Euro R springs

[Jouko Haapanen]

I sense some confusion between spring length and spring rate.

Volkswagen specifies the spring rate (in N/mm, or lbs/in for those inclined to use imperial measures) to match the axle masses of the car, depending on the equipment and the resultant mass (or weight, as we like to call it). This allows all the variations in the car to behave identically, regardless of equipment (and thus, weight).

The length of the spring is not related to the spring rate. Hypothetically, a European Golf R with full equipment and a curb weight almost identical to a North American Golf R will have the very same spring rate as the NA vehicle. Howver, the length of the spring is different, and the North American Golf will have a slightly increased ride height.

Assuming identical spring rates and that the small variation in ride height didn't change the geometry (i.e. roll centre) significantly, the driver will not be able to discern the difference between the European and the North American Golf R.

[autofi]

Yes the euro rear spring has a thicker wire and slightly shorter length which confirms the different combos load versus height etc.

[Rgento]

Add me to the list of people who will be following with great interest. I'm absolutely in love with the perfection of the H&R Sport drop, but concerned about ill effects on handling, ride, and durability, in that order.....

[TLud]

Add me to the list of people who will be following with great interest. I'm absolutely in love with the perfection of the H&R Sport drop, but concerned about ill effects on handling, ride, and durability, in that order.....

One thing I already know is that the Euro springs will NOT give the perfect ride height that I'm looking for. I think the H&R Sport drop looks just right; the Euro springs will not give me that. However, I'm absolutely unwilling to sacrifice the other things you mentioned to get that "perfect" ride height. IMO, you have to compromise on one or the other. I've gone both routes on previous vehicles. For the R, I choose to compromise on the aesthetics and stay close to OEM ride, handling and durability.

I make this point again (and I'm not referring to you specifically here, Rgento) because I don't want anyone thinking that this is some kind of miracle solution and then they see pics and become disappointed that it doesn't give them as much drop as they would like.

[autofi]

One thing I already know is that the Euro springs will NOT give the perfect ride height that I'm looking for. I think the H&R Sport drop looks just right; the Euro springs will not give me that. However, I'm absolutely unwilling to sacrifice the other things you mentioned to get that "perfect" ride height. IMO, you have to compromise on one or the other. I've gone both routes on previous vehicles. For the R, I choose to compromise on the aesthetics and stay close to OEM ride, handling and durability.

I make this point again (and I'm not referring to you specifically here, Rgento) because I don't want anyone thinking that this is some kind of miracle solution and then they see pics and become disappointed that it doesn't give them as much drop as they would like.

Ditto when you look at the front control arm it is basically parallel to the ground already so the 10 mm lower with the euro spring is at the limit before affecting roll center.

[takmanR]

I agree with autofi on the control arms. They don't look like they can tolerate the car being lowered too much more, or the angles would be pointed upward. This could possibly affect the ride much more than we may think. I agree with Tlud in wanting to get a better look without compromising the ride too much. The car rides pretty good right out of the box. The guys spent a lot of time in Germany perfecting the suspension so it would drive the way it does.

[ook]

Tlud, on behalf of the rest of us Texans, bless you and good luck.. We are all counting on you.
(mine's here now too, so I can legit say that)

Oh heck yeah, you should have told me! Congrats man! I hope it wasn't a 2door! I see Zaino in our future.

[ook]

We'll definitely have to meet up. I'm up in DFW fairly frequently (2 of my brothers live up there). When I first got the R, I too was initially a little underwhelmed by the power, having come from a much faster car with the grunt of a V8. Less than 500 miles later, I had my R flashed with APR's stage 1 tune, and I became a very happy man. Although I'll be going at least Stage 1+, I'd be completely content to keep my car as is.



Great call about getting the spring rates analyzed. I know just the place. Draco, the largest custom spring manufacturer in the world is right here in Houston, and I'm sure they can help me out.





Lol. You'll probably hear the results straight from me before I even post them up here.

I just had my Stage 1+ done this weekend! I'm pretty excited to pick her up on monday and see how it feels. I't would be cool to meet up with a bunch of fellow Texans sometime! Hit me up with a PM if you are going to be in town.

[takmanR]

Tlud, any updates when you will be getting your euro springs. We are in Dallas, still trying to figure out how to lower the car and maintain a good ride. We also independently posted how the larger tires of the 19s help decrease the fender gap above the tires by being a larger size. A .4 plus a .2 makes .6 inches in decreased gap, which is significant for the cost of the euro springs. Just enough to make it look like the euro pictures.

You may want to look on the VWR UK website and read about their products. Interesting comments on their springs and why not to use even theirs on the 4 motion cars. They want us to use their coilovers?? Looks like they are working with APR as mentioned in earlier posts.

http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/pa...spring-kit-22/

[scottgpt88]

I just had my Stage 1+ done this weekend! I'm pretty excited to pick her up on monday and see how it feels. I't would be cool to meet up with a bunch of fellow Texans sometime! Hit me up with a PM if you are going to be in town.

Lmk how your impressions, getting mine done in 2 weeks !

[Siliconrane]

I just had my Stage 1+ done this weekend! I'm pretty excited to pick her up on monday and see how it feels. I't would be cool to meet up with a bunch of fellow Texans sometime! Hit me up with a PM if you are going to be in town.

How do you like your Stage 1+?

Have you had problems getting the grin off your face yet?

[ThisIsTheLifeForMe]

Good thread! Won't find JR32 and his cronies in threads like these (contributing)

[scottgpt88]

Good thread! Won't find JR32 and his cronies in threads like these (contributing)

Lol I find this amusing ! Soo true !

[TLud]

I just had my Stage 1+ done this weekend! I'm pretty excited to pick her up on monday and see how it feels. I't would be cool to meet up with a bunch of fellow Texans sometime! Hit me up with a PM if you are going to be in town.

I'll let you know next time I'm in Dallas. Hopefully, by then I'll have wheels, springs, and Stage 1+.

Tlud, any updates when you will be getting your euro springs. We are in Dallas, still trying to figure out how to lower the car and maintain a good ride. We also independently posted how the larger tires of the 19s help decrease the fender gap above the tires by being a larger size. A .4 plus a .2 makes .6 inches in decreased gap, which is significant for the cost of the euro springs. Just enough to make it look like the euro pictures.

You may want to look on the VWR UK website and read about their products. Interesting comments on their springs and why not to use even theirs on the 4 motion cars. They want us to use their coilovers?? Looks like they are working with APR as mentioned in earlier posts.

http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/pa...spring-kit-22/

Exactly. We're on the same page. The springs are coming from Germany, so it looks like second half of March. I will get them analyzed before putting them on my car; and then once on, I will get the stockers analyzed. I'll also take my own pictures and measurements of the suspension before and after.

Thanks to the link to the VWR page. That page actually causes me to give them some credit. First, they published their spring specs, so that you actually know what you're putting on your car. Second, at the cost of additional sales, they specifically note not to use their springs on cars with 4motion. The warning was a little vague, however, so I think I will shoot them an e-mail with a few questions to get some more input.

[provenflipper]

Tlud, any updates when you will be getting your euro springs. We are in Dallas, still trying to figure out how to lower the car and maintain a good ride. We also independently posted how the larger tires of the 19s help decrease the fender gap above the tires by being a larger size. A .4 plus a .2 makes .6 inches in decreased gap, which is significant for the cost of the euro springs. Just enough to make it look like the euro pictures.

You may want to look on the VWR UK website and read about their products. Interesting comments on their springs and why not to use even theirs on the 4 motion cars. They want us to use their coilovers?? Looks like they are working with APR as mentioned in earlier posts.

http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/pa...spring-kit-22/

Looks like I might be waiting for APR to make their announcement before I buy coils...

[takmanR]

Neuspeed lists their springs with the spring rates of 330 front and 340 rear that lower the car 25mm. Don't what the drop is from though: a golf, a GTI, or what. At any rate this should bring the car down a bit even if our Rs start a little lower the the others. The springs appear to be linear like the factory's and not progressive, so there should be good spring travel available. Does anyone have any experience with these springs from the Mk6 forum or otherwise.

[webcrawlr]

Curious why you choose the 235/35/19 route instead of the 235/40/18 route? The only difference is you are making up the .2 inch radius increase in rim instead of sidewall. Staying at the 18 inch rim keeps the weight closer to the center which is preferred and also gives you much more lightweight options for rims and a ton more tire options!

[TLud]

Neuspeed lists their springs with the spring rates of 330 front and 340 rear that lower the car 25mm. Don't what the drop is from though: a golf, a GTI, or what. At any rate this should bring the car down a bit even if our Rs start a little lower the the others. The springs appear to be linear like the factory's and not progressive, so there should be good spring travel available. Does anyone have any experience with these springs from the Mk6 forum or otherwise.

It would be great to get some additional data on the Neuspeed sport springs, so if anyone goes this route, it would be nice to see some additional measurements. Looking into them a little more myself, here are a few thoughts:

1. These springs are a one-size-fits-all solution that Neuspeed recommends for a number of different cars with very different characteristics. That's not necessarily a problem if we're talking coil overs because those can be adjusted for each car. Springs are a different story. This alone would rule these out for me.

2. These springs will lower the car by about 1 inch. That's not quite as severe a drop as other springs out there, but it's likely more than enough to throw the suspension geometry out of whack based on what you and others have already observed re the control arms.

3. Based on the rates that you posted, these springs are signficantly stiffer than the VWR springs, and I suspect even more stiff than the Euro R springs.

Curious why you choose the 235/35/19 route instead of the 235/40/18 route? The only difference is you are making up the .2 inch radius increase in rim instead of sidewall. Staying at the 18 inch rim keeps the weight closer to the center which is preferred and also gives you much more lightweight options for rims and a ton more tire options!

Good question, and this was something I gave a lot of thought to and have posted about elsewhere. There is no denying that, all other things being equal, 18" wheels will be lighter, less expensive (both in terms of wheels and tires), and offer more tire options than 19" wheels. The taller sidewalls of the 235/40/18's will also offer a slightly better ride quality (although I will appreciate the decrease in lateral movement under heavy cornering with the 235/35/19's).

I admit elsewhere that there is no good functional reason for going with 19" wheels, and that my choice is strictly aesthetics. However, by going with a lightweight forged wheel, the weight penalty is pretty minimal. So, although I could find a 1-3 lb. lighter wheel in an 18" size, the new wheels/tires will still be MUCH lighter than the stock setup by a good 8 pounds per corner (I plan to measure this when they come in). I also was able to find all of the tire options I was interested in the 235/35/19 size. For most of us, wheels play a dual role in terms of performance and aesthetics. I didn't feel that I was significantly compromising performance to get the aesthetics I wanted.

Also, switching from a 235/40/18 tire to a 235/35/19 tire does not simply redistribute radial distance from the sidewall to the rim. If you run the numbers, the 235/35/19 tire has a larger OD (by 0.4") than the 235/40/18 tire. That 0.4" difference in diameter will close the wheel/fender gap by approximately 0.2".

[TLud]

Still waiting on the Euro springs to ship. I'll keep everyone posted as soon as they arrive and try to move as quickly as I can when they do.

Also, a very, very kind and knowledgeable forum member has been helping me behind the scenes with making sure I get the right springs and with getting part numbers and torque values for all the associated hardware.

On the latter issue, he pointed out the importance of replacing the hardware (nuts and bolts) associated with the shocks and struts when changing out the springs because modern VAG cars use torque-to-yield hardware that stretches when the assigned value has been met. So, I'm also in the process of gathering up that hardware, which is very inexpensive.

[SCHWAB0]

keep us posted and where you got the stuff from as well.

Maybe we can get a group buy organized for the Euro OEM R Springs. Please post some pre/post pictures of the setup!

[TLud]

keep us posted and where you got the stuff from as well.

Maybe we can get a group buy organized for the Euro OEM R Springs. Please post some pre/post pictures of the setup!

I'll definitely be posting all relevant info and, trust me, I'll be thoroughly documenting before and after pictures of the setup, both from a suspension geometry perspective and a wheel gap perspective.

[SCHWAB0]

I'll definitely be posting all relevant info and, trust me, I'll be thoroughly documenting before and after pictures of the setup, both from a suspension geometry perspective and a wheel gap perspective.

[takmanR]

Does anyone know what the stock spring rates are for the Golf R, a euro Golf R, or for that matter for a GTI, or even a stock Golf. The more data we have the better we might be able to pick the right springs or coil overs for our cars.

Again note that I have already talked to H&R and they will not give out spring rates. Their springs are progressive, so their will be an initial soft rate followed by a firmer rate when the progressive coil are fully compressed.

The neuspeeds are generic, but do we know how firm they are compared to other stock springs?

VWR compares their coilovers to the ride of a 911. They claim much R&D went into choosing the spring rates and shock valving. Wonder how much these will cost when APR brings them over here to the US. It appears that the two companies are working together on the Golf R.

[TLud]

Does anyone know what the stock spring rates are for the Golf R, a euro Golf R, or for that matter for a GTI, or even a stock Golf. The more data we have the better we might be able to pick the right springs or coil overs for our cars.

As I've noted above, measuring these numbers is one part of what I plan to do with this project. This isn't just me throwing on some springs and seeing how much lower the car sits. I agree that it would be helpful to get data on other products as well.



Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk

[webcrawlr]

Good question, and this was something I gave a lot of thought to and have posted about elsewhere. There is no denying that, all other things being equal, 18" wheels will be lighter, less expensive (both in terms of wheels and tires), and offer more tire options than 19" wheels. The taller sidewalls of the 235/40/18's will also offer a slightly better ride quality (although I will appreciate the decrease in lateral movement under heavy cornering with the 235/35/19's).

I admit elsewhere that there is no good functional reason for going with 19" wheels, and that my choice is strictly aesthetics. However, by going with a lightweight forged wheel, the weight penalty is pretty minimal. So, although I could find a 1-3 lb. lighter wheel in an 18" size, the new wheels/tires will still be MUCH lighter than the stock setup by a good 8 pounds per corner (I plan to measure this when they come in). I also was able to find all of the tire options I was interested in the 235/35/19 size. For most of us, wheels play a dual role in terms of performance and aesthetics. I didn't feel that I was significantly compromising performance to get the aesthetics I wanted.

Also, switching from a 235/40/18 tire to a 235/35/19 tire does not simply redistribute radial distance from the sidewall to the rim. If you run the numbers, the 235/35/19 tire has a larger OD (by 0.4") than the 235/40/18 tire. That 0.4" difference in diameter will close the wheel/fender gap by approximately 0.2".

The better ride quality would really depend on the tire. If selecting a max performance summer like the one below the massively increased sidewall stiffness would more than likely offset any additional movement you would have gotten over the stock no season. I'd imagine the difference in 235/40/18 to 235/35/19 in the same tire below would be a different story though. For us northerners going to a 3.2 inch sidewall isn't the best idea with all the potholes and other road obstacles winter and freeze/thaws create. Looks good though!

You might want to re-run your numbers. The OD of a 235/35/19 tire is .1" greater than a 235/40/18 tire. You can use the RE-11 as a reference. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....=Potenza+RE-11

[TLud]

The better ride quality would really depend on the tire. If selecting a max performance summer like the one below the massively increased sidewall stiffness would more than likely offset any additional movement you would have gotten over the stock no season. I'd imagine the difference in 235/40/18 to 235/35/19 in the same tire below would be a different story though. For us northerners going to a 3.2 inch sidewall isn't the best idea with all the potholes and other road obstacles winter and freeze/thaws create. Looks good though!

You might want to re-run your numbers. The OD of a 235/35/19 tire is .1" greater than a 235/40/18 tire. You can use the RE-11 as a reference. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....=Potenza+RE-11

For some reason, I had stuck in my head that you were referring to the stock size 225/40/18. The 235/35/19 has an OD that is 0.4" greater than the stock 225/40/18, which closes the stock gap by 0.2", which is what I was referring to above. The 235/40/18 has an OD that is about 0.3" greater than the stock setup (closing the gap by 0.15"), so you are correct that the difference between those two non-OEM choices is negligible. The best choice between those two setups will depend on a lot of factors, including road quality, tire prices and availability (especially if you track your car), aesthetics, and weight/performance.

While we certainly have some bad roads in parts of Houston, it's not like what you see up in the Northeast. Also, I'm going with a very light and very strong one-piece forged wheel, which will help to mitigate the downsides of going to a 19" wheel.

You're also right about tire choice and sidewall stiffness. I've been a big fan of the Pilot Super Sports (ran them on my M3), but my recent research turned up really good things about the ContiSportContact 5Ps (balance of comfort and performance), so I've got a set of those on order.

[webcrawlr]

For some reason, I had stuck in my head that you were referring to the stock size 225/40/18. The 235/35/19 has an OD that is 0.4" greater than the stock 225/40/18, which closes the stock gap by 0.2", which is what I was referring to above. The 235/40/18 has an OD that is about 0.3" greater than the stock setup (closing the gap by 0.15"), so you are correct that the difference between those two non-OEM choices is negligible. The best choice between those two setups will depend on a lot of factors, including road quality, tire prices and availability (especially if you track your car), aesthetics, and weight/performance.

While we certainly have some bad roads in parts of Houston, it's not like what you see up in the Northeast. Also, I'm going with a very light and very strong one-piece forged wheel, which will help to mitigate the downsides of going to a 19" wheel.

You're also right about tire choice and sidewall stiffness. I've been a big fan of the Pilot Super Sports (ran them on my M3), but my recent research turned up really good things about the ContiSportContact 5Ps (balance of comfort and performance), so I've got a set of those on order.

I saw your setup in another thread. While I don't know the $$ you spent on those beasts for sure I can estimate using the ones tirerack sells. They better be nice for that price!

I think like most people I'm looking forward to your thoughts. I was looking at the PSS as well.

[TLud]

I saw your setup in another thread. While I don't know the $$ you spent on those beasts for sure I can estimate using the ones tirerack sells. They better be nice for that price!

I think like most people I'm looking forward to your thoughts. I was looking at the PSS as well.

Yes, certainly not everyone is willing to spend that kind of money on wheels. I'll be the first to admit that there is no rational way to justify it. That said, I think they are going to look and perform up to my very high expectations.


The PSS are excellent tires. Great all-rounders; definitely the best balance between DD and performance that I've tried. I haven't experienced any street tires that beat the PSS's performance in the dry. The wet performance is also excellent, although there are better wet performers out there. As stiff as the sidewalls are, they are surprisingly comfortable in daily driving. Small-bump compliance is excellent. Large bumps or potholes are felt more than with other max summer performance tires I've used, but nothing intolerable. They are not the quietest tire, but they are definitely quieter than most of the max summer performance tires I've tried.

To keep this thread focused, I'll post reviews of the ContiSportContact 5Ps elsewhere, probably in my build thread.

[ook]

Lmk how your impressions, getting mine done in 2 weeks !

How do you like your Stage 1+?

Have you had problems getting the grin off your face yet?

Don't want to threadjack TLud but I will say that Stage 1+ has pasted a perma-grin on my head and I can't scrape it off!

Took a couple guys from the Vortex for a short spin this aft and I think we were all grinning by the end.

Cheers,

[Hitman]

Don't want to threadjack TLud but I will say that Stage 1+ has pasted a perma-grin on my head and I can't scrape it off!

Took a couple guys from the Vortex for a short spin this aft and I think we were all grinning by the end.

Cheers,

as one of those guys.. I can agree, and attest to the wonders of 1+. now I need to do it too.

[provenflipper]

Please post information on the suspension hardware when you have it all gathered. I would like to replace all relevant pieces as well.

[JLCVDUB]

During my 3,500 mile 2-week stint with the R, I really enjoyed the suspension and how it felt. It's much more stiff than my 11 WRX and has way less body-roll.. I have a ton of confidence in this car which kinda scares me once I get a set of light weight wheels and PSS rubber on. Even though the car is much lower than pictures show, I find myself wanting to drop about 1''-1.5''... I've never been one to go the cheap route and get springs.. I've always done it the legit way and went with coils or a nice shock/spring setup. So I'm extremely satisfied with the stock suspension aside from the aesthetics of it, but am I cutting a corner but dropping it with springs? I think so... I probably won't track the car for a long time. One other option is going with the Koni Yellow Adjustables and the spring setup.. I'm just so stuck and I can't figure out what I want to do for the life of me. I plan on changing out all the bushings, sways, links and if I ever found LCAs I would do it although it probably won't be necessary for me to even do it.


Blahhhhhhh

[TLud]

Please post information on the suspension hardware when you have it all gathered. I would like to replace all relevant pieces as well.

Will do.

During my 3,500 mile 2-week stint with the R, I really enjoyed the suspension and how it felt. It's much more stiff than my 11 WRX and has way less body-roll.. I have a ton of confidence in this car which kinda scares me once I get a set of light weight wheels and PSS rubber on. Even though the car is much lower than pictures show, I find myself wanting to drop about 1''-1.5''... I've never been one to go the cheap route and get springs.. I've always done it the legit way and went with coils or a nice shock/spring setup. So I'm extremely satisfied with the stock suspension aside from the aesthetics of it, but am I cutting a corner but dropping it with springs? I think so... I probably won't track the car for a long time. One other option is going with the Koni Yellow Adjustables and the spring setup.. I'm just so stuck and I can't figure out what I want to do for the life of me. I plan on changing out all the bushings, sways, links and if I ever found LCAs I would do it although it probably won't be necessary for me to even do it.


Blahhhhhhh

Cutting corners with springs alone? In general, I would say yes, for obvious reasons. But the Euro R springs were designed by VW specifically for this car with this suspension geometry and with these dampers. That's what makes this option so appealing to me - in fact, the only option I'm willing to consider at this point.

[GTI-Corrado]

When will tech ed step in?

[droopy1592]

When will tech ed step in?

He already did in another R thread.