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    Thread: To Cabrio or not to Cabrio...that is the question.

    1. Member tolusina's Avatar
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      04-06-2012 10:04 AM #176
      Quote Originally Posted by denniro View Post
      Everybody needs a tolusina or a BrokeVW, that's what the 'tex is all about, well that and having people half a continent away pull parts at the jy for you. I also noticed that the timing belt seemed to be a tooth off.
      I will and do take that as a compliment, I am indeed flattered, Thank You!

      I am OK on transmissions too, but Broke is definitely THE 020 guru in these parts, most 020 trans questions I just wait for him to respond.
      The guy really is amazing, he seems to somehow troll many of the individual forums here and jump in where he's needed, howz he do that?
      I do have a cap feather from Broke, he has posted one of my animated gifs on his site (with permission, he's got manners too!), that is a flattery too.

      A1 convertible top stuffs, I usually leave to Briano1234, he's done several more than I and had the funds to do them well.
      Quote Originally Posted by kamzcab86
      I hate reading: "But I bought this car for $500 and don't want to put another dime into it."
      ____(hey, it's VW AND it's electrical, what's not to fail?) neoBentley+



    2. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-06-2012 08:16 PM #177
      Found this on bentleys problem board.....

      link: http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/me...ssageID=344757

      quote
      I have found the solution to the no spark on my 1997 VW Jetta. My son brought his 1996 Cabrio home today and I obtained a handheld oscilloscope and looked at the output from the Crankshaft sensor. On the Running Cabrio the output from the crankshaft sensor was 2.1 rms while on the jetta that will not start the rms voltage was .275. Actually I also used a digital voltmeter and measured the same ac voltage. What was so difficult in solving the problem was that I purchased a new crankshaft sensor and installed. I am now certain that the new sensor is wrong. Because it is a magnetic proximity sensor the gap between the teeth and the head on the sensor is critical. I believe that I was send the wrong sensor. If you are having a no spark, back probe the crankshaft sensor and you should measure between 1.0 and 2.0 volts ac (rms) between the red and green wires. If you do not read this you probably have a bad crankshaft sensor. If you do read this voltage check the input to the coil from the ECM. It should read from 8 to 10 volts ac, ballpark, if not ECM could be the problem
      unquote

      Does anybody know if the crankshaft position sensor is different between a mk3 and a mk3.5?
      Also I find having to test for AC a bit curious....
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-06-2012 at 08:19 PM.

    3. Member kamzcab86's Avatar
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      04-06-2012 08:36 PM #178
      In looking for the crank sensor on GAP, I found this regarding the cam pos. sensor:
      "Also known as Hall sender. Located inside distributor. ***Only fits distributors with VW part number 037905025R and 037905205T*** Installation of this part requires disassembly of the distributor, you should also consider replacing the entire distributor as an alternative to replacing only the Hall sender***"

      I didn't go back and read your posts, but I recall you saying the CPS is new and you swapped in a used distributor. Maybe the problem is that these two parts are now incompatible in your car?? Maybe take a look at part numbers and compare.
      Cabby-Info.com -- Your online guide to VW Cabriolets/Rabbit Convertibles
      Old Blue's Blog -- The adventures of a 1990 Westfalia
      "Fashion is a waste of money that could be better spent on, say, maintaining your car." ~James May

    4. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      91 Burgundy Etienne(2), 06 2.5L Jetta, 08 GTI 2.0T
      04-07-2012 12:18 PM #179
      I removed the jy distributor and compared numbers to the original...they were different. One part ended with R and the other ended with T.

      In any case, after putting the original distributor back in, spark test, no spark.

      I then attached a dvom to the wire going into the crank position sensor, red and black outside wires.
      Previous discussion suggested there could be 5 or 10 volts in the +- wires going to the cps.
      This is what I got.



      Yes thats 1.59 dc volts input to the cps, key on, engine not being cranked over.
      I switched to ac range and got 0.

      Can anybody confirm if this is right or not?
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-07-2012 at 12:42 PM.

    5. Member tolusina's Avatar
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      04-07-2012 01:39 PM #180
      Switch the black meter lead to a good engine ground, measure DCV on the red harness wire again. I'd expect either 5.0 VDC or 10.0 VDC plus/minus a little. Compare to the voltage at the cam position sensor (Hall in the distributor) harness, should be the same or very close.

      Connect the black meter lead back into the harness, move the red meter lead to battery positive, you should see battery voltage.
      ---
      Did you get any JY plugs yet?
      ---
      You keep this up, I'ma have to find and break out my A3 Bentley soon.
      Quote Originally Posted by kamzcab86
      I hate reading: "But I bought this car for $500 and don't want to put another dime into it."
      ____(hey, it's VW AND it's electrical, what's not to fail?) neoBentley+



    6. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-07-2012 02:01 PM #181
      Going do the test you specified now.

      In any case, the cps part number that was removed from the car is 021 907 319A

      It has a white electrical plug.

    7. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-07-2012 02:16 PM #182
      Switch the black meter lead to a good engine ground, measure DCV on the red harness wire again.

      dvom - to battery -
      dvom + to cps red
      1.6vdc

      I'd expect either 5.0 VDC or 10.0 VDC plus/minus a little.

      Compare to the voltage at the cam position sensor (Hall in the distributor) harness, should be the same or very close.
      distributor red/blk to dvom +
      dvom - to battery -

      12vdc

      Connect the black meter lead back into the harness, move the red meter lead to battery positive, you should see battery voltage.

      dvom - to cps black wire
      dvom + to battery positive

      12vdc

      I have a full mk1 engine wiring harness to pull plugs from.
      Just put battery on charger, 100% charged.


      You help me get this running and theres a paypal reward waiting....no bs.

      Also don't know if it would make a difference, but i have about 4 ecu's i can swap in for testing purposes. one ending with B, another with D and two with Q. car came with Q ecu.
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-07-2012 at 02:35 PM.

    8. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-07-2012 03:04 PM #183
      I'm making up a test wire to plug into the cps wires.

      will give me access to all three wires to test voltage...while fully installed.

      got it done.

      Took the plug off the dead cps and connected it to a correct three plug I cut off the mk1 harness.

      Wired them straight across, tested continuity end to end..checks out.

      So now I have an inline live way to test signals in that line.
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-07-2012 at 03:57 PM.

    9. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-07-2012 09:53 PM #184
      Found a bentley for $55...ordered.

    10. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-09-2012 06:22 PM #185
      That passat the junkyard told me about...has a 1.8 turbo in it.....the car is untouched so far.
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-16-2012 at 02:51 PM.

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      04-09-2012 06:51 PM #186
      cajun-
      i'm following this thread and will be absolutely no help. BUT...i am putting good spiritual vibes into this text in the hopes you and our fellow vortexers get it running soon and well. hang in there. you'll get it!

    12. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      91 Burgundy Etienne(2), 06 2.5L Jetta, 08 GTI 2.0T
      04-09-2012 07:36 PM #187
      I'm really joking about the passat, just passing the time while I try to figure out what to do from here.
      thanks for good wishes.

      I'm just really hoping i don't have to change the crank position sensor again...thats about 4 hours of work i'd rather not have to do again.


      Found this....
      http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthr...t.....No-Spark
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-09-2012 at 10:28 PM.

    13. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      91 Burgundy Etienne(2), 06 2.5L Jetta, 08 GTI 2.0T
      04-09-2012 11:46 PM #188
      This sounds just like my story...and the fixes I've tried, down to the same voltage tests.


      http://www.cars-guide.com/volkswagen...uts-t7375.html


      Ordered another crank position sensor.....
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-10-2012 at 10:51 AM.

    14. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 10:57 AM #189
      Nothing to do with this thread, but its too nice a pic to pass up.
      My lady and my son with both Etiennes. Can you see that grin on her face?
      "darn that german engineering. looked down and I was doing 70 without realizing it!" she said.


    15. Member tinker6468's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 11:49 AM #190
      Good looking family, nice looking cars - got to love the VW crowd and scene

    16. Member tolusina's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 01:35 PM #191
      Cajun,

      Run a jumper lead from the Cam Position Sensor power wire to the Crank Position Sensor power wire, see if the car starts.
      Both sensors should have the same power and ground levels, possibly even from the same source, only the signal destinations in the ECU should differ.

      Make any sense?

      Ron
      Quote Originally Posted by kamzcab86
      I hate reading: "But I bought this car for $500 and don't want to put another dime into it."
      ____(hey, it's VW AND it's electrical, what's not to fail?) neoBentley+



    17. Member csrgti's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 02:00 PM #192
      Just a thought, put the key in the ignition and turn it to the run position.
      Then try jumping ( hot wiring) the starter.

    18. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 02:19 PM #193
      Quote Originally Posted by tolusina View Post
      Cajun,

      Run a jumper lead from the Cam Position Sensor power wire to the Crank Position Sensor power wire, see if the car starts.
      Both sensors should have the same power and ground levels, possibly even from the same source, only the signal destinations in the ECU should differ.

      Make any sense?

      Ron
      Ok. run a line from distributor + to cps +. try to start. got it.
      Actually with the inline jumper I built, I could even apply battery 12v directly to the cps + if needed...
      but I'll go with the distributor +.


      Also read somewhere that you can do a ohm meter test between the cps + and signal line to
      verify if the cps is actually ok and workable?
      Should be about 500 ohms?
      I mostly use the dvom for continuity test and voltage tests. havent figured out ohms yet.
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-10-2012 at 02:24 PM.

    19. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 02:21 PM #194
      Quote Originally Posted by csrgti View Post
      Just a thought, put the key in the ignition and turn it to the run position.
      Then try jumping ( hot wiring) the starter.
      The starter spins just fine, exactly like its supposed to.
      What happens is, when the starter is spinning, no spark happens in the spark plugs.
      Car originally had a bad crank position sensor..replaced it..still no spark though.

      I have another one on order.

      Will try Ron's suggestion.

    20. Member csrgti's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 02:36 PM #195
      It's not to test your starter.
      It's possible that you're losing power to the ignition in the start position ( when cranking ).

    21. Member tolusina's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 03:50 PM #196
      csrgti is suggesting a simple test of the ignition switch 15 circuit while cranking. Not a bad idea at all, simple enough to perform. I doubt you'll find the real issue that way, but hey, complete the test and rule that out, or in, csrgti may just be on to something.
      ---
      As far as connecting battery power to the Crank Position Sender, I'd not do that, I suggest you don't do that either. The Hall senders are low current devices supplied low current by the ECU. Battery power is high current, not what you want to back feed into the ECU.
      ---
      I generally, but not always, find resistance testing of solid state devices a waste of time, there are just too many unknowns (to us anyway, the engineers know but they won't tell us) inside solid state stuffs. Switches, pots, analog devices, yes, by all means, OHM test them if you have specs (like coolant tempo senders, fuel level senders and such).
      ---
      My big three to test on solid state devices, four on some devices, are power, ground and signal, when there are four, signals both in and out count the extras. OHM testing these doesn't tell if the device actually works or not.

      An example of a four test device would be a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) power stage for a heater or radiator fan, though I'm currently at a loss to think of any examples used by VW.
      A PWM power stage will typically have large, current carrying wires for power in, ground, and device (fan motor ow whatever) output and a smaller signal wire.
      The signal in wire can be either a varying voltage from a variable resistor or a PWM signal from an ECU, the output to the controlled device is always PWM.
      A PWM signal is always at full system voltage but rapidly switches on>off>off>... If it's is a fan motor that is being PWM'd, it torques at full torque because it gets full power to it, but speeds as though the voltage varies. That make sense?
      ---
      I did just think of a VW example. I'm guessing again, but pretty much all manufacturers have gone to returnless fuel systems sometime in the last 10 years or so, I assume VW has too.
      These use a PWM controlled fuel pump and a fuel pressure line (directly at the pump or on the fuel rail near the injectors) mounted electrical pressure sensor of some sort. The pump's PWM power stage is either controlled directly from the pressure sensor, or, in other cases when the engineers decided to precisely control fuel pressure, the fuel pressure sensor sends it's signal to the ECU, the ECU then adjusts the fuel pressure dynamically according to load and temperature inputs by controlling the signal to the pump's PWM power stage.
      PWM is pretty cool, works to brighten or dim LEDS while not changing the light color, electric motors can run at high or low speeds with full torque regardless of load, lots of stuffs.

      Did I wander off topic a bit here? Oopsey.......
      ---
      OHM changes on analog devices are what they do, so for those, OHM testing is pretty much everything.
      ---




      .
      Quote Originally Posted by kamzcab86
      I hate reading: "But I bought this car for $500 and don't want to put another dime into it."
      ____(hey, it's VW AND it's electrical, what's not to fail?) neoBentley+



    22. Member tolusina's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 04:02 PM #197
      More PWM, sorry.

      ALL EFI systems PWM the injectors, sort of. They don't have a fixed frequency as a motor, or a CIS frequency valve has, but the actual pulse width in milli-seconds is pretty tightly controlled and determines how long injectors stay open, how much fuel is then delivered during each pulse on.
      ---
      I was just trying to make this PWM topic A3 relevant, now it is.
      Also, hopefully by explaining concepts like this, it will lead to a deeper understanding of how stuff works which often aids diagnosing stuffs when busticated.
      Quote Originally Posted by kamzcab86
      I hate reading: "But I bought this car for $500 and don't want to put another dime into it."
      ____(hey, it's VW AND it's electrical, what's not to fail?) neoBentley+



    23. Member Golf Cabrio 3.5's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 06:26 PM #198
      This thread has become so technical,it's really hard to keep up any more lol!Good luck and keep on trying

    24. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-10-2012 07:00 PM #199
      Stripped back the red/black wire on the distributor plug and cross connected it to the red wire on the cps plug.

      Crank..no spark.
      Swapped in another Q ecu just in case the one I'm using isnt good...still no spark.

      Off topic, I pulled the cabrio battery and went to the junkyard. Dropped it in the passat with 20v turbo and the passat cranked right up...go figure. Cars got 186k miles. put it in reverse..it moved...fwd moved too. MFA1 light on dashboard.

      When putting the battery back in the cabrio, I noticed the positive cable never really gets tight. you can screw down the squeezing nut all you want but there stays some amount of looseness in the + heavy wire to the battery...you can move the clamp even all the way tight.

      I think I'm going to maybe take a hammer to the clamp a little to tighten it up, then do the voltage drop test Ron said earlier.

      the person who was going to see if we could locally test the ecu's said the shop didn't have the right plug to test these vw ecu's.

      I think I'm going to take one of them and ship it off to somebody to test it, since the one time i got

      SOME spark was with a ecu change.

      Just running out of ideas. Ron thanks for the theory...education always helps.

      I do have another cps sensor on the way..ordered it by exact part number off the old one.

      Still need to buy/make led tester as well.
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-10-2012 at 11:22 PM.

    25. Member CajunSpike's Avatar
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      04-12-2012 08:42 PM #200
      found cheap led voltage tester at auto zone.
      Also got in another crankshaft position sensor..ordered by matching part number from the old part.

      Also found this debugging method on the bentley site

      quote
      Here's a summary of some possible causes of your problem:
      1. A faulty engine speed sensor, or wiring to it. Have you had the diagnostic trouble codes checked yet? If not, do so ASAP. It's better to do that and find out that you have a faulty speed sensor than to replace and ECU for nothing. As for the wiring, disconnect the 3-pin harness connector for the engine speed sensor (follow the wire from the sensor back to where you reach the connector). Check resistance between pin 1 of the connector (red) and pin 67 of the ECU harness connector. As well, check between pin 2 (green) and pin 66 of the harness connector. 1.5 ohms is spec in both cases. If you have a high resistance or infinite resistance you've got wiring problems. If this test passes check resistance between pin 1 and the negative terminal of the battery, and then pin 2 and the negative terminal of the battery, and pin 1 and the positive terminal of the battery, and 2 and the + terminal of the battery. You should get infinite resistance (no continuity) in all cases.

      2. Faulty wiring to the coil. Disconnect the coil harness connector. Check resistance between pin 2 of the 3 pin connector (black/red) and pin 8 of the ECU harness connector. Spec = 1.5 ohms or less. Also check for continuity between this pin and the battery terminals. Again, no continuity (infinite resistance) should be present. Since you've already checked for voltage between pins 1 and 3 you don't have to check them again.

      3. Check for voltage at pins 6 and 23 of the ECU harness connector with the ignition on. Check for ground at pin 1, and I believe 7 and 56 are grounded as well.

      Since you're not getting the flashing light at pin 2 of the ignition coil connector, the problem has to be in the stuff before the ignition coil itself. Timing, etc. shouldn't be affecting it. If the wiring is ok and there's a code for the engine speed sensor it's the likely culprit. If there's no code and everything else checks out ok I'd be suspicious of the ECU.

      unquote
      Last edited by CajunSpike; 04-12-2012 at 08:45 PM.

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