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    Thread: Obama's proposed budget calls for upping plug-in vehicle tax credit to $10,000

    1. Member
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      02-16-2012 07:40 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by miatafreak View Post
      Not sure why electric cars have become such a politicized product...
      They'll get here eventually, when the technology is up to par with what the market needs. Artificially swaying prices with subsidies won't change the fact that an electric car doesn't yet make sense for the good majority of the population that drives more than the 47-105 mile range of the Nissan Leaf. Yet another case of the government stepping into a field where it's completely unnecessary.
      Politics aside your facts are wrong. The "good majority" of commuters average around 40 miles round trip or less. That is why the Volt targeted that range and why Leaf owner stats also reflect that.

      Even if you need more that is why the EREV format was developed with the Volt and others are getting onboard.

      The issue isn't the tech necessarily, but rather the cost of the tech. You plug in your phone or laptop every night. This new breed of powertrains are no different.

    2. 02-16-2012 07:42 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      Because solar panels are so cheap and easy to come by.....
      once again tax credits and they are getting cheaper. If you can afford a 30-40k electric car you can afford some solar panels
      Boiler Up!

      Make it three yards mother****er and we'll have an automobile race

    3. Member Egz's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 07:48 AM #73
      Still waiting for a $20k, 150mi range electric car...

    4. Member stevegolf's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 07:57 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Salty VW View Post
      OMG Ronald Reagan is posting on TCL!
      Who let that tax raising, deficit spending lefty in here?

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      02-16-2012 07:58 AM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by cryption View Post
      Any idea what the additional strain will be on our power infrastructure? We had rolling blackouts last summer because we didn't have enough juice for everyone's AC to run. How will the additional demand exacerbate the situation? Serious question.
      This should not be a problem, because:
      1) EV's and their ilk will not explode on the market with a massive tidle wave of volume. They will be a slow ramp up due to the realities of their cost.

      2) Most people drive 40-ish round trip daily and the only 2 cars out can handle that in general.

      3) Most people work day shift so charging would happen at night.

      4) The electric grid is less utilized at nights so the utility would actually love to exercise that unused capacity at night and make profit.

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      02-16-2012 08:01 AM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Reagan View Post
      Yep. Be damned how much electricity is wasted charging these glorified RC cars. And of course nuclear power is out of the question
      And yet the first approval for a new nuclear power plant in what...40 years just went through. Under the OBAMA admin, no less.

      Hoocoodanode?

    7. Member bpodlesnik's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 08:06 AM #77
      What happens when you get stuck in traffic for a couple hours on your 40 mile commute?

    8. Member 200HP4dr's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 08:10 AM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      What happens when you get stuck in traffic for a couple hours on your 40 mile commute?
      Well, if you're truly stuck, meaning sitting still, you roll down your windows. Just like you'd do in a gas powered car and shut it off.

      Chris
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    9. Member bpodlesnik's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 08:23 AM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by lojasmo View Post
      And yet the first approval for a new nuclear power plant in what...40 years just went through. Under the OBAMA admin, no less.

      Hoocoodanode?
      Yeah but the 2147 mile long Keystone Pipeline, which would have created thousands of jobs, and would have enabled natural gas, and oil being supplied right here in the US, which would significantly reduce our dependancy on foreign oil, he did not approve of.

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      02-16-2012 08:25 AM #80
      I think people are making this into what they want so they can make it political, but in reality just making themselves look like idiots.

      The current $7500 credit doesn't come out of your pocket ever. If I buy an EV and I only pay 6K a year in taxes I can only get 6K in credit, you don't pay that other 1500 bucks so you didn't put a dime into it.

      I hope anyone who has a problem with this has 0 with holdings on their W4 and doesn't claim any deductions on their taxes like mortgage interest or you are just doing the same thing an EV buyer does and that is lower what they pay.

    11. Member bpodlesnik's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 08:26 AM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by 200HP4dr View Post
      Well, if you're truly stuck, meaning sitting still, you roll down your windows. Just like you'd do in a gas powered car and shut it off.

      Chris
      Will you still turn your car off when you're stuck in traffic, and its 95 degrees outside?

    12. Member xdre's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 08:27 AM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      Yeah but the 2147 mile long Keystone Pipeline, which would have created thousands of jobs, and would have enabled natural gas, and oil being supplied right here in the US, which would significantly reduce our dependancy on foreign oil, he did not approve of.
      Try getting your facts from elsewhere besides Big Oil's mouthpieces.

    13. Member bpodlesnik's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 08:31 AM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by xdre View Post
      Try getting your facts from elsewhere besides Big Oil's mouthpieces.
      What is unfactual about what I stated?

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      02-16-2012 08:33 AM #84
      It really never fails to amaze me how many people will rage, rage against the dying of light....long after dark has fallen and everybody else is rocking flashlights.
      IPRO Meat-Director and High Minister of Terror-Grilling

      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
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      02-16-2012 08:38 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      Yeah but the 2147 mile long Keystone Pipeline, which would have created thousands of jobs, and would have enabled natural gas, and oil being supplied right here in the US, which would significantly reduce our dependancy on foreign oil, he did not approve of.
      ...mostly because a rushed, and artificial deadline for a decision, Feb. 21st, was imposed by Boehner et al. as part of the payroll tax extension passed December 22nd.

      “This announcement is not a judgment on the merits of the pipeline, but the arbitrary nature of a deadline that prevented the State Department from gathering the information necessary to approve the project and protect the American people,” the president said in a statement.
      Political gamesmanship, nothing more. Never imagine for a second that the president or his party are not going to let Keystone get built.
      IPRO Meat-Director and High Minister of Terror-Grilling

      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
      The Terror Grill: Part restaurant, part amusement attraction, part gladiator arena, all profit.
      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

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      02-16-2012 08:44 AM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      Okay, well you can go hug your tree, crawl back into bed and keep worrying about all of Earth's oil and gas running out, and your future of an electric car actually hitting a reasonable price to purchase and maintain. Meanwhile, I'm going to keep driving my car that runs on gas, and revving my exhaust fumes into the atmosphere, and going about my life, because I don't give a rats a$$ of a electric car future. Kapeesh?
      "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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    17. Member bpodlesnik's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 08:47 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      ...mostly because a rushed, and artificial deadline for a decision, Feb. 21st, was imposed by Boehner et al. as part of the payroll tax extension passed December 22nd.



      Political gamesmanship, nothing more. Never imagine for a second that the president or his party are not going to let Keystone get built.
      I think think that is a sorry a$$ excuse, and politicians on both sides should have done more solving and less bickering. And I do think that the president and his party won't let it be built because I think he is trying to push the electric future to hard and to fast. But I'll think what I want and everyone else can think what they want, and we can go our seperate ways. Addio.

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      02-16-2012 08:51 AM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      I think think that is a sorry a$$ excuse, and politicians on both sides should have done more solving and less bickering.:
      Well, then, tell Boehner to set reasonable deadlines instead of forcing a decision he might not like. That was his gamble, and he lost big.

      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      And I do think that the president and his party won't let it be built because I think he is trying to push the electric future to hard and to fast. But I'll think what I want and everyone else can think what they want, and we can go our seperate ways. Addio.
      Obama doesn't give a rat's ass about the environment. Your assumptions are way off base.
      IPRO Meat-Director and High Minister of Terror-Grilling

      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
      The Terror Grill: Part restaurant, part amusement attraction, part gladiator arena, all profit.
      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

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      02-16-2012 08:54 AM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      I think think that is a sorry a$$ excuse
      Good to know you think public safety is an "excuse".

      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      and politicians on both sides should have done more solving and less bickering.
      And such a clear understanding of current DC politics too.

      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      And I do think that the president and his party won't let it be built because I think he is trying to push the electric future to hard and to fast.


      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      But I'll think what I want and everyone else can think what they want, and we can go our seperate ways. Addio.
      "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
      -Philip K. Dick
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    20. 02-16-2012 08:54 AM #90
      Until we have cars that can mimic gas cars range 250+ mile range, mimic their price structure and can charge in the time it takes to fill up at a gas station, electric cars will only be a boutique item to the average american.

    21. Member zhenya00's Avatar
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      02-16-2012 08:58 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by randyvr6 View Post
      Personally, I don't think the taxpayers of this country should be responsible for paying for other people's cars.
      You seem to have no problem paying for other people's gas today.

      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      There is enough gas and oil in the world to last thousands of years, even with everything going on. And what does last forever? And how do you think you get the electricity to power the electric car? Does it magically appear? Do you have some gerbil spin a wheel to create it all?
      Source please. Everything credible says you're wrong. How about sticking to subjects you are educated about?

      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      Yeah but the 2147 mile long Keystone Pipeline, which would have created thousands of jobs, and would have enabled natural gas, and oil being supplied right here in the US, which would significantly reduce our dependancy on foreign oil, he did not approve of.
      Wrong again. Most of that oil will be exported. (Why do you think it's going to the Gulf coast?)

      Again, see above.
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      02-16-2012 09:00 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      I think think that is a sorry a$$ excuse, and politicians on both sides should have done more solving and less bickering. And I do think that the president and his party won't let it be built because I think he is trying to push the electric future to hard and to fast. But I'll think what I want and everyone else can think what they want, and we can go our seperate ways. Addio.
      Good god, are you really this disconnected from reality? Your rhetoric is the exact kind of crap that is preventing anything from being done in Washington. You project your worse fears on people you consider your opposition.

      It's easier to blame Obama and call him an environut than it is to accept that republican posturing is what is holding this whole process up. The only thing he is asking is for the process to not be rushed. You have nothing but creatively created opinion to support what you're saying, which is totally unsupported by the facts at hand.
      Last edited by rbloedow; 02-16-2012 at 09:02 AM.

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      02-16-2012 09:00 AM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Reagan View Post
      Why not provide a tax credit to those who need it; instead of the upper middle class Dems who buy these cars to impress their friends with their "environmental consciousness"?

      Another classic case of the Dem's pandering to their environmental extremist base on the taxpayers dime.
      How, exactly, do you think a continuous supply of oil is guaranteed to us today?

      Let me guess, you think it's nearly a free marketplace, and would be better if it was all the more unregulated?
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      02-16-2012 09:03 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by bpodlesnik View Post
      What is unfactual about what I stated?
      How about the fact that such a pipeline will only create hundreds of jobs, not thousands, and most such jobs will be temporary only? You really think it takes thousands of people to maintain a pipeline once it's constructed?

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      02-16-2012 09:15 AM #95
      Yeah guys, the Volt's cruising range is 350 miles.

      The reason we need this subsidy is so electric cars reach critical mass faster than the market demands. Critical mass means economy of scale naturally reduces price to affordable levels so it is adopted by the mainstream. The reason why the subsidy should be now is because economy of scale could reduce electric car price by $5-10k if electric cars were bought at the same volumes as mainstream cars. So the subsidy should be there until economy of scale kicks in and the cars can compete using their natural value proposition.
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      02-16-2012 09:19 AM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by curvedinfinity View Post
      Yeah guys, the Volt's cruising range is 350 miles.

      The reason we need this subsidy is so electric cars reach critical mass faster than the market demands. Critical mass means economy of scale naturally reduces price to affordable levels so it is adopted by the mainstream. The reason why the subsidy should be now is because economy of scale could reduce electric car price by $5-10k if electric cars were bought at the same volumes as mainstream cars. So the subsidy should be there until economy of scale kicks in and the cars can compete using their natural value proposition.
      Gah! Too many der big words and idears.

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      02-16-2012 09:20 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by xdre View Post
      How about the fact that such a pipeline will only create hundreds of jobs, not thousands, and most such jobs will be temporary only? You really think it takes thousands of people to maintain a pipeline once it's constructed?
      Speaking as somebody who's been involved with pipeline projects....this. It'll create about as many jobs as a few Recovery Act projects. It's a construction project. They don't last forever and when it's done, they don't need much input.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
      The Terror Grill: Part restaurant, part amusement attraction, part gladiator arena, all profit.
      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

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      02-16-2012 09:28 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by curvedinfinity View Post
      Yeah guys, the Volt's cruising range is 350 miles.

      The reason we need this subsidy is so electric cars reach critical mass faster than the market demands. Critical mass means economy of scale naturally reduces price to affordable levels so it is adopted by the mainstream. The reason why the subsidy should be now is because economy of scale could reduce electric car price by $5-10k if electric cars were bought at the same volumes as mainstream cars. So the subsidy should be there until economy of scale kicks in and the cars can compete using their natural value proposition.

      I agree with your reasons why this is good but using the term subsidy just makes people think negatively of it. It isn't a subsidy you are getting ONLY your own money back, not someone elses.

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      02-16-2012 09:34 AM #99
      I really like EVs (especially the LEAF).

      I think a better approach would be investing in research/development in EV technology, as well as pushing to mainstream bio-based alternative fuels (such as algae/biodiesel/CNG), as opposed to directly trying to get consumers to buy current EV products that are *almost* ready for 'mainstream use'.

      Perhaps allowing more diesels to be built/imported into US would be a easy start into lessening dependence on petroleum.


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      02-16-2012 09:42 AM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by chris@revotechnik View Post
      I agree with your reasons why this is good but using the term subsidy just makes people think negatively of it. It isn't a subsidy you are getting ONLY your own money back, not someone elses.
      So when you get "your money" back that doesn't go into paying your taxes, who is left to make up for your shortfall?

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      02-16-2012 09:46 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by lab_rat View Post
      I really like EVs (especially the LEAF).

      I think a better approach would be investing in research/development in EV technology, as well as pushing to mainstream bio-based alternative fuels (such as algae/biodiesel/CNG), as opposed to directly trying to get consumers to buy current EV products that are *almost* ready for 'mainstream use'.
      :
      But when algae-based biodiesel continues to be uneconomical and exceedingly difficult to produce cheaply, you're left with another Solyndra debacle, with DOE standing there with their dicks in their hands while they're beat around the head and shoulders by pundits pissed that they're "picking winners".

      Meanwhile, we at least know that PHEVs and EVs work, as advertised, and can be brought to market for the price of an A4 with a few options.
      IPRO Meat-Director and High Minister of Terror-Grilling

      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
      The Terror Grill: Part restaurant, part amusement attraction, part gladiator arena, all profit.
      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

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      02-16-2012 09:51 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by chris@revotechnik View Post
      I think people are making this into what they want so they can make it political, but in reality just making themselves look like idiots.

      The current $7500 credit doesn't come out of your pocket ever. If I buy an EV and I only pay 6K a year in taxes I can only get 6K in credit, you don't pay that other 1500 bucks so you didn't put a dime into it.

      I hope anyone who has a problem with this has 0 with holdings on their W4 and doesn't claim any deductions on their taxes like mortgage interest or you are just doing the same thing an EV buyer does and that is lower what they pay.
      But doesn't a tax credit come out of everyone's pocket in one way or another? $7500 less in tax revenue from one household is $7500 more added to the national debt we all (in the US) get saddled with, no? Unless taxes are increased elsewhere to offset it.
      Quote Originally Posted by phryxis View Post
      sprayed it on, waited some time, and proceeded to go at it with a scraper, some pliers, and a lot of f-ing hard work.

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      02-16-2012 09:51 AM #103
      my only question/problem is: where is the government getting the money to offer a $7500 credit (credit = "future" money)? i guess they will have to trim the budget somewhere else? or will they just beg the Fed for more money? i just can't side with credit-based spending anymore
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      02-16-2012 09:53 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by DJMRDARK View Post
      When people living in apartments can own and freely charge these cars the market will reach critical mass. Until then it is a uphill battle towards mass adoption.
      Since when do people living in apartments represent a majority, or even a significant minority, of serious prospective buyers of $30-40k automobiles?

      Middle-to-upper class new car buyers tend to own homes, not rent apartments, outside the central cores of a few very large cities.
      IPRO Meat-Director and High Minister of Terror-Grilling

      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
      The Terror Grill: Part restaurant, part amusement attraction, part gladiator arena, all profit.
      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

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      02-16-2012 09:54 AM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Since when do people living in apartments represent a majority, or even a significant minority, of serious prospective buyers of $30-40k automobiles?

      Middle-to-upper class new car buyers tend to own homes, not rent apartments, outside the central cores of a few very large cities.
      Even if it were a problem, it's not ruinous to install power in every stall in an apartment. My apartment in the Canadian prairies was retrofitted with plugs for block heaters and the world didn't end.

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