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    Thread: The Chinese clone thread... gone wild

    1. Member arethirdytwo's Avatar
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      02-23-2012 07:14 PM #126
      You think the auto industry is bad, try the cycling world. If you aren't Trek, Specialized and well thats about it then your designs are either being ripped off or your design IS a rip off.

      Most of the carbon in this day and age is manufactured in either Taiwan or China. The Taiwan stuff is very nice quality but it is still easy to buy your own branded "Pinnarello" frame for pennies. Sad part is that the brands don't care. Trek and Specialized are big enough to have their own facility/GIANT where you don't see stolen designs for many years. The smaller companies end up just buying the same **** someone sold four years ago for 1/4 of the price. Screw it! Let them make copies!

    2. 02-23-2012 07:24 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      There is literally unlimited number of citation to support this. The B-class rip off shares nothing with the real Mercedes. It just *looks* like the Mercedes. It's a completely different car. How does Mercedes authorize someone to produce a knock off? You are not even making any sense.
      It's called "licensing." You don't have to license the whole thing. Guangzhou's Trumpchi is riding on an old Alfa platform, but with Guangzhou's own styling.
      This is just the other way around, the looks are from Merc, but it's on a Mitsu platform. How retarded do you have to be to not understand this concept?

      You just answered your own question. Mercedes and BMW can't do anything precisely because it is their own partner doing the rip off.
      They can walk out. They are not doing that.

      I don't have a problem with it. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your posts are.
      Ridiculous are your wild, unsupported assumptions. Everything tells anyone with a brain that it's licensed: 1) they are partners 2) Merc/BMW isn't saying anything.

      Number of posts doesn't matter. But actually knowing things matter. You have demonstrated that you really don't know much about the Chinese car industry.
      I demonstrated that? LOL

      Zotye bought the tooling from Nanjing after Nanijing and FIAT agreed to dissolve the JV. FIAT never authorized the transfer but there was nothing they can do. These cars are not licensed by FIAT.
      Really?

      Zotye Holding has bought from Fiat Automobiles the assembly line tooling and intellectual property rights for the Lancia Lybra. The purchase was confirmed by an executive at Fiat and by sources at Zotye.
      http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-177981914.html

      That's just one source. There are dozens like it.

      You don't have evidence to support anything you say. Just bull**** on top of bull****.
      And I am the one who "[doesn't] know much about the Chinese car industry"
      Last edited by Analyst; 02-23-2012 at 07:26 PM.

    3. 02-23-2012 07:25 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by unleashedd View Post
      threads like these are goldmines of xenophobia and stereotypes. and im sure the chinese people reading these comments take them as general US concensus... no wonder the world hates you
      This IS the general US consensus.

      I'm sorry, facts are facts. They straight up copy foreign products and produce them in an inferior cost cutting mannor. Its not even "borrowing ideas" or picking up design cues - its literally stripping an original down, measuring everything and finding a way to make a visually duplicate item at half the cost.

    4. Member bzcat's Avatar
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      02-23-2012 07:26 PM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by arethirdytwo View Post
      You think the auto industry is bad, try the cycling world. If you aren't Trek, Specialized and well thats about it then your designs are either being ripped off or your design IS a rip off.

      Most of the carbon in this day and age is manufactured in either Taiwan or China. The Taiwan stuff is very nice quality but it is still easy to buy your own branded "Pinnarello" frame for pennies. Sad part is that the brands don't care. Trek and Specialized are big enough to have their own facility/GIANT where you don't see stolen designs for many years. The smaller companies end up just buying the same **** someone sold four years ago for 1/4 of the price. Screw it! Let them make copies!
      Bicycle industry is a little different than cars. The Taiwanese companies (Giant, Merida etc) are the world leaders in material innovation. They are the one driving new technologies in frame design, not the boutique firms in Europe or US, who often license these new frame designs and production process from The Taiwanese firms.

      Most of the high end road bikes sold in the US are OEM designs by Taiwanese companies sold under various American brands (like Trek). China makes mostly low end parts bin bikes, and of course, knock offs.

    5. Member bzcat's Avatar
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      02-23-2012 07:35 PM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by Analyst View Post
      It's called "licensing." You don't have to license the whole thing. Guangzhou's Trumpchi is riding on an old Alfa platform, but with Guangzhou's own styling.
      This is just the other way around, the looks are from Merc, but it's on a Mitsu platform. How retarded do you have to be to not understand this concept?
      So Mercedes is getting paid by BAIC for making a knockoff of the B-class? Lol... do you even read your own sentence?


      Ridiculous are your wild, unsupported assumptions. Everything tells anyone with a brain that it's licensed: 1) they are partners 2) Merc/BMW isn't saying anything.
      The only thing that is wild is your claim that Brilliance V5 or BAIC b-class knockoff are licensed. They may be tolerated but it's a giant leap to say they are licensed.




      http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-177981914.html

      That's just one source. There are dozens like it.

      You don't have evidence to support anything you say. Just bull**** on top of bull****.
      And I am the one who "[doesn't] know much about the Chinese car industry"
      That article said nothing about the FIAT Palio tooling that were acquired without FIAT's blessing.

    6. 02-23-2012 07:36 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by wisky View Post
      Id love to drive some of these and see how they compare to their "original" counterparts.

      Not gonna lie, the Humvee clone and the Unimog clone look pretty awesome!

      No shame in their game!




      There are 3 companies in China currently ripping off the HMMWV - the best engine offered to date is the ripped off Cummins EQB. It produces around 100hp and they are equipped with 5psd manuals. They use the original commercial geared-hubs and axels as well as the old 80's style frames. They also use steel body construction making them considerably heavier then their American counterparts.

    7. 02-23-2012 07:56 PM #132
      There is literally unlimited number of citation to support this.
      Give me ONE that's even remotely credible.

      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      So Mercedes is getting paid by BAIC for making a knockoff of the B-class? Lol... do you even read your own sentence?.
      Why would that be far fetched? They're older-gen cars, that aren't produced anymore.
      Doesn't it make business sense to sell the rights and get what basically is free money?

      The only thing that is wild is your claim that Brilliance V5 or BAIC b-class knockoff are licensed. They may be tolerated but it's a giant leap to say they are licensed.
      Show me your evidence. Oh that's right, you never have any.

      That article said nothing about the FIAT Palio tooling that were acquired without FIAT's blessing
      Let me get this straight: FIAT saw their Palio tooling being given to Zotye without their consent. Then not only did they do nothing about it, they continued to sell production rights to this evil, communist company? LOL, do you even realize how ridiculous you sound?
      Last edited by Analyst; 02-23-2012 at 08:14 PM.

    8. 02-23-2012 08:30 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by Analyst View Post
      blah bla blah
      Analyst - are you, or have you ever been Chinese?

    9. Member VadGTI's Avatar
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      02-23-2012 09:02 PM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
      Analyst - are you, or have you ever been Chinese?
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    10. 02-23-2012 09:16 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by VadGTI View Post
      Legit question. I want to know what his angle is - I suspect he is a national.

    11. Member nemo1ner's Avatar
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      02-23-2012 11:17 PM #136






      //COOLWATERmotorsport
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      02-24-2012 07:51 AM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
      This IS the general US consensus.
      intellectual property debate is pointless - everyone's ideas come from everyone else. trying to fight for your "rights" to your intellectual property is like trying to copyright the word gymkhana. everything everyone has ever thought of can be attributed to external sources/inputs; intellectual property is hindering the progress of our kind
      Quote Originally Posted by wolfcastle View Post
      Who cares if im wrong, its the internet.

    13. Member vwtoys's Avatar
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      02-24-2012 08:59 AM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by nemo1ner View Post

      That clearly was not a VW in its prior life according to the Jalopnik article. It's a butchered Peugeot 505.

    14. 02-24-2012 09:22 AM #139
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      I was referring to the guy standing next to it.
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    15. 02-24-2012 09:32 AM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
      Analyst - are you [Chinese]
      No.

      Quote Originally Posted by Corbic View Post
      or have you ever been Chinese?
      What does that even mean?

      Quote Originally Posted by nemo1ner View Post






      1. Nice pic of a car that's not made anymore...

      2. Nice pic of a logo BYD hasn't used in years...

      3. A car that was made by some random guy... Weak, extremely weak. At least he isn't selling conversion kits like these folks. I guess that's representative of the American auto industry, huh?

      4. That's an unofficial rendering. Here's what the Huatai B11 actually looks like:

      Last edited by Analyst; 02-24-2012 at 09:37 AM.

    16. 02-24-2012 09:37 AM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by nemo1ner View Post






      1. Nice pic of a car that's not made anymore...

      2. Nice pic of a logo BYD hasn't used in years...

      3. A car that was made by some random guy... Weak, extremely weak. At least he isn't selling conversion kits like these folks. I guess that's representative of the American auto industry, huh?

      4. That's an unofficial rendering. Here's what the Huatai B11 actually looks like:


    17. Member arethirdytwo's Avatar
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      02-24-2012 10:15 AM #142
      ... What I just said? Unless you are a major player (Giant, Trek, Spec) your designs are being tossed around Asia pretty often. Not mention Pinnarello/Colnago are NOT boutique. Even their Dogma is built in Taiwan and painted in Italy. For a hefty sum of $5500 frame only.

      We call it boutique but it's not anymore. Take Scott for example. Their CR1 revolutionized the industry about 10 years ago. They developed that frame but even then within a few years the manufacturing companies started selling copies (Fuji).

      The other groups are too big. If they sold off a Specialized design six months in it would be too much and would most likely end a relationship.

      To be honest the bike industry is even more blatant than Auto. I worked in it for 10 years and have toured Treks production as well as Taiwan producers for Zipp and SRAM.


      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      Bicycle industry is a little different than cars. The Taiwanese companies (Giant, Merida etc) are the world leaders in material innovation. They are the one driving new technologies in frame design, not the boutique firms in Europe or US, who often license these new frame designs and production process from The Taiwanese firms.

      Most of the high end road bikes sold in the US are OEM designs by Taiwanese companies sold under various American brands (like Trek). China makes mostly low end parts bin bikes, and of course, knock offs.

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      02-24-2012 10:35 AM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by Analyst View Post
      If they are so discontent with these "blatant copies" why don't they walk out of the partnerships? Nobody's forcing them to be partnered with such evil companies.

      That tells me they either they aren't copies, or the partners simply don't care. Either way... If these companies, who got their IP so unjustly stolen, are not complaining, why are you?



      Check your facts before spouting your bull****. Zotye bought several older gen Fiat platforms, including the Palio, Siena, Multipla and Strada, from Fiat.
      Having spent 3 years in Shanghai, and working with both Western and local clients in the auto industry, I think your a bit naive in your approach.

      Your first statement/open ended question is a pretty simple one to answer: growth. If your a company that wants to grow beyond the nitche volumes of say, Aston, who will never sell volumes enough to want to bypass the heavy tax tariff's that the Chinese government places on 'imports' (I.E. your a outsider who lacks a Chinese partner, regardless of the origin of such parts---for example, Apple products in mainland China are priced higher due to tax relative to the rest of Asia Pacific--despite the fact that their products are manufactured in China.) and is a brand that consumers will happily pay tax for in order to have a luxury brand or import the car on their own etc. So while forging these partnerships may seem strange, it is born out of a company's desire to grow sales and volume within the Chinese market.

      And regarding the relationship between local and western companies, things get REALLY contentious at times, and to not recognize the fact that mainland Chinese society was a closed one by it's governments own admission--means that tradtional business is conducted entirely differently in Chinese boardrooms. There is a LOT of 'compromoses' made to save every last dollar/yuan.If you took a proposal to develop and build a car for the minimum amount of capital--say 70% of what it costs to develop a car from scratch--and include all the content we buyers in other, more developed parts of the world would expect, and took said proposal to the majority of local Chinese car companies, you would be laughed out of the room. It's a very young market--especially from a development standpoint.

      I had an interesting discussion with a few 'ex pat' car guys regarding China. The consumer is maturing much faster then the mainland product. It will be fascinating to see companies adapt to the rapidly changing market.

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      02-24-2012 10:58 AM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by Analyst View Post
      bzcat's assumptions that the copies are unauthorized are completely unsupported by evidence. Yet (s)he still parades them as fact.
      Go read the last 10 years of The Economist, genius. You are either willfully ignorant or are being paid to post propaganda.

      And yes, I spell-checked this post so Vad wouldn't call me out.
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      02-24-2012 02:17 PM #145
      clones, if you ask nicely they will stop after building 50-100 thousand.

      copies, perfectly legal.
      Last edited by l5gcw0b; 02-24-2012 at 02:22 PM.
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      02-24-2012 02:25 PM #146
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      04-22-2012 01:15 PM #147
      i love this thread.
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      04-22-2012 01:31 PM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by J-Tim View Post
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