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    Thread: The 2012 F1 Countdown Thread

    1. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      02-20-2012 04:08 PM #76
      Forget side pods, what stood out at me on the Ferrari comparison was the pretty dramatic change to the front suspension geometry.

    2. Member McBanagon's Avatar
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      02-20-2012 04:22 PM #77
      I can't wait!
      Last edited by McBanagon; 02-20-2012 at 04:26 PM.

    3. Member AHFlynn's Avatar
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      02-20-2012 04:31 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Forget side pods, what stood out at me on the Ferrari comparison was the pretty dramatic change to the front suspension geometry.
      saw something about this on drive the other day.

      Quote Originally Posted by VivaF1
      Ferrari’s Clever Suspension

      Probably the most remarkable feature of this year’s cars has been Ferrari’s return to the use of pull rod suspension at the front of the car. Bucking widespread thinking of the last twenty five years, interspersed by occasional rebels such as Minardi’s PS01 of 2001, Ferrari have followed their own path in search of of improved aerodynamics and a lower centre of gravity. The question many are asking is whether it has compromised the suspension characteristics in the process, though.

      Earlier in the week I looked at the features, advantages and disadvantages of pull and push rod layouts. Ferrari’s reliance on a very low pull rod angle had some observers scratching their heads as traditionally that meant a very inefficient configuration. However, I also noted that the modern trend of angled wishbones helps the situation. Now, having had time to explore the geometry further, it seems that not only do Ferrari fans have nothing to worry about but that The Scuderia’s choice could herald widespread changes in the future.



      The control arms are angled downwards. As well as helping carry the vertical wheel loading, the geometry of downward angled wishbones aids the deflection of the pull rod. As they wheel travels upwards the control arms move towards a more horizontal position with the consequence that the end is horizontally further away from the hub as well as further from the ground. At the angles Ferrari use, that appears to equate to a horizontal movement of roughly 25% of the vertical displacement although this proportion inevitably decreases as the wheel is displaced higher and the wishbones approache horizontal.

      However, at the low pull rod angle of approximately 8°, this horizontal realignment of the suspension becomes more important than the vertical wheel displacement. Less than a seventh of the vertical displacement is transferred to the rocker by the pull rod whereas 95% of the horizontal motion is. In other words, the geometry itself amplifies the deflection. It’s worth noting that the same process occurs with push rod configurations but in this case the effect is detrimental and reduces the compression of the push rod. It’s one reason why McLaren persist with a low nose as it allows them to exploit lower wishbone angles than their rivals.

      The upper and lower control arms are not parallel. The problem with any sideways movement at the wheel is that that would tend to increase tyre wear as the tyre moves laterally against the track surface. However, the upper wishbone is angled more steeply than the lower one (roughly 17° compared with 13°.) It’s a small difference but it means the geometry of the system changes shape as the wheel is deflected upwards. The animation below shows the wheel set at zero camber being repeatedly deflected (zero camber was an arbitrary choice for the animation as it shows the change more clearly, it is likely that Ferrari will run with some degree of negative camber depending on the circuit.) You can see that not only does the wheel hub (right) move outwards but also angles out at the top (positive camber). It’s only a small angle change but it helps reduce the sideways movement at the tyre’s footprint. It’s a trick Ferrari appeared to exploit for the first time last year although McLaren also use a similar trick. Furthermore, the effect will help during cornering where the suspension will adjust to keep the footprint of the loaded outer tyre as high as possible in order to maintain mechanical grip.



      The overall result is that the deflection of the rockers is actually not that different from if they’d used push rods at 30°. So it seems to me that not only have Ferrari got nothing to worry about with their pull rod suspension but that their high-nosed rivals at least, if not the low-nosed McLaren, may have missed a trick.

      Are pull rod suspended front ends here to stay? Much will depend on how future aerodynamic rules are phrased but there may well be more than one example on the grid next year.
      http://www.vivaf1.com/blog/?p=10280

      curious to see how it preforms
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Nah, understeering into a tree in a Honda like a teenage girl ruins your street cred. I'd leave the door to show how hard you are.

    4. Member Tuneman7's Avatar
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      02-20-2012 04:49 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by enigmatic enthusiast View Post
      LOL. I'm not sure who would make that argument. Damon Hill his teammate at williams was better in the wet. Not to mention Micheal shumacher.
      Schumacher only had two race wins during Prost's tenure, neither of which were in the rain. In '93 of the 3 wins Damon Hill had at Williams all were in the dry. Alain Prost took 1st in 2 wet races out of his seven race wins in '93 going on to his eventual final WDC. Obviously, in later years they'd have a reputation for being stronger in the rain but that wasn't during Prost's tenure on the grid.

      During Prost's era, the driver's that were clearly better than him in the rain were Alesi and obviously Senna. That's not to say, Prost couldn't hold his own.

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      02-20-2012 05:24 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Forget side pods, what stood out at me on the Ferrari comparison was the pretty dramatic change to the front suspension geometry.
      a lot of engineers are definitely scratching their heads over the front suspension packaging on the ferrari.

      however, reports from maranello are not good either:

      Quote Originally Posted by Pat Fry says Ferrari not happy with where it is at the moment with new F1 car
      Ferrari has admitted its new car is not delivering what it had been hoped for so far - but it has faith that it can get on top of its issues before the first race of the season.
      rest of article:

      http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97453
      welcome to the layer cake

    6. 02-20-2012 07:11 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Tuneman7 View Post
      Schumacher only had two race wins during Prost's tenure, neither of which were in the rain. In '93 of the 3 wins Damon Hill had at Williams all were in the dry. Alain Prost took 1st in 2 wet races out of his seven race wins in '93 going on to his eventual final WDC. Obviously, in later years they'd have a reputation for being stronger in the rain but that wasn't during Prost's tenure on the grid.

      During Prost's era, the driver's that were clearly better than him in the rain were Alesi and obviously Senna. That's not to say, Prost couldn't hold his own.
      You mean the semi automatic and active suspension years; color me unimpressed, not to mention the coward retired at the end of the season to avoid being teammates with Ayrton. Oh and don't forget he had contractual number one status when teaming with Hill as well.

      Schumacher won a wet race at Spa without the benefit of active suspensions or semi automatic equipment in '92.

      But moving right along. This below is the real question regarding early developments in the pre-season. What exactly is Newey up to with this open slit channeling air through the cockpit?


      edit. Good catch on the suspension arms nick. I'm waiting on a write up by Scarbsf1's blog; whom I believe is writing those articles for autosports
      http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/
      Last edited by enigmatic enthusiast; 02-20-2012 at 07:19 PM.

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      02-20-2012 07:31 PM #82
      per adrian newey:

      Quote Originally Posted by Racecar-Engineering.com
      Newey denies these claims claiming that “it is simply for driver cooling, we relocated the opening which is normally on the tip of the nose of the car back to the hump for aesthetic reasons.”
      Quote Originally Posted by enigmatic enthusiast View Post
      Yo This below is the real question regarding early developments in the pre-season. What exactly is Newey up to with this open slit channeling air through the cockpit?
      everything is speculation now, until the australia race, otherwise i doubt we'll know what it is. if redbull proves to have a significant advantage and wins that race, i can guarantee mclaren and other teams will file a protest about the opening and claim it's being used for an aero advantage.
      welcome to the layer cake

    8. 02-20-2012 07:51 PM #83
      Looks to be quite uncomfortable if the rain really starts coming down.

      I would also like to understand Ferrari's philosophy with the front nose. Where other teams appear to be channeling air with their respective hump noses, Ferrari simply seems to be redirecting it. I really cannot fathom the advantage of Ferrari's front nose in respect to the other teams.

    9. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 12:00 AM #84
      I fear Vettel is going to make it 3.

      But I hope Button has another strong year and I hope Kimi is right up there.

      If I were to rank the top driver's skill I'd guess it's probably: Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button, Massa, Webber

    10. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 12:40 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      I fear Vettel is going to make it 3.

      But I hope Button has another strong year and I hope Kimi is right up there.

      If I were to rank the top driver's skill I'd guess it's probably: Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button, Massa, Webber
      I hate Webber, but he definitely deserves to be ahead of Massa, lol. At least Webbo can get through a wet race facing in the right direction more often than not.

    11. Member AHFlynn's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 12:44 AM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      I hate Webber, but he definitely deserves to be ahead of Massa, lol. At least Webbo can get through a wet race facing in the right direction more often than not.
      ya, id put webber ahead of button personally. his ability is overshadowed by vettel and the abilities of his car last year, but the guy really is a hell of a race car driver.
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Nah, understeering into a tree in a Honda like a teenage girl ruins your street cred. I'd leave the door to show how hard you are.

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      02-21-2012 12:50 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      I fear Vettel is going to make it 3.

      But I hope Button has another strong year and I hope Kimi is right up there.

      If I were to rank the top driver's skill I'd guess it's probably: Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button, Massa, Webber
      I'd put Nico ahead of Weber, and Button ahead of Kimi. Kimi has more raw speed, but Button knows how to manage a race distance. When he retires from F1, he'll be a great sportscar racer.

    13. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 01:04 AM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      I'd put Nico ahead of Weber, and Button ahead of Kimi. Kimi has more raw speed, but Button knows how to manage a race distance. When he retires from F1, he'll be a great sportscar racer.
      Nico hasn't done sh*t all, really; I don't get why so many people have such a hard-on for him, though I never understood the love for Kubica, either.

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      02-21-2012 01:06 AM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Nico hasn't done sh*t all, really; I don't get why so many people have such a hard-on for him, though I never understood the love for Kubica, either.
      No ones got a hard-on for Nico. But tell me what Weber's accomplished to be on that list? I certainly think Nico is faster and more consistent than Weber. Had Nico had the RBR the last two years, he'd have won a handful of races too.

    15. 02-21-2012 01:19 AM #90
      If Webber could get his arse out of the starting gates properly he could be much more of a threat. Plus his inferiority complex doesn't help him either; I would put him ahead of Massa however. Not really sure why Ferrari is keeping him around. YOu would think they would find themselves some young up and coming Italian to satisfy the tifosi.

      I also to don't see what the big fuss about nico either. He has done nothing to impress me.

      Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Button, Webber

    16. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 01:21 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      No ones got a hard-on for Nico. But tell me what Weber's accomplished to be on that list? I certainly think Nico is faster and more consistent than Weber. Had Nico had the RBR the last two years, he'd have won a handful of races too.
      Plenty of people have a hard-on for Nico, just as they do/did for Kubica. And no, Nico is not consistent; he often finds himself going backwards in the race.

      Webber isn't that great either in my eyes; all I said is that he's better than Massa.

    17. Member AHFlynn's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 01:21 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by enigmatic enthusiast View Post
      If Webber could get his arse out of the starting gates properly he could be much more of a threat. Plus his inferiority complex doesn't help him either; I would put him ahead of Massa however. Not really sure why Ferrari is keeping him around. YOu would think they would find themselves some young up and coming Italian to satisfy the tifosi.
      speaking of, i just found out that there are no italians in f1 this year.
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Nah, understeering into a tree in a Honda like a teenage girl ruins your street cred. I'd leave the door to show how hard you are.

    18. Member nickthaskater's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 01:51 AM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by AHFlynn View Post
      speaking of, i just found out that there are no italians in f1 this year.
      Yep, Trulli was the last of them. That said, Ferrari has signed on two young Italians to their young driver program... Massa can't be around much longer

    19. Member AHFlynn's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 01:54 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by nickthaskater View Post
      Yep, Trulli was the last of them. That said, Ferrari has signed on two young Italians to their young driver program... Massa can't be around much longer
      i wonder when the next american will be in f1. any idea of anyone in development?
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Nah, understeering into a tree in a Honda like a teenage girl ruins your street cred. I'd leave the door to show how hard you are.

    20. Member Tuneman7's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 02:04 AM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by AHFlynn View Post
      i wonder when the next american will be in f1. any idea of anyone in development?
      Alexander Rossi seems like a strong prospect moving forward.

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      02-21-2012 03:40 AM #96
      conor daly (derek daly's son) is another potential future candidate for F1. i believe he's started testing for Lotus in GP3 this week.
      welcome to the layer cake

    22. Member Peloton25's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 03:53 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by AHFlynn View Post
      i wonder when the next american will be in f1. any idea of anyone in development?


      >8^)
      ER

    23. Member RacingManiac's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 09:29 AM #98
      Nico and Michael's new steed for the year...

      http://www.autosport.com/gallery/index.php/id/2713

      Nothing particularly stand out for the car, though it is one of the last big team with unveil the 2012 car...

    24. Member hushypushy's Avatar
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      02-21-2012 12:26 PM #99
      It's interesting how high noses were deemed unsafe, so they lowered them...and they all got needle-nose pointy. I wonder how those pointy tips will fare in a collision with another car, or even a fleshy creature...
      Want even more hushypushy? Automotive photography and journalism for the sophisticated gearhead: Star Road. [Updated 8/16]

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      02-22-2012 02:33 PM #100
      apparently mclaren is looking fast this year, and im getting more and more pumped for this season.

      Quote Originally Posted by seb vettel
      "I think McLaren looked very strong today," Vettel is quoted as saying by Autosport. "For the rest it is too early.

      "I haven't seen all the lap times yet, I have only had a couple of looks on the long runs that Lewis did today - they seemed to be quite interesting."
      http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227...ok-competitive

      Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton
      Lewis Hamilton is delighted with McLaren's work on the first two days of testing in Barcelona after completing more than 1 000kms.

      The 2008 World Champion completed 120 laps on Wednesday to go with the 114 laps he did on the opening day. It's a far cry from 2011 when McLaren were close to bottom in the mileage stakes during pre-season testing.

      Hamilton's MP4-27 was sixth fastest with a 1:23.806, but the team focused on full race simulation most of the day.

      "To have completed more than 1000km in the past two days is incredibly encouraging - the whole team should feel proud," he said.

      "The car behaves really well in the high-speed corners - I think the baseline of our car is higher than it was last year - and it's better overall at high-speed. It's performing well in Turns Three and Nine, too."
      http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227...Barcelona-form
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Nah, understeering into a tree in a Honda like a teenage girl ruins your street cred. I'd leave the door to show how hard you are.

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