Should VW bring the Passat Alltrack to North America?

[zhenya00]

True, but keep in mind, these tend to be family cars. Famlies need room. And at that price point, there are a LOT of nice and very roomy SUVs out there that make the Passat seem a little ridiculous.

Just my opinion from someone who went through this excercise a year ago.

Your experience is why the wagon has all but disappeared from the US market. There is, however, a small contingent of buyers who will buy a wagon over an SUV despite the size limitations. At this point, those buyers have very few choices available. The car would sell, it's just a matter of whether the volumes are worth it to VW.

[gnillort]

The Outback is a HUGE player in the USA, VW needs to be in that niche. Build it in TN To make it price competitive.

[Captain Spongeworthy]

The Outback is a HUGE player in the USA, VW needs to be in that niche. Build it in TN To make it price competitive.

exactly

[GolfVIDriver]

You are one of very few people who would cross-shop the Equinox with a Sportswagen. For most people it's either one or the other - the demographics are generally worlds apart. I live in a town with a huge number of wagon owners, and know personally probably 20+ of them, and I can't think of a single one of them that would consider an Equinox. I know I wouldn't after several rental experiences.

That said, the Sportswagen is generally a bit too small for most people who might consider a wagon over a crossover or small suv. The Passat Alltrack would hopefully be large enough that the slight advantage you give to the Equinox would become even smaller.

Ithaca is...well, a unique demographic...wouldn't you agree?

We wanted a family/town car. Something we could take people out to dinner in, throw the dogs in the back and go on long trips, and have something that has cargo capacity. Nice-to-haves were towing capacity and AWD.

You need to drive a new Equinox, at the dealer. I have personally "sold" three of them to friends after a ride in ours. When we went to go get ours last year, we had such a hard time finding the right one we had to settle for the last correct spec in the area, and it was over 60 miles away. They sell fast. We are so tickled with the Equinox we're planning on leasing another if nothing else interesting comes out.

The JSW is too small. We learned that the hard way when we tried to get a baby seat into the back and realized the front seat would need to come forward too much to make the car practical. Like i said, we WANTED the car to work...and I was willing to give up AWD on top of it.

If we could have given up leather, I could have made the JSW and Equinox V6 AWD more or less the same price. After negotiating, the JSW and our Equinox were only $2,000 apart in sale price, and at that point it was a no brainer.

[GolfVIDriver]

Your experience is why the wagon has all but disappeared from the US market. There is, however, a small contingent of buyers who will buy a wagon over an SUV despite the size limitations. At this point, those buyers have very few choices available. The car would sell, it's just a matter of whether the volumes are worth it to VW.

Hmmm. Hard to say. I agree there IS a wagon segment in this market. But I don't think its as big as some of you think it is, and the costs to bring something like the Passat over don't really make a good business case.

THere are very few choices in the market due to the fact that there are very few (albiet passionate) buyers in the market.

Once we removed passion from the equation, the SUV made a really strong case for itself. For our needs, it was absolutely the right choice.

[zhenya00]

Indeed it is.

But there are a handful of pockets like it, especially in the NE, to some extent in the Rockies and the West coast - places where Outbacks and XC70's sell.

I have driven the Equinox as a rental a couple of times and I'm sorry I can't share your enthusiasm. Oh well.

My co-worker recently purchased a TDI/DSG Sportswagen (replacing an older V70). He has two kids and the car is big enough for his car seats (not infant seats), but small enough that they generally take his wife's XC70 on trips. I'm hoping the Alltrack could bridge that gap.

[GolfVIDriver]

Indeed it is.

But there are a handful of pockets like it, especially in the NE, to some extent in the Rockies and the West coast - places where Outbacks and XC70's sell.

I have driven the Equinox as a rental a couple of times and I'm sorry I can't share your enthusiasm. Oh well.

My co-worker recently purchased a TDI/DSG Sportswagen (replacing an older V70). He has two kids and the car is big enough for his car seats (not infant seats), but small enough that they generally take his wife's XC70 on trips. I'm hoping the Alltrack could bridge that gap.

We agree to disagree then. The Equinox has movable rear seats that has already paid for themselves a couple of times. I just love the package the Equinox has, and it occupies a place in the market that no other smaller SUV occupies.

The other problem is the Alltrack is going to be too much money. $30,000 is still a lot of money to most people buying family cars. A diesel Alltrack will most likely come in at $40,000. A Toureg comes in at $43,000. Frankly, I would rather see VW come out with a 'tweener SUV between the Touareg and the Tiguan.

[2VWatatime]

The Outback is a HUGE player in the USA, VW needs to be in that niche. Build it in TN To make it price competitive.

Yeah, that's a huge niche...

The other problem is the Alltrack is going to be too much money. $30,000 is still a lot of money to most people buying family cars. A diesel Alltrack will most likely come in at $40,000.

You're on TCL, where any "diesel = wowgottahaveit" , plus "air con is sooo overrated and if VW were serious about selling they'd delete that for $10,000 savings", and "who needs power windows in a VW if I can just get the biggest diesel they offer in a stripped model + 5 speed". Oh, and TCL is also the land o'make belive in which Subaru = major US seller...

[gnillort]

Wagons will sell, except for the fact that the car companies don't want to market them, and instead want to market high profit margin items like these silly cross overs which are just blown up wagons.

If anyone is in doubt the Outback is nothing more than a slightly raised
Legacy Wagon.

[zhenya00]

The other problem is the Alltrack is going to be too much money. $30,000 is still a lot of money to most people buying family cars. A diesel Alltrack will most likely come in at $40,000. A Toureg comes in at $43,000. Frankly, I would rather see VW come out with a 'tweener SUV between the Touareg and the Tiguan.

I think if it went after the higher-end Outback and XC70 owners, it would do ok. As mentioned, those cars sell for mid-30's, and I would think VW should be able to hit the $35-37k price point given MSRP on the current diesel Sportswagen or Passat. Plenty of crossovers and cute-utes sell at 40k, so the market is there.

[J-Tim]

Plenty of crossovers and cute-utes sell at 40k, so the market is there.

There are still plenty of people who didn't want to be bus drivers as kids.

[Gbeav]

I think it would be awesome but it won't sell well.

VW high end stuff never sells well because it crosses the fine line of price compared to the Audi lineup.

[Arju]

This:

Your experience is why the wagon has all but disappeared from the US market. There is, however, a small contingent of buyers who will buy a wagon over an SUV despite the size limitations. At this point, those buyers have very few choices available. The car would sell, it's just a matter of whether the volumes are worth it to VW.

And this:

The other problem is the Alltrack is going to be too much money. $30,000 is still a lot of money to most people buying family cars. A diesel Alltrack will most likely come in at $40,000. A Toureg comes in at $43,000. Frankly, I would rather see VW come out with a 'tweener SUV between the Touareg and the Tiguan.

Personally I would rather see an A6 Avant TDI. With enough torque to be plenty quick enough compared to the 3.0T, it would be a great alternative at a sustainable pricepoint once you add AWD and all the goodies. Unfortunately a combination of lower prices in North America, low demand and ZOMG SUV IS SAFE will prevent these configurations from arriving here. Besides, VWAG would rather have you buy a Q7 TDI, something with a nice profit margin built in

Not getting these niche vehicles is part of the reason VWAG is making inroads right now. People want cheap VWs, luxurious Audis and ZOMG SUVs instead. If that allows great cars like the TTRS, RS5, Golf R and so on, I am not opposed. It would be nice to have a diesel, AWD wagon though

[joe97]

In the US up until last year VW and Subaru had similar sales number in the US. The Outback is popular in snowy climates in the US and I am shocked VW would not offer something like this in the US to take sales away from Subaru. In 2011 the Subaru Outback sold over 100,000 cars in the US. VW would be stupid to not offer something like this.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

Except VW likely won't be able to offer it along the same pricing range as the Outback while sustaining some type of a profit. And, Subaru has some of the most loyal owners out there; VW, not so much.

[mkultra_]

They would sell like 10 of these...I voted keep it in Europe.

This wagon is not comparable to an SUV/CUV in the American market, American's wouldn't know what to make of a Passat wagon w/ cladding that costs 35k+...

A 'plain' Passat wagon with reasonable pricing, yes, but this is definitely a no.

[feels_road]

Is this the Q3 sized vehicle thing?

No - the Q3 is the size of the Tiguan.

Given the numbers they could sell it at, there is no way VW could make this profitable in the US. It clearly would be more expensive than an R, so it would fall around $40,000 with the frugal, better engines (all-new 2.0T or all-new ~190hp 2.0TDI). Right now, they need one or two roomier SUV/crossover(s) built at Tennessee, and a Routan replacement (if they want to enter that market). The Alltrack would only make sense if there was a Tennessee-built follow-up-- but it appears VW has other things in mind for the next five years, or so.

I'd buy the 3.0TDI Q5, instead, and not look back.

[Captain Spongeworthy]

They would sell like 10 of these...I voted keep it in Europe.

This wagon is not comparable to an SUV/CUV in the American market, American's wouldn't know what to make of a Passat wagon w/ cladding that costs 35k+...

A 'plain' Passat wagon with reasonable pricing, yes, but this is definitely a no.

I have to disagree with you. Believe it or not, in the States these vehicles sold quite well in the past years and now sought after in the used car market:

[John Y]

I would definitely consider one...it's a very cool car if you ask me, that meets more than a few of my needs and aspirations for a car.

With that said, I see no way they could make this commercially viable in the States, unfortunately - too damned expensive.

Joining in the earlier debate however, I take great pleasure in the fact that I helped convince a good friend (lifelong Volvo and then Honda - minivan - driver) to buy a Jetta Sportwagen TDI last year, with DSG. He and his wife have 3 kids, and it is their road trip vehicle of choice, it seems - they love it. He's either 5'11 or 6 ft, too, yet they still make it work and enjoy it.

[2VWatatime]

I have to disagree with you. Believe it or not, in the States these vehicles sold quite well in the past years and now sought after in the used car market:

? No, they didn't. They were niche vehicles in small volumes targeted at small markets. Not top 30 car sales figures at all.

[feels_road]

Hannover, Germany

I don't/didn't remember this. Perhaps that's just Alzheimer's and my old age, or worse, a combination of the two...

[Mike!]

There's quite a bit of ignorance in this thread. For a span of the last decade, the Outback and XC70 consistently outsold their Legacy Wagon and V70 counterparts, not to mention other wagons like the Passat. I will grant that it's a niche, but it is a much larger one than, say, $25k rwd sport coupes, and one with significantly less development costs.

VW's late to the party though. It might have been a guaranteed hit 5 years ago, but the current Outback and XC60 have grown even more successful than the raised & cladded wagons that used to be their brands' volume sellers.

[zhenya00]

There's quite a bit of ignorance in this thread. For a span of the last decade, the Outback and XC70 consistently outsold their Legacy Wagon and V70 counterparts, not to mention other wagons like the Passat. I will grant that it's a niche, but it is a much larger one than, say, $25k rwd sport coupes, and one with significantly less development costs.

VW's late to the party though. It might have been a guaranteed hit 5 years ago, but the current Outback and XC60 have grown even more successful than the raised & cladded wagons that used to be their brands' volume sellers.

I don't think they are too late. The Outback swelled enough in size to turn off many loyal buyers (although it now picks up buyers who would otherwise choose a larger crossover or small suv), and as I noted earlier, the XC70 gets very poor fuel economy. Those are the only two players in the market right now - there is room for more. This would slot nicely in their lineup between the Tiguan (stupid small) and the Touareg (stupid expensive).

[MatchStick]

I think if it went after the higher-end Outback and XC70 owners, it would do ok. As mentioned, those cars sell for mid-30's, and I would think VW should be able to hit the $35-37k price point given MSRP on the current diesel Sportswagen or Passat. Plenty of crossovers and cute-utes sell at 40k, so the market is there.

now you are further fracturing the market. no one buys 3.6R Outbacks... it's a niche of a niche...

2.5i Outback - you get AWD and can get one out the door for ~ $26k
3.6R Outback - probably almost all special orders, easily in the $35k+ range
XC70 - consider themselves luxury buyers, over $40k

So VW would I think we agree be by in the 3.6R area, where even Subaru can't sell cars at this time...

anyway, people's view of this segment is colored by where they live. it's like when I was shocked Saab was in dire straits. then I realized, I live in Fancy CT...

[John Y]

I don't/didn't remember this. Perhaps that's just Alzheimer's and my old age, or worse, a combination of the two...

Ja klar, ich bin in August nach Hannover umgezogen! Der GTI und Ich dürfen jetzt mit Vmax fahren...auch wenn meine Freundin das nicht so doll findet.

I guess I should change it to "Brooklyn and Hannover" - the ties that bind.

[surefooted]

Many customers looking at the Passat and sportwagen are demanding an all wheel drive option, and it seems like the Subaru Outbacks are selling like hot cakes, so i say why not?

No. Because they couldn't sell it anywhere near the Outback.

[paul99]

Audi will not allow it, they are bringing A4 allroad to North America and they do not want cheaper VW Passat alltrack to cut Audi Sales. Will it ? Yes or no, depends what is included, but knowing Audi/VW short side decisions it will not come. they put money more on SUV CUV, TUV, AUV.. that North America loves so much

[lonewolf]

it boils down to cost competitiveness. It they can price it very closely to the outback and with top end going towards the Volvos, I think they would sell OK. It won;t be a high volumes by any means, but a good satellite to main Passat line.

[Turbio!]

I'd like one, but nobody should try to convince themselves there's more of a market for this than the Passat-based 3-row crossover or the next-gen Tiguan, which VW is and should be actually focusing on for this market.

[6cylVWguy]

Audi will not allow it, they are bringing A4 allroad to North America and they do not want cheaper VW Passat alltrack to cut Audi Sales. Will it ? Yes or no, depends what is included, but knowing Audi/VW short side decisions it will not come. they put money more on SUV CUV, TUV, AUV.. that North America loves so much

That seems unlikely. The more likely issue is that in the US the VW will be priced fairly similarly to the A4 Allroad and it's probably not all the much bigger than the current A4 as the Passat is riding on the older platform.

[GCAutoparts]

We need to get Jamie involved ASAP……… VW needs to step up to the plate and offer North America an Option of a Wagon and this would be the perfect fit. Model it after the R20 – Golf R Petition, hell limit the amount of Wagons to North America.

[R3Drew]

Wagon

Expensiveish

European


Not.

Gonna.

Happen.

[Turbio!]

I will grant that it's a niche, but it is a much larger one than, say, $25k rwd sport coupes, and one with significantly less development costs.
.

But real crossovers can do many times the volume. Yes, the Outback does a decent job, the XC70 much less so, but neither of them are volume sellers. Honda sells nearly as many CR-Vs as it does Civics. VW doesn't need an insignificant niche model, it needs a volume crossover that's not undersized or half-assed.

We need to get Jamie involved ASAP……… VW needs to step up to the plate and offer North America an Option of a Wagon and this would be the perfect fit. Model it after the R20 – Golf R Petition, hell limit the amount of Wagons to North America.

Why bother? I mean, sure, I'd like one. It'd work great for me as an AWD daily for me or for my wife to take when it's snowy. But VW doesn't need wagons, because nobody actually bought them. They need crossovers, because they're a license to print money. There's no meaningful difference between a raised wagon and a crossover anyway.

[zaYG]

People who don't think Outbacks or XC70s are serious sellers need to visit New England

[Turbio!]

People who don't think Outbacks or XC70s are serious sellers need to visit New England

I've been. I've also lived in Boulder, CO, the largest Subaru town in America according to the sales stats. It's still just not that much. They only sell like 7000 a month, nationally. Not insignificant, but the buying habits of middle-aged Snow Belt empty-nesters with Golden Retrievers are not a guide to what sells seriously. Serious sales are nearly 19,000 CR-Vs and 17,000 Escapes a month.

[zaYG]

I've been. I've also lived in Boulder, CO, the largest Subaru town in America according to the sales stats. It's still just not that much. They only sell like 7000 a month, nationally. Not insignificant, but the buying habits of middle-aged Snow Belt empty-nesters with Golden Retrievers are not a guide to what sells seriously. Serious sales are nearly 19,000 CR-Vs and 17,000 Escapes a month.

I will admit I don't see many newer Outbacks. I'm too lazy to look it up but I'm going to guess the last few generations probably sold quite a bit more.