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    Thread: Help please: bought a 20v quattro 90 sedan -- was scheptical but figured how bad could it be ,being a VW guy owning many mk1 mk2 vw? well..

    1. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-07-2012 09:57 PM #1
      so its a beautiful car starts right up but it seems slow as hell,went up a steep grade and i was mashed to the floor 3rd gear and barley held 55mph-- on the freeway im almost to the floor! 70mph what is going on? after my hill test i found that the fan is not functioning which was the reason for the test. I can probably figure out the fan but why is it so slow? and why does the throttle have to be depressed so far down. also things that are not functioning-- coolent temp guage and oil temp. is this related? ok This is why I dont want to just give up, see for yourself-----[IMG][/IMG]

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      02-09-2012 12:58 AM #2
      Hey, welcome to the world of Audi. I'm not sure how much help I can be directly, but at the very least I can provide you with a little back story on your car/engine, and maybe trigger some more knowledgable forum members to respond also.

      My first car was an MkII Jetta, so I'm familiar with the VW to Audi jump myself. I replaced that with a 1995 Audi 90 quattro. Now, as of 1992 the 80/90 entered what we in the Audi world call the B4 generation. Your's is a B3 (you may be familiar with this nomenclature, as VW used it on their Passat lineage as well). Mechanically, our cars are very similar, and share many parts. Unfortunately (for me) one major component the B4 90 did not share with the B3 was the engine options. Mine comes equipped with the 2.8L 12V V6 - A durable tank of an engine (mines well over 230,000 miles now) and fairly peppy, but one that suffers from a severe lack of aftermarket performance upgrades of any kind.

      Your engine, on the other hand, is one of the most revered of it's kind, made famous by the Audi Quattro S1 (UrQuatrro) and S2 Rally Champions for its incredible performance (when turbocharged) and durability. I am a little embarrassed to admit that I do not know as much about the 20v as I would like to, but if I'm not mistaken, the main problem with your engine is that it's not turbocharged. Engines designed to benefit greatly from a turbo, such as the 20v, are often sluggish when naturally aspirated. That is not to say that there isn't something wrong with yours right now, because it sounds like there is, but it could explain some of the sluggishness.

      I'm sure all of that wasn't terribly helpful, but this should be:

      www.20v.org

      ^That website is a wealth of information about your engine. Poke around there for a bit and I'm sure you'll find some of the answers you are looking for.

      I hope that helps. These cars can be a pain in the ass to work on sometimes, but they really are great vehicles. Don't give up. Good Luck!

    3. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-09-2012 01:10 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by JTG 1447 View Post
      Hey, welcome to the world of Audi. I'm not sure how much help I can be directly, but at the very least I can provide you with a little back story on your car/engine, and maybe trigger some more knowledgable forum members to respond also.

      My first car was an MkII Jetta, so I'm familiar with the VW to Audi jump myself. I replaced that with a 1995 Audi 90 quattro. Now, as of 1992 the 80/90 entered what we in the Audi world call the B4 generation. Your's is a B3 (you may be familiar with this nomenclature, as VW used it on their Passat lineage as well). Mechanically, our cars are very similar, and share many parts. Unfortunately (for me) one major component the B4 90 did not share with the B3 was the engine options. Mine comes equipped with the 2.8L 12V V6 - A durable tank of an engine (mines well over 230,000 miles now) and fairly peppy, but one that suffers from a severe lack of aftermarket performance upgrades of any kind.

      Your engine, on the other hand, is one of the most revered of it's kind, made famous by the Audi Quattro S1 (UrQuatrro) and S2 Rally Champions for its incredible performance (when turbocharged) and durability. I am a little embarrassed to admit that I do not know as much about the 20v as I would like to, but if I'm not mistaken, the main problem with your engine is that it's not turbocharged. Engines designed to benefit greatly from a turbo, such as the 20v, are often sluggish when naturally aspirated. That is not to say that there isn't something wrong with yours right now, because it sounds like there is, but it could explain some of the sluggishness.

      I'm sure all of that wasn't terribly helpful, but this should be:

      www.20v.org

      ^That website is a wealth of information about your engine. Poke around there for a bit and I'm sure you'll find some of the answers you are looking for.

      I hope that helps. These cars can be a pain in the ass to work on sometimes, but they really are great vehicles. Don't give up. Good Luck!
      well im glad i have such a great engine but from what i see i can turn all 4 tires over on the dry but its revs are slow but smooth, i too had many mk1 rabbits and mk2 jettas but this thing i dont have a clue. It cant have the 20v power everyone is boasting about. looked for turbo parts but i was unsuccessful. i can find much info on mine. what liter is mine im seeing 2.2 2.3,ect but im not sure what i have...

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      02-09-2012 03:05 AM #4
      Alright. My first suggestion to you is to learn as much about your engine as possible. The following pages are both found through 20v.org, but here they are explicitly.

      For all specifications on your engine (which certainly includes displacement! --> By the way, it's 141 cubic inches, which = 2,309 cubic centimeters, which = 2.3 Liters), click the following:

      http://20v.org/specs.htm


      For any questions about performance upgrades, click this:

      http://20v.org/upgrade.htm

      There you will find several links which divide the upgrades into logical groups, such as Engine, or Suspension.

      Again, I don't know as much as I'd like to, since I don't own one, but just reading the Engine upgrades page told me that the version that your car is equipped with is somehow different from the core engine that comes with the turbocharger from the factory. I concluded this because at one point it says "swap in a 20vt (20 Valve Turbocharged) from a 1993-1996 S4 or S6. Not sure why you can't just add a turbo to your engine, but apparently you can't or that would've surely been mentioned. On the bright side, reading the same paragraph informed me that there is an ECU chip that you can buy that gives a pretty significant boost in your low end torque, which is exactly what you are looking for. I'd recommend starting with that, and going from there (unless you have the time/money for the 20vt engine swap, which I'm assuming you don't).

      I hope this is more help to you.

    5. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-09-2012 04:34 AM #5
      ive been researching, i did infact run acrossed the 20v website you pointed out. most stock na engines will take 6-7 psi with no mods... since it seems to be a decently free reving engine i imagine it would take boost well. I wish someone with a good running stock 20v would let me see what there car can do so i can determine if mine is running crappy or normal. if you have a video or something of a stock 20v dash accelerating so i can compare to mine it would be helpful. thanx for everything and thanxs for the warm welcome--

    6. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-09-2012 04:45 AM #6
      can someone link me to a (FREE!!!!) repair manual PDF that covers [ 1990 Audi 90 quattro 20v- N/A ] thanx it would be absolutely awesome!!!!

    7. Member de80q's Avatar
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      02-09-2012 08:44 AM #7
      You should try posting you question on www.motorgeek.com there are many people there that have taken that engine to an extreme and also many that just run it. If they cant help, no one can.
      "If you can't find one, make one"

    8. Member de80q's Avatar
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      02-09-2012 08:47 AM #8
      Motorgeek is run by 034motorsport. They on one of the leaders in 20v turbo kits. kind of pricy but tons of r&d put into it.
      "If you can't find one, make one"

    9. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-09-2012 12:20 PM #9
      you guys are awesome thanx for the link -- still lookin for a repair manual DL link for a 1990 audi 90 quattro 20v

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      02-11-2012 03:12 PM #10
      In regards to your search for a repair manual, for my 1995 90q the only one available is a digital copy from Bentley. It comes on a disk, and you can purchase it online. I would share, but mine is specific to the B4 Platform, so you need someone else with a B3 version. Worst case scenario, you could just buy it legitimately. I don't believe it was more than $15.

    11. Junior Member Kliminati456's Avatar
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      02-11-2012 04:22 PM #11
      Okay first thing you need to do is check for error codes and run an output test. This will give you a good starting point...If you have questions on how to do it pm me
      http://20v.org/fault.htm

      You definitely need a Bentley, check here every few days as they do pop up.....
      http://www.audifans.com/marketplace/...audifans_Parts

      Also like others have said to join Motorgeek as there are many people there with a ton of experience with these cars.

      Does the car sputter first then lose power or just fall flat. Is it getting good spark? It could be you knock sensors are shot or not properly torqued. The coolant temp sensor could definitely be part of the problem or your thermostat could be shot. Could also be a vacuum leak or clogged cat. Your really going to need to go through and check each sensor/ check for vacuum leaks/ check spark plugs,cap,rotor,wires. Hows the fuel pressure? Is the car running the stock Hitachi injectors? Those are known to be a source of hesitation as they fail with age.

      Some things you should go through and check/do....

      Make sure connections are good/dry
      check/clean all grounds
      test function of each sensor (info in Bentley manual)
      loosen re torque knock sensors to proper torque
      check timing
      check compression/leak down test
      check thermostat function
      vacuum leaks
      gaskets/o-rings
      air filter
      fuel filter
      fuel pressure regulator
      injectors
      spark plugs(make sure they are Bosch F6DTC, 7A is very pick about this)
      distributor cap & rotor
      spark plug wires
      coil
      02 sensor
      clogged cat
      ,.!..

    12. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-11-2012 10:43 PM #12
      so, Ive been looking everywhere for a manual- auto parts stores say there isnt one available for this car-- well that sux. so i checked on line looking fore PDF manual DL and got a russian one, which doesnt tell me anything lol so I got on ebay and they have one for 2500 bucks with free shipping lol and another for $500+ and so im like F-ThAT! so i found a Audi dealer sevice manual supposably? i dunno, but it cost me like 45 bucks which also sux. I want paper pages but i gotta do what I gotta do. while i was ther I orderd a O2 sensor water temp sensor radiator fan switch -- my oil temp guage doesnt work but im not sure what sensor i need as I dont know where to look to see what i need. im guessing its on the back of the engine but IDK... with out a manual it makes things frustrating. i will be looking for a bently but i dont wanna pay the price of a veyron to see whats wrong with my car so I research every night after work and morning before i work. the parts for this car is outrageous!!!!!! and hard to find! not much after market follow either! its a nice car why is it so unpopular and expensive? rare? i dont get it. i will be joining the motor geek thing too... i need all the info i can get- im also a bit of an info sponge for cars. is there other sensors i should look into? my car doesnt studder it just has poor acceleration (in my opinion) and you have to put the throttle down so far to get it going also it really doesnt pull hard through the revs kinda falls off at about 4k it still pulls but it has no pull till l;ike 2500 rpm and last till 4k?

    13. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-11-2012 10:44 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Kliminati456 View Post
      Okay first thing you need to do is check for error codes and run an output test. This will give you a good starting point...If you have questions on how to do it pm me
      http://20v.org/fault.htm

      You definitely need a Bentley, check here every few days as they do pop up.....
      http://www.audifans.com/marketplace/...audifans_Parts

      Also like others have said to join Motorgeek as there are many people there with a ton of experience with these cars.

      Does the car sputter first then lose power or just fall flat. Is it getting good spark? It could be you knock sensors are shot or not properly torqued. The coolant temp sensor could definitely be part of the problem or your thermostat could be shot. Could also be a vacuum leak or clogged cat. Your really going to need to go through and check each sensor/ check for vacuum leaks/ check spark plugs,cap,rotor,wires. Hows the fuel pressure? Is the car running the stock Hitachi injectors? Those are known to be a source of hesitation as they fail with age.

      Some things you should go through and check/do....

      Make sure connections are good/dry
      check/clean all grounds
      test function of each sensor (info in Bentley manual)
      loosen re torque knock sensors to proper torque
      check timing
      check compression/leak down test
      check thermostat function
      vacuum leaks
      gaskets/o-rings
      air filter
      fuel filter
      fuel pressure regulator
      injectors
      spark plugs(make sure they are Bosch F6DTC, 7A is very pick about this)
      distributor cap & rotor
      spark plug wires
      coil
      02 sensor
      clogged cat
      thanx i will be pm'n when i get a chance

    14. Junior Member Kliminati456's Avatar
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      02-12-2012 12:59 AM #14
      There are plenty of places to get oem at reasonable prices.... and plenty of aftermarket parts available to get your car to 1000+hp if you want to take it that far.... you just need to know the proper places to look. Do not count on your local autoparts store for anything more than oil. The only manual you want for your car is a Bentley Publishing manual. they do come around in hard copy from time to time, I got mine locally along with the electrical troubleshooting guide for $50.

      In the mean time join on 20v.org and there is a pdf service on manual there
      ,.!..

    15. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-12-2012 10:48 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Kliminati456 View Post
      There are plenty of places to get oem at reasonable prices.... and plenty of aftermarket parts available to get your car to 1000+hp if you want to take it that far.... you just need to know the proper places to look. Do not count on your local autoparts store for anything more than oil. The only manual you want for your car is a Bentley Publishing manual. they do come around in hard copy from time to time, I got mine locally along with the electrical troubleshooting guide for $50.

      In the mean time join on 20v.org and there is a pdf service on manual there
      ive been to 20v.org looking but came up empty handed-- i did find some things and alot of info just havent registered yet. 1000hp would be so insane - i seen a few that were older with 1000+hp - i went looking for a licence plate light bulb and it seems i have to order everything online oh well. its a bit inconveinient but i like the car so... I'll do what I have to. if you can send me a pdf link for that manual it would be unexplainably amazing of you.

    16. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-13-2012 12:50 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by driftninjakilla View Post
      ive been to 20v.org looking but came up empty handed-- i did find some things and alot of info just havent registered yet. 1000hp would be so insane - i seen a few that were older with 1000+hp - i went looking for a licence plate light bulb and it seems i have to order everything online oh well. its a bit inconveinient but i like the car so... I'll do what I have to. if you can send me a pdf link for that manual it would be unexplainably amazing of you.
      HHYHAHAHAHAA IM A DUMB ****!!!! IVE BEEN TO 20V SO MANY TIMES AND NEVER CLICKED THE NEW SCHOOL PART!!! I DIDNT THINK IT APPLIED TO MY CAR!! I FOUND ALL KINDS OF ISHHH. I DIDNT KNOW THERE WAS FORUMS AND TECH NOTES,CLASSIFIEDS,PARTS AND EVERYTHING I IMAGINED. LMFAO!! IT WAS HIDING THERE THE WHOLE TIME?!!! IM A MEMBER OF 20V.NET NOW THANX GUYS.

    17. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-14-2012 05:34 PM #17
      so my cooliong fan isnt working but I was looking at my fuse panel under the hood-- looks like i might be missing the relay that controls it. But im unsure so im posting this pic-excuse the 2 mgapxl cam. its the spot to the left and up from #271 is there a part # or a specific name I could request this part with? or is it supposed to be empty? i cant find any photos of my fuse panel anywhere, and im still waiting on the manual-i checked the pdf repair on 20v.net but no luck.

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      02-14-2012 10:24 PM #18
      Yes. You are missing a fan relay. There should be a # 214 relay in the second upper socket from the left of the photo. However if the relay was simply pulled then the fan should be on constant. I have an 89 10v which keeps blowing relays. Perhaps the previous owner was stupid and pulled the fuse as well to get the fan to stop.

      My 10v 90 Quattro isn't exactly fast, but it has plenty of torque and can pull it's self up a pretty steep hill at under 2000 RPM. You, theoretically, have 30 more BHP and more torque so should be able to trump that pretty well. One easy thing you could check, if you haven't already, is throttle travel. After putting my engine back together from a clutch change, I found that I had absolutely NO acceleration. This turned out to be having forgotten a small clip that holds the throttle cable in it's proper position.

      In addition to what others mentioned, check everything for vacuum leaks. Listen for hissing especially around the CIS menagerie. On mine there was a rubber hose that ran under the intake to various parts of the EGR system, which had simply returned to the earth.

      Once you find the problem you also really should set the timing and mixture (or percent CO as it is referred to by Audi) to get the engine running where it is happiest.

      If you can't afford a manual, perhaps your library has one. Mine did, which I photocopied about 100 pages of.

      Good Luck!

    19. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-14-2012 10:35 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by flailhyena View Post
      Yes. You are missing a fan relay. There should be a # 214 relay in the second upper socket from the left of the photo. However if the relay was simply pulled then the fan should be on constant. I have an 89 10v which keeps blowing relays. Perhaps the previous owner was stupid and pulled the fuse as well to get the fan to stop.

      My 10v 90 Quattro isn't exactly fast, but it has plenty of torque and can pull it's self up a pretty steep hill at under 2000 RPM. You, theoretically, have 30 more BHP and more torque so should be able to trump that pretty well. One easy thing you could check, if you haven't already, is throttle travel. After putting my engine back together from a clutch change, I found that I had absolutely NO acceleration. This turned out to be having forgotten a small clip that holds the throttle cable in it's proper position.

      In addition to what others mentioned, check everything for vacuum leaks. Listen for hissing especially around the CIS menagerie. On mine there was a rubber hose that ran under the intake to various parts of the EGR system, which had simply returned to the earth.

      Once you find the problem you also really should set the timing and mixture (or percent CO as it is referred to by Audi) to get the engine running where it is happiest.

      If you can't afford a manual, perhaps your library has one. Mine did, which I photocopied about 100 pages of.

      Good Luck!
      interesting-- i here from another guy he took a screen shot of his alldata page and it shows it empty-- #214 huh... i dont suppose there would be a part# or a reference name i could look up for replacement is there? to ensure i get the correct one? you say yours is 10v 1989? could 20v 1990 be different also mine is N/A and 5spd Quattro


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      02-14-2012 11:13 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by driftninjakilla View Post
      interesting-- i here from another guy he took a screen shot of his alldata page and it shows it empty-- #214 huh... i dont suppose there would be a part# or a reference name i could look up for replacement is there? to ensure i get the correct one? you say yours is 10v 1989? could 20v 1990 be different also mine is N/A and 5spd Quattro
      I don't see why the fuse boxes would differ too much. Mine is the N/A 10v 5 speed Quattro. I guess I wouldn't rule it out completely. Audi did seem to change things around on the cars constantly.. but it looks exactly like mine. Maybe the other guy was referring to the socket just in front of the fan relay.. which is empty mind you. A quick search for "Audi relay # 214" yields part number 443951253K. It should be the same relay as the air conditioning relays on the far drivers side of the box, which are also 214. If the fan isn't running at all I don't think it's going to be a relay, there's probably a break somewhere else.

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      02-14-2012 11:20 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by driftninjakilla View Post
      Wait a minute... Doesn't your fuse box have the diagram of all the fuses and relays on top of the cover? Mine does. One thing I notice about the diagram you were linked at the other forum is that it has no A/C relays. Does yours have A/C? Perhaps the fuse box diagram linked to you is out of a stripped down European model without A/C? Or it could be that in 1990 they moved the A/C relays to another box.
      Last edited by flailhyena; 02-14-2012 at 11:25 PM.

    22. Junior Member driftninjakilla's Avatar
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      02-15-2012 03:05 AM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by flailhyena View Post
      Wait a minute... Doesn't your fuse box have the diagram of all the fuses and relays on top of the cover? Mine does. One thing I notice about the diagram you were linked at the other forum is that it has no A/C relays. Does yours have A/C? Perhaps the fuse box diagram linked to you is out of a stripped down European model without A/C? Or it could be that in 1990 they moved the A/C relays to another box.
      yes , mine has climate control so it has a/c --------diagram isnt readable
      Last edited by driftninjakilla; 02-15-2012 at 03:08 AM.

    23. Member Mcstiff's Avatar
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      02-26-2012 11:34 AM #24
      I'm not in here much so I'll echo the motorgeek, 20v.org/net, and add quattroworld as the places to go for these cars. It sounds like yours is not running well, lets remember that when new these should have been as good as a B5A4 (if not better).

      Regarding your fuse box, if you open the lid and push it towards the pass side it will pop off and it will be easier to read the schematic that should be on it.
      Ed Hankin *All posts subject to inaccuracy due to multi-tasking and autocorrect.
      1PissedOff90 1995 Sport 90 Quattro with too much to list
      1991 Audi Coupe Quattro 7aT Holset, VEMS, ETC

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