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    Thread: Alternative to Catch Can!!

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      02-23-2012 02:13 PM #1
      Living in wintery North Dakota conditions, I have to deal with the moisture/PCV related issues that plague our cars during short winter trips. The consensus seems to be that a catch can is the best solution. Well a catch can is a PITA, it needs to be continually emptied, and your dipstick needs to be checked very frequently(for the record I do check mine every fillup) so you don't run out of oil, because the can does what it is supposed to do it catches everything(mostly).

      There is a better solution though, its called an air/oil seperator, the STi boys have them, why don't we? Well I have emailed Crawford Performance(they built Ken Block's vehicles), and they are willing to develop an AOS for us, if they have enough buyers. For those of you that don't know what an AOS is or how it works, there is TONS of info out there just check out a subie forum, but the link below is a pretty good place to start. If we can get enough buyers for Crawford, they will do the appropriate Research/Development so that it works as flawlessly on our GTi's as the STi's.

      http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-lite...-answered.html

      http://www.crawfordperformance.com/

    2. 02-23-2012 02:29 PM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by Kelion View Post
      Living in wintery North Dakota conditions, I have to deal with the moisture/PCV related issues that plague our cars during short winter trips. The consensus seems to be that a catch can is the best solution. Well a catch can is a PITA, it needs to be continually emptied, and your dipstick needs to be checked very frequently(for the record I do check mine every fillup) so you don't run out of oil, because the can does what it is supposed to do it catches everything(mostly).

      There is a better solution though, its called an air/oil seperator, the STi boys have them, why don't we? Well I have emailed Crawford Performance(they built Ken Block's vehicles), and they are willing to develop an AOS for us, if they have enough buyers. For those of you that don't know what an AOS is or how it works, there is TONS of info out there just check out a subie forum, but the link below is a pretty good place to start. If we can get enough buyers for Crawford, they will do the appropriate Research/Development so that it works as flawlessly on our GTi's as the STi's.

      http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-lite...-answered.html

      http://www.crawfordperformance.com/
      I think LouR32 is in the final steps of making something of the sort using the Mann Provent separator.

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      02-23-2012 02:45 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by crew219 View Post
      I think LouR32 is in the final steps of making something of the sort using the Mann Provent separator.
      Yup I have seen his thread over on GolfMK6.com, however he doesn't go into much detail of where all the lines are gonna run specifically how is it going to route the oil return back to the pan, Crawford will do the research and make it as effective and efficient as possible.
      As well as the Provent not being designed with our specific engine in mind(I'm not saying it won't be effective), there is also still a filter element, which means it can get clogged, or frozen(that dang winter again), and that equates to maintenance, the Crawford design, is 100% MAINTENANCE FREE, you install it and never touch it again.

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      02-24-2012 08:38 AM #4
      What number are they looking at to get this available? I would be in if the price was reasonable.

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      02-24-2012 12:38 PM #5
      They said 100-200, and the price I would assume would be comparable to STi version (380-400) but you can see where price comes from just be looking at them....I'll email them again let them know I'm generating interest and I'll see if they can give me some numbers


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      02-24-2012 12:45 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by Kelion View Post
      They said 100-200, and the price I would assume would be comparable to STi version (380-400) but you can see where price comes from just be looking at them....I'll email them again let them know I'm generating interest and I'll see if they can give me some numbers


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      Even in that price range its cheaper then some options out there that you have to check every couple weeks.

      Keep us updated!

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      02-24-2012 04:05 PM #7
      don't we already have an air/oil separator stock?
      2007 VW EOS 2.0T, APR stage 2
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    8. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      02-24-2012 04:15 PM #8
      yes.
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      02-24-2012 06:52 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by theblue View Post
      don't we already have an air/oil separator stock?
      Yes sort of, not very effective which is why everyone gets a catch can, a AOS is just more efficient than a catch can, plus you don't ever need to touch it after you install it, get it and forget it.

      http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/golfgo...golfengine.pdf

      Anytime your engine is under a vacuum(basically anytime you aren't under boost), you can caking your intake valves with oil.

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      02-25-2012 01:13 AM #10
      it is effective... its just that we dont have fuel washing our valves that is the issue...
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      02-25-2012 01:34 PM #11
      Yes it's a consequence of the direct injection, oil coating the valves is why everyone gets a catch can, but an AOS is a better solution


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    12. 02-25-2012 02:36 PM #12
      this may help keep your intercooler pipes more clean, but the gunk on the valves is also from weeping valve seals, by design. This may delay valve cleaning, but not preclude it.

    13. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      02-25-2012 07:58 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Kelion View Post
      Yes it's a consequence of the direct injection, oil coating the valves is why everyone gets a catch can, but an AOS is a better solution


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      negative ghost rider. the stock separators are built into the head. very decent.

      all your going to be doing is separating out some oil and fuel from the water and deposit it back into the pan.
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      02-26-2012 01:23 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by Krieger View Post
      negative ghost rider. the stock separators are built into the head. very decent.

      all your going to be doing is separating out some oil and fuel from the water and deposit it back into the pan.
      So what you are trying to say is that people DO NOT get catch cans for the purpose of keep oil out of intake charge?


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    15. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      02-26-2012 10:19 PM #15
      if its a recirc can, there will be oil getting into the intake charge... its just less direct. the only one ive seen that filters out a good portion of the gases and oils is the mann provent. I dump to atmosphere, so theoretically i should get no oil or gas into my intake air.

      my buddy down the road has an 05 or 06 wrx with an oil separator and it doesnt really clean out ALL of the stuff. when we pull the hoses they still show PCV oils and stuff in them, and the return line to the block is pretty goopy, so its definitely doing a good job, but not great.

      they just have great results on subies because they have fuel washing everything. If these were so great, every aftermarket would have them, no? It's still a band-aid.
      2006 Audi A3 | 2.0T | 6MT | APR Stage 2+ | Fully loaded ECU | FK grill | EJ CAI | BSH TBP |EJ DV Reloc. | Eurojet TBE | EuroJet Catch Tank | Cross drilled and Slotted Rotors | EBC "Redstuff" Kevlar | Raceland Coilovers | Forge Side to Side Short Shifter | Forge Front to Back Short Shifter | Devil's Own DVC-30 Methanol injection | BSH RSB | BSH Motor mount Kit | 42 DD Shifter Bushings | HPFP Stage 1 upgrade |

    16. 02-27-2012 02:39 PM #16
      A catch can IS an air/ oil separator. The Crawford thing in the OP would do nothing that a catch can wouldn't do (cept' dump it all back into the oil pan) unless the hoses were routed differently. The catch can or AOS is only as good as it's baffles.

      The funny thing is that you only need a catch can because you have a catch can. The whole PCV blockoff plate thing was only an answer to boost backing up from the intake manifold into the PCV and destroying it's check valve. The blockoff plate reroutes the breather lines and eliminates the PCV. Without vacuum from the manifold the factory oil separators (one in the oil filter housing and one in the valve cover) don't work very well. So now you run a 3rd AOS (the catch can) to catch what the factory setup misses. The factory setup works fine when it has continuous vacuum in the stock setup. In the end you only end up with a setup that cures the boost hitting the valve cover, and may work just as well at best as the stock system for filtering oil.

      The only reason the aftermarket cans work better in this setup is because the are made of metal and stay colder than the rest of the system so they condense the oil/water/fuel vapor better, which is why they work alot better in the winter

      Something like the Mann Provent does a pretty good job filtering the vapor out of the air it does see, but I doubt you'll notice a difference over a catch can at all. It's obviously not gonna do a thing for the oil from the valve seals and just like every other setup it's before the turbo, so any oil weaping from the turbo shaft seals is still gonna make it's way in.

      The best way to do it is to run a metal can as far away from heat as possible, I made a stainless can that mounts inside the front bumper and uses a solenoid valve to drain it. The way aftermarket systems are routed is a problem too. If you were to add a check valve and find a pressure limiting valve you could go back to the intake manifold for vacuum. You would be re-creating the stock PCV system using stronger aftermarket parts, this would make your factory AOS's work well again. I may do this when I re-do the Lines to my can with AN fittings, the check valves are easy, but I'm not sure about a vacuum limiting valve that will work with AN fittings. Even then, there will be plenty of crud on the valves and in the intercooler, but it's nice to have a setup that works as well as it possibly can.
      Last edited by blackvento36; 02-27-2012 at 02:42 PM.

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      02-28-2012 12:52 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by Krieger View Post
      if its a recirc can, there will be oil getting into the intake charge... its just less direct. the only one ive seen that filters out a good portion of the gases and oils is the mann provent. I dump to atmosphere, so theoretically i should get no oil or gas into my intake air.
      This AOS from Crawford needs to filters and there is thousands of people with proven results, all you have to do is a little research? When a big name like Ken Block has is cars built by them I'm pretty sure they know their stuff.

      Quote Originally Posted by Krieger View Post
      my buddy down the road has an 05 or 06 wrx with an oil separator and it doesnt really clean out ALL of the stuff. when we pull the hoses they still show PCV oils and stuff in them, and the return line to the block is pretty goopy, so its definitely doing a good job, but not great.


      they just have great results on subies because they have fuel washing everything. If these were so great, every aftermarket would have them, no? It's still a band-aid.
      Not all AOS are created equal, Crawford AOS, is designed with winter drivers in mind, they circulate coolant through the unit so that is DOES get to engine temperature, the reason for this is, things that can evaporate will not evaporate with they condense instead. And yes Suby does not have direction injection, but NO oil gets into intake air charge, and there is PROOF of this on the interwebs. It may still be just a band-aid for your 2.0T, but it is a BETTER band-aid then a CC.

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      02-28-2012 12:58 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by blackvento36 View Post
      A catch can IS an air/ oil separator. The Crawford thing in the OP would do nothing that a catch can wouldn't do (cept' dump it all back into the oil pan) unless the hoses were routed differently. The catch can or AOS is only as good as it's baffles.
      Yes, basically same purpose as CC, just better for reasons I've already gone into, plus it is more effective.(See my reply to Krieger)

      Quote Originally Posted by blackvento36 View Post
      The only reason the aftermarket cans work better in this setup is because the are made of metal and stay colder than the rest of the system so they condense the oil/water/fuel vapor better, which is why they work alot better in the winter

      Something like the Mann Provent does a pretty good job filtering the vapor out of the air it does see, but I doubt you'll notice a difference over a catch can at all. It's obviously not gonna do a thing for the oil from the valve seals and just like every other setup it's before the turbo, so any oil weaping from the turbo shaft seals is still gonna make it's way in.

      The best way to do it is to run a metal can as far away from heat as possible, I made a stainless can that mounts inside the front bumper and uses a solenoid valve to drain it. The way aftermarket systems are routed is a problem too. If you were to add a check valve and find a pressure limiting valve you could go back to the intake manifold for vacuum. You would be re-creating the stock PCV system using stronger aftermarket parts, this would make your factory AOS's work well again. I may do this when I re-do the Lines to my can with AN fittings, the check valves are easy, but I'm not sure about a vacuum limiting valve that will work with AN fittings. Even then, there will be plenty of crud on the valves and in the intercooler, but it's nice to have a setup that works as well as it possibly can.
      See this is why a CC works(cold/hot = condense) but CC get hot after driving for a period of time, then what good is it unless you have screens/filters, which raises another problem, screens and filters are subject to clog and get congested with oil, inhibiting their ability to work well, or worse in winter if a clog filter freezes, bad things.

    19. 02-28-2012 01:30 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Kelion View Post
      Yes, basically same purpose as CC, just better for reasons I've already gone into, plus it is more effective.(See my reply to Krieger)



      See this is why a CC works(cold/hot = condense) but CC get hot after driving for a period of time, then what good is it unless you have screens/filters, which raises another problem, screens and filters are subject to clog and get congested with oil, inhibiting their ability to work well, or worse in winter if a clog filter freezes, bad things.
      Almost all catch cans have a screen or a filter. 42dd's can can be broken down so you can see exactly what's inside of it. IIRC it's 2 layers of perforated stainless sheet which is standard and what I used in my can. Perforated sheet isn'g going to clog or freeze, the perforated holes are too big for that but the sheet should be doubled up about 1/4" apart so it's effective. Take a look at 42DD's site and you'll see what I mean, it's hard to imagine the screens freezing or even staying frozen when warm PCV gasses are running through it.

      Even if the Crawford took 100% of the oil out of the PCV gasses, there would still be plenty of crap building up on the valves for reasons I explained previously. There's just nothing that any AOS can do about it.

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      03-01-2012 01:08 AM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by blackvento36 View Post
      Even if the Crawford took 100% of the oil out of the PCV gasses, there would still be plenty of crap building up on the valves for reasons I explained previously. There's just nothing that any AOS can do about it.
      You keep bringing this up as if there is a solution to it period. A CC and a AOS both take oil moisture etc out of intake charge, I created this thread for those in cold climates that want an alternative to a CC, also those that don't want the hassle of a CC. Both a CC and an AOS(if both are designed properly) will clean the air intake charge keeping junk from entering, however an AOS and Crawfords specifically are designed for COLD WEATHER. so you keep bringing up valve seal issues they aren't related to intake charge, well they are but not as far as intake air charge(and contaminates in it) go. Of you have leaky seals, you have leaky seals there is not fix aside from replacing the seals!

      I created this thread hoping to gain interest in people who don't like/don't want a CC, personally I think hey if it works good for you but they are a humongous PITA in my opinion, for that reason I have contacted people willing to do the R&D and create a high quality AOS.



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      03-05-2012 11:12 PM #21
      we already have fuel dilution problems... you want to siphon more fuel and water into our oil?

      i dont get it.

      spend time with motors and talk to people if you dont have experience... this tech your talking about is not that great. If it was, dont you think every other scene would jump all over it? The boxer crowd must work hard to keep that **** hidden i guess...

      but, i digress, you want it, go for it. you wont stop build up. you will probably accelerate bearing wear. give it a go.
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    22. 03-06-2012 02:43 AM #22
      Why does everything have to come in a "kit" anyway?

      Crawford sells a "universal" AOS according to their site, and almost every company that makes a catch can for out cars sells the PCV plate seperately. Fab up your PCV lines, coolant hoses, and your oil return and you're set.

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      03-06-2012 11:56 AM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by blackvento36 View Post
      Why does everything have to come in a "kit" anyway?

      Crawford sells a "universal" AOS according to their site, and almost every company that makes a catch can for out cars sells the PCV plate seperately. Fab up your PCV lines, coolant hoses, and your oil return and you're set.
      Kits are easily installed and you don't have to go hunting for parts are ghetto-rigging something. Yes they do sell universal AOS, but where would I run my return? There no way in hell I'm going to start drilling holes in my oil pan or anywhere else for that matter. Crawford is willing to do the R&D so that it is a quick install and effective.

      Quote Originally Posted by Krieger View Post
      we already have fuel dilution problems... you want to siphon more fuel and water into our oil?

      i dont get it.

      spend time with motors...
      Explain to me the fuel dilution problems...I genuinely don't know about them for this engine...and as for water in oil....there is moisture everywhere in the air you and your engine breathes, there is no getting around that but it's ok...your engine will get warm and poof water + heat/pressure = steam, which escapes into atmosphere so moisture in oil is a non-issue. And before you claim to think I know nothing about "motors" you need to think about your wording a motor is electric, an engine is internal combustion, I don't claim to know everything about engines(or motors for that matter ) but I do know how stuff works.



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    24. 03-06-2012 01:06 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Kelion View Post
      Kits are easily installed and you don't have to go hunting for parts are ghetto-rigging something. Yes they do sell universal AOS, but where would I run my return?
      Where would they run the return? I'm sure they won't be sending you a new oil pan with a fitting installed. If you really want the setup you shold probably learn how to "ghetto rig" cuz I don't see this generating enough interest to warrant their time.


      Quote Originally Posted by Kelion View Post
      ...... And before you claim to think I know nothing about "motors" you need to think about your wording a motor is electric, an engine is internal combustion, I don't claim to know everything about engines(or motors for that matter ) but I do know how stuff works.
      uhhh.........

      Motor
      mo·tor/ˈmōtər/
      Noun:
      A machine, esp. one powered by electricity or internal combustion, that supplies motive power for a vehicle or for some other device...

    25. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      03-06-2012 02:09 PM #25
      the point of your system your talking about is to "filter" out the heavy crap and collect it and send it either into the pan or into the combustion chamber.

      either way, its not good. fuel mixed with oil accelerates bearing wear, so dumping more and more back into the pan is NOT a good idea. some naturally gets into our oil via the rings and leaks into the HPFP supposedly, but purposefulness putting it back into the pan just sounds retarded.

      a catch can filters stuff out, collects it, and allows the oem system to keep working to a point. this system would require a new oil pan or tapping this one (not smart), and returning goop to the pan... or dried goop to the intake valves!

      either way, its not a good idea, at least not from what ive seen people do with them on other platforms.
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      03-10-2012 09:30 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Krieger View Post
      the point of your system your talking about is to "filter" out the heavy crap and collect it and send it either into the pan or into the combustion chamber.

      either way, its not good. fuel mixed with oil accelerates bearing wear, so dumping more and more back into the pan is NOT a good idea. some naturally gets into our oil via the rings and leaks into the HPFP supposedly, but purposefulness putting it back into the pan just sounds retarded.

      a catch can filters stuff out, collects it, and allows the oem system to keep working to a point. this system would require a new oil pan or tapping this one (not smart), and returning goop to the pan... or dried goop to the intake valves!

      either way, its not a good idea, at least not from what ive seen people do with them on other platforms.
      It sounds like you aren't very confident about this fuel dilution theory. Fuel is much lighter than oil, would likely stay suspended in the air and be vented, no problem in that. Remember the Crawford AOS stays heated, so anything that is a vapor would stay a vapor it wouldn't condense.
      Also it would return oil to the pan. If you're oil is dirty you're oil is dirty it doesn't add anything extra to the pan just what was in the oil in the first place.


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      03-10-2012 09:32 PM #27
      To the interested parties I got an email from Crawford asking me about how much interest I have garnered. They also would like to look at a car for a little R&D and would like to know if there is someone in the San Diego area would be willing to do so.


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    28. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      03-11-2012 02:38 PM #28
      just look up fuel dilution... the fuel will re-condense during its travels... its not going to just burn off... if it did, the stock system and catch cans would be amazing. they aren't. never will be.

      Quote Originally Posted by Kelion View Post
      It sounds like you aren't very confident about this fuel dilution theory. Fuel is much lighter than oil, would likely stay suspended in the air and be vented, no problem in that. Remember the Crawford AOS stays heated, so anything that is a vapor would stay a vapor it wouldn't condense.
      Also it would return oil to the pan. If you're oil is dirty you're oil is dirty it doesn't add anything extra to the pan just what was in the oil in the first place.


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