on E-Bay, used a Cabby condenser (more fins), new dryer, 6 oz of conversion oil, almost 2 cans of 12oz 134a, and a friend's gauge setup and vacuum pump.

It's still nice and cold after a few years, but don't set your expectations too high, my wife's SUV will keep ice cream frozen if you want

[87REDROCC]

get rid of it... lol less weight, less clutter and less parasitic drag on engine...imho

[Scirocco16]

Yeah, i'm really hoping seals is all it will need and i wont have to change the condenser, but... we'll see i guess.

87REDROCC- Lol i'd do that but we live in Kansas. I'm not looking forward to another summer without a/c; my current ride's ac doesn't work either.

[nickbukowy]

what is this AC you speak of, i use some thing called 2x50 air conditioning

[87REDROCC]

im in houston.... i was raised in salina btw...

[Scirocco16]

Well, we're south of salina bout an hour. Would you happen to know where Hillsboro is?

[87REDROCC]

Yeah. I sure do. I still have family in Salina and lindsborg

[Twinrocco's]

Check your area for a shop that has a license to do r-12 still its colder than r132. At best Sciroccs
don't blow super cold ,but it will do.

[Scirocco16]

I think i'm gonna check with the local shops, and see if they can do r12 and how the price will compare.

If i retrofit it, what kind of oil charge do i need to use? I'd be using this refrigerant, as i've got a few cans in the basement. http://idqusa.com/product/345/

[armenhaz]

Can the consenser be pressure tested for leaks? If so, at what PSI could a leak be detected?

[crazyaboutrocs]

It's easy and cheap to retrofit R134a if you have access to an air compressor.

http://www.driversfound.com/scirocco...dy/acretrofit/

Interesting. Great write up. How is it holding up so far?

[Scirocco16]

Interesting. Great write up. How is it holding up so far?

+1 awesome write up. I'm also interested to know how its holding up.
Is there a place online i could order those o rings for that price besides the dealer? our nearest dealer is about an hour away.

[crazyaboutrocs]

+1 awesome write up. I'm also interested to know how its holding up.
Is there a place online i could order those o rings for that price besides the dealer? our nearest dealer is about an hour away.

Just checked World Impex by typing in the first part number and they have it. Should be the same for the rest. GAP has a kit with tons of o-rings, but it's $35 and you'll have a lot of stuff you won't use.

[Scirocco16]

Doing the research on adding propane to the system instead of r12.

Seriously... Google it.

Now, you'll all probably say NO!!! Your car will die a fiery death!!! but seriously, think about it. What's maybe 12 or 16 ounces of propane compared to 14 gallons of gasoline?

And they say it's as good or better as a coolant than r12 is. In fact, they say it's used in a lot of european countries where they don't have all the government regulations.

Still, i'm open to you guys' advice about it.

[nickbukowy]

well i guess you you can say that now you can really go out with a bang

[Scirocco16]

yes, but only if i've got exactly the right propane/air mixture

[halkyardo]

I sincerely doubt the talk about how everybody in Europe uses propane as a refrigerant. I believe that it is used in air conditioners and refrigerators, but certainly not in cars. Government regulation is stronger over there, and from my experience, in most European countries, you have to be licensed to buy and handle refrigerants. Having, in the past, spent far too much time messing about with old cars in England and New Zealand, I've never come across anybody running propane in an automotive AC system.

The whole idea seems too risky to me. Sure, the combination of factors that would cause a fire hazard would be pretty rare, but I would still consider it more dangerous than a tank full of gas – your condenser is the first thing that'll be hit in a front-end accident, and it'll be coming into contact with a hot engine.

Sorry, but I'm extremely opinionated when it comes to the proper use of refrigerants. New Zealand, where I hail from, has been terribly affected by the damage to the ozone layer that is caused by CFCs such as refrigerants. As a result, it has, I believe, the highest skin cancer death rate in the world. Please, do it right.

/rant

[Scirocco16]

I may have changed my mind already, I'm not sure yet. First I'm gonna get the car running again, then worry about ac. I'll keep reading about the pros and cons of different options, and go with what seems smartest. thanks!

[oleblue]

DO NOT!!! use propane. I have had some experience working on freon recovery systems and propane is not the way to go.
I have talked to lots of people about converting R12 to R134 and in my experience it's really not that big of a deal.Seal and gasket problems have been overated.The reason for the oil change is there is still some R12 in the oil.Make sure the refridgerants don't get mixed. That can cause some real prssure problems as in excessive head pressures in the compressor.
I have converted to R134 from R12 and have had no issues.

[BluDemon]

First I'm gonna get the car running again, then worry about ac.

Well yes I think you're far from worrying about the AC if you car doesn't work.

I converted my car over 4 years ago and still working great.

[Scirocco16]

Yeah the car's been on jackstands more than 2 weeks now. I'm getting my header tomorrow so hopefully I get it put together this week.

I found some r12 so I may just try adding that to see if the compressor works at all. One mechanic told me it turned really hard and it might not work, so he didn't know if it would be worth converting it over without a new compressor. He isn't really an ac guy though, but he's done retrofits before.

[halkyardo]

\One mechanic told me it turned really hard and it might not work, so he didn't know if it would be worth converting it over without a new compressor.

As far as I know, it should be fairly stiff to turn – smooth, and free enough to turn by hand, but stiff. After all, it's compressing whatever's left of your refrigerant in there.

I got lucky – my problem was a bad connection in the AC relay. Soldered it up, and it was fine. It's low on refrigerant (I get bubbles in the sight glass), but it blows colder than the AC in my wife's Cabrio. I'm toying with the idea of converting it to R134a before it all leaks out (see my rant in my previous post), but for now, I'm just glad to have some cooling.

By the way, if you do need a compressor, let me know, I've got a spare kicking around somewhere.

EDIT: The compressor was from an 8v car. I presume that it's the same one as used in the 16v, though. It's the later type with the round casing.

[Scirocco16]

Well, I think it works. I added some r12 my grandpa sold me. He had it sitting in his garage and all his vehicles are new enough to use 134. I added almost 2 cans, but I may have to add some more. It didn't cool very well sitting and idling so I took it for a drive, and then it felt a lot cooler. I can't tell what I'm seeing in the sight glass for sure but the engine was starting to overheat from sitting there running so I'll check it again in a little while. I wish I had a pressure gauge that worked with this hose but all the ones i have are for 134a, I think.