The Chinese clone thread... gone wild

[Analyst]

Except it's not an authorized reproduction. It is a copy. Just like how BAIC cloned the Mercedes B-class. They got Mercedes by the balls and there is nothing the Germans can do.

BAIC is not the only one that rips off their JV partners:

Brilliance blatantly copies the X1...

FAW rips off Mazda

If they are so discontent with these "blatant copies" why don't they walk out of the partnerships? Nobody's forcing them to be partnered with such evil companies.

That tells me they either they aren't copies, or the partners simply don't care. Either way... If these companies, who got their IP so unjustly stolen, are not complaining, why are you?

And there the sordid tales of how Nanjing FIAT Palio ended up in the hands of another Chinese company.

Check your facts before spouting your bull****. Zotye bought several older gen Fiat platforms, including the Palio, Siena, Multipla and Strada, from Fiat.

[AggvGtivr6]

Chinese rip off anything and everything, why would cars be any different?

[GolfTango]

...copies:

Actually the BYD F6 is a direct copy of the 7th Gen Accord.

[GolfTango]

The Dongfeng EQ2050 Hanma

Is that a Chipster?

[NightTrain EX]

Is that a Chipster?

Another Dongfang (makers of the copied humvee)....this time it's the MB Unimog.

[vwtoys]

If they start offering the humvee and unimog at Harborfreight. I'll buy them with the 20% off coupons.

[GolfTango]

Another Dongfang (makers of the copied humvee)....this time it's the MB Unimog.

I was referring to the guy standing next to it.

[VadGTI]

Didn't know about this one. Ripping a JV member off, amazing...

[VadGTI]

Actually the BYD F6 is a direct copy of the 7th Gen Accord.

Wow, that's exactly what it is, aside from front/rear fascias.

[bzcat]

If they are so discontent with these "blatant copies" why don't they walk out of the partnerships? Nobody's forcing them to be partnered with such evil companies.

How do you walk out on your JV partner? The Chinese Govt says you can't. If you walk away, you are shut out of the Chinese market.

That tells me they either they aren't copies, or the partners simply don't care. Either way... If these companies, who got their IP so unjustly stolen, are not complaining, why are you?

You are clearly some sort of Chinese leg humper. Be objective. These cars are rip offs and people are right to call it as is. This is not some sina patriotic forum for you to spew Chinese propaganda garbage.

Check your facts before spouting your bull****. Zotye bought several older gen Fiat platforms, including the Palio, Siena, Multipla and Strada, from Fiat.

Wow, that's rich. A newbie with 30 error filled posts calling me out about Chinese cars.

Maybe you should check your own facts. FIAT never sold anything to Zotye. The cars are definitely producing using FIAT tooling but FIAT never got anything for it. You should read up on how the Nanjing-FIAT JV was dissolved.

[Analyst]

So you admit that they were? And some still are?

I've never denied that copies were (and still are) being made.

What I am saying is, others (eg: the Japanese and the Korean) have done it before AND:

I've probably seen every alleged Chinese clone in existence, and most of them fall under these categories:

1) The majority of them come from very small companies in China, with insignificant market share (eg: Shuanghuan, Yema, Huanghai)

2) Licensed copies of older models (eg: the Beijing Auto Mercedes "clone")

3) Concept cars that never made it to production (eg: Geely GE aka Baby Rolls), or cars that never existed in the first place (eg: the BYD T6, a supposed clone of the Porsche Cayenne).

There are very, very few cars that are shameless copies that had significant sales numbers in China.

The only clones that got good sales are the Matiz copy, the Chery QQ and the BYD F3, a Corolla clone.

I've already shown you that GM settled with Chery, so they are legit now.

And the BYD F3... Well, the new BYD F3 looks much more original. They'll get there eventually.

That's why I'm saying the opinions here are misinformed.

The impression that one gets from seeing topics like these is:

1) Every Chinese company is only capable of churning out clones. FALSE.

2) They've never stopped cloning. FALSE...R.

3) Clones are wildly popular in China; everyone wants to buy a clone. FALSE...ST.

4) Chinese automakers will rip off their JV partners, who will do nothing about it. DUMB.

5) All clones are illegal, there's no such thing as licensed copies. DUMBER.

6) The Chinese are only capable of cloning. RACIST

Didn't know about this one. Ripping a JV member off, amazing...

It's not a rip off it's authorized. Allow me to quote myself:

If they are so discontent with these "blatant copies" why don't they walk out of the partnerships? Nobody's forcing them to be partnered with such evil companies.

That tells me they either they aren't copies, or the partners simply don't care. Either way... If these companies, who got their IP so unjustly stolen, are not complaining, why are you?

[bzcat]

Didn't know about this one. Ripping a JV member off, amazing...

What's amazing is that it doesn't happen more often given the power dynamics between Chinese companies and their foreign partners.

[bzcat]

It's not a rip off it's authorized. Allow me to quote myself:

I can assure you 100% that Mercedes did not authorize BAIC to rebadge the B-class.

You can quote yourself until you are blue in the face but that doesn't make you correct.

[Analyst]

How do you walk out on your JV partner? The Chinese Govt says you can't. If you walk away, you are shut out of the Chinese market.

You are clearly some sort of Chinese leg humper. Be objective. These cars are rip offs and people are right to call it as is. This is not some sina patriotic forum for you to spew Chinese propaganda garbage.

OK, let's assume they are unauthorized copies (though there is ZERO evidence supporting this).

If MB or BMW are so unhappy about it, they are free to walk out on their partners and stop producing cars in China. Nothing bars them from selling imported Mercs and Bimmers. They would only be more expensive because of import taxes.

Well, you want to make cars in China? You have to have a partner. It's not like they were somehow forced by the evil Chinese government to make cars in China. They willingly chose to do so, and technology transfer (idiots call it theft) is one of their conditions.

Mercedes and BMW are clearly happy enough to accept these conditions and these copies. Why do you have a problem with it?

Wow, that's rich. A newbie with 30 error filled posts calling me out about Chinese cars.

I'm sorry, but I have this thing called a life, I don't know if you've heard of it. 15,000 posts doesn't automatically give you more knowledge on Chinese cars than me (or anyone else, for that matter).

Maybe you should check your own facts. FIAT never sold anything to Zotye. The cars are definitely producing using FIAT tooling but FIAT never got anything for it. You should read up on how the Nanjing-FIAT JV was dissolved.

Show me credible evidence that says Zotye's FIATs are not made under license. Every article I've come across says they are licensed.

[wisky]

Id love to drive some of these and see how they compare to their "original" counterparts.

Not gonna lie, the Humvee clone and the Unimog clone look pretty awesome!

No shame in their game!

[Mr. Clarkson]

Mercedes and BMW are clearly happy enough to accept these conditions and these copies. Why do you have a problem with it?

I believe BMW and MB both tried to sue the companies that were copying their products. That's an interesting way of measuring being happy enough to accept something.

[Analyst]

I believe BMW and MB both tried to sue the companies that were copying their products. That's an interesting way of measuring being happy enough to accept something.

I am referring to the "copies" made by their Chinese partners, Brilliance and BAIC respectively.

Which brings up a good point. They sued Shuanghuan, why haven't they said a word about the Brilliance and BAIC "copies"? Because they are not unauthorized.

bzcat's assumptions that the copies are unauthorized are completely unsupported by evidence. Yet (s)he still parades them as fact.

[carfanguy]

Just for fun...

Cheeseburger haha

[J-Tim]

"Michael Alone".

[bzcat]

OK, let's assume they are unauthorized copies (though there is ZERO evidence supporting this).

There is literally unlimited number of citation to support this. The B-class rip off shares nothing with the real Mercedes. It just *looks* like the Mercedes. It's a completely different car. How does Mercedes authorize someone to produce a knock off? You are not even making any sense.

If MB or BMW are so unhappy about it, they are free to walk out on their partners and stop producing cars in China. Nothing bars them from selling imported Mercs and Bimmers. They would only be more expensive because of import taxes.

Well, you want to make cars in China? You have to have a partner. It's not like they were somehow forced by the evil Chinese government to make cars in China. They willingly chose to do so, and technology transfer (idiots call it theft) is one of their conditions.

You just answered your own question. Mercedes and BMW can't do anything precisely because it is their own partner doing the rip off.

Mercedes and BMW are clearly happy enough to accept these conditions and these copies. Why do you have a problem with it?

I don't have a problem with it. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your posts are.

I'm sorry, but I have this thing called a life, I don't know if you've heard of it. 15,000 posts doesn't automatically give you more knowledge on Chinese cars than me (or anyone else, for that matter).

Number of posts doesn't matter. But actually knowing things matter. You have demonstrated that you really don't know much about the Chinese car industry.

Show me credible evidence that says Zotye's FIATs are not made under license. Every article I've come across says they are licensed.

Zotye bought the tooling from Nanjing after Nanijing and FIAT agreed to dissolve the JV. FIAT never authorized the transfer but there was nothing they can do. These cars are not licensed by FIAT.

[arethirdytwo]

You think the auto industry is bad, try the cycling world. If you aren't Trek, Specialized and well thats about it then your designs are either being ripped off or your design IS a rip off.

Most of the carbon in this day and age is manufactured in either Taiwan or China. The Taiwan stuff is very nice quality but it is still easy to buy your own branded "Pinnarello" frame for pennies. Sad part is that the brands don't care. Trek and Specialized are big enough to have their own facility/GIANT where you don't see stolen designs for many years. The smaller companies end up just buying the same **** someone sold four years ago for 1/4 of the price. Screw it! Let them make copies!

[Analyst]

There is literally unlimited number of citation to support this. The B-class rip off shares nothing with the real Mercedes. It just *looks* like the Mercedes. It's a completely different car. How does Mercedes authorize someone to produce a knock off? You are not even making any sense.

It's called "licensing." You don't have to license the whole thing. Guangzhou's Trumpchi is riding on an old Alfa platform, but with Guangzhou's own styling.
This is just the other way around, the looks are from Merc, but it's on a Mitsu platform. How retarded do you have to be to not understand this concept?

You just answered your own question. Mercedes and BMW can't do anything precisely because it is their own partner doing the rip off.

They can walk out. They are not doing that.

I don't have a problem with it. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your posts are.

Ridiculous are your wild, unsupported assumptions. Everything tells anyone with a brain that it's licensed: 1) they are partners 2) Merc/BMW isn't saying anything.

Number of posts doesn't matter. But actually knowing things matter. You have demonstrated that you really don't know much about the Chinese car industry.

I demonstrated that? LOL

Zotye bought the tooling from Nanjing after Nanijing and FIAT agreed to dissolve the JV. FIAT never authorized the transfer but there was nothing they can do. These cars are not licensed by FIAT.

Really?

Zotye Holding has bought from Fiat Automobiles the assembly line tooling and intellectual property rights for the Lancia Lybra. The purchase was confirmed by an executive at Fiat and by sources at Zotye.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-177981914.html

That's just one source. There are dozens like it.

You don't have evidence to support anything you say. Just bull**** on top of bull****.
And I am the one who "[doesn't] know much about the Chinese car industry"

[Corbic]

threads like these are goldmines of xenophobia and stereotypes. and im sure the chinese people reading these comments take them as general US concensus... no wonder the world hates you

This IS the general US consensus.

I'm sorry, facts are facts. They straight up copy foreign products and produce them in an inferior cost cutting mannor. Its not even "borrowing ideas" or picking up design cues - its literally stripping an original down, measuring everything and finding a way to make a visually duplicate item at half the cost.

[bzcat]

You think the auto industry is bad, try the cycling world. If you aren't Trek, Specialized and well thats about it then your designs are either being ripped off or your design IS a rip off.

Most of the carbon in this day and age is manufactured in either Taiwan or China. The Taiwan stuff is very nice quality but it is still easy to buy your own branded "Pinnarello" frame for pennies. Sad part is that the brands don't care. Trek and Specialized are big enough to have their own facility/GIANT where you don't see stolen designs for many years. The smaller companies end up just buying the same **** someone sold four years ago for 1/4 of the price. Screw it! Let them make copies!

Bicycle industry is a little different than cars. The Taiwanese companies (Giant, Merida etc) are the world leaders in material innovation. They are the one driving new technologies in frame design, not the boutique firms in Europe or US, who often license these new frame designs and production process from The Taiwanese firms.

Most of the high end road bikes sold in the US are OEM designs by Taiwanese companies sold under various American brands (like Trek). China makes mostly low end parts bin bikes, and of course, knock offs.

[bzcat]

It's called "licensing." You don't have to license the whole thing. Guangzhou's Trumpchi is riding on an old Alfa platform, but with Guangzhou's own styling.
This is just the other way around, the looks are from Merc, but it's on a Mitsu platform. How retarded do you have to be to not understand this concept?

So Mercedes is getting paid by BAIC for making a knockoff of the B-class? Lol... do you even read your own sentence?

Ridiculous are your wild, unsupported assumptions. Everything tells anyone with a brain that it's licensed: 1) they are partners 2) Merc/BMW isn't saying anything.

The only thing that is wild is your claim that Brilliance V5 or BAIC b-class knockoff are licensed. They may be tolerated but it's a giant leap to say they are licensed.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-177981914.html

That's just one source. There are dozens like it.

You don't have evidence to support anything you say. Just bull**** on top of bull****.
And I am the one who "[doesn't] know much about the Chinese car industry"

That article said nothing about the FIAT Palio tooling that were acquired without FIAT's blessing.

[Corbic]

Id love to drive some of these and see how they compare to their "original" counterparts.

Not gonna lie, the Humvee clone and the Unimog clone look pretty awesome!

No shame in their game!

There are 3 companies in China currently ripping off the HMMWV - the best engine offered to date is the ripped off Cummins EQB. It produces around 100hp and they are equipped with 5psd manuals. They use the original commercial geared-hubs and axels as well as the old 80's style frames. They also use steel body construction making them considerably heavier then their American counterparts.

[Analyst]

There is literally unlimited number of citation to support this.

Give me ONE that's even remotely credible.

So Mercedes is getting paid by BAIC for making a knockoff of the B-class? Lol... do you even read your own sentence?.

Why would that be far fetched? They're older-gen cars, that aren't produced anymore.
Doesn't it make business sense to sell the rights and get what basically is free money?

The only thing that is wild is your claim that Brilliance V5 or BAIC b-class knockoff are licensed. They may be tolerated but it's a giant leap to say they are licensed.

Show me your evidence. Oh that's right, you never have any.

That article said nothing about the FIAT Palio tooling that were acquired without FIAT's blessing

Let me get this straight: FIAT saw their Palio tooling being given to Zotye without their consent. Then not only did they do nothing about it, they continued to sell production rights to this evil, communist company? LOL, do you even realize how ridiculous you sound?

[Corbic]

blah bla blah

Analyst - are you, or have you ever been Chinese?

[VadGTI]

Analyst - are you, or have you ever been Chinese?

[Corbic]

Legit question. I want to know what his angle is - I suspect he is a national.

[nemo1ner]

[unleashedd]

This IS the general US consensus.

intellectual property debate is pointless - everyone's ideas come from everyone else. trying to fight for your "rights" to your intellectual property is like trying to copyright the word gymkhana. everything everyone has ever thought of can be attributed to external sources/inputs; intellectual property is hindering the progress of our kind

[vwtoys]

That clearly was not a VW in its prior life according to the Jalopnik article. It's a butchered Peugeot 505.

[NightTrain EX]

I was referring to the guy standing next to it.

[Analyst]

Analyst - are you [Chinese]

No.

or have you ever been Chinese?

What does that even mean?

1. Nice pic of a car that's not made anymore...

2. Nice pic of a logo BYD hasn't used in years...

3. A car that was made by some random guy... Weak, extremely weak. At least he isn't selling conversion kits like these folks. I guess that's representative of the American auto industry, huh?

4. That's an unofficial rendering. Here's what the Huatai B11 actually looks like: